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[Web] Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks!ANN.lu
Posted on 11-Jan-2004 14:28 GMT by Lukas Stehlik356 comments
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The best Amiga ever - Pegasos II G4 1GHz!
See the benchmark results on AmiGOD2 benchmark page.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 301 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 13-Jan-2004 18:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 292 (samface):
Or, forget what I just said and let's just conclude that it's a very small world you live in. :-P
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 302 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 13-Jan-2004 18:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 294 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
The topic was about speed, you know. Yes, I used the word "best", but of course it was meant to be in the same context as the "best" used by the author of this news article, which refered to those benchmarks.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 303 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 13-Jan-2004 18:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 298 (BrianK):
>please continue to argue and point your rips elsewhere.

So, only people who praise the word "Amiga" as a philosophy of life rather than a trademark is allowed on ANN.lu? Oh my, you really do sound like a priest banning someone from his church for blasphemy... :-P
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 304 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by BrianK on 13-Jan-2004 18:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 303 (samface):
Samface made up lies!
'So, only people who praise the word "Amiga" as a philosophy of life rather than a trademark is allowed on ANN.lu? Oh my, you really do sound like a priest banning someone from his church for blasphemy... :-P'

That's not what I said. What I said is you believe Amiga is a trademark others believe it's a philosophy. We've defined the arguement. There's no common ground between the 2 sets. I haven't banned anyone. Nor I have I said you couldn't speak your peace of mind. What I have said is leave me out.

So, again politely - leave me out.
Also a bit harsher - STOP the name calling and personal attacks.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 305 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 13-Jan-2004 18:54 GMT
Let's just all do this mind game, you have this famous player Figo, who is one of the best football players in existence, and let's just pretend that Figo, just for the sake of argumentation:

a) uses rastas;
b) had born in Angola (Africa) so he posess full knowledge of African culture;
c) has that cool style generally associated with blacks;

This player had won the best football player title, but can we say that he is the best black football player in the world just because he had acquired all this things normally associated with black culture? (this is an way over-extrapolation, take it in mind)

No, it wouldn’t because he would be still white.. (please don't ask me though questions like: Mickael Jackson is black or white tipe, because I wouldn't know the answer) just the same, Pegasos is a Pegasos, it doesn't turn magically into an Amiga just because someone wish for.

It doesn't run AmigaOS applications anymore then Amithlon.

/*which would still be more Amiga, if not only because it was Amiga branded, as for having been shipped with actul AmigaOS code, kickstart ad infinitum... if not for the part of H&P not actually paying Amiga IPs and all that Bernd Meyer & Harald Frank's mess)

What it does do, is doing it in a different way...

Amiga isn't an Amiga because it behaves the same way, just like Linux isn't Unix either. One thing Linus (and all the folks behind Linux momentum) has done well was separating themselves from Unix while being at the same time 'close at heart', but they actually had gather identity and tied to it, respect, which for the moment lacks on MorphOS (the identity part).

I don't know if all this fights had also happened in unix and linux land, but I do hope so, if not only because we would be looking a bit more do normal if we would had something to compare...

- Hey! Why are they fighting if both are Amigans? Aren't they supposed to be on the same side?
- Oh... that! This has happened before in Linux and Unix crowds, it's an usual and quite beneficial thing to do amongst others Operating Systems... like Unix and Linux, do you see at where Linux is now!?
- Oh! Is that so? Now I'm more relieved!
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 306 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 13-Jan-2004 18:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 300 (Eva):
Eva! Eva! There's a flying saucer above your head!!!
...... beep!
WRONG!
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 307 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 13-Jan-2004 19:51 GMT
Jeepers.

You know, I can't decide who is more stupid :

samface, or the people who persist in having the same argument with him over and over and over again.

Please, for the love of all that's holy : SHUT UP!

Thank you.

Gregg
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 308 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 13-Jan-2004 22:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 306 (pixie):
Eva! Eva! There's a flying saucer above your head!!!
...... beep!
WRONG!
_________

Ehehe unable to add a wise answer Pixie as alwayz, right? If your answer is this .. we can understand why you are continuing to suffer ...
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 309 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Paul Gadd on 13-Jan-2004 22:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 293 (BrianK):
Sorry Brian, comment was for PIR and the other people what claim MorphOS is illegal, and as for wishing people dead, that is just low PIR).
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 310 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by BrianK on 14-Jan-2004 00:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 309 (Paul Gadd):
Thanks Paul!
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 311 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 14-Jan-2004 01:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 310 (BrianK):
Ya know, this thread is hilarious now that I took a day off from reading it and look over it now.

I am trying hard not to laugh my ass off over the claims and counterclaims.

However, I'm getting my Peg 1 up and running again, so I'll run this benchmark. Would be interesting to see, considering that I run SCSI.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 312 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Jan-2004 03:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 274 (samface):
walkman/discman
terms used to denote a portable tape or cd player, actually Sony trademarks but popularly accepted as generic term.
cut the crap samface you fool no-one with your assertions of knowledge and delusions of rationality.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 313 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 14-Jan-2004 05:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 312 (Anonymous):
The claim that "Amiga" would be a generic term for anything Amiga-alike is rather weak considering the size of the Pegasos community vs the world wide brand recognition of Amiga. In the minds of millions, there is no such thing as a generic term for anything similar to an Amiga because they've never heard of such thing as an Amiga clone. You see, just like the Macintosh, the Amiga always was and still is a propriety platform. I think you will have a hard time trying to change this conception of the Amiga platform in the rest of the world, although I know Genesi is trying with every means possible.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 314 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 14-Jan-2004 07:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 299 (Eva):
Have a cookie

Cheers
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 315 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by -D- on 14-Jan-2004 09:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (-D-):
Back to the topic, it looks like we now have an AmiGOD result from the
Pegasos I G4 (thanks Gunne, Kozz and Luky!:)). Check out those memory
scores between the Peg G4 and The Peg II G4...veeeeeeeeeery interesting...;)
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 316 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Jan-2004 10:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 313 (samface):
This is hilarious. You just spent like 200 posts rambling that Amiga is nothing but a trademark without any inherent meaning (ie. whatever happens to become labelled "Amiga"TM by a trademark owner is an Amiga, and only that is an Amiga), and that anyone who thinks the trademark should signify something more is irrational and subjective.

And now you do a 180 degree turn, and say that the trademark indeed HAS a meaning, by claiming that it signifies a proprietary [I presume you mean to the TM licensor/licensee] platform in a Mac-like fashion.
(Which it obviously doesn't, if one's supposed to pretend that the Terons currently carrying the trademark are Amigas because of your previous "as long as is carries the trademark" definition.)

Face it, the last Amigas were designed a decade ago and there won't be any more.
Now quit bickering, all of ya.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 317 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Treke on 14-Jan-2004 11:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 292 (samface):
It was a joke ;-)
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 318 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 14-Jan-2004 11:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 316 (Anonymous):
>And now you do a 180 degree turn, and say that the trademark indeed HAS a
>meaning, by claiming that it signifies a proprietary [I presume you mean to
>the TM licensor/licensee] platform in a Mac-like fashion.

No, saying that Amiga is a trademark and a proprietary platform is NOT a contradiction. Amiga is the trademark for this proprietary platform and the fact that only Amiga licensed products are a part of this proprietary platform is what makes it proprietary. The Amiga, unlike IBM-PC clones, is not an open hardware standard nor is it a generic term for anything that looks or feels like the real thing. The Amiga platform is just as propriety as the Mac, both the hardware and OS is closed and you will need a license in order to become officially supported by the owner of the intellectual property for the platform.

>(Which it obviously doesn't, if one's supposed to pretend that the Terons
>currently carrying the trademark are Amigas because of your previous "as long
>as is carries the trademark" definition.)

The trademark and the platform it signifies is a an intellectual property owned by Amiga Inc. The fact that third party manufacturers are able to license their product as an Amiga product doesn't change this.

>Face it, the last Amigas were designed a decade ago and there won't be any
>more.

Eyetech's license for the Amiga trademark is not a fiction of my mind, only your idea that this new generation of Amiga hardware and software would not be Amiga products is. I'm sorry but I cannot do anything besides concluding that you're denying facts because it doesn't comply with your personal conception of what is Amiga.

>Now quit bickering, all of ya.

As long as you make statements and arguments, expect replies.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 319 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 14-Jan-2004 12:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 313 (samface):
*looks at his Macintosh, a UMAX S900*

what were you saying there Sam?
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 320 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 14-Jan-2004 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 308 (Eva):
Ehehe unable to add a wise answer Pixie as alwayz, right? If your answer is this .. we can understand why you are continuing to suffer ...

You know, to make a wise answer, first one have to make a good question, and that was not the case (Q:We are simply telling that AmigaOne have nothing to do with Amiga Pixie.)I just pointed what to me was an obvious thing... that you were wrong, AmigaONE is Amiga, if not for the sake of it, like A1200 was an Amiga despite not being equal to A500, as iMac is still a Mac despite not having a 58k processor and other legacy, it just is, even if it had x86 processor...

The next thing you would be starting to pretend is that is you making the wise answers...

But the big question is... why am I in suffering. Maybe in your little and odd world, but not in mine.

If you have not anything usefull to ssay just don't say anything at all...
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 321 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 14-Jan-2004 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 308 (Eva):
Ehehe unable to add a wise answer Pixie as alwayz, right? If your answer is this .. we can understand why you are continuing to suffer ...

You know, to make a wise answer, first one have to make a good question, and that was not the case (Q:We are simply telling that AmigaOne have nothing to do with Amiga Pixie.)I just pointed what to me was an obvious thing... that you were wrong, AmigaONE is Amiga, if not for the sake of it, like A1200 was an Amiga despite not being equal to A500, as iMac is still a Mac despite not having a 58k processor and other legacy, it just is, even if it had x86 processor...

The next thing you would be starting to pretend is that is you making the wise answers...

But the big question is... why am I in suffering. Maybe in your little and odd world, but not in mine.

If you have not anything usefull to say just don't say anything at all...
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 322 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 14-Jan-2004 13:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 319 (Nate Downes):
The UMAX was a MacOS licensed computer, just like the AmigaOne is an AmigaOS licensed computer. The possibility to have a third party product licensed does not make the trademark an open standard nor a generic term. On the contrary, it confirms that the platform is proprietary. You where saying?
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 323 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 14-Jan-2004 13:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 321 (pixie):
58k processor being 68k, obviously
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 324 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 14-Jan-2004 14:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 322 (samface):
Sammy, get over it, NO ONE gives a damn about whether you think it's ok to use "Amiga" as a term identifying a concept, and doesn't matter if you think that's delusional, even you should know what does it mean when one person thinks the rest of the world is delusional, sammy!
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 325 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 14-Jan-2004 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 324 (Fabio Alemagna):
>Sammy, get over it, NO ONE gives a damn about whether you think it's ok to
>use "Amiga" as a term identifying a concept, and doesn't matter if you think
>that's delusional,

The issue has never been about what I think is OK or not, nor did I state what I think about the word "Amiga" as a concept. I was merely pointing out that the "Amiga concept" was something abstract and a very individual conception, while Amiga Inc.'s ownership of the Amiga trademark and intellectual property is a fact (as in not my opinion). It is also a fact that there are only a few hundred people that think of the Pegasos as an Amiga while there is millions of people that recognize the Amiga as a propriety platform and has never heard of such thing as an Amiga clone.

> even you should know what does it mean when one person
>thinks the rest of the world is delusional, sammy!

I guess you live in a very small world then. :-P
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 326 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 14-Jan-2004 14:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 324 (Fabio Alemagna):
Look at what was said:
The best Amiga ever - Pegasos II G4 1GHz

What concept do you find in here? It's plain wrong to say it that way, it just ain't one and that's about it!

One thing is refering to the Amiga concept or putting "" on it, saying it's Amiga-like, or that it feels like an Amiga, another is using the term like this.

More and more I find the blue side more tied to the name... geesh
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 327 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Lukas Stehlik on 14-Jan-2004 15:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 326 (pixie):
See my comment 61.

If I had known it, I would have put quotes in the main message.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 328 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Lukas Stehlik on 14-Jan-2004 15:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 327 (Lukas Stehlik):
I am sorry, it's comment 63:

Pegasos G3 is my new fast "Amiga".
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 329 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 14-Jan-2004 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Andy):
"Here we go again we the same old "Pegasos is not an Amiga" old argument, of course it aint an Amiga but i personally do not care of a brand name."

But the logic would be, if you don't care about it, you don't need use it... after all, one shouldn't talk about who has no interest at.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 330 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 14-Jan-2004 16:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 328 (Lukas Stehlik):
It's such a massive thread... I shurelly had read it but, or have I forgot it or didn't even had associated with your name.

Anyway, I was just pointing at what Fabio had said. You obviously had no real intention of making any stirr with this new, had I bought either one (Pegasos or A1), I would had done the same thing, share my experience with others amigans..
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 331 of 356ANN.lu
In reply to Comment 328 (Lukas Stehlik):
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: insult
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 332 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by DoomMaster on 14-Jan-2004 21:31 GMT
"Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: insult"

Har! Har!

I just called something that gives me the same 'feeling' as MorphOS by the name MorphOS. What's wrong with that?

_DoomMaster_
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 333 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 15-Jan-2004 00:59 GMT
Samface only rubs salt into the wound that has been applied to this
community, and he's damn right to do so. I don't know if he's doing
this consciously or due to lower (neurotic) instincts, but accusing
someone of doing the right things for the wrong reasons leads to
nowhere.

I personally don't mind if a Pegasos is an Amiga at this moment,
because it's also a silent Linux server, which is a thing nobody can
dispute. The reasons for I've put MorphOS aside were that I personally
couldn't bear the inner pains of having to decide whether this is an
Amiga or not, while so many people would disagree with me. Note,
however, that I wouldn't buy an AmigaOne or install OS4 for the same
reasons.

I'd like to get back to this issue once we're talking about the same
thing when someone mentions the A-Word. Be honest to yourself, WE ALL
ALIKE DO SUFFER from this split. Pushing on the weak spot like Samface
is a good thing to expose it. "The fastest Amiga ever" was a
determined provocation, and the author gets what he deserves. No, it's
not an Amiga, this is undecided.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 334 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 15-Jan-2004 06:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 312 (Anonymous):
Why not try labelling "Microsoft Windows" on Linux distro and see what happens?
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 335 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 15-Jan-2004 07:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 333 (Oppressor):
>I'd like to get back to this issue once we're talking about the same
>thing when someone mentions the A-Word.

Exactly what I've been trying to say. I mean, the Amiga as a concept is abstract and highly dependant on the individuals own subjective point of view, which is why I try to get people to understand that it's better to use, atleast in a public fora such as this, a purely objective definition for the sake of mutual understanding.

The only problem though, is that alot of people has put so much more significance into the term Amiga that they feel they are "betraying" their "faith" if they degrade it into a simple trademark.

This is the church of Amiga and it's extremely difficult to argue on an objective level with a fundamentalist. :-/
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 336 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 15-Jan-2004 08:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 335 (samface):
> [...] I try to get people to understand that it's better to use, atleast in a public fora such as this, a purely objective definition for the sake of mutual understanding.

Sounds reasonable, but may I ask what keeps you, personally, from regarding a Pegasos an Amiga? There must be some kind of offer, as suggesting people who bought a Pegasos to wait for OS4 is clearly no solution to nothing.

How do we get around this? MorphOS was there while the classic line seemed abandoned by
the name holder, and before development was underway for OS4, this must be at least acknowledged and taken into consideration. Boycotting OS4 would be the least in my opinion.

The absolutely fatal blow will occur when the OS4 and MorphOS SDKs start to diverge. We may be almost that far, and that will be the end to it all, including any development for OS4. Also, how will there ever be any development if both companies are confined to never add any extensions to OS3.1? I'm really curious to see the OS4 SDK, as it will be the milestone that seperates death from prolonged dying...

I think we can agree upon that, if there is no further development, a Pegasos would be just as good a runtime environment for OS3.1 applications as OS4 or UAE.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 337 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 15-Jan-2004 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 336 (Oppressor):
>> [...] I try to get people to understand that it's better to use, atleast in
>>a public fora such as this, a purely objective definition for the sake of
>>mutual understanding.
>
>Sounds reasonable, but may I ask what keeps you, personally, from regarding a >Pegasos an Amiga?

There is no reason what so ever beyond the notion that Amiga would be a term for anything "Amiga-like". I'm sorry but that's a rather weak argument and really doesn't stand up against objective reasoning.

> There must be some kind of offer, as suggesting people who bought a Pegasos
>to wait for OS4 is clearly no solution to nothing.

Offer? You mean like a practical solution in order to get your Pegasos accepted as an Amiga? Unless you can get it licensed, there is no solution. Buy an AmigaOne.

>How do we get around this? MorphOS was there while the classic line seemed
>abandoned by the name holder, and before development was underway for OS4,
>this must be at least acknowledged and taken into consideration. Boycotting
>OS4 would be the least in my opinion.

Why? I mean, when Amiga Inc. finally listens to the community's objections and does the right thing, is this how you reward them? Have you forgotten that Amiga Inc. even suggested making MorphOS the official continuation of the classic AmigaOS product line and that this would have been a reality today if it wasn't for Bill Buck's and Ralph Schmidt's big egoes/greed? I could even give you quotes from official statements by Amiga Inc. that the Pegasos will be supported by AmigaOS4. Sadly enough, it was prematurely stated since the negotiations with bPlan was still ongoing at that time, but atleast it shows that Amiga Inc. never had the intentions of leaving out the Pegasos nor MorphOS in the cold.

For better or worse, the reasons for why the Pegasos will end up as a different and incompatible computer platform to the Amiga is not because Amiga Inc. is differentiating their products from the rest of the Amiga industry, it's because bPlan decided that the Amiga market was not important enough for them to cooperate and decided to go their own way. The ability for Pegasos users to run classic Amiga software in an Amiga-like environment is only something for making the transition from the Amiga platform to their new platform a bit more convinient, nothing more. If you believe that this feature makes this new hardware and OS a continuation of the classic product line, you are only deluding yourself.

>The absolutely fatal blow will occur when the OS4 and MorphOS SDKs start to
>diverge. We may be almost that far, and that will be the end to it all,
>including any development for OS4.

What makes you so confident that AmigaOS4 software market would be so dependent of software developed by MorphOS users? A more critical issue would be, how is the MorphOS software industry going to advance without support from the Amiga software industry? I'd say few developers are prepared to sacrifice support for the official Amiga software industry in favor of the even more exotic niche platform called the Pegasos.

> Also, how will there ever be any
>development if both companies are confined to never add any extensions to
>OS3.1?

The AmigaOS3.1 API is dead because it cannot be significantly advanced beyond it's current state without breaking compatibility. For more modern functions, the developers will have to choose from supporting either MorphOS, AmigaOS4 or both.

>I'm really curious to see the OS4 SDK, as it will be the milestone that
>seperates death from prolonged dying...

Perhaps you will find this thread over at Amigaworld.net interesting then:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=2744&forum=15&18

I must say, Hyperion really are doing all those things that should have been done so many years ago. Once we have AmigaOS4, it's not so much about catching up with the rest of the industry anymore. =)

>I think we can agree upon that, if there is no further development, a Pegasos
>would be just as good a runtime environment for OS3.1 applications as OS4 or
>UAE.

Sure, it's suits just as fine as any other classic Amiga emulating solution, but that's also the ONLY relevance with the term Amiga that the Pegasos has and we don't call a PC with WinUAE an Amiga, now do we?
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 338 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 15-Jan-2004 18:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 337 (samface):
> Offer? You mean like a practical solution in order to get your
> Pegasos accepted as an Amiga? Unless you can get it licensed, there is
> no solution. Buy an AmigaOne.

Neither, and I have a PPC-powered PC running Linux already. Pegasos
and AmigaOne are completely exchangable brands for the matter at hand;
what I do care for are people like you and me, who may find themselves
in the urgent need for software some day.

> Why? I mean, when Amiga Inc. finally listens to the community's
> objections and does the right thing, is this how you reward them?

I don't have to reward them further, as I've developed for the SDK and
backed their figure of 3000 registered developers already. Since then
I'm watching this community in stagnancy waiting for a product
competing with the Pegasos and MorphOS. I didn't tell Amiga Inc. to
launch OS4, as there is no market for such a product in my opinion.

> Have you forgotten that Amiga Inc. even suggested making MorphOS the
> official continuation of the classic AmigaOS product line and that
> this would have been a reality today if it wasn't for Bill Buck's and
> Ralph Schmidt's big egoes/greed?

I didn't know that. That would be a pity, really. :(

> The ability for Pegasos users to run classic Amiga software
> in an Amiga-like environment is only something for making the
> transition from the Amiga platform to their new platform a bit more
> convinient, nothing more.

I think you're right, because Genesi is a market entity that must lay
out strategies for its survival and ongoing development. People
started buying at Genesi, regardless of them being just a
clone-producer. But, if these people have fallen behind your horizon
and OS4 is delayed just another year or two, you may find yourself in
a niche of just yourself and OS4.

> If you believe that this feature makes this new hardware and OS a
> continuation of the classic product line, you are only deluding
> yourself.

No, I personally don't need a PPC continuation of the OS3.1 API. This
would be just the least common denominator for building upon at the
moment. Given the amount of software that is being shed out daily,
this cannot be sacrificed lightheartedly.

> What makes you so confident that AmigaOS4 software market would be
> so dependent of software developed by MorphOS users? A more critical
> issue would be, how is the MorphOS software industry going to advance
> without support from the Amiga software industry? [...]
> I'd say few developers are prepared to sacrifice support for the
> official Amiga software industry in favor of the even more exotic
> niche platform called the Pegasos.

Please explain what exactly you mean by "official Amiga software
industry", especially regarding the "official" part. Do the few
remaining bedroom programmers need an Amiga sticker now? I hoped I was
through this all already, by buying the SDK, signing an NDA,
betatesting the OS4 TCP stack and all... :)

I'm pretty confident that the total number of developers is small, and
that ALL of them are mutually dependent on each other. I've yet to
find a developer that would count so clearly in either of the camps as
your reasoning demands. Without the Pegasos we'd be debating over a
zero-entity niche, so please be a bit more forgiving with them.

> The AmigaOS3.1 API is dead because it cannot be significantly
> advanced beyond it's current state without breaking compatibility.
> For more modern functions, the developers will have to choose from
> supporting either MorphOS, AmigaOS4 or both.

I don't quite understand why it couldn't be extended to any desired
level, but new software is urgently needed, sure. As long as this
Amiga/Genesi issue is unresolved, it doesn't happen.

> Sure, it's suits just as fine as any other classic Amiga emulating
> solution, but that's also the ONLY relevance with the term Amiga that
> the Pegasos has and we don't call a PC with WinUAE an Amiga, now do
> we?

That's all the relevance there is.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 339 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 15-Jan-2004 23:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 337 (samface):
"Have you forgotten that Amiga Inc. even suggested making MorphOS the official continuation of the classic AmigaOS product line and that this would have been a reality today if it wasn't for Bill Buck's and Ralph Schmidt's big egoes/greed?"

Oh, that's really rich coming from you samface .. you're always so particular about your statements being "facts" .. well, are you really sure you know the facts behind this one? I seriously doubt so, so I suggest you shut up about the matter and stop trying to make AInc the hero and Ralph Schmidt the bad guy (FYI, Bill Buck was not even in the picture at the time this deal was being "negociated")...


- CISC
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 340 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 16-Jan-2004 07:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 339 (Sigbjørn Skjæret):
Well, I think that I do got a pretty good picture about it since I even discussed this matter with Ralph Schmidt himself. He talked about Amiga Inc.'s terms beeing "unreasonable", which is a claim that is contradicting the fact that neither Eyetech or Hyperion had any problems with them. I mean, if they find the terms unreasonable while others don't, the cause for why the terms was not reasonable must be specificly related to Ralph Schmidt and bPlan rather than the terms themselves. Furthermore, R.S. and bPlan didn't show much cooperativeness in order to make such cooperation possible either. I mean, Amiga Inc. made a proposal, but was there any counter-proposal from bPlan? AFAIK, none what so ever.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 341 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 16-Jan-2004 07:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 339 (Sigbjørn Skjæret):
>Bill Buck was not even in the picture at the time this deal was
>being "negociated"

I doubt that. You really think bPlan declined Amiga Inc.'s proposal without a back up plan? I'd say there is alot more to this story than the eye can tell...
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 342 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 16-Jan-2004 07:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 338 (Oppressor):
I guess we can agree that the Pegasos is not an Amiga then.

If you want to discuss any of these issues further, just drop me a mail. The same goes for you CISC. I think we've been dragging out on this thread far enough, don't you think? :-P
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 343 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 16-Jan-2004 11:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 342 (samface):
> If you want to discuss any of these issues further, just drop me a
> mail. The same goes for you CISC. I think we've been dragging out on
> this thread far enough, don't you think? :-P

No, just the opposite. We've just recently started, and I'd like to
further discuss things in the public rather than in conspiracy
circles.

Particularly unresolved to me is what in Amigaland made labels,
stickers and brands more important than people to you, and what this
official Amiga software industry is all about. Of course, I'd also
like to know everything about these Amiga/Genesi negotiations, but
let's discuss this in the public, and only there.

We may keep this open until the next major flamefest, though. I'm
busy this weekend. :)
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 344 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 16-Jan-2004 11:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 343 (Oppressor):
>We've just recently started, and I'd like to
>further discuss things in the public rather than in conspiracy
>circles.

That's perfectly OK with me. I was merely trying to show some respect for those complaining at me for "trolling" about these issues and beeing the cause of massive 100+ comment threads.

>Particularly unresolved to me is what in Amigaland made labels,
>stickers and brands more important than people to you, and what this
>official Amiga software industry is all about.

Labels, stickers and brands are of course not more important than the people behind them. I'm just strongly opposed to the idea that we should be divided and fight against each other for bread crumbs instead of joining our forces in order to lunch a massive assault on the entire bread loaf.

This was the original idea when Amiga Inc. bought Gateways Amiga assets back in 1999 and still is as of today. Basicly every major key player on the Amiga market was in on it until bPlan suddenly decided that it would be better to go seperate ways. Those companies who stayed and made the compromises neccessary in order to make this joint effort a reality, is Eyetech, Hyperion and of course Amiga Inc. themselves. We should also not forget about all the individuals who are helping these companies in this effort on a completely voluntary basis.

You see, the former bPlan and Thendic-France (ie Genesi) is more than just a competing alternative, it's an effort in direct opposition to the Amiga cause. That is the major reason for why I categorize them as any other platform alternative rather than an Amiga alternative. They're supporting the Amiga plaform just as much as the PC or the Mac, even worse since they are providing means to make the transition from the Amiga platform to their platform more convinient.

>Of course, I'd also like to know everything about these Amiga/Genesi
>negotiations, but let's discuss this in the public, and only there.

Don't ask me about the details, because I wouldn't know. However, I've been exchanging a few words with both Bill Buck and Ralph Schmidt about these issues which atleast makes me qualified as a witness to their standpoint in the matter.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 345 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 16-Jan-2004 13:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 340 (samface):
>He talked about Amiga Inc.'s terms beeing "unreasonable", which is a claim that is
> contradicting the fact that neither Eyetech or Hyperion had any problems with them.

Who said that those are under the same terms ?
From what I gathered:
a)AInc wanted a huge upfront payment.
b)AInc wanted to keep unshared ownership of all IP
c)"Someone" wanted them to drop CGX for P96 (which was offcourse plain-stupid as the
former was allready PPC-native at that time).
d)AInc wanted to decide on which HW it would run.

For Hyperion:
a) obviously not true (that part had to be played by the costumers)
b) also not true (AInc has the right to buy it back, but still than they don't own it).
c) with CGX allready taken, P96 was the only option left.
d) lets don't go there ....

For Eyetech:
Well they had their licence long before bPlan even came into the picture, and the fact that
Alan actually believed that the dead-duck-design by Escena would ever fly shows how much
he knows about "resonable".

AInc had lost their chance with bPlan, H&P ran away over the non-working A1, leaving AInc
in a position where they had to agree more or less to any terms.

Looking back over the past 2.5 years of AInc stumbling from desaster to desater, I can only
attest that dropping them was the smartets thing R.S. ever did.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 346 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 16-Jan-2004 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 345 (Kronos):
The way you're putting this is that Amiga Inc.'s licensing terms were
determined to be unacceptable for bPlan. The reasons for this would be
beyond my understanding, except for that Amiga Inc. were payed to do
this. Maybe by Eyetech?

Amiga Inc. are surely a bunch of highly incompetent people, but are
they evil as well? Who is "someone" and what are your conclusions?

Well, of course this may be pure speculation, but I would like to
pour some oil into the fire to keep it running. :)
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 347 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 16-Jan-2004 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 345 (Kronos):
>AInc had lost their chance with bPlan, H&P ran away over the non-working A1,
>leaving AInc in a position where they had to agree more or less to any terms.

Now this is where your theory doesn't add up. I mean, at first Amiga Inc. wanted to drop development for the classic Amiga OS product line because it simply wasn't going to be worth it when considering the cost for such huge project vs the income from the sales to such small market. However, when it turns out that there are companies left in the Amiga market with the resources and determination to take over the development of this product line, Amiga Inc. decided, why not?

Now you start talking about it like Amiga Inc. would be in a desperate position and that they would have to agree to whatever terms offered to them? I'm sorry, but if Eyetech and Hyperion wouldn't have stayed with Amiga Inc. on Amiga Inc.'s terms, Amiga Inc. would have simply done nothing about it and then gone back to their initial plan of focusing all their resources on the core product of their business; the AmigaDE. It would have meant a clean cut from the classic Amiga product line rather than the plan for a gradual replacement that we have today, which would probably also mean a much longer wait for new products for us classic Amiga users.

Anyway, while this theory of yours may have some form of truth to it, most of it simply doesn't add up. If Hyperion got more favorable terms in their offer from Amiga Inc. than bPlan, it was probably because Hyperion managed to negotiate those terms with Amiga Inc. rather than because Amiga Inc. would be desperate. I'm quite sure bPlan could have got the same terms if they just wanted to.
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 348 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 16-Jan-2004 14:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 346 (Oppressor):
>Amiga Inc. are surely a bunch of highly incompetent people, but are
>they evil as well?

And you base this assumption about their competence on?
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 349 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Oppressor on 16-Jan-2004 14:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 347 (samface):
> [...] at first Amiga Inc. wanted to drop development for the classic
> Amiga OS product line because it simply wasn't going to be worth it
> when considering the cost for such huge project vs the income from the
> sales to such small market.

These were the good times when Amiga Inc. showed slight indiciations
for reason and understanding. What could've changed their once-correct
estimation? MorphOS, Pegasos? Not really, according to your claims
that this was a totally different, unrelated product. :)

> I'm sorry, but if Eyetech and Hyperion wouldn't have stayed
> with Amiga Inc. on Amiga Inc.'s terms, Amiga Inc. would have simply
> done nothing about it and then gone back to their initial plan of
> focusing all their resources on the core product of their business;
> the AmigaDE.

That would have done us all a great favor. I was never interested in a
follow-up to the classic line. I was ripped off by Amiga Inc. with the
SDK, and I've put a hell of work into this vision, which was the one
and only viable business plan this company had. Why did they turn their
back to me?

But there's another side of this medal. I was especially bitter about
individuals from bPlan (probably Ralph Schmidt, but I may be wrong),
because some individuals publicly claimed the DE was crap, and told
people this has nothing to do with Amiga, wah wah. To my
understanding, it was the only true vision that might have followed
the Amiga hertitage, market-wise and in any other respect. Live and
let live, especially the second part wasn't one of the big strengths
of these individuals at this time. Couldn't it be that Amiga Inc. was
sick about these people?
Pegasos II G4 1GHz benchmarks! : Comment 350 of 356ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 16-Jan-2004 15:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 347 (samface):
1. AInc only turned back to AOS when they found out that all their grand plans of an DE/intent
based OS were just based on false assuptions (like the possibilty to add MP to it).
2. The DE wasn't going anywhere in terms of a pre-installed user-base, leaving AInc with little to
no income.
3. They recognize that their is still money to be made on AOS.
4. They think they hold all the good cards, and play a game of poker.
5. bPlan (and also H&P) have no interest in what the see as game which has them riden down
as loosers from start.
6. AInc is out of options, and realize that they have to step down a bit.
7. They negotiate with Hyperion (rumour says they also tried other before).
8. They come to an agreement that pretty much means that Hyperion has all the rights to OS4.

Also note that AInc never ever invested a single dime into OS4 or the A1, while they had no
problem cashing in on pre-payments/coupons twice (and long before there was anything to
pre-pay for).

About negoting terms:
There a points where you can negotiate, and there are points where it would just be a waste
of time since the other side seems to be living on another planet.
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