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[News] Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit!ANN.lu
Posted on 23-Feb-2004 18:45 GMT by Rich Woods350 comments
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Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit. Judge Lasnik's Decision On the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit can be found HERE HERE
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 1 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Rich Woods on 23-Feb-2004 17:48 GMT
Opps - might be a little confusing -

There are 2 documents amigafinal.pdf and amigafinal1.pdf

So hit both HERE ('s) to get each document.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 2 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by IanS on 23-Feb-2004 18:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Rich Woods):
So it was a summary judgement and NOT on merit of the case?

Cheers, Ian
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 3 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 18:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (IanS):
Not according to the second page, where it describes the evidense used to support the courts decision. They obviously thought it was merited.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 4 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 23-Feb-2004 18:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (IanS):
> So it was a summary judgement

Yes, Amiga Inc failed to participate through counsel, and has neither opposed plaintiffs' motion for summary judgment nor presented evidence of intent that would preclude a finding in plaintffs' favor.

> and NOT on merit of the case?

Amiga Inc had **PLENTY** of chances to present "evidence of intent", but they didn't, so it was simply *not possible* to judge "on merit of the case" (to use your wording). This has been a long process and Amiga Inc has been granted a lot of extra time to be able to fix their problems. Somewhere someone has to draw a line.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 5 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 18:28 GMT
30 days for delivering AmigaDE for Pegasos? Cool. It's nice to have a judge taking an interest in speedy development. Now couldn't we get a judge that orders Mozilla for Pegasos in 90 days? (I'm extra generous here ;)
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 6 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 23-Feb-2004 18:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
Please, read more carefully.. It's not time-limit to do actual coding. it's 30 days is only for delivering enough goodes that Genesi may start their porting...
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 7 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Paul H on 23-Feb-2004 18:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (JoannaK):
What exactly do Amiga Inc have to produce? The current state of DE? The DE player? Does it cover everything Amiga Inc has written for Amiga DE? (The papers don't really tell to much).
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 8 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 23-Feb-2004 18:50 GMT
thanks for the court doc's Rich. It is an interesting milestone in this never ending saga.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 9 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 19:10 GMT
From the looks, all of BBRV's statements today and Friday are way, way, way, way beyond what the judge ordered. There is no other way to put this, but simply that Bill Buck lied....again.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 10 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by news on 23-Feb-2004 19:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
"all of BBRV's statements today and Friday are way, way, way, way beyond what the judge ordered. There is no other way to put this, but simply that Bill Buck lied....again."

Care to elaborate and specify where exactly he lied?
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 11 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 19:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (news):
About everything?
AmigaOS and AmigaDE haven't got much to do with each other.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 12 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 19:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
According to statements by Bill and Fleecy, AmigaOS and AmigaDE are to combine into one upgrade path.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 13 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Rich Woods on 23-Feb-2004 19:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (T_Bone):
Their own words have come back to haunt them.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 14 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Mr. Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 19:49 GMT
Looks like Amiga, Inc. has just lost Amiga DE. It's now Thendic Electronic Components GmbH's toy. Which means no DE integration into AmigaOS.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 15 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 23-Feb-2004 19:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Mr. Anonymous):
"Which means no DE integration into AmigaOS."

That would be a very good thing, IMO.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 16 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 19:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Rich Woods):
Lol! Like that hasn't happened before :D
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 17 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 20:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Rich Woods):
>> AmigaOS and AmigaDE are to combine into one upgrade path.

I think the important words there are "are to" or better "were to".

My guess is there is nothing in the contract giving BBRV the right to dictate the devlopement path of AmigaDE. But I don't have any idea for sure.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 18 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 20:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Agima):
Those arn't BBRV's words... it was Bill and Fleecy who claimed this was the path.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 19 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 20:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (T_Bone):
>>Those arn't BBRV's words... it was Bill and Fleecy who claimed this was the path.

I'm just saying that it's Bill and Fleecy's product and they choose what the final path will be regardless of what they said it might be. I'm saying the upgrade path for AmigaDE was not written in any contract.

Really what I'm saying is that I don't think there is anything saying AmigaInc can't change the plans of what AmigaDE will become. They can change their mind twice a day of what the future plans are if they want.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 20 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 20:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
lol, let's see if he can also order Adobe Premiere for AmigaOS4 in less than 2 months ;)
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 21 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 20:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (news):
He always lies, dude, where have you been the past 10 years?
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 22 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 20:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Rich Woods):
Why else would Buck be interested other than the name? He's a F*KING parasite.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 23 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 20:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Anonymous):
>>lol, let's see if he can also order Adobe Premiere for AmigaOS4 in less than 2 months ;)

The problem I see is that if AmigaInc. doesn't (or refusesto) port DE or hand over the source code what are the damages to Genesi?? That Genesi doesn't 'get' to pay Amiga $$ for each copy sold with a product of theirs?
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 24 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 23-Feb-2004 20:37 GMT
It's funny to see that even if a valid information is released, nobody here can extract a valid information out of it...So please, stop talking and wait layers to give their opinion about this.Thanks.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 25 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 20:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Elwood):
>>So please, stop talking and wait layers to give their opinion about this.

If you don't want to read peoples opinions maybe you shouldn't read peoples opinions. Seems so simple doesn't it :)

Lawyers aren't the only people that can have an opinion and my guess is there are people in the Amiga community that are lot smarter than a lot of lawyers out there anway.

Having a law degree doesn't automatically meen that someone is intelligent.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 26 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 20:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Agima):
"
I'm just saying that it's Bill and Fleecy's product and they choose what the final path will be regardless of what they said it might be. I'm saying the upgrade path for AmigaDE was not written in any contract. "

But access to the upgrade path WAS written in the contract, and to this day Amiga Inc claim AmigaDE's upgrade path merges with AmigaOS.

Sure they could try to change that, but they'd be crippling both their products by doing so, however that'd be par for the course I guess :D
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 27 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 20:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Agima):
I agree :D
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 28 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 23-Feb-2004 21:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Anonymous):
>Why else would Buck be interested other than the name? He's a F*KING parasite.

Talking, of parasites, what do you call a company that buys the Amiga rights, and uses them to market a Java Virtual Machine, while at the same time declaring that AmigaOS is effectively dead, and that there will be no more development of it?

Amino Inc.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 29 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 21:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (smithy):
what? Since when a company is not allowed to decide what to do with their product? they can change their path a zillion times if they care.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 30 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 21:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Agima):
Amiga cannot hand the sourcecode because most of the stuff is property of TAO and they cannot just do that, if the judge is too dumb to understand that, maybe he needs to study a bit more.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 31 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 23-Feb-2004 21:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
What makes you think TAO wants to stand in the way of seeing their product spread?
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 32 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 23-Feb-2004 21:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
And why should the judge care about what AInc *can* do ? He wouldn't even been able
to set a minimal fine this way, as it is quite clear that AInc couldn't pay it .....

The judge can only look at the contracts, and agreements that those 2 made, and
inforce AInc to deliever what they have promised, but if AInc doesn't have full control
over the stuff they promised, it can hardly be blamed on either Genesi or the judge.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 33 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 21:29 GMT
umm, so the Judge asks Amiga Inc to do something they cant do (port AmigaDE to PegasOS) and AmigaDE sources cannot be given to Genesi either as its nothing more than , basically, glossed up TAOS's Intent system - all rights of that belong to TAOS!

noone wins. noone looks any better for it.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 34 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 21:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (T_Bone):
>Sure they could try to change that, but they'd be crippling both their products by doing so, however that'd be par for the course I guess :D

They can not change that in retrospect. When the license is interpreted before a judge, the understanding at the point of the agreement (in the past) is crucial. If the judge comes to the conclusion that the parties concerned were in agreement over the path of AmigaOS and agreed to join forces to develop "the future AmigaOS" in form of DE, that will be a problem for today's Amiga Inc. They can not just relabel the future of AmigaOS to get out of a license. I guess it's the private communication between the parties at that time that will decide the matter: was it just about a content layer separated from the OS or were both parties assuming that they were talking about the future path of AmigaOS? If I remember correctly, AmigaOS4 at that point in time was a non-entity and AmigaDE was in fact the bright shining future seen by Amiga Inc. Genesi could argue and possibly proof that they acted with that assessment as a background.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 35 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 21:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (T_Bone):
Well.. the mentioned executive upgrade (or what it was) mentions the integration of DE into OS4.2, which doesn't have to make OS4.2 part of the DE upgrade path. Sure, it's yet another platform for the DE to run at, but it could easily be made like an "external" addon to the OS, and ofcourse the DE won't change to support OS4.2, as that would be against the platform independent idea of the DE. I don't see how this can affect OS4.2, or at least it would be quite easy to avoid. (ie by having the de as a free addon application (maybe delivered with the os).
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 36 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 21:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
>>Amiga cannot hand the sourcecode because most of the stuff is property of TAO

My guess is Bill is entitled to, if anything at all, just the Amiga DE code currently in existance that Amiga Inc. actually own themselves. Nobody elses code (ie. TAO).

My guess would be that posting something on a website ie: "We plan on intergrating AmigaDE with Windows Longhorn" or some other OS they don't own or that doesn't even exist (ie. AmigaOS 4.2), doesn't give Buck access to that code either.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 37 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 21:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Anonymous):
Didn't Amiga Inc. also say that along with AmigaOS, WindowsOS, LinuxOS, etc. that AmigaDE would be integrated into Mac OS as well at some point?

Does Buck get Apples source code too then?
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 38 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 21:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
This will draw out. It's not possible to port AmigaDE to morphos (and therefore no reason to provide anything) as long as there's no intent on morphos, which Thendic won't get. Maybe there is a judgement, but it makes no sense, ainc is not able to deliver intent on some abitary OS.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 39 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Anonymous):
>>They can not just relabel the future of AmigaOS to get out of a license.

Is there anything in the contract stopping them from just dropping DE as product right now? It's dead anyway.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 40 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by T1k on 23-Feb-2004 21:46 GMT
Uhm...I've not been around for a while...what IS AmigaDE? None of the amiga-ppl I know has ever spoken of it...

T1k out
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 41 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Toner on 23-Feb-2004 22:47 GMT
All I get is access forbidden errors...
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 42 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Feb-2004 23:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Anonymous):
The parassite lives on another camp, dear Anon.
The camp that loose the first stage of the Saga.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 43 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Mr. Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 23:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
Morphos? The contract is for porting to hardware, from what I understand. So, that would be porting to the Pegagos. Which would seem pointless, considering what we've seen of AmigaDE.
If they want it on Morphos, they would have to talk to TAOS I would think for a port on which the AmigaDE extesions could then run.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 44 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 23-Feb-2004 23:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Agima):
Don't cry too much Agima lOL
Simply AMigaInc will pay its INSOLVENCE with other ways.
Theses way be Amiga trademark use licensed to Genesi.
Or something else more disturbing for people sure that "Hyperion contract about the exclusively license for AmigaOS TM" is not touchable.
Creditors of AmigaInc will use all possible ways to gain money with Amiga Inc Mcewan relics.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 45 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 23-Feb-2004 23:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Eva):
Eva open your eyes.

There's what... 4 games for Amiga DE and no new software in site?

What possible reason would Bill Buck want for having AmigaDE on the Peg?

He would want it because Eva nd MorphOS are both lame names and the name Amiga Rocks!

Bill Buck is just mean.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 46 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Feb-2004 23:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (T_Bone):
I see nothing in the judgement that covers future plans. I see nothing in the agreement that covers future plans.
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 47 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Feb-2004 00:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Anonymous):
Future upgrades to AmigaDE IS mentioned in the contract AFAIK!

But as everybody have been busy telling that AmigaDE is dead, who's to tell if there will ever be any updates to DE?

My guess is that Genesi will get an pretty old (but the newest) version of AmigaDE made for LinuxPPC (probably already done by TAO), something that is quite unusable for Genesi but that they have to pay for if they want to use it (and the trademarks).

Amiga will then probably "invent" a new Intent based system if they are still interested in that concept at all??
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 48 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by acg on 24-Feb-2004 00:38 GMT
The way it looks to me is that the judge, is saying that Amiga has to give
thendic source code for AmigaDE. This I assume would give Thendic the right
to integrate DE into Morphos or whatever.

It also looks like the judge basically gave the judgement ot the plaintiffs
because Amiga didn't fully participate, in their defense, 1) by not giving enough proof that Genesi was wrong, and 2,by not having a lawyer.

Either way...so what...Amiga, if it exists, can always change it's OS such that
AmigaDE as it stands now, will have compatability problems with its newer OS's such as 4.2 or 5.0....

this whole thing really reeks of poor contract writing between Amiga and thendic, and it also seems Morphos is wasting it's time trying to hammer Amiga,
point...if AMiga DE is just a JAVA virtual machine, why doesn't Morphos just implement Java? or partner with TAO to get its own? So there is something more smelly going on.....

It seems to me that in the computer world now, since there is so much money and
control at risk, it is becoming like a cesspool.....as they say, with the big pieces rising to the top.....
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 49 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Ann on 24-Feb-2004 01:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Mr. Anonymous):
"Morphos? The contract is for porting to hardware, from what I understand. So, that would be porting to the Pegagos. Which would seem pointless, considering what we've seen of AmigaDE.
If they want it on Morphos, they would have to talk to TAOS I would think for a port on which the AmigaDE extesions could then run."

Nah, the Pegagos has to be up and running with Windows CE first. Then provided to Amiga to test out!
Judge Lasnik's Decision on the Thendic-Amiga Lawsuit! : Comment 50 of 350ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Feb-2004 02:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Agima):
>Is there anything in the contract stopping them from just dropping DE as product right now? It's dead anyway

There might be nothing to stop them from dropping AmigaDE now ("was just a plan") but would it help with respect to Genesi? Maybe not. Let's assume party A gets into agreement with party B do develop a terrific new platform, codename KillerComputer: one party's plan is to make the OS, the other party's plan is to make the hardware and license the OS. Some time later, party A decides they don't like the partner and want to get into bed with somebody else. Alas, they have signed the KillerComputer license re future plans. Would it be sufficient for them to declare the project canceled, drop the name and thus get out of a license and develop the AmigaOS3 successors with somebody else? If that was possible, anybody could get out of any license easily just by changing names: You have signed a license that allows Epic to distribute all future versions of your BadCars program? Renaming it to KillerCars won't get you of that license. In the case of Amiga Inc, it depends on what the understanding between both parties was back then. If the license was part of a master plan to develop the future of AmigaOS and that can be proofed, the air could get thin for Amiga Inc.
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