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[News] AmigaOne no on-board sound?ANN.lu
Posted on 06-Mar-2004 01:38 GMT by lawd135 comments
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Commenting a recent news item on amiga-news.de, Davy Wentzler of OS4 fame said the on-board sound of the AmigaOne does not work, furthermore explaining the chip is physically not present on AmigaOnes produced the last 9 months. Frank Gutschow said on 05-Mär-2004, 23:38: "Meines erachtens sollte definitiv wirklich ersteinmal der Onboard-Chip des AmigaOne unterstützt werden."

Davy Wentzler answered on 05-Mär-2004, 23:45: "I'm gonna say it once more: it doesn't work. There's even a big chance, the chip is not physically present anymore on boards manufactured in the past 9 months."

Will Eyetech exchange all defect and component missing AmigaOnes or will they refund users that received broken hardware?

AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 101 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 06-Mar-2004 20:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (Christophe Decanini):
Note that Apple’s 970(1) has yet to reach AMD64(C0,CG stepping)’s i/o bandwidth(2).

1. 1200Mhz(effective)
2. 1600Mhz(effective), after stepping CG, Hypertransport interconnects will be at 2000Mhz(effective).
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 102 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 06-Mar-2004 21:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Martin Blom):
With the latest Radeon driver it is not as much as it was before, but distortion problem is still there. PegII apparently is not suffering from the sound distortion.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 103 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 06-Mar-2004 21:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (Leif):
It has nothing to do with April.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 104 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 06-Mar-2004 21:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (itix):
Ah, thanks, hadnt installed it.
No crap sound now :)
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 105 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 06-Mar-2004 21:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 104 (Leif):
Ok, its just about tiny noticable if you really shuffle windows
around like a MAD man.. I dont plan on doing that too often though.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 106 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Blom on 06-Mar-2004 21:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 105 (Leif):
Looks like I should update my driver then. :-) Nice.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 107 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by NorthWay on 06-Mar-2004 21:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (Don Cox):
[Memory Protection]
>It was left out because the 68000 doesn't have a built in MMU, not to make life easier for games programmers.
>I am sure it would have been included if an MMU had been present.

I am not 100% sure of that.

The extra cost that would have been added if it was possible to select from both a 68K with and without MMU would have slimmed chances of it getting added.

The memory overhead of Resource Tracking was probably the biggest factor that made it not happen. You'd need something like "Owner", "List(next/prev)", and "Size" (hey, much like Mungwall - what a surprise). That is 16 bytes extra 'wasted' for every AllocMem() (or 12 for AllocVec()).
Remember that the OS was designed for a 128K machine (I think Mindwalker actually was designed to work with only 128K). Then Moore continued to be the law and 256K became the release size.

Now, if RT has a memory overhead, imagine what an protection with an MMU would need. Try to check the size of your average MMU table.
Oh, and how would you handle the different memory ownerships of the running processes? One table per task? Ouch! Multiply the number of tasks with the MMU table size. Still happy with 128K? 256K?

Separating memory spaces would have lots of consequences for the OS design too. Much of the OS calls actually run in the context of your own task and as such you would need to change to a user/supervisor model to enable the libraries to have private data that the tasks can't access.
How would you handle SetFunction()? Would you still change the jump target for all tasks?


There are many more such issues that more competent people than me have asked before.



But HEY! I really like one thing about AmigaOS and that is the single address space. There is some interesting research going on under the moniker SASOS for 64bit machines. A lot of Amiga thinking can make a comeback that way.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 108 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 06-Mar-2004 21:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (NorthWay):
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?SingleAddressSpaceOperatingSystem
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 109 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 06-Mar-2004 21:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (Megol):
Yes but disabling the internal audio chip and using a higher quality sound card (such as an SB Live! or Audigy) with all the added hardware features that are not present in the on-board chip will give you better quality sound.

---
Sam
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 110 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 06-Mar-2004 22:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Leif):
What a cool site. A love the relationalweenie bit. :)

---
Sam
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 111 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Frank Gutschow on 06-Mar-2004 23:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Davy Wentzler):
Davy:

I dont think we need drivers for 40 soundcards or more, 2 or 3 cards
for the different clientele are maybe enough ;-)
I'd rather think about the all-inclusive-Solution (the itx AmigaOne).
These small board imho shoud come with an onboard-codec.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 112 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Mar-2004 00:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Christophe Decanini):
>You are right that for a bigger size the Amigaone does not offer more features.>However there is a feature of the Amigaone I like: The CPU daughter card.>It can feat better in low profile cases. You are right, BUT the neccessary gfxcard makes it no better since Pegasos CPUcard probably isn't any higher than a low profile AGP card. It fits any standardmicroATX slim case. The advantage of the flat AOne really shines when you cometo use the Mini-ITX board.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 113 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Mar-2004 00:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (Christophe Decanini):
>Custom in a way that they have to be different for the PPC. Articia S is said to work with MIPS and x86, too. I think the AmigaOne even mayhave some jumpers...
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 114 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Mar-2004 00:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (Martin Blom):
>Hmm it does? Is there a driver update I don't know about or how did you make it work? The analog out works since day one here, the digital out doesn't with current MorphOS.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 115 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Mar-2004 00:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Martin Blom):
>And it doesn't sound like crap when you move windows? No, why should it?Has always been quite good with Voodoo3 and recent Radeon fix makes it ok withthese cards and accelerated 2D, too.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 116 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Mar-2004 00:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 101 (hammer):
Do you fall for the MHz myth again?
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 117 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 07-Mar-2004 03:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Don Cox):
"No they don't. We had just as much trouble with Buster as with Articia S.

And have you noticed how many revisions of the A2000 motherboard there are? And what about the timing problems on A1200s ?"

Well, if a mistake is made, it's up to the "in-house" engineers to resolve and redesign it to work properly. They probably were'nt given enough staff/resources, to have let it happen in the first place.

As for MAI making and selling a faulty board, there should be a class action lawsuit against them, to replace all of the boards they made that don't work, with working models.

Eyetech and bill buck (he used MAI made boards too, right? or just chips designed by them?) should have sued MAI into the ground.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 118 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 07-Mar-2004 07:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 116 (Anonymous):
>Do you fall for the MHz myth again?

Note that the post that have I posted was with the context of prerequisite knowledge for each of the products involve i.e. bandwidth in MB/s.

I welcome you to post the required information about PPC 970’s i/o bandwidth (in MB/s) which exceeds the low end AMD64 processor (Socket 754, e.g. memory i/o + Hyper transport links i/o). Note that I’m aware of the i/o bandwidth capability for each of said products.

The main point on contention is that, while PPC mobo’s catches up (e.g. Momentum’s PPC 970 development motherboard) the X86 world will just matches on to another standard.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 119 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 07-Mar-2004 07:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 118 (hammer):
Addendum;
For a modern PowerPC 970(SMP)based motherboard(evaluation only) refer to http://www.970eval.com/
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 120 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 07-Mar-2004 09:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Frank Gutschow):
"I dont think we need drivers for 40 soundcards or more, 2 or 3 cards
for the different clientele are maybe enough ;-)"

I disagree. If the AmigaOne is ever to be useful for musicians and composers, it must support as many sound cards as any other computer. People will always have a good reason for selecting a particular card, and they will not be pleased if it can only be used in Linux or not at all.

Result - give up on Amiga, use Mac or Windows.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 121 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 07-Mar-2004 09:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 117 (Atheist2):
"Eyetech and bill buck (he used MAI made boards too, right? or just chips designed by them?) should have sued MAI into the ground."

It would make more sense to sue VIA as they have more money.

However, I don't think you can sue in the computer trade when a product has bugs. Probably most large chips have bugs - CPUs certainly do. I think you will find that chips are sold on the basis of "while we make every attempt to remove bugs, the perfect functioning of our product cannot be guaranteed".

People decided to use PPC, against considerable advice. That puts you at the bleeding edge, using relatively untested hardware. If the AmigaOne and the Pegasos were standard-issue x86 boards, rebadged, there would be few problems.

You may feel that the advantages of using PPC make all these troubles worth while.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 122 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 07-Mar-2004 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Leif):
Interesting stuff, thanks for the link.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 123 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 07-Mar-2004 12:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Frank Gutschow):
As indeed it does, as was explained many times in this (remarkably sad and lame) thread that just makes people like me who are merely interested in the amiga just want to leave the current scene and forget all about it.

I think that the AmigaOne is a lame board, but not because of the northbridge. It is 1999 technology being sold at 2050 prices. The Pegasos2 is marginally better.

Hopefully chipsets for the 970 will be up to date and allow modern functionality to be integrated into upcoming motherboards. I'm talking about:

- PCI Express x16 (or at least AGP 8x)
- A couple of PCI Express x1 slots
- and 3 or 4 standard PCI slots
- Integrated SATA (4 ports)
- Integrated GigE Ethernet
- Integrated 5.1 channel audio
- USB2 and Firewire
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 124 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 07-Mar-2004 13:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (hammer):
Interesting link there. Thanks. Looks like the IBM PPC970 northbridge is available for general use now. I hope that someone makes use of it soon for an upcoming Amiga motherboard.

(I'm thinking single 970 + IBM northbridge + latest nVidia nForce2 southbridge)
That would get most of the stuff I was desiring in a system above. Mmm.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 125 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil on 07-Mar-2004 14:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Sam Smith):
This puts things into perspective, doesn't it?

"[consider] that a 64-bit address space, consumed at a rate of 100 megabytes per second, would last five thousand years."

64 bit _is_ a really huge number.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 126 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil on 07-Mar-2004 14:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Graham_nli):
Choosing any NVidia components doesn't sound like a good plan to me. These are the people who have binary only drivers for Linux, remember?
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 127 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Mar-2004 14:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Anonymous):
>>Custom in a way that they have to be different for the PPC.

>Articia S is said to work with MIPS and x86, too. I think the AmigaOne even may
>have some jumpers

I meant that it is one of the rare northbridge available for sale for building a PPC board.
I seriously doubt anyone would build an x86 mobo with it.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 128 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Framiga on 07-Mar-2004 14:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
I 100% agree. Onboard audio chip, are good for a BEEP.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 129 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 07-Mar-2004 15:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (Ole-Egil):
I thought of that after I posted it! Ah well, other companies with HyperTransport southbridges exist - AMD (8111, a bit old in the tooth though, maybe they will have an updated version soon) and ALI come to mind.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 130 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 07-Mar-2004 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 128 (Framiga):
Depends on the on-board audio chip.

Sadly the one in the ancient VIA 686b southbridge is not that advanced. It isn't really worth bothering with.

However integrated audio in modern chipsets, especially those from nVidia (SoundStorm) is pretty damned good.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 131 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Davy Wentzler on 07-Mar-2004 20:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (Anonymous):
> I dont think we need drivers for 40 soundcards or more, 2 or 3 cards
Well, too late for that! :-)
For the cheaper cards, just supporting the audio controller/codec will enable the use of 10 or more cards supporting it. This isn't true for the more complex pro cards though. And from what I hear from people, there IS a need for many different cards. People have different budgets and different needs. This becomes more and more clear in the 'pro' or home-studio segment.

>I'd rather think about the all-inclusive-Solution (the itx AmigaOne).
>These small board imho shoud come with an onboard-codec.
The microA1 comes with a CMI8738 which has been tested on LinuxPPC just fine. I have written a CMI8738 driver already, so I hope to be testing it soon on the board.

People shouldn't complain about too much support! :-)

Davy
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 132 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 08-Mar-2004 05:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (Ole-Egil):
>Choosing any NVidia components doesn't sound like a good plan to me. These >are the people who have binary only drivers for Linux, remember?

Note that there was an interview with NVIDIA’s PR in relation to PowerPC market; i.e. they indicated they are open to PowerPC core logic markets (e.g. Apple market) if it makes business sense for NVIDIA.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 133 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 08-Mar-2004 06:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Graham_nli):
>Interesting link there. Thanks. Looks like the IBM PPC970 northbridge is
>available for general use now.

I would not classify it as "general use now" since the board is evaluation status i.e. not intended for mainstream desktop end users e.g. notice the cost.

It would be nice they have product segmentation e.g.
1-way basic/value features,
1-way with ‘deluxe’ features,
1-way with ultra features,
2-way basic/value features,
2-way with ‘deluxe’ features,

>I hope that someone makes use of it soon for an upcoming Amiga motherboard.

I wonder IF Eyetech or Genesi is evaluating at this motherboard.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 134 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 08-Mar-2004 10:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (hammer):
I'd actually split the 2-way into Server and Desktop segments, not value and deluxe! Dual processor isn't really something that someone looking for value would go for!

It would be nice if IBM also have a single processor, single memory channel design though. You could make a nice small motherboard with a single 970, the northbridge, some DIMM slots and a HT southbridge.
AmigaOne no on-board sound? : Comment 135 of 135ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 on 08-Mar-2004 16:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Davy Wentzler):
>We have over 40 supported sound cards and more coming up, so it isn't that big of an issue.

Note that that statement doesn't mean "We have developed drivers for 40 different cards" as some seem to think...

Likely it's just amount of cards that are compatible with some drivers, that have been developed.

Nothing bad in that - There are many better things to do than try to support some rare, badly documented hardware, when equal (or better) hardware is already supported...
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