| GTK-Amiga : Comment 1 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 19-Mar-2004 09:56 GMT | | Make sure it only works on AmigaOS. I don't want that crap on MorphOS. Working with these GTK/GNOME people the past 5 years gave me enough pain for the rest of my life. I want to be different and want to use native apps with nice MUI toolkit. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 2 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by T_Bone on 19-Mar-2004 10:13 GMT | In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
> Make sure it only works on AmigaOS.
(sigh) |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 3 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Elwood on 19-Mar-2004 10:16 GMT | GUIs done with GTK are simply awful, they suck...
What about a GTK->Reaction wrapper then ? |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 4 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Mar-2004 10:26 GMT | In reply to Comment 3 (Elwood):
ROTFL!.. And ReAction is better? Please... Give me a break. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 5 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Graham_nli on 19-Mar-2004 10:27 GMT | I don't like GTK. Even the latest version is cludgy. GUIs simply look grim using it - it takes a real designer to get something looking good out.
OTOH, having it native will mean native ports of Gimp, Gnumeric, etc ... these would be quite handy, especially the latter.
As long as someone makes it pick up theme options from the native OS toolkit (Reaction / MUI) so it fits in well. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 6 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 19-Mar-2004 10:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 5 (Graham_nli):
> OTOH, having it native will mean native ports of Gimp, Gnumeric, etc ... these
> would be quite handy, especially the latter.
The latter requires GNOME and I bet my pants. You don't want to port or install 100mb of libraries only to get GNUMERIC running :) |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 7 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 19-Mar-2004 10:38 GMT | | This is very good news. I hope they'll eventually be able to get Evolution working on the Amigas. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 8 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Eva on 19-Mar-2004 10:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Sure! They will do the por ONLY for Aos4 ... so, prolly, in 2006 you will see some jumping ball (like DE demos) going around. LOL |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 9 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Mar-2004 11:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Let's just make sure it doesn't work on machines owned by anonymous instead.
Cheers |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 10 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 19-Mar-2004 11:38 GMT | In reply to Comment 7 (Ronald St-Maurice):
> This is very good news. I hope they'll eventually be able to get Evolution working on the Amigas.
Evolution requires GNOME. GTK+ is not enough here. To get the requirements for Evolution which is a full GNOME application you need to port the entire GNOME framework. This is a couple hundrets of megabytes of SourceCode and will result in 100-150 mb of libraries.. BEFORE YOU CAN RUN evolution.
So you should think about this again.
By the way, I was the anonymous #1 so please forgive me for that first reply but I was quite shocked once I read the headliner here. I participated for nearly 5 years to GTK+ and GNOME and a lot of the stuff these people are doing nowadays simply suck and that's the reason why I got interested in Amiga again. I even peeked to QNX for quite some time but saw that the people made a GTK port there as well only to get these halfassed GNOME apps running on it. The entire philosphy of QNX was taken with this and made it just another Linux/BSD/Dawrin Kernel box with GNOME running on top of it. The question then should be why worrying for AmigaOS or MorphOS when you do better installing Linux alone then and forget the rest ? |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 11 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 19-Mar-2004 12:17 GMT | In reply to Comment 10 (oGALAXYo):
Yes, I replied too fast it seems. This is the equivalent of porting QT from Trolltech.
Scratch that thought. :S |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 12 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by miksuh on 19-Mar-2004 12:41 GMT | Isn't there already port of GTK in the geekgadges or do I remember wrong ? I have not used it myself, but I think I have seen some gtk 1.2.10 libs in my GG instalklation.
Anyway it's great that there is active project for porting current GTK. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 13 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by miksuh on 19-Mar-2004 12:45 GMT | In reply to Comment 12 (miksuh):
Hmm I did remember right. There is GTK 1.2.10 in the Amiga Geekgadgets.
It's in the Alpha folder, here:
ftp://ftp.geekgadgets.org/pub/geekgadgets/amiga/m68k/alpha/gtk/
How good port that it, i don't know because I have not used it myself. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 14 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Elwood on 19-Mar-2004 14:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 4 (Adam Waldenberg):
Hmm, it seems the GTK GUI I've seen was an old one.
I went to gtk.org and I admit the screenshots there, look good... |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 15 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by hnl_dk on 19-Mar-2004 15:13 GMT | In reply to Comment 14 (Elwood):
Yes, GTK+1 didn't look that beautifully ... GTK+2 looks great (my own opinion) ... in GTK+2 it is possible to make themes - would be able to make it look like AmigaOS :O)
We will set up a website when we have something to release |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 16 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 19-Mar-2004 15:49 GMT | In reply to Comment 15 (hnl_dk):
You know you need ATK, PANGO, FreeType, Fontconfig, GLIB etc. ported for all this ? And you are aware that with the next upcoming GTK+ versions that GNOME developers plan to add GConf and GNOME-VFS to the same layer than GTK+ ?
------------------------------------
Ny own philosophy. I am a guy who sees the things like this. I know that the situation around MorphOS, AmigaOS and AROS (I will use "Amiga" for that now) isn't the best with new Software and I also know that the resources are quite limited (to quite Ralph Schmidt here). So we need to find ways to get more software to Amiga.
Sure I do see the things similar and porting stuff to Amiga is indeed a nice thing. Why re-inventing the wheel, when you can use existing components. But I also believe we should NOT lose our individuality here. We are an individual community, with individual history. We should and need to port stuff from open source world and free software world to Amiga. We depend on that stuff and well, there is a lot of nice things we can use as well.
But we should do these ports the correct way. That is we need to get away from all the different Toolkit junk and concentrate on one Toolkit only. This is for MorphOS and AROS (MUI) and for AmigaOS it's (REACTION and MUI). That means, when we think that GAIM is a nice tool then we should make sure that we port it natively to Amiga using it's native and intuitive Toolkit. This embedds into the system nicely, it looks nicely and it Themes nicely.
Porting an entire framework to Amiga such as GTK+ today and then starting to port all these apps 1:1 without worrying for the individuality will change a lot of stuff for us. We start with GTK+ then we get over getting GNOME ported and one day we ask ourselves why the fuck we still waste time with Amiga. We now have GTK+ and GNOME, why do we still want to use Amiga then.
We then start asking ourselves if it wouldn't be better to simply trash the Amiga and install Linux only and use GNOME as is on the real thing. Look. I do come from the GNOME community, spent as said the past 5 years there. I know the community, I know the framework of GTK and GNOME good enough to have a valid opinion here (not to mention that I am also GNOME foundation member). I can tell you not everything around GNOME is as shiny as it should be. I see a lot of trash and see even things moving into the wrong direction.
I got so fedup with that stuff that I started to peek over to QNX. It has a nice microkernel and a nice GUI (Photon) but I quickly found out that there are not that many applications and I then saw that they also use GTK+ for a bunch of applications. I started to use QNX for quite some time and then got fed up. I asked myself why I should use QNX when I yet again run GTK+ and GNOME on it. I then could easily drop QNX and go back to Linux and use GNOME on it which then works faster too.
I think that there is one reason that there are so many different Operating Systems outside. People believe that their solution is better than others. They believe into their System and think it is right. I for my own think that GTK+ and GNOME is NOT going into the right direction (as if it ever went into any directions since the people working on it don't have a clue either, they hack on it whenever they have time and committ to the CVS what they think is right and now what can be usable for the users). It's imo a first class example of having created something no one can really use.
That's why I got interested into the Amiga community again (around 1 year ago now) because I believe that the people working on it are hardliners. People with ideals etc.
We do need Open Source and Free Software (since it has nothing to do with Linux. It's just a movement and philosophy of sharing programms) but when we port them, we should try to port them in a sane way if possible. And if not possible search for alternatives.
Too many toolkits will cause fragmentation and the apps start looking like arse. The one looks like this, the other looks differently and then we have the mixture of 20 toolkits etc.
Well I can tell more about it. There is a Slashdot post that I made not long ago with a huge ass reply (which also sounds like a huge rant again KDE vs. GNOME) why I do believe that GNOME is going a wrong path. You can read about it:
oo here oo
Please note it may sound like a huge ass flame in the ears of some people but others may have the tendency to agree with me. I know it's wrong to tell people to not work on a GTK+ port since I do not have the right to tell anyone this. But we are responsible for our own fuure and we do lay the stones for the road tomorrow. We should really have Amiga stay Amiga as much as possible with it's philosophy. If the Amiga OS becomes yet another container for GNOME or GTK apps then we should better think about leaving Amiga and all the efforts spent and concentrate on Linux/BSD only.
greetings,
oGALAXYo |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 17 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by hooligan/dcs on 19-Mar-2004 15:50 GMT | In reply to Comment 16 (oGALAXYo):
Ok.. thats done then. Now you can go have a beer at local bar. Try Blue Oyster ;) |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 18 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 19-Mar-2004 16:45 GMT | In reply to Comment 16 (oGALAXYo):
Atleast GLIB and Freetype is also already ported to Amiga :) |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 19 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 19-Mar-2004 16:47 GMT | In reply to Comment 18 (Anonymous):
Just look at the Geekgadgets ftp and alpha directory :) GLIB is there. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 20 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 19-Mar-2004 16:56 GMT | In reply to Comment 18 (Anonymous):
There is a difference between functional libraries and interaction and appearance libraries. Freetype was a huge benefit since it brought AA and other Font stuff to Amiga. Seamless embedded in the entire Amiga Framework.
Thats a huge difference than having Triton, Gadtools, Reaction, MUI, NewGUI and maybe soon GTK+ apps running at the same time. Your Desktop will look like the biggest pile of mess on earth.
But honestly. If you really believe there is an urge and need to get GTK+ ported to Amiga then it should seriously be time to think whether it's not better to make an entire switch and use a different system.
If this point has been reached for you then it's time. For a port and temporarely usage of some of these apps as is it may be an interesting move. But I believe that developers will become even lazier and we quickly start using the things as is. And then I really need to ask myself what future the Amiga has. If we are urged to use GTK+ on Amiga then why bother with all the flamewars, offense, namecalling etc. It would be better to make a final cut under the Amiga and move on using Lunix only. Less pain, less trouble etc.
No really I still believe we should keep individuality here and spent our efforts into porting the apps nicely. If you want to compile GTK+ apps then why not writing a real wrapper library that wraps the stuff into MUI or Reaction. That's something I could arrange myself with. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 21 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Matt Parsons on 19-Mar-2004 18:09 GMT | In reply to Comment 20 (oGALAXYo):
I was just going to suggest a GTK wrapper for MUI :-)
That would be a great idea. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 22 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Trizt on 19-Mar-2004 18:13 GMT | This seems to be the third GTK+ porting project for "AmigaOS", only one has generated some kind of usefull code.
Just point out that GTK+ isn't that usefull anymore, better to work on a wrapper for GTK2 instead, but I hope that a such project wouldn't jump on the Gnome2 bandwagon and follow the HIS, as that will really mess things up regadles which OS you would make it for, except for MacOS. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 23 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 19-Mar-2004 19:44 GMT | In reply to Comment 21 (Matt Parsons):
> I was just going to suggest a GTK wrapper for MUI :-)
I was just going to suggest a wxwindows wrapper for MUI. That would make it easier to create cross-platform applications. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 24 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Hagge on 20-Mar-2004 00:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 7 (Ronald St-Maurice):
yeah right.. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 25 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 20-Mar-2004 13:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 24 (Hagge):
Having Evolution on the AmigaOS would be a bad thing?!?!?! |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 26 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 20-Mar-2004 14:10 GMT | In reply to Comment 25 (Ronald St-Maurice):
Yes it would be a bad thing. Evolution is overblown and over hyped. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 27 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 20-Mar-2004 14:31 GMT | In reply to Comment 26 (oGALAXYo):
I disagree with you on that one.
IMO Evolution is very Amiga Like and very non UNIX like. It's an app that has everything integrated.
In my view, the AmigaOS provides very few user services (no integrated address book, profile management, Internet email accounts, etc...) All of these are done at app level on the Amiga just like Evolution does.
UNIX, on the other hand, is more like each small app does each a little chore seperately. Evolution does a lot by itself compared to most GNOME apps and contradicts the UNIX way of doing things.
The Amiga platforms would benefit greatly from a good solid app like Evolution. That's my opinion. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 28 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 20-Mar-2004 14:44 GMT | In reply to Comment 27 (Ronald St-Maurice):
Yes, maybe you have missed my earlier comment what you need as requirement to get Evolution running on Amiga.
100-150 mb ported GNOME framework before you can get Evolution compiled on it. I know what I am talking here since I wrote CVSGnome buildsystem for GNOME. I doubt anyone is willing to have 100-150 mb GNOME crap laying around on his Amiga/MorphOS and AROS system only to run Evolution. Before I do that I better get off installing Linux and GNOME and done. There would be no need messing around with Amiga and the childish behaving community anymore. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 29 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 20-Mar-2004 15:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 28 (oGALAXYo):
Who say they need to port the whole framework to use Evolution?
Pan on Windows is 2 megs itself while the GTK Runtime Environment is about 5 megs. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 30 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 20-Mar-2004 15:36 GMT | In reply to Comment 29 (Ronald St-Maurice):
> Who say they need to port the whole framework to use Evolution?
I say this sinply for the fact that I know what I am talking about. Evolution is thightly tied to the entire GNOME framework.
This includes stuff like GTK+ functioncalls, GNOME-VFS functioncalls, GAL functioncalls, GTKHtml functioncalls, GNOMEUI functioncalls, Bonobo functioncalls etc.
You can't simply PORT Evolution without porting the entire rest. With other words it's impossible to port Evolution if you don't port all the requirements as well.
PAN is differently here. PAN doesn't depend on GNOME, it just depends on GTK and if I am not mistaken the GUI elements have been separated from the Engine and a GUI for Windows has been wrapped around it. Same is possible for GAIM for example. But 100% not for Evolution and you can 100% rely on my explaination here. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 31 of 37 | ANN.lu |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 32 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 20-Mar-2004 15:54 GMT | In reply to Comment 31 (Ronald St-Maurice):
Yeah, as sad it sounds it's simply true. Your chances seeing a native Mozilla ported to Amiga is higher than getting a native Evolution ported. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 33 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 20-Mar-2004 16:02 GMT | In reply to Comment 32 (oGALAXYo):
Have you ever done OS/2 programming? If so then how do you compare the API to the one found on the Amiga and GNOME? |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 34 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 20-Mar-2004 16:10 GMT | In reply to Comment 33 (Ronald St-Maurice):
Amiga and GNOME are two different Worlds. Totally and throughly different in the core.
While they share similarities e.g. Pushbutton, Scrollbar, etc. They in the bottom are different. Evolution is not just depending on GTK+ (if so then it would be easy to write a GTK+ wrapper for it) but it depends on nearly everything found within GNOME and wrapping all this would be a painful job. GNOME is not just a bunch of widgets. It's also an entire Development framework with a couple of hundrets of different functions.
There are not just Programs to Library dependencies, you also need to think about the Library to Library dependencies. So in worst case you need to port one Library but this Library requires some other stuff, which you need to port as well.
But you are making one mistake in the way you think. You think that Evolution, GTK and GNOME are supperior things. They are not. They only benefit from the Open Source and Free Software movement that's their only pro. I for my own don't think that Evolution is an ultimate solution in PIM management. Having something look like outlook doesn't make it work like outlook only to say this here. Evolution is far from being a perfect application for all sorts of solutions. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 35 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 20-Mar-2004 16:34 GMT | In reply to Comment 34 (oGALAXYo):
So I guess you've never done OS/2 programming at all.
Btw I never said that the Evolution application, GTK framework and GNOME platform are all superior.
You should be aware that Ximian plans to port Evolution to the Win32 platform. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 36 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by oGALAXYo on 20-Mar-2004 16:41 GMT | In reply to Comment 35 (Ronald St-Maurice):
> You should be aware that Ximian plans to port Evolution to the Win32 platform.
Yes we heard these rumours as well. Their plan is to port Evolution to C# and use MONO for it one day. Once this happens it would be easier to port the MONO classes to Windows and have Evolution re-compile under that.
This is just theoretically. But Evolution is already being mainly re-written to fit better into the GNOME 2.x framework (Evolution 1.5) so I doubt that they re-write it once again anytime soon into C# and MONO.
The stuff they offer right now AS IS is highly depending on the GNOME framework. Everything else is pure theoretical stuff.
So please stop discussing with me what could happen one da. We can discuss these things once they are happening - if they are happening and not earlier. In the past we heard a lot of rumours and announcements. |
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| GTK-Amiga : Comment 37 of 37 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Trizt on 21-Mar-2004 13:40 GMT | In reply to Comment 34 (oGALAXYo):
Evolution ain't the only "3rd party" application that depends so tightly to GTK2/Gnome2 that they do not work without it, even quite small and "simple" appications like DC_GUI2 for DCTC, after removing all GTK2/Gnome2 code you end up with maybe 10-15 rows of code.
Even if there would be GTK2/Gnome2 libs for AmigaOS/MorphOS/AROS, you will have another problem, the "Gnome2 HIS", which breaks the "Classic Amiga HIS", I doubt many here would be happy that those ported applications would have their buttons ordered HELP-CANCLE-OK instead of OK-CANCLE-HELP that 'every other' desktop environemntent has except MacOS and Gnome2.
If you want to be able to use newr and older GTK applications, then you have dubble the amount of work... better to set for one universal Amiga GUI, which would make porting applications between AmigaOS/AmigaOS4/MorphOS/AROS to a really simple matter. I think oGALAXYo agrees with me, if you want GTK/Gnome2, then install *nix on yuor machine. |
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