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[Rant] AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED?ANN.lu
Posted on 22-Mar-2004 09:03 GMT by Vmachine93 comments
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I've been a registered AmigaDE developer for years, and now Amiga Inc drop this bomb on us? They've been _promising_ us that our developement efforts would be put forth in AmigaOS! they've been promising us this for years! There was 3000 of us at one point, and you've just alienated ALL of us! We've worked for NOTHING. LIARS! You've screwed us ALL over. Again!!
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 1 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 08:46 GMT
Yeah, right.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 2 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 22-Mar-2004 08:57 GMT
If you are indeed a serious developer then you should discuss any problems with AInc. I believe that this is a wind-up post though and as such I hope it will be removed.

I strongly doubt that AInc. had anywhere near 3000 developers actively producing content. As far as I can see only a handful has produced anything of any serious merit.

---
Sam
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 3 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Fredrik on 22-Mar-2004 08:59 GMT
So what have you developed?

Point out some web links so I can try it out.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 4 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by SJ on 22-Mar-2004 09:01 GMT
We will get a DE player for OS4. No-one have stated otherwise.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 5 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 22-Mar-2004 09:16 GMT
Although the initial post in this thread is a bit "emotional",
everything it says is true (I have no idea if the guy is a developer,
though but everything else ...)

It's also sad to see how some people turns their hostility and
anger towards other community members instead of the companies
involved in this asset stripping/laundry thing. They (the real bad
guys) must be protected, and any community members who dare to oppose
is considered traitors and should be publically ridiculed.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 6 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by SLayeRDK on 22-Mar-2004 09:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (takemehomegrandma):
He might be real but his email is bogus.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 7 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 09:27 GMT
LOL!!!!!

I'll bet this end up in court like new "New evidence" found by Bill Buck.

Is this all he can think off? Is this all the Bill buck lovaboyz can think of?

If you want OS4 so badly then buy an AmigaONE....
On the other hand, it's kinda funny to hear that MotphOS isn't that satisfying your needs for a "new" Amigaish OS.
It just isn't the real thing ,right? ;-)
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 8 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 09:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (SJ):
> no one has said otherwise.

"There is no such product in development or contemplated. Should a commercial partner (customer) specify Amiga DE as part of their solution, we would be required to enter a licensing agreement with Tao Group and Amiga Inc., like anybody else." - Garry Hare

Looks like it won't be done unless some third party customer asks for it and talks Garry into licensing it for AOS4, from both Tao group and Amiga inc. Maybe this will change, everything's changing lately.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 9 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 09:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (takemehomegrandma):
"other community members instead of the companies
involved in this asset stripping/laundry thing. "

Is that the best you can come up with? Trying to rally the hate troops are you? Don't forget, that is libellous.

1. Accusing a company of asset stripping.
2. Accusing a company of laundering ( unless it is a laundromat ).

Actually, carry on I would love to see you in court trying to justify yourself the way you do on here.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 10 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 22-Mar-2004 09:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
I would love to see this in court! And if there is something I can do
to make that happen ...? ;-)

It would be really bad if they would get away with this ...
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 11 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by IanS on 22-Mar-2004 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (takemehomegrandma):
Get away with what exactly?

Plans change. Deal with it.

Now if you were an AmigaDE developer then I would understand your misgivings TMHG, and would appreciate that you may be pissed off, but weren't you one of the guys who said that you weren't interested in AmigaOS4 and it's not really neccessary seeing as MorphOS is available?

Are you simply stirring the pot as you do on every other anti-Amiga Inc thread?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 12 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by SJ on 22-Mar-2004 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (T_Bone):
He is only speaking for KMOS. KMOS will not do a port of Amiga DE to OS4. That's ok. Microsoft did not port Amiga DE to Windows, yet there it is.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 13 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 10:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
> 1. Accusing a company of asset stripping.

To be honest, Amiga flat out stated as fact that the reason for the transfer was to protect it from hypothetical bankruptcy, it's right in the Fleecy Q&A last April. He also specifically mentioned "less obvious reasons."
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 14 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Peg2 on 22-Mar-2004 10:10 GMT
If you have problems with AInc, this forum is the worst place to discuss it. Therefore I think you've never been a DE developer just another FUD creator. Nice effort.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 15 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 10:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (SJ):
"Should a commercial partner (customer) specify Amiga DE as part of their solution, we would be required to enter a licensing agreement with Tao Group and Amiga Inc"

According to Garry, he is saying that KMOS would have to get a license as well, if the third party wants DE on AmigaOS. I'm not sure if Microsoft aquired a license, but it's possible they did. In any case garry is implying that KMOS would be required to get licensed, even if it's the third party who wants DE. Probably a good candidate for a "weekly question."
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 16 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 10:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Peg2):
> If you have problems with AInc, this forum is the worst place to discuss it

Where would be a better place? :?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 17 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Peg2 on 22-Mar-2004 10:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (T_Bone):
Email, telephone, personally whatever... But not on a forum. But it seems, the guy's problem is not as important to do it more clean way, only this ugly dirty way...
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 18 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Peg2):
Why is it dirty? it's not like there's anything he can do about it anyway, Amiga Inc no longer own AmigaOS, so it's not like he can privately email Amiga Inc and try to talk them out of it, it's a done deal and Amiga inc have no power over it anymore.

Anyway, why should corporations be treated with kid gloves?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 19 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by IanS on 22-Mar-2004 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (T_Bone):
Well pretty much anywhere else.

Maybe the forums on amiga.com?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 20 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by SLayeRDK on 22-Mar-2004 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (T_Bone):
Amiga still own the DE part.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 21 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 22-Mar-2004 10:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (IanS):
Oh, this was IMO not a casual "change in plans", this whole scheme
must have been carefully planned over a year ago. Strip the assets in
two steps, first to one company and then to a second. So even if the
creditors would try to cancel the deal between Amiga Inc and Itec,
they would now find that the asset is out of reach because it was sold
on one further step (and everything was covered up in the dark). The
second company (KMOS) made business "in good faith" with the Itec, and
had nothing to do with Amiga Inc and its creditors. Very clever. But I
don't know, perhaps there is a factor that binds them together anyway,
and kind of "cancel" the benefits of these jumps?

http://www.amiga.org/modules/myalbum/photos/970.jpg (there was a high
resolution scan of it too, and of course, the physical cards are
probably saved as well. Can one identify finger prints on paper?)

I was always interested in OS4, but not as a potential user. There is
simply no way on this planet that I will buy some Articia based 800
Euro dongle just to run OS4, because as you said, it's not really
necessary when I have MorphOS. What will OS4 offer that MorphOS won't?
However, I am a long time Amigan and I like to follow any interesting
developments. AROS is a third one. I now find myself taking one step
back from OS4 (actually, several steps). I now look at KMOS and its
product with totally different eyes.

However, I have the deepest respect for the OS4 team though, and it's
a shame that the great efforts of several clever programmers there
gets associated with this.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 22 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 22-Mar-2004 10:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (takemehomegrandma):
Can you prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that it is indeed asset stripping?
- No you can't
Can i prove, beyond reasonable doubt, that MOS is using sourcecode from AOS?
- no i can't

Conclusion:
I don't say it's based on it, because i don't know. can't prove (and don't care enough)
Yet, you go yapping your mouth in every thread with the same sentence, you're getting as repetitive as EVA, and just as full as air too.

You nor I know the details of the transfers, nor do we know what else goes on at Ainc, so unless you have a valid point or some evidence, stfu

Cheers
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 23 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 11:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (SLayeRDK):
Yea? But what's that got to do with AmigaOS?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 24 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 22-Mar-2004 11:09 GMT
The only thing this really hurts, aside from the theoretical future of the platform(s), is our chance to get combined billing on DE/AA and 4 if both actually continue to make progress.* Not like anyone was breaking even as it was, though.

If everyone survives, it'd be nice if AI and KMOS (or is it A1P, new twist?) could someday enter into some sort of 'technology sharing' arrangement to satisfy the original plan, but someone still has to pay the piper (Tao), and now that 4 is conclusively its own business, there's little motivation to push developers off the native API, and even less to reimplement components to depend on another company's software. (Of course, AI had the same problem with their plan, but also claimed the gumption to see it through to produce the more-marketable wunderOS.)

--

*This was somewhat of the necessary step to get DE/AA out from under the NDAfuscation and into the world as an environment people would have at hand whenever inspiration struck, but the bundling could still occur at the dealer level, if AI ever produces a product to do so with.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 25 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 22-Mar-2004 11:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
"Co-billing" is not something new nor revolutional in this industry.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 26 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by SLayeRDK on 22-Mar-2004 12:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (T_Bone):
Its got to do with the credibility of the poster, could just as well been anonymous instead.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 27 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 12:34 GMT
Hey, why don't you go say thank you to Bill Buck instead of blaming Amiga for this one too?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 28 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (IanS):
>Plans change. Deal with it.

Eactly. Plans change, expecially when a fuc*er like Buck tries to convince a judge of something that wasn't there in the first place using false evidence. But that's him, he's always been a snake since the Viscorp days, blue trolls like to forget.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 29 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 12:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (T_Bone):
If he's a really a developer he should know of at least 5 dedicated mailing lists, obviously he's just a troll.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 30 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 12:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (SJ):
Should i provide you the links, where Mc Ewen stated, that DE will be the next gen Amiga OS, with the classic line included?
Hell even in the beginning 2001 Os 4.0 was ment as a merge between DE and classic line..
than those strange DE Player.. Naaah.. Amiga are just a bunch of liars...
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 31 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 22-Mar-2004 13:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
Exactly. Some people are not giving Bill Buck the credit he deserves.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 32 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Mar-2004 13:38 GMT
Y A W N !
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 33 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Ketzer on 22-Mar-2004 13:48 GMT
Ridiculous.

And who says DE programs will never run on OS? Running hosted is something different than combining the two.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 34 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 22-Mar-2004 13:54 GMT
Who framed Garry Hare?

I mean.. who in their right mind would waste money on obsolete IP?
Even the patents have expired, there's nothing there...
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 35 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Leif on 22-Mar-2004 14:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
They didnt buy the patents.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 36 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Anonymous):
> If he's a really a developer he should know of at least 5 dedicated mailing lists, obviously he's just a troll.

If he posted that to a mailinglist, he'd be called one too :) Isn't that how Gavin got kicked?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 37 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 22-Mar-2004 14:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (samface):
> Exactly. Some people are not giving Bill Buck the credit he deserves.

[passes out on floor] :)
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 38 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 22-Mar-2004 15:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (T_Bone):
I'm quite sure you know what I mean by "credit is where credit is due" in this particular context, right? In other words, you really shouldn't be surprised at all, but I guess that's what you mean by that smiley.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 39 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 15:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (SJ):
They better make that a SDK. I'll not be getting a PC (aka x86) in addition to the AmigaOne just to develope for AmigaDE.. ;-)
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 40 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
You're mixing things up here. I just don't know if intentionally.

> Should i provide you the links, where Mc Ewen stated, that DE will be the next
> gen Amiga OS, with the classic line included?

The original plan was taking the best Amiga concepts (datatypes, boopsi, ...)
and integrate them within the DE and the add 3.x compatablility through
(integration of) UAE. Something like this. They made no secret of it. Refer to
Amiga Operating Environment (not system!), Amie.
This was in 2000.

> Hell even in the beginning 2001 Os 4.0 was ment as a merge between DE and
> classic line..

Are you BB? 'cause you're just doin' the same. I can provide you with a link
(to the TU) that AmigaDE _ON TOP OF_ AmigaOS4 was not on target before 4._2_.
Either you make it up or you have not read too exactly.

> than those strange DE Player.. Naaah.. Amiga are just a bunch of liars...

They were more a prove of concept that time, but anyway.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 41 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 22-Mar-2004 15:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
So you want the market for OS4 reduced to only AmigaONE owners? You want developers who already have a Pegasos to make a choice to only have their app available for MorphOS? What kind of business strategy is this?
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 42 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 22-Mar-2004 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Peg2):
Why not a forum? Isn't it obvious that Amiga Inc. has dedicated employees reading the forums, specifically ann.lu? It is the best way to get their attention.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 43 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 22-Mar-2004 16:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Leif):
Not so strange when there arent any patents left :)
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 44 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 22-Mar-2004 16:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (MIKE):
Hmm.. So true.. And apparently about half of (ex-)Amiga (ex-)workers are quite active on posting to this and other forums. Not seen many of them on this thread, but they are around.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 45 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Mar-2004 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Anonymous):
"They better make that a SDK. I'll not be getting a PC (aka x86) in addition to the AmigaOne just to develope for AmigaDE."

You have always had to get an x86 machine to develop for AmigaDE.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 46 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 16:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ketzer):
> And who says DE programs will never run on OS?

Player, SDK, AACE, whatever..

> Running hosted is something different than combining the two.

Even then, we're talking "AmigaOS" here. There is no other OS I know where
combining another desktop layer is more easy, not even Linux and that's OSS
(but has X..., not intuition and graphics)

Remember, we even do have WB replacements, say ScalOS, DOpus Magellan. So,
theoretically, what hinders AmigaInc. to just do that? Make AmigaDE a Workbench
replacement, do all their AG2/3.. stuff and even use the enhanced MP and other
features that will be integrated into AmigaOS4. They also could do bootable
CD's that just boot into an AmigaDE game. Whatever.

No I don't think AmigaInc. will do that to this extend, but that was
basically what should happen from 4.2 on and they even _could_ do it now.
And well, when we'll see AmigaOS4 in the embedded/mobile market or even on PDA's
it would even be a logical step for AmigaInc. not only to support WinCE but
AmigaOS. Only there won't be a function in any AmigaOS library calling an
AmigaDE API, but that's about it.

And yes, I expect AmigaInc. to stick to AmigaOS as an AmigaDE platform. Their
name forbids anything else ;-)
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 47 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 22-Mar-2004 16:16 GMT
Just read the AmigaOS4.0 feature list, it will keep you happy for now
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 48 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Mar-2004 16:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Anonymous):
"The original plan was taking the best Amiga concepts (datatypes, boopsi, ...)
and integrate them within the DE and the add 3.x compatablility through
(integration of) UAE. Something like this."

And the problem with that half-baked plan is that what makes the Amiga OS good is mainly in the kernel (fast switching etc) and low level graphics libraries. Just sticking the high level parts on top of another OS does not give you an Amiga.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 49 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 22-Mar-2004 16:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Anonymous):
I think the original plan where plain stupid,

1st interpreted, or any hi-level language can never compete whit low-level language for speed, basically whit that idea, then we copy what makes windows a slow turtle, interpreted Java / Virualbasic programs, dragging down system performance, ever tried star office? Just think how slow a complete OS can be whit that idea.
AmigaOS and DE integration CANCELLED? : Comment 50 of 93ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Mar-2004 16:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Don Cox):
> And the problem with that half-baked plan is that what makes the Amiga OS good
> is mainly in the kernel (fast switching etc) and low level graphics libraries.

Yes, you're right. But apart from that you could easily implement AmigaOS
libraries on top of intent (which in itself is even more granular and every
library _function_ is a file and loaded/unloaded as needed), AmigaInc. also
weren't talking about an OS running on a 68060/50 MHz, but on a multitude of
(mostly and/or much) more powerful processors and devices. Being "processor
and OS agnostic" was more a target than building a mimikri of AmigaOS. And they
did not say otherwise. Stupid or not.

> Just sticking the high level parts on top of another OS does not give you an
> Amiga.

Surely not. Just as sticking an A/Box on top of any Quark does not give you
an Amiga. That was not what they were saying they are doing, that was what
the commmunity were expecting them to do (apart from continuing the AmigaOS
itself and providing new hardware).
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