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[News] OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed?ANN.lu
Posted on 25-Mar-2004 09:03 GMT by Ketzer70 comments
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According to Theo de Raadt on the openbsd-misc mailing list the the code to support that platfrom will be removed from the source tree after 3.5 is out. Want to read more?
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 1 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 25-Mar-2004 08:10 GMT
awwww...

I bet the same guy would not reward A1 with any better comments ...
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 2 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 25-Mar-2004 08:10 GMT
Ouch... And the answer gives more informations !
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 3 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 on 25-Mar-2004 08:16 GMT
seems like a nice guy. http://mail-index.netbsd.org/netbsd-users/1994/12/23/0000.html
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 4 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 25-Mar-2004 08:20 GMT
Well, I wouldn't exactly take anything that guy says at face value .. a little googling quickly reveals that he has some serious issues...

..anyway, just reading his post should make a few alarmbells ringing .. quotes like "In any case, I am quite confident that there are almost NO WORKING machines in existance" and "Apparently there are only a handful of working G4 cpus in North America..." speak for themselves...


- CISC
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 5 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Ketzer on 25-Mar-2004 08:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Jupp3):
Rude behaviour and technical expertise? In any case, this was from 1994.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 6 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 25-Mar-2004 08:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Sigbjørn Skjæret):
..that is, obviously he will do exactly what he said he would do, but one can but wonder in the way he does it...


- CISC
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 7 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 08:38 GMT
FACT number one is: This DeRaadt guy has an agenda which is widely acknowledged, and his rude, inconsistent character disqualifies him from making such claims altogether. FACT number two: It doesn't take a mildly talented conspiracy theorist to recognize that the OpenBSD project is in constant need of funding and was likely hinted (Bern Hermans?) to make such claims.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 8 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by JP on 25-Mar-2004 08:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
>FACT number one is: This DeRaadt guy has an agenda which is widely
>acknowledged, and his rude, inconsistent character disqualifies him from
>making such claims altogether. FACT number two: It doesn't take a mildly
>talented conspiracy theorist to recognize that the OpenBSD project is in
>constant need of funding and was likely hinted (Bern Hermans?) to make such
>claims.

What is the agenda ? What has rudeness to do with this ? The OS in question is NetBSD, it has nothing to do with OpenBSD in this context.

Comments made about no working machines is probably way off, but I'm interested what has been going on behind the scenes. THAT is the important thing.

JP
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 9 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by JP on 25-Mar-2004 08:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (JP):
Sh*t, ignore the comment about netBSD, don't know where that came from.

JP
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 10 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 08:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Jupp3):
People tend to grow up after 9 years or so, sh*t some even manage it after a year.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 11 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 25-Mar-2004 09:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
LOL! Change your medicine.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 12 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 25-Mar-2004 09:37 GMT
Here we go (yet) again...
/me waits for the coming thread that'll be pissing on the other side

Cheers
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 13 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 25-Mar-2004 09:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Elwood):
I don't understand what's so difficult on getting Giga-ether Docs from Marvell? In this case all you need is NorthBridge Documentation as thei GB ethernet is integrated into NB used on Pegasos 2. Ok, they *DO* require a signing of NDA before DL:ing of nearly thosand pages of PDF and I can see that a principal issue for some.

At the same time I know Marvell is highly respected company and willing to help SW developers.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 14 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 25-Mar-2004 09:45 GMT
There's no question that Genesi has been disorganized in various ways in the last several months. The communication breakdowns and so on indicated in thread posts reflect that. I hope they get it together.

-- gary_c
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 15 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (priest):
If you care to reread de Raadts mail, you'll recognize that my post was an almost perfect parody of his kind of "reasoning". Assumptive, irrational. Try it...
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 16 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 25-Mar-2004 10:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
His post wasn't asumptive or irational, it was based on events that happened between then & genesi and their experiances with said company.

Wether or not his conclusions are correct i don't know, we'll see when/if Pegasos support vanishes from OpenBSD.

Now, can we get on with daily business & quit pissing on each others?

Cheers
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 17 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 10:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Amon_Re):
"the machines are SLOW and will be expensive -- and it is all a fraudulant rip-off operation as far as we can see."

This makes a hell of a sense AND proves about everything, e.g. that de Raadt is putting a hell of his weight into scaring away people. But fortunately we are used to this in this community and have our troll-detectors on. Btw. I didn't mean to piss on everyone, and I'm not the least bit trying to defend Genesi. :)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 18 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 25-Mar-2004 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Anonymous):
It should be noted that:
- He's not part of our "community"
- He has nothing to gain from supporting or slandering Genesi

So, given those 2 things i fail to see how you can make the assumption that he's deliberatly spreading lies & what not, given that we don't know what has gone on between him, Dale & Genesi.

I also think we shouldn't attach to much significance to the whole thing, if/when more info is revealed, that might shed some more lights on this, but as it is now it's rather pointless.

Cheers
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 19 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 10:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Anonymous):
Well, read the follow-up then.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 20 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 10:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Amon_Re):
> So, given those 2 things i fail to see how you can make the assumption that he's deliberatly spreading lies & what not, given that we don't know what has gone on between him, Dale & Genesi.

I'm not making the assumption that he's spreading lies, I make the assumption that he's trolling, i.e. seeding assumptions. But right, let's see if he has something to put up before we draw conclusions.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 21 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 25-Mar-2004 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Amon_Re):
Quoting him:

"At this point, I would recommend against anyone buying a piece of
hardware from the Pegasos people because their firmware is SO BUSTED
that it makes Apple roms look like hot shit."

Again a claim with nothing to back it up. He seems to be shooting with shotgun hoping some thing gets hit.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 22 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by JP on 25-Mar-2004 10:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (hooligan/dcs):
Quoting him:

"At this point, I would recommend against anyone buying a piece of
hardware from the Pegasos people because their firmware is SO BUSTED
that it makes Apple roms look like hot shit."

Again a claim with nothing to back it up. He seems to be shooting with shotgun hoping some thing gets hit.

8<----------------------

Where's this comment from ? I could not find it in the message archive ?

JP
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 23 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by JP on 25-Mar-2004 10:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (hooligan/dcs):
Forget it, found it in the news...
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 24 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 25-Mar-2004 10:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (hooligan/dcs):
I think Theo is a guy who cant tolerate mistakes or failures. As I see Theo is commenting Peg1 which was failure concept and when Peg2 finally was out it came with firmware bug. OF itself is fine and Theo knows it. After all this guy (and being core developer too, as it seems) is a guy who must be handled with care.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 25 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil on 25-Mar-2004 10:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (JoannaK):
You've obviously never worked with their (Marvell) network technology.

Their NDA system is REALLY awkward, and you end up with products you can't even ship worldwide...
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 26 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 10:52 GMT
Wow, this guy outside the amiga community summarizes quite nicely the facts that we already know about Genesi:

"I urge everyone to spread the news far and wide that the Pegasos
powerpc platform vendor ... is quite simply, a con-artist company."

So he's been dealing will Bill Buck :-)

"..they are essentially bankrupt"

Well, this don't pay lot's off people and are not able to manufacture the Pegasos in serious quantities.

"..the machine architecture is more closed than the PC architecture"

LOL! We use openfirmware that's all you need! That's what they told Hyperion as well and they didn't agree either.

"..and it is all a fraudulant rip-off operation as far as we can see"

Yeah, I wonder how they financed Genesi anyway....Stolen money from Thendic France maybe?

"As I said, I believe it is smoke and mirrors and investment games."

I can't agree more...But the possitive thing is, all these compagnies have ened the same way: bankrupcy. It's a shame that they've done so much damage to the amiga market before reaching this inevitable ending.

"In time, Dale or I may post some mail to show what has really gone on
between them and us."

Yes please!!
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 27 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 10:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Anonymous):
Yawn, as an anonymous you should really come up with something a bit less evident... :)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 28 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 25-Mar-2004 11:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Ole-Egil):
Hmm.. I have to say I didn't notice that kind of limitation on those papers we'd been receiving. Ah well, luckily for me it's not my responsibility here to sign those NDA:s :)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 29 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 11:19 GMT
Sad news for Amiga. We must unite and work together rather than fight against each others. I don't like BBRV but Pegasos is very good and I love it.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 30 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 25-Mar-2004 12:04 GMT
Wow someone pissed in his cherios:-)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 31 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 25-Mar-2004 12:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (redrumloa):
BB & RV ? ;)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 32 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 25-Mar-2004 12:29 GMT
Oh yeah, I knew there was another reason to try for NetBSD first...

...When's the last time NetBSD's removed a supported platform? ;)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 33 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 12:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (itix):
> I think Theo is a guy who cant tolerate mistakes or failures

Well, before discrediting this guy as irrational or such. There was at least one
woman agreeing with him and "In time, Dale or I may post some mail to show what
has really gone on" indicates that Dale hasn't been to Luck-y with Genesi either.

That said, I wonder how many OBSD people worked at the port? More than 3? Those 3? ;-)
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 34 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Ole-Egil on 25-Mar-2004 12:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (JoannaK):
We're working on outdated docs because their new NDA thingie (afaik) means we can only sell our products in countries not on USAs "bad guy list". The problem with that is that the list has a bit of a tendency to change without prior notice. Yesterdays hero is tomorrows crook (Al Queda, Saddam Hussein etc all got support from USA at some time, remember?).

Anyway, I think our lawyer said no to that NDA...
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 35 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 25-Mar-2004 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
I would not say Theo de Raadt irrational but his rant looks weird in this context. Preferring overexpensive Mac over Peg *is* kinda weird too. But he has right for his opinion of course. Diana Eichert needed Gigabit ethernet which was not supported by OpenBSD and docs are behind Marvell's NDA. Bad luck but what could one do? Let's hope hirschma and everyone else interested get Peg2 with full OpenBSD support... Peg2 is such nice board and deserves support more than anything else.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 36 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by ikir on 25-Mar-2004 12:58 GMT
I don't like Genesi very much, but i don't think that they are in bankrupt.

No OpenBeos (at least not annunced) for A1, now we read that also the Pegasos wont be supported from 3.5.

We need more differet OSes on our machines to gain attention.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 37 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 25-Mar-2004 13:03 GMT
Hmm, isn't there gigabit support in Linux? If so, why is it so
impossible to get in *BSD? Marvell supply Linux drivers themselves,
or..?
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 38 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Mar-2004 13:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> Well, before discrediting this guy as irrational or such. There was at least one woman agreeing with him

Just one woman? Don't forget the usual suspects right here who whole-heartedly agree with everything critical of the Genesi/Pegasos/MorphOS branch ;-) Parrots like amon_re are at least as good as that guy at not letting facts get into their way. Anyway, factual criticism along the lines of too slow and too expensive is obviously true from a Linux/PC/x86 perspective. That's hardly news. It doesn't matter, the Pegasos is about AmigaOS, not Linux. The Pegasos is the best, fastest and cheapest Amiga PPC solution. If that's not good enough for you, then go. I have no idea why a hardcore Linux/BSD developer got interested in a 1 GHz machine. I understand even less why he later complains that it is too slow/expensive and should not be supported anymore. Wasn't that fact obvious to him the second he saw the product described on a web page? Did he misplace his reading glasses and not see the price nor the specs?
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 39 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 25-Mar-2004 13:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
> Well, before discrediting this guy as irrational or such. There was at least one woman agreeing with him

Just one woman? Don't forget the usual suspects right here who whole-heartedly agree with everything critical of the Genesi/Pegasos/MorphOS branch ;-) Parrots like amon_re are at least as good as that guy


You should have noted that i said to disregard this post, infact, i was somewhat defending the blue guys.
If there's an idiot here, it you, mister anonimous coward. I'm mostly critical of a certain internet entity involved with Genesi, and i have no problems with MOS & what not.

at not letting facts get into their way. Anyway, factual criticism along the lines of too slow and too expensive is obviously true from a Linux/PC/x86 perspective. That's hardly news. It doesn't matter, the Pegasos is about AmigaOS, not Linux. The Pegasos is the best, fastest and cheapest Amiga PPC

For starters, the Pegasos is not an amiga, it's a related machine, but is not an Amiga.
The Pegasos isn't about AmigaOS neighter, as it won't run AmigaOS, it does, however run MOS & Linux & BSD.
Also note that i try to be as to the point as possible, and i do stick with the facts that i am aware of.
Trying to slander me will not gain you anything, not even friends.

solution. If that's not good enough for you, then go. I have no idea why a hardcore Linux/BSD developer got interested in a 1 GHz machine. I understand even less why he later complains that it is too slow/expensive and should not be supported anymore. Wasn't that fact obvious to him the second he saw the product described on a web page? Did he misplace his reading glasses and not see the price nor the specs?

This last quote however, reveals your lack of intelligence, for starters, BBRV actively "courted" these people to obtain a port, he even went as far as donating a board, unfortunatly, as the people in that list report, there were differences that hindered it.

I'll repeat myself once more, disregard this "news" untill/if more news comes out.

Cheers
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 40 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Ronald on 25-Mar-2004 14:01 GMT
It's no biggie. OpenBSD is a drop in the ocean.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 41 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Mar-2004 14:06 GMT
Leaving aside rudeness and confrontational attitudes, and also discounting ridiculous conspiracy theories regarding Genesi's rivals, this does however highlight one problem that has been obvious with both Pegasos and AmigaOne machines right from the start:

They are systems built and designed with small resources, and constitute largely unproven technology - at least in part, but one failing part is sufficient to make the whole system fail. The companies behind them are also small and ill-equipped when it comes to supporting the adoption of their systems in critical business environments.

De Raadt isn't the only one to have encountered problems getting support from Genesi - though in his anger he has clearly jumped to conclusions which are premature for the time being. The AmigaOne issues and subsequent cover-up are also quite well documented. How can anyone in their right mind invest considerable amounts of their IT budget in these systems and not lay awake every night wondering if he didn't just throw money down the toilet?

After all the hype about capturing niche markets that need cool & quiet machines, are we seeing reality starting to bite?
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 42 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Rassilon on 25-Mar-2004 14:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Bill Hoggett):
Bill,

sometimes I really wonder why you're still here!

Rassilon
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 43 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Mar-2004 15:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Rassilon):
...to annoy people who can't tolerate criticism of the path they have chosen to follow as gospel, and to prick holes in the silly hype that surrounds all the recent develoments in the Amiga scene. I sometimes think the amount of hype is as high as it is only to mask substantive issues which no one in the community (users & developers alike) want to address.

Read the two threads about going mainstream (here and on Amiga.org) and see how many people base their views on pure fantasy and baseless assumptions.

The sort of issues people have had with Pegasos II and OpenBSD are both symptomatic and very predictable. When I previously asked how such things would be dealt with, I was laughed at. No doubt many will now dismiss OpenBSD as irrelevant rather than address the underlying problem.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 44 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 25-Mar-2004 15:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Bill Hoggett):
>No doubt many will now dismiss OpenBSD as irrelevant rather than address the underlying problem.

The problem is in communication between Genesi and the developer (in this case de Raadt). There is not much us users can do about it. This is not the first time, and won't be the last one either.

The rest of what he said.. well.. "bullshit" is the word that comes to my mind at first.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 45 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Interesting on 25-Mar-2004 15:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
>>If you care to reread de Raadts mail, you'll recognize that my post was an almost perfect parody of his kind of "reasoning". Assumptive, irrational. Try it... <<

You have never been angry, or felt used?

>> Once the Peg2 started
shipping in Mid January I was contacted by Genesi to see if I was
interested in evaluating a board. I received a Peg2 G3 board and went to
the OpenBSD site to see what the status of OBSD for Pegasos was. At that
time there was no Peg2 support,<<

It's clear to me what happend. He bought into the hype, and spin by BBRV. When he found out it was an empty spin, he had to end things, and warn others.

If you have ever been "taken", or been used, you can understand where he's coming from.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 46 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 25-Mar-2004 15:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Bill Hoggett):
Like "it doesnt matter, i run morphos anyway and it is all i care" ? Although Theo's rant is unfair the point is that things are not working well enough. Core developers like Theo have on/off attitude - things must work from the begining or forget it altogether.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 47 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 25-Mar-2004 15:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Johan Rönnblom):
Don't forget that Linux allows non-GPL-kernel-modules (like the GFX-drivers from
nVidia).
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 48 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 25-Mar-2004 15:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (itix):
@itix

I also had a developer board at one time and promptly returned it because the whole experience was an aggravation. This was sometime last year, many months ago now.

I agree with your point...about having an 'on/off' attitude...I've been in the business a long time, I'm not a os core developer, but even in my position, I don't have much tolerance for a lot of nonsense.

I think one can complain about people not being more forgiving, but the other side of the coin, is its business reality, and they will address those needs, or they cannot, and won't.
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 49 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by tarbos on 25-Mar-2004 16:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Kronos):
Does Linux have Marvell drivers or not?
OpenBSD support code for Pegasos to be removed? : Comment 50 of 70ANN.lu
Posted by Velcro on 25-Mar-2004 16:42 GMT
So whats up with Genesi USA office then? Is it closed? Has anyone else had difficult contacting them (email/fone)? Is USA not supporting developers, only europe?
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