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[Motd] Legal threats?ANN.lu
Posted on 06-Apr-2004 07:24 GMT by Christian Kemp (Edited on 2004-04-06 10:09:44 GMT by Christian Kemp)1057 comments
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I am currently being threatened by my former employer (they are "compelled [to] take action against [me]") for the way I am running ANN, and how this allegedly violates my employment contract with them ("interfere _in any manner_ with any business relationship between the Company and any of its customers or business partners"). This might entail drastic changes to the relative freedom of speech ANN has always allowed its visitors, or ANN might close down altogether. Updated 10:00 CET.
Legal threats? : Comment 201 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 06-Apr-2004 12:18 GMT
This is absolutely crazy. ANN has always been about free speech and impartiality. I fail to understand what BBRV is trying to accomplish here, apart from alienate his own supporters.

BBRV, please, stop with these threats, or you'll turn the entire community against you.
Legal threats? : Comment 202 of 1057ANN.lu
Message removed by Teemu I. Yliselä for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: insult
Legal threats? : Comment 203 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 06-Apr-2004 12:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 197 (kalmar):
> So? I think it's reasonable to assume who the "former employer" is. BBRV is the
> one who has caused this trouble by the looks of it, so why shouldn't people
> comment on that?

I didn't say people shouldn't comment on it.
Legal threats? : Comment 204 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Name on 06-Apr-2004 12:24 GMT
Posted on 06-Apr-2004 07:24 GMT by Christian Kemp

Kemp complains about trolling but trolls himself? what is going on, Kemp you stinking troll.
Legal threats? : Comment 205 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 06-Apr-2004 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 200 (Anonymous):
Well BBRV is not saying much either... From MorphZone:

"Thanks tokai, we agree with you. There will be no discussion from us or anyone else from Genesi about this.

Have a great day!

R&B"
Legal threats? : Comment 206 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 06-Apr-2004 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 194 (Fabio Alemagna):
I don't see how making this public isn't respectable, why would this need to be handled discreetly? I don't see how keeping it silent implies any honor. If it were legal details about his employment I'd think differently, but this is a threat made to the site over public posts made to it.

Add to that, the man doing the threatening, has talked about legal action he was going to bring against others, himself, right here on this same site.

Nobody else has treated these things with kid gloves, (especially bbrv) so I don't see any reason Chris should. I see the threat itself as troublemaking, not the information that the threat was made.
Legal threats? : Comment 207 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Matt Parsons on 06-Apr-2004 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (Amon_Re):
Amon!! Do you really think you are helping the situation by making MORE libalous comments?
Legal threats? : Comment 208 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 06-Apr-2004 12:27 GMT
It is amazing ... just a month or so ago bbrv was seen as being good here by many many people ... now there are hardly no bbrv supporters left. What an amazing case of self-destruction.

Now I would like to see a copy of the letter that Christian received that prompted this thread, if it wouldn't create a legal problem by posting a scan. We also don't know many of the details behind the situation either, it would be handy for someone to post an accurate list of events.

>>SPECULATION BASED UPON THE FEW FACTS + RANDOM THOUGHTS FOLLOWS<<

As far as I've read, it appears that Christian was hired by bbrv to do something, but quit after a time. He might not have been paid for the work. This does sound familiar, as something like this happened to Wayne Hunt too, IIRC. It appears that terms of employment included the websites that these people ran be moderated in a manner that is good for bbrv/genesi? So basically bbrv tried buying off the owners of major Amiga websites to be positive for him, and possibly negative to other sites/entities like AW.net, Amiga Inc, and so on? Now Christian didn't do this moderation at all naturally, so bbrv is coming after him? Of course, AW.net was kept off the links area until today. Maybe bbrv wished Christian had moderated his own comments that were used in the court case? Maybe he is trying to get Christian to remove those comments so that bbrv can claim that the posts were never made? Maybe bbrv is going after Christian because of that fake Fleecy e-mail that he used in the case, and which may have been a cause of an as-yet-unknown-to-us decision by the Judge against Thendic?

So the above >>SPECULATION<< is what we end up with with the dearth of facts available at the moment! Regardless, bbrv is on very shaky legal ground at the moment, and has lost the support of a lot of the community that he had a mere few months ago.
Legal threats? : Comment 209 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by bluvi on 06-Apr-2004 12:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 198 (Sammy Nordström):
there is no legal action, there is no prove
only one side story. so there is no news.

i agree with fabio.

peace!
Legal threats? : Comment 210 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 06-Apr-2004 12:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 199 (Joe):
If you aren't just trolling maybe you can explain what is right about it, and what is so wrong about CK and ANN.

If you have an opinion you can be a little more elegant than a quick inflamatory sound bite. You can think anything you want, to me it just sounded like a weak attempt at trolling.
Legal threats? : Comment 211 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 06-Apr-2004 12:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 210 (redrumloa):
As you can see, there has suddenly been a spate of "pro buck" and "anti Christian"trolls in this thread from random IP addresses, with and without names. Maybe this is the remaining hard-line Buck faithful? Maybe just some random people who like being idiots? Who knows... but it is extremely lame behaviour.
Legal threats? : Comment 212 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 06-Apr-2004 12:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 99 (Ben Hermans):
Ben, are you *sure*? Under Luxemburg law?I distinctly recall (and could, probably, if pushed, try to find) a recent-ish news item on the Heise Newsticker which stated that a German court had found against the webmaster of a similar site in a defamation case; He had argued that it was third party posters that made the comments; However, as the plaintiffs could show that the webmaster was aware of comments (by the fact that he participated in discussions, and also admitted to checking the comments prediodically), the court considered the webmaster responsible.Personally, I wouldn't bet the farm on Luxemburg courts being any less absurd in their decisions....(And just in case it isn't clear --- I think this whole thing sucks, and is entirely ridiculous. I am just not convinced that it is ridiculous enough to be thrown out of court)
Legal threats? : Comment 213 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 06-Apr-2004 12:36 GMT
Oh, what a relief it must be for Christian to have all these anonymous
cowards united behind him. Respect to the people who signed with their
real names, *no* respect to the anonymous people.

I'm ready to chip in 50 EUR too if there's a need for legal defense
for ANN.

However, I agree this article was neither fair nor honourable. But
it's not fun to be put under this kind of pressure, so I understand
why it happens.

Without any real information about the nature of these "threats", it's
hard to comment, but some general stuff:

a) Yes, you might be somehow responsible for what is posted, if it's
not "reasonably" moderated. However, I think the moderation at ANN
would pass those tests as there's moderation several times per day.
Legislation really varies from country to country, though.

b) It also varies what kind of messages could be sued over. Laws on
libel vary quite a lot, I know it's for example much more easy to sue
someone over this in France than it is here in Sweden (here it's
almost impossible).

c) In any case, it should be wise to reply with a question about
exactly which messages are considered to be offending. Document all
your communication and try to be cooperative in general (I'm not
saying you should bow down to unreasonable requests in any way, just
show that you're active and trying to solve the situation).
Legal threats? : Comment 214 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Apr-2004 12:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 211 (Graham_nli):
> Maybe this is the remaining hard-line Buck faithful?

Maybe it's just common sense?
Legal threats? : Comment 215 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 06-Apr-2004 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 206 (T_Bone):
> I don't see how making this public isn't respectable, why would this need to
> be handled discreetly? I don't see how keeping it silent implies any honor.

Troy, did I ever say Christian should have stay silent? Please, read again my post. I said all he should have done was making names clear and substantiate his accusations with more than an handful words excerpted from the email he got.
Legal threats? : Comment 216 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Bobson on 06-Apr-2004 12:38 GMT
So many ppl are trying to turn this on its head - and directing their bile at "red trolls". For example, the attacks on KMOS are unfounded - they have yet to prove themselves as good or bad. Hyperion and Eyetech have been doing a grand Job. I think in a few years time, with hindesight you will see why Amiga inc did what they did.

I dont think the Red side has been under any illusions as to Amiga inc's problems or incompetencies - but they are just that incompetency. You can forgive ppl for their misjudgement, but its harder to forgive them for their spite and malice.

MOS and Pegasos could have been a seperate community - a seperate system. It could have been great for them. But its all gone sour through greed. The bitter ppl are unable to let go, dont like being proved that their hero worship was unfounded - and are by default true blind followers of a personality - which in my oppinion is worse than being a blind follower of a machine.


This isnt about censorship, or blue vs red - or black, or yellow or marroon. Its about what is right. Its about standing up to being bullied.
Christian - regardless of what happends to Ann, I hope that you come out of this ok.
Legal threats? : Comment 217 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 06-Apr-2004 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 194 (Fabio Alemagna):
>The issue should have been handled differently, for example by making
>accusations and names clear.

Why? Do you think there would have been less of a flamewar and personal attacks if Christian made outright accusation towards specific individuals?

I don't think this news article is about making any accusations against anyone to begin with, but more about letting people know what is happening and that Christian might have to close down the site, either by force or because he simply isn't motivated enough to keep it running under these circumstances.

If Christian would have wanted to make accusation or put any specific individual in a bad light, I'm quite sure he would have put those names in this article. The fact that he has not done so tells me that the intention never was to be accusative towards anyone to begin with.
Legal threats? : Comment 218 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by BBRVWillLookUpMyIP on 06-Apr-2004 12:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 185 (Fabio Alemagna):
>I don't see any support for Christian in 99% of the posts in this thread, I >only see attacks to Genesi and, specifically, bbrv masked out as support for >Christian. Quite a big difference.

I give my full support to Christian.
Legal threats? : Comment 219 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Apr-2004 12:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 212 (Bernie Meyer):
the threat isn't for defamation, but for breach of his employment contract, big difference
Legal threats? : Comment 220 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 06-Apr-2004 12:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 213 (Johan Rönnblom):
Oh, and of course: The chance of any actual litigation happening is
statistically fairly low. Remember, there's been public promises of
lawsuits being made on this board before, yet nothing happened.
Legal threats? : Comment 221 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Gru on 06-Apr-2004 12:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 214 (Anonymous):
Maybe you're just a moron hiding behind a keyboard.
Legal threats? : Comment 222 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 06-Apr-2004 12:47 GMT
This is just static, white noise, don't worry....


I give up! How strange is it going to get?? I'm NOT leaving NOW!!!
Legal threats? : Comment 223 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 06-Apr-2004 12:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 216 (Bobson):
" I dont think the Red side has been under any illusions as to Amiga inc's problems or incompetencies - but they are just that incompetency. You can forgive ppl for their misjudgement, but its harder to forgive them for their spite and malice. "

I don't doubt they were incompetant, but some of the whopping lies rank right up there with spite and malice.
Legal threats? : Comment 224 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 06-Apr-2004 12:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 217 (Sammy Nordström):
> Why? Do you think there would have been less of a flamewar and personal
> attacks if Christian made outright accusation towards specific individuals?

If the accusations Christian makes are all genuine, then no, there would have been exactly the same amount of trolling and slandering, however we'd know everything that there's to know about the issue and no one would dare to speculate, as there'd be nothing to speculate about, and all accusations would be well founded.

After all, this is what you always wanted, Sammy: facts on which to judge, before judging.

Moveover, Christian should have moderated all slandering posts, as he has always done.


> I don't think this news article is about making any accusations against anyone
> to begin with, but more about letting people know what is happening and that
> Christian might have to close down the site, either by force or because he
> simply isn't motivated enough to keep it running under these circumstances.

If the point is not to make accusations and rise masses, then there's no point in announcing that it might happen that ANN might have to close down.

> If Christian would have wanted to make accusation or put any specific
> individual in a bad light, I'm quite sure he would have put those names in
> this article. The fact that he has not done so tells me that the intention
> never was to be accusative towards anyone to begin with.

Sorry, but I could see it the completely opposite way.
Legal threats? : Comment 225 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by BBRVWillLookUpMyIP on 06-Apr-2004 12:53 GMT
I'm out of words. Lando is against what Mr Buck is doing.
Legal threats? : Comment 226 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 06-Apr-2004 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 219 (Anonymous):
But the supposed breach, if I understand correctly, is the failure to remove defamatory/libellous comments.The supposed defense (assuming that there'd ever be a need for defence --- long way to go yet until it gets to that) is, essentially "just like telcos, ann.lu is just a carrier of other people's information; The carrier is not responsible for the content of other people's stuff".That very defence has failed in at least one case (the one I kinda cited), and I seem to extremely vaguely recall other instances, too.
Legal threats? : Comment 227 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Apr-2004 12:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 216 (Bobson):
> Hyperion and Eyetech have been doing a grand Job. I think in a few years time, with hindesight you will see why Amiga inc did what they did.

Oh no, not more years, please! You mean this ironically, don't you? :)

> I dont think the Red side has been under any illusions as to Amiga inc's problems or incompetencies - but they are just that incompetency. You can forgive ppl for their misjudgement, but its harder to forgive them for their spite and malice.

Right, they are just incompetent, not evil like bbrv. Amen. But is it really necessary to rub salt into the wounds of the animal when you just smelled the blood of its injury? Why don't you fask Christian first who has threatened him and how?
Legal threats? : Comment 228 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Apr-2004 13:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 221 (Gru):
> Maybe you're just a moron hiding behind a keyboard

I wonder what motivates such comments and first class reasoning? Facts not know, one side refuses to speak, the other side drops a morsel or two but is shy to provide facts. Both sides have a track record that speaks against them: bbrv's pockets are empty and people were not paid, Christian has used his site before to ride thinly-vailed attacks against Genesi. I think it's common sense to withhold final judgement, instead of calling people with dissenting view "morons behind keyboard". But if that's your style...
Legal threats? : Comment 229 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 06-Apr-2004 13:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 226 (Bernie Meyer):
The editor of the website of Sweden's largest newspaper (incidentally,
the largest Swedish news site as well) was convicted because he didn't
remove racist user comments from the site quickly enough.

However, in that sentence the court did take into account that this
was a large newspaper with resources to keep a high level of
moderation.
Legal threats? : Comment 230 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 06-Apr-2004 13:05 GMT
@Christian Kemp Could you post the entire message you got from this Company?
Legal threats? : Comment 231 of 1057ANN.lu
Message removed by Teemu I. Yliselä for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: impersonation
Legal threats? : Comment 232 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 06-Apr-2004 13:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 226 (Bernie Meyer):
"But the supposed breach, if I understand correctly, is the failure to remove defamatory/libellous comments."

I'm guessing the comment in question is the fake Fleecy e-mail that Buck used in court, and might get him in trouble because it is fake and he said it is real.

Was that thread moderated as News? If so, then Christian could be in trouble. bbrv can clearly say that he assumed that the e-mail was true because it was on a website with moderation, and it was moderated as News, i.e., published by the site owner. This would get bbrv off of the accusation that he deliberately lied legally I guess.
Legal threats? : Comment 233 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Apr-2004 13:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 110 (Fabio Alemagna):
Whatever Fabio, whatever.
That's all i'm going to say to you about it, i said what was on my liver, take or leave it.

Cheers
Legal threats? : Comment 234 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 06-Apr-2004 13:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 223 (T_Bone):
"" I dont think the Red side has been under any illusions as to Amiga inc's problems or incompetencies - but they are just that incompetency. You can forgive ppl for their misjudgement, but its harder to forgive them for their spite and malice. "

I don't doubt they were incompetant, but some of the whopping lies rank right up there with spite and malice."

True, but Amiga Inc are history now, and not relevant to this thread.
Legal threats? : Comment 235 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 06-Apr-2004 13:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 221 (Gru):
It has to be quite big keyboard if someone can hide behind it :)
Legal threats? : Comment 236 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 06-Apr-2004 13:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 233 (Amon_Re):
> That's all i'm going to say to you about it, i said what was on my liver, take
> or leave it.

I know that, I didn't think for a moment to make you modify your behaviour. I gladly leave it, thanks.
Legal threats? : Comment 237 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by poundsmack on 06-Apr-2004 13:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 216 (Bobson):
Hyperion and Eyetech have been doing a grand Job.

Eyetech maybe but Hyperion? where is their OS what was supposed to be in 2001? over 3 year and fuck all. Hyperion are doing a piss poor job and are letting the community down badly, they are the sort of shit the Amiga platform does not need.

KMOS (AKA Amiga Inc Rebadged) are not even worth spitting on or even worth mentioning.
Legal threats? : Comment 238 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Sam Smith on 06-Apr-2004 13:15 GMT
Christian - I wish you all the best in sorting this thing out. I too don't think you have too much to be worried about as I cannot see how you have done anything illegal.

This is a case of Genesi cointinuing its self-destruct mode. I wouldn't worry too much - Genesi have hardly shown themselves to be masters of legal proceedings...

---
Sam
Legal threats? : Comment 239 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 06-Apr-2004 13:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 231 (KimmoK):
>Christian Kemp has started this thread as a "GUESS WHO?" thread and is causing the trolling & attacks

Be serious, it shouldn't have taken reader more than a nano-second to "guess who".

I'm still semi-stunned. I really can't understand why BBRV are doing this. It's a Public Relations disaster.

Hang in there Chris, and if you go to court then put me down for a $50 donation.
Legal threats? : Comment 240 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 06-Apr-2004 13:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 232 (Graham_nli):
Let's for a moment assume that that is indeed what this is about....Nobody could possibly argue that Christian has any extraordinary qualifications to judge the authenticity of that mail (be it fake or not, who know? Who cares?). And the mail was presented as coming from Fleecy in an official submission to a US district court, by Genesi themselves. No appeal to somebody else's authority ("This mail, which was accepted as coming from Fleecy by Amiga luminaire Christian Kemp"), but rather, its authorship was stated as fact.If it is indeed fake, and if that causes problems seeing as it was being presented as real --- then the person who was fooled by it enough to submit it to a court surely cannot argue that being fooled by it enough to not remove it from ann.lu was negligent, or in some other way condemnable.Which means that that's almost certainly not what this is about.
Legal threats? : Comment 241 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_nli on 06-Apr-2004 13:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 237 (poundsmack):
I don't recall Hyperion being in the frame in 2001 ... anyway what is being (well, will be) shipped is more like AmigaOS4.2 than the original specifications for AmigaOS4.0, and oddly enough kinda on time for that specification.

Better a working release than a non-working release I say.
Legal threats? : Comment 242 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 06-Apr-2004 13:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 231 (KimmoK):
Now, that is clever.
Legal threats? : Comment 243 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 06-Apr-2004 13:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 216 (Bobson):
MOS and Pegasos could have been a seperate community

It couldn't. It IS the same comunity. You like it or not. Most of todays comunity came from classic Amiga line, some people just've chosen working amigalike solution, these are the same people. Comunity seems to be divided by laywers and 'fighters for true'. It all should be about product and not name/personality cult. Before MorphOS hit the scene, UAE and then Amithlon users were considered 'traitors' (just like MOS users now). It's all a soap game.

Its about what is right. Its about standing up to being bullied

It's about fight and not about final success.
Legal threats? : Comment 244 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 06-Apr-2004 13:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 241 (Graham_nli):
Luckily this thread has nothing to do with MorphOS or AmigaOS.
Legal threats? : Comment 245 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Mark on 06-Apr-2004 13:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 237 (poundsmack):
Blame Ben Hermans, he was the wanker making stupid release dates to the Amiga community.
Legal threats? : Comment 246 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 06-Apr-2004 13:24 GMT
Ran out of popcorn and beer while reading comments 1-200

*runs to local shop*
Legal threats? : Comment 247 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Angeldaniel on 06-Apr-2004 13:26 GMT
Man, that sucks. Sorry to hear that. It's kinda stupid too, since their wording almost suggests that if you have any other PERSONAL relationships with ANY company in any way which is not luvvy-duvvy and useful to your boss, then that's going to be grounds for a lawsuit. Frankly, what you do in your spare time is entirely your own business, it is none of their business whatsoever. I think you should fire your employer and get a new job. How DARE they treat you like that! It's rediculous, man. Saying that your website looks bad for their company or makes an issue for their company relationships is nothing to do with them. It's like saying that if you wear a pink t-shirt and someone laughs at you, then you aren't representing your company. Man, if that's how they are going to treat you, you need a new job. Good luck to ya! ANN is a great website.
Legal threats? : Comment 248 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Apr-2004 13:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (Fabio Alemagna):
Irelevant

Cheers
Legal threats? : Comment 249 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Apr-2004 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Rich Woods):
Rich, i'll match your 50.

Ochal Christophe

Cheers
Legal threats? : Comment 250 of 1057ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 06-Apr-2004 13:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 224 (Fabio Alemagna):
>If the point is not to make accusations and rise masses, then there's no point
>in announcing that it might happen that ANN might have to close down.

While trying to avoid making accusations towards any specific individual, he has tried to explain that these circumstances "might entail drastic changes to the relative freedom of speech ANN has always allowed its visitors, or ANN might close down altogether". I strongly disagree that it would be "pointless" to announce this since I think this information is of outmost interest to the readers of ANN.lu and I thank Christian for giving us the ability to show our support in this moment of despair. The worst thing that could have happened is if Christian would have decided to simply shudown ANN.lu without telling anyone why.
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