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[Web] First review of OS4-pre?ANN.lu
Posted on 07-Jun-2004 23:36 GMT by Emil 'opi' Oppeln Bronikowski149 comments
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OSNews just raported about AmigaOS4-pre review done by Sascha "SieGeL" Pfalz. Go, and read it. It's kinda shame that, I, ,TheBlueSider'' have to add sutch intresting newsitem instead someone from Red Side. ;-))
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 51 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 11:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (miksuh):
I'm basing this on the September 2002 Feature list from Hyperion. Did they write things in it that they never intended to deliver? Maybe so, but I don't see how that's anyone's fault but their own. So, that's the list of features OS4.0 is supposed to have, I don't see how it can be interpreted any other way.

Meanwhile other things are falling apart. Having dismissed explanations months ago from non-partisan outsiders about how inferior the OS4 memory model is the Friedens returned to AW.net to say that, oh yeah, if you try to actually _use_ the 1GB of RAM in your AmigaOne with a simple memory allocation, it won't work. Just like Win16, the new Amiga Exec will be telling you that you're "Out of memory" when there's plenty of spare RAM.

Now in some retro-computing circles this is interpreted as a good thing. What makes you feel more warm and fuzzy than an OS error that's completely spurious right? RISCOS users still glow with pride when they read instructions for manually configuring the available memory in their favourite applications. Which reminds me, did the auto-stack behaviour get integrated into the OS4 preview? Or is that another "done" item that still needs actually, you know, doing.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 52 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 08-Jun-2004 11:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (miksuh):
I think this "beta"/"alpha"/"pre-release" semantics is quite pointless. Besides, if I am not mistaken, no-where in the MorphOS "about" is it proclaimed that the OS is in beta. Sure, you might think so, based on your own (unique) individual definition of what features a "non-beta OS" should contain, and perhaps based on the amount of bugs. However, the definition of what features a "complete OS" should contain is highly subjective, and in all release versions of all OS's I have seen up till now there has been bugs. In the latest release versions of the Windows OS's new bugs are constantly being discovered, and I am sure that one could come up with loads of feature they miss in Windows, thus claiming it to be somewhat "uncomplete" for their particular needs.

The latest release of MorphOS is 1.4 (or "1.4.2" if you wish), and whether it lacks to much features and has too many bugs in order to be called a "non-beta OS" is up to you. I am sure that some will consider it to be quite able to replace a "complete" end-user release of AmigaOS 3.1 right now (I do). Others would perhaps wait for some more of their own individual conditions to be fullfilled before considering it to be "complete".

But an OS is never "finished". An OS that is "finished" is equal to *dead*. And arguing about semantics is not the best way to spend your time, IMHO.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 53 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler/Pagan on 08-Jun-2004 11:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (takemehomegrandma):
I hear that.

Actually I was a lot more annoyed at the first releases of OS X (10.1 was what should have been the first release and 10.2 the first really nice release) than of the current state of AmigaOS 4.

Around 10.0.3 OS X was crashing on me several times a day when using certain apps, so I had to bring headphones to class, so I could reboot the machine without disturbing the others - because the volume setting was sometimes ignored on reboot. Talk about embarassing the first time it happened.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 54 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 11:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Emeric SH):
> MorphOS is the counterpart of AmigaOS, and Ambient of Workbench.

Yes, your point? I was talking about AmigaOS 3.9 and MOS as a whole, thus including Workbench and Ambient.

> To be honest, you have to look very hard and being very biased to find only
> those areas where the current prerelease of AmigaOS4 offers more than MorphOS.

Reread the comment above by me, as what you state is incorrect. What you implied is not what I stated.

However IMO MOS is only ahead in a few areas and the AmigaOS4 Developer pre-release in other areas. Of course considering the Developer Pre-release is mostly aimed at software development, more advanced/complete development tools and easy install process are more important for AmigaOS at this point. Thus also stability is more important than performance (68k vs PPC native modules, proven stability vs speed).

I do believe that when AmigaOS4.0 is complete it will be more feature complete compared to what is currently being planned (at least of what is known publicly about) for MOS. Agreed MOS had a clear headstart, but things are moving along very fast for AmigaOS4 development and IMO things have slowed down with regard to MOS OS development. At least that's my take.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 55 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 08-Jun-2004 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Thomas Würgler/Pagan):
>Actually I was a lot more annoyed at the first releases of OS X (10.1 was what >sould have been the first release
yes.. that was the first time apple did a microsoft and a LOT of mac heads were very pissed off and went back to os9 quickly, however i wa very impressed with the speed increases in 10.2 for g3 machines tho...
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 56 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 08-Jun-2004 12:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Guest):
>and the AmigaOS4 Developer pre-release in other areas.

such as?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 57 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 12:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Anonymous):
Note that four days after the feature list was released Ben wrote here, on ANN, that the USB stack was done. Yet it's not included in the Developer pre-release TWENTY MONTHS later, almost as though it wasn't finished back then after all...

If you want an example of a feature that's _really_ slated for OS 4.x rather than 4.0 consider Symmetric Multiprocessing, SMP which Ben Hermans said will be able to be used in later 4.x versions.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 58 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 12:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
"That's funny, in countless areas MorphOS is far, far ahead of the existing AmigaOS 3.9 and yet you seem to think it is alpha ;) Ambient is a mixed bag but the rest of the OS is release quality material (and the new Ambient is on the way)."

I'm not referring to the "quality" (by which I presume you mean stability) of what is there, but to the things that are missing, and would be present in a desktop OS nowadays.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 59 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 12:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Thomas Würgler/Pagan):
"Actually I was a lot more annoyed at the first releases of OS X (10.1 was what should have been the first release and 10.2 the first really nice release) than of the current state of AmigaOS 4."

From what I heard, it was very buggy indeed. Apple's problem was that time was going on, the release seemed to be as far away as ever, so they just had to get something out or lose a lot of customers.

Sound familiar?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 60 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (cheesegrate):
> [features better in OS4] such as?

The OS4 prerelease SDK has a debugger and a native TCP/IP stack and a Workbench - which can display directories as text and snapshot correctly etc. 3:1 for AmigaOS4. On the other hand the parts that apparently, after years of devlopment (aka "momentarily"), don't work, are biggies and I find that very unnerving: the JIT compiler, that's almost unexcusable, the native graphics system, the driver issues (DMA, USB included), the WarpUp/PowerUp compatibility and so on.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 61 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by mjohnson on 08-Jun-2004 13:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (takemehomegrandma):
>But an OS is never "finished". An OS that is "finished" is equal to *dead*.

That must mean that a "certain other OS" (i.e. the REAL "enemy", to clarify for all the blues/reds out there with their heads stuck too far up their *rses) finished at around 3.11, then? ;)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 62 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 13:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (Don Cox):
Yep!
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 63 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 14:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (Anonymous):
> On the other hand the parts that apparently, after years of devlopment (aka
> "momentarily"), don't work, are biggies and I find that very unnerving: the JIT
> compiler, that's almost unexcusable, the native graphics system, the driver
> issues (DMA, USB included), the WarpUp/PowerUp compatibility and so on.

All that you have stated have already been developed to a great extend AFAIK and I believe will surely make it into the final release.

Also note that the MorphOS project has been started Early 1998 and uses AROS source codes which has been under development for even a couple of years longer.

Hyperion only starting managing the OS4 project since the last couple of years, have done a great job and you can't blindly blame them for what was done during the time Escom or Gateway owned the OS. Both MOS and AmigaOS have seen severe delays, but IMO luckily they all seen to move forward pretty well now.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 64 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 14:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Anonymous):
"Meanwhile other things are falling apart. Having dismissed explanations months ago from non-partisan outsiders about how inferior the OS4 memory model is the Friedens returned to AW.net to say that, oh yeah, if you try to actually _use_ the 1GB of RAM in your AmigaOne with a simple memory allocation, it won't work. Just like Win16, the new Amiga Exec will be telling you that you're "Out of memory" when there's plenty of spare RAM. "

Based on what ? If you mean memory virtualization, it that part of the memory is directly mapped and most of it isn't, then read threads in AW.net. Also note that memory pager is till missign, we are talking about prerelease not finished OS4. I don't know details about that. but I think you are also talking about something which you know nothing.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 65 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (takemehomegrandma):
Do you know hat beta means ? Beta has nothing to do it how many planned features you have implemented. Beta, aplha etc states mean something much more than just number of features implemented.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 66 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 14:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (takemehomegrandma):
Do you know what beta means ? Beta has nothing to do it how many planned features you have implemented. Beta, aplha etc states mean something much more than just number of features implemented.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 67 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Jun-2004 14:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Guest):
"Some MOS users still prefer to replace Ambient even with Workbench 3.9 due to some limitations. Food for thought maybe?"

All OS4 users will have to run the old (68k ?) workbench.
Olaf Barthel explained how such a thing should be replaced alltogether in OS4.1+

Ambient is such a replacement (object oriented, asynchronous, ...).

When it comes to advanced file management users will prefer to use directory Directory Opus (as they do on 3.9, MorphOS, and will do on OS4).
Whenever I use Windows or OSX I'm still lacking a lot of functionalities of Dopus. I hope that Ambient will get closer from dopus in new releases but in the meantime I will still use Directory Opus.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 68 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Jun-2004 14:59 GMT
While I like quick reviews I would like a more detailed one (functionnalities, performance tests) with possibly a comparison with MorphOS on similar hardware(current or even older versions) by unbiased people (Daff, Wilse, Coder, ...).
Instead on focussing on the missing parts people should focus on what is in this release, publish a full list and if possible test each item in a nice review. It is a lot of work but OS4 certainly deserve it.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 69 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 15:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Christophe Decanini):
> All OS4 users will have to run the old (68k ?) workbench.

No, this is already PPC native.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 70 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 15:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Christophe Decanini):
> While I like quick reviews I would like a more detailed one

The guy received his copy a few days ago, what would you expect?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 71 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Jun-2004 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Guest):
I didn't blame the guy, I just say that I expect more detailed review to come.
A nice review is better than many comments from people not knowing what they are talking about.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 72 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Jun-2004 15:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (Guest):
So no to 68k, yes to they will have to run the (old) workbench.
Is asynchwb integrated to the OS or is it still in the wb startup ?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 73 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 16:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (Christophe Decanini):
> Is asynchwb integrated to the OS or is it still in the wb startup?

I hope most components will not get integrated into AmigaOS like you are suggesting. I like AmigaOS' scalability, thus being able to remove features which may be bloat to others would be good IMO. Similarly I don't want an internet browser, office package, etc, etc integrated into the OS like you are suggesting. I want to be able to stay in controll of my personal preferences. I don't see much advantage to that approach.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 74 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 16:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Christophe Decanini):
"When it comes to advanced file management users will prefer to use directory Directory Opus (as they do on 3.9, MorphOS, and will do on OS4)."

Yes, and it would also be interesting to have some other alternatives to Workbench. There is a chance for somebody to come up with some original ideas.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 75 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 16:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Guest):
"> Is asynchwb integrated to the OS or is it still in the wb startup?

I hope most components will not get integrated into AmigaOS like you are suggesting."

I think he means "will the Workbench program work asynchronously in future?"

"Integrated into the OS" means very little in a fully modular OS with a small kernel. Any library that you put in libs: could be said to be "integrated".
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 76 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Jun-2004 16:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (Anonymous):
Quite stupid to put technical information on the net that normal user do not understand.

You can allocate more memory the you can page out on disk, no application will malloc( 400Mb ) inn one go, firstly that be bad, bad, bad way to make programs,

1. allocating 400mb inn one go, menens that memory need to be liner way, if you have other program needing memory then that means that need to swapped out 400mb of ram every time you do task switch will lock you computer!!, and has nothing to do whit what type of multitasking your using...

if you allocate 1mb * 400 then means you my only need to page out 1mb, and your systen will run more smoothly.

Finally no application resever 400mb inn one go,
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 77 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Jun-2004 17:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Emeric SH):
Stop tolling you know it not a finished product right?
*****
For anyone how have installed OS40 pre, you can find updates on hyperion s web page....!!!!!!
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 78 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jun-2004 17:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (hooligan/dcs):
The console rules! Bash forever :P
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 79 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Jun-2004 17:43 GMT
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=4986&forum=14

Status update on AmigaOS4.0
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 80 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by freaks on 08-Jun-2004 17:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Guest):
it's true that mos is really unstable and crashy.
i've sold my pegasos, and i'll probley end up buying an aone/os4 bundle soon.
and what decided me to abort the "pegasos exeperience" was especialy the philosophy behind morphos.. there's lot of thing i hated while being a little morphos user, like for exemple, no dialog with users they just have to shut up and wait and accept. asking questions is prohibed and you'll never get an answer anyway.
this is far from the os4 team philosophy which looks likes just "normal" to me.. no secrets.. ppl are kept in the light, they know what happening around the project and the path the os4 will intend to follow. things looks open and normal.

on mos side, i was under the impression i was considered more as a nuisance than a normal user ,someone who helped the morphos movment by just buying their product.

and above all it was really crashy.. and instead of releasing small patchs about the Enormous obvious bugs there was in mos 1.4, the mos team just make us understood: " shut up, and wait.. thoses things/bugs will get corected in mos 1.5 so wait...
But! when you ask for when is mos 1.5 ? you got no answers ;)
so basicaly i was with a buggy crashy system, and without even knowing when things would get usable..better..


this was just unbelievable behavior. i sold my peg at once ;)
who do they think they are? micro$oft? only micro$oft don't care that much about its user base.

the minimum for users like me who supported and bought their product was to keep me waiting.

- by telling me what was happening and how thoses horrible bugs would get corrected so i could finaly be able to use the peg really..
- or eventually to releases the patch (that were already done internaly by mos team) but no.. they just decided to keep users waiting with bugs problems and all, without even bothering to inform the user base about how long it will take to correct the memory black holes and vortex there was inside mos 1.4! the memory gestion was really messy.


i guess they thought something like. " why they need to know anyway? they're just miserable users" so they didn't cared..
at least its how it looks like.

i mean this is important for me, if someone could have told me this, maybe i would have never bought a peg.
i hope mos team/ genesi's philosophy and attitude will change,
coz i just can't accept it like it is today.

that's just my personal opinion and i'm free to express it.
no trolling or i dunno what other label you could stick on this post, i was just relating here " my pegasos experience (around 7months iirc)

i thought it could be useful to share it, so you ppl considering buying a peg could have another view to help to decide or not.

choice is up to you.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 81 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Jun-2004 17:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Amon_Re):
I totally agree, note some of the bash features are integrated inn AmigaDOS40,
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 82 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-Jun-2004 18:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (freaks):
I don't think MorphOS will ever be a success, they way they are moving thing over from 68k to PPC, will inn the end make lots of trouble for them an break lots of older MorphOS programs when they move their extentions over to QBOX, until now this extensions are inner ABOX and thats where going to stay until they have successfully made replacements for what ever legacy there is for AmigaOS API.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 83 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 18:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (Kjetil):
> I don't think MorphOS will ever be a success, they way they are moving thing over from 68k to PPC, will inn the end make lots of trouble for them

I'm confident that the skills of their developers far exceed the skills of any ann commentator (let alone you, Kjetil ;), so let's just assume that they know what they are doing, design-wise. They have more experience with PPC than anybody else in the Amiga market. Success is relative, I don't think this will ever go beyond a niche market, not against Windows, Mac and Linux.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 84 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Jun-2004 18:19 GMT
Some people really need to get clues or find something else than posting crap on ANN.
All the nonsense posted will backfire and we will end up with a lot of nonsense said on the 2 systems. At the end we will all loose.

I have been using MorphOS for a long time and extensively.
It is rock stable if the application you run is not hitting. It is really easy to sort out the applications not behaving properly with the debug.
With being an early MorphOS betatester I found 2 occurences of system component hitting. I have contacted the developers, the problem has been taken care immediately, corrected and I have been warmly welcomed to provide a bug report.
If I have ever the chance to run OS4 I would really appreciate to have the same level of support.

You may have had problems with specific applications, you may have had a problem with having your request ignored for whatever reason but because you post anonymously here I doubt that it is either true or that you really tried to get your problem solved with communicating with the developers.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 85 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 18:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (freaks):
> really unstable and crashy ... really crashy ... buggy crashy system

Don't overdo it, that just make you look like a moron. I've seen your rants on a MorphOS mailing list (I believe), you need medication. Developer teams should be treated with respect, and if you don't give that, you will be ignored.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 86 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 18:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Kjetil):
> no application will malloc( 400Mb ) inn one go, firstly that be bad, bad, bad way to make programs

No application will ever need more than 640 KB, that is bad, bas bad way to program ;) Seriously, if you need 400 MB in one chunk, and the system has gigabytes, then obviously the allocation is to be made in one piece (for example for a huge scan, allocted in one block). If you make 64 MB allocations, you seriously fragment the memory. Also, segmentation is not good for algorithms, it costs performance.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 87 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Toto on 08-Jun-2004 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (freaks):
->Freaks

Believe me, you'll be even more disappointed by AmigaOS 4. I've been able to "betatest" both MorphOS and AmigaOS 4 and they are both far from finished, and the worst is AmigaOS 4 which is very very far from being finished.

Seriously, let's face the reality, the Amiga (or Amiga like stuffs) is dead! That's the reality! Both AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS will not be "finished" as an end user understand it before years (apparently MorphOS will be in a "finished" state before AmigaOS 4 from what we can see now, but it'll still take years!).

So my advice is that if you've been disappointed by MorphOS, then don't buy an AOne with AOS4, you'll be for sure even more disappointed. So don't waste your money in that very expensive and useless stuff and realize that the Amiga as you want it to be is dead and that you should buy a PC (you're not forced to use Windows btw).
But this is just an advise, so you can decide to follow it or not and so if you really want, you can decide to waste your money in a very expensive and useless AOne + AOS4 and be disappointed again... Just note that you've been warned and if you still decide to buy one, don't be (and I won't be myself) surprised if you come here again posting a similar post about AOne/AOS4 than the one you posted today about Peg/MOS.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 88 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by freaks on 08-Jun-2004 18:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (Anonymous):
" Don't overdo it, that just make you look like a moron. I've seen your rants on a MorphOS mailing list (I believe), you need medication. Developer teams should be treated with respect, and if you don't give that, you will be ignored. "

say what you want, search excuses or whatever saying i'm mad or the likes. i don't care. i had this thing to say, and i did it.

and btw, just because you're saying i was ranting on some mos ML,
you can say too i helped to report bug and all a lot.
for exemple, i founded a big bug in ambient and mos's way of handling memory . (moving windows too much or opening too much windows caused HUGE memory fragmentation ! really )
this bug was really a shame, the cherry on the top of the cake ;)
so obvious bug, and still in all years of mos development noone have never noticed it before?
how come ?

i mean common, opening *or* moving few windows (less than 30~40) should never absolutly never do black hole of 50mb, 80mb, 100mb !! and more in the memory !


i dn't see clearly what do you mean by saying i was ranting on som mos ML ... i'm not sure it's really true.. or i would have get banned really fast if i was really a nuisance on the ml ..
anyway don't forget to say i helped too .

this is that bug i was speaking in my previous post , that mos team refused to correct.
refused to supply a patch while waiting for mos 1.5(which is still not here ! i really hope for em the mos1.4.2 release corected this)
anyhow, so obvious bug shouldn't be able to make their way into a system which in at the version number 1.x
opening / moving windows is the really basic of nowdays os..
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 89 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Lilo on 08-Jun-2004 18:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (freaks):
>for exemple, i founded a big bug in ambient and mos's way of handling memory . (moving windows
>too much or opening too much windows caused HUGE memory fragmentation ! really )
>this bug was really a shame, the cherry on the top of the cake ;)
>so obvious bug, and still in all years of mos development noone have never noticed it before?
>how come ?

From what I know and i've experienced myself, this bug was:

1) Only present in MorphOS 1.4
2) Corrected since MorphOS 1.4.1

And sorry to say it to you, but you seem to consider it as an obvious bug, but seeing the things you need to do to see it, I bet that very few people noticed it (in fact I don't only bet, it's obvious as very few seemed to report it).

Also similarly severe bug like that, even if they seem "unacceptable" for a "stable" OS release, did and does appear not that rarely in other OS existing like Windows, Linux or anything else.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 90 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (freaks):
> for exemple, i founded a big bug in ambient and mos's way of handling memory

YES I KNOW ;) You have posted that bug ad nauseam on the mailing list and all forums, oviously assuming that a bug must be reported on a daily basis to sink in. You don't seem to realize that beeing petulant and obnoxious doesn't get you anywhere, it puts people off. Be NICE and FRIENDLY and sound SANE and RATIONAL.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 91 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by freaks on 08-Jun-2004 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 87 (Toto):
you just did't got me.
the bugs and problems were here that's true,
but that's not the main reason behind the fact i've sold my peg.

i mean, i knew bugs and problems would be there, i was expecting em in fact.. mostly due to the amiga situationm and the pre/beta status of mos.

so i knew i'll have problems and bugs.
what really deceived me was morphos's officials attitude
no user support, no answer to my question and all. and fu**ing top secret attitude about mos and etc and etc.

i'm using amigas since 1993 i know what amiga are.

and finally , i simply can't stand this sentence " amiga is dead " ????
where did you've seen that?
it was never as much alive as theses last years.. new mobo, new OSes
pci, agp, sdram,ddr, ppc,usb .. there's a lots of things happening around amiga and that's nice.

so just open your eyes and you'll notice amiga is not dead !!
damn it ;)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 92 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by freaks on 08-Jun-2004 19:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 89 (Lilo):
excuse me but when you see ppl saying ' mos is really stable"
but, for me i didn't shared this feeling.
i've felt mos very unstable and crashing a lot, so i tryed to figure out what could be the problem, i tryed lots of things to hunt down the horrible problem that were making my os that unstable and that's how i discovered about this memory bug.
the problem was simply mos and ambient themselves.
seeing this kind of problems could reach version 1.4 that easly, was scary. but the most scary part was genesi/mos team, already having the correction but refusing to give it until next mos release (1.4.1 as you seems to point it out)

and this was only the visible part of the iceberg ;)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 93 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Jun-2004 19:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (freaks):
It works for me :P
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 94 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 08-Jun-2004 19:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (freaks):
>or i would have get banned really fast if i was really a nuisance on the ml ..


Not so. You were a constant source of annoyance and a huge waster of bandwidth. Though some of your points and your reports were useful, they were also buried by your refusal to say your piece and then make way for other viewpoints and opinions.

Only by the patience and forbearance of the list owner and the core developers were you still on the list after constantly abusing it and wasting the time of not only the core developers but of everyone else who must use the list. you may need to learn a little patience and get a little perspective on what the needs and priorities of others are before you can handle something like that responsibly.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 95 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 19:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (freaks):
Take the pills again, it isn't working. Man, if you go on like that, you will have a heart attack even before OS4 final is released ;)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 96 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 19:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 95 (Anonymous):
*Even* before...? I'd say it would be more remarkable to have a heart attack after one has already died of old age.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 97 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by freaks on 08-Jun-2004 19:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (greenboy):
" You were a constant source of annoyance and a huge waster of bandwidth. "

- i bought the product.
- i helped for free.
- i even helped on the mos internationalisation by developping with a friend some tools to support non-latin languages on mos (such as russian, chinese ...)
- i translated the whole website pegasos-japan for free !
because genesi was sending some pegasos to japan and wanted to have a website peg-japan... i did all the translation from english to japanese for free.

i'm surely forgeting lots of points, but already that's quite amazing to have free hand, good will like this,
and you say " You were a constant source of annoyance and a huge waster of bandwidth. "

well thanks man ;)


and btw, i almost never spoke with you greenboy.. how come you can judge me like this without even having spoke with me ?
if someone thinks bad of me, you will do so too?
don't you have your own personal judgement ?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 98 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 08-Jun-2004 19:40 GMT
freaks,

I know you did some things and most likely have your heart in the right place. But I report what I saw on the list the way it was seen by a majority of people commenting on it. Notably, the MOS coders who wer flooded by the often non-relevant or hyper-repetitive info that you were shoveling through the list - this has little to do with whether one agrees or does not with what that info was.

Just try to have a little perspective on other people's positions, and not just your own. You already have a great thing going on otherwise! Honest!
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 99 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by freaks on 08-Jun-2004 20:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (greenboy):
honest honest...
honestly, i'll tell you, im kind of sad to have sold my peg, coz in some way it's still an amiga ng.. ppc ..
but, i simply could'nt bear the attitude of mos officials.

i'd prefer to be still on mos, (in comparison with peecee or mac not a1/os4)
despite the bugs and all, it's ok.

but let mos users without feedback, without patchs to correct the problems, and without some date for the release of patchs,
without nothing but a bugged mos, i only had to leave.

i now place more faith in os4 and aros (ppc) projects.

just for the exemple take a look at how open seems the situation on os4 side for exemple:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1496

*now that's true feedback* it excuse the delays, the problems tied to the pre/beta status. and the users are in the light.. users knows where things are going..
that is fundamental, at least for me.
and most of all, they plan to release updates and corections when they are available.. and not waiting for os4.1.2 to made it available.

i really think mos officials should take exemple on the os4 officials..
anyway i'm gonna buy an a1/os4 and i'll see for myself.
i already knows i'm gonna enjoy it btw.
i'm used to test OSes.. i tested : lots of unixes, almost all version of windoz, almost all version of macos, i knew qnx ages before amigaosXL, tested beos, os2/warp, and of course my all time favourite:
the amiga.. all flavor.. even bought a peg just to test it.
so i already knows what to expect from os4 from what i've read and saw .
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 100 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Jacek Piszczek on 08-Jun-2004 20:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (freaks):
> for exemple, i founded a big bug in ambient and mos's way of handling memory

Now... don't think too much of yourself.

Knowing the effect doesn' necessary mean that you know where the bug really is (from a dev pov). If we knew the reason at that time it would have been fixed right away (the fix made to 1.4.2 btw). Sending the same report several times doesn't help anyone solve the problem, it's just annoying. And it's even more annoying when the bugreport is just a stupid rant and doesn't contain any useful info, just like your "bug reports".

For the record (tm): the bug had NOTHING to do with opening/closing windows. That was just a sideeffect.
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