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[News] New web browser for Amiga-like systems in developmentANN.lu
Posted on 10-Jun-2004 18:15 GMT by The Paihia Team63 comments
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The Paihia Team would like to announce the development of their new web browser, named Paihia. We hope to have an initial release by the end of 2004. Amiga-like systems and their users are crying out for a standards compliant browser. Despite all the modern web standards being very old (CSS2 is 7 years old, HTML4 is 5 years old) Amiga-like systems still lack in this area.

The leading objective of the Paihia authors (there are now 3 of us) are the implementation of real web standards - we aren't interestd in partial implementations, or bits here, and bits there. All 3 of us have extensive experience with modern web standards and we are particularly keen on being able to use our Amiga-like systems with the web, both to their full potential. HTML 4, Java/ECMAScript 1.5, CSS2.1, and DOM level 3 will feature in our initial release, with us then looking at more recent XML-based web standards which are still not widely used on the web for subsequent development.

Although work has been ongoing for 5 months now (and only recently with 3 developers), we still have a significant amount to complete. Having said that, we've been monitoring the progress of AmiZilla, and looking at their recent progress update on ANN, we are satisfied that Paihia is at a somewhat more advanced stage.

Paihia will be shareware. The application has been written from scratch and does not utilise any existing web content engines. Although this seems duplication of work, our progress tells us it isn't.

We should mention that we all lean slightly towards MorphOS and AROS, however, economics tell us there will more than likely be a version for AmigaOS3, and OS4.

In the next few months we'll be making public a website, with screenshots, of the new browser.

Keep watching!

The Paihia Team

New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 1 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 16:53 GMT
http://vgr.com/browser/
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 2 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 10-Jun-2004 16:58 GMT
So you think about becoming a selling the browser at some point, being that you have MorphOS/AROS closer to your hearts,

I be happy to follow the progress hope you successful where to so many have failed, :o)

Time will tell right?
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 3 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 10-Jun-2004 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Anonymous):
Judging by this list the future looks bright for new attempts! :-)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 4 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 17:28 GMT
amiga-like.........*sighhhhhh*

There's no place like home.

There's nothing like amiga.

You can run its executables, you can copy the gadgets, you can even copy the directory stucture an names, but amiga-like? Nahh....just the neighbour who decided to build a home which just looks like yours, but when you step out a taxi, drunk, at 3am you still know what your home is because: "There's no place like home".
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 5 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 17:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Well when Commod died, also the Amiga died. Today we only have Amiga like System except the old Classics, which are the last "Amigas" Pretty simple...
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 6 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by damn on 10-Jun-2004 17:42 GMT
coding a fully modern web browser from scratch today (and also keeping it up-to-date) would imo probably be a lot more demanding than porting khtml or mozilla. remember that khtml/mozilla has been worked on for ages, and contributed by hundreds of people. it's undoubtfully a lot of hard work in any case, but i think a port of one of the existing modern web-engines would be the winner in the long run.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 7 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by tokai on 10-Jun-2004 17:57 GMT
what a useless fake (but for this I have to admit it's well written... for a moment I thought it's real). But was it not enough when your other fake/newsitem was deleted already?

regards,
tokai
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 8 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
> Well when Commod died, also the Amiga died. Today we only have Amiga like
> System except the old Classics, which are the last "Amigas" Pretty simple...

That's an interesting theory. Following your theory: When your parents die, you die......!?

When your parents die, you're on your own and have to look after yourself, this goes with ups and downs especially when your parents die too soon, but in the end you learn how to manage yourself no matter if others claim to be your brother in order to try to claim a part, if not everything, of the inheritance.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 9 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 18:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
Idiotic Comparison and you know that. There was no Development since the bancrupcty (3.5/3.9 where just simple add ons then a real update to the OS)
And now we have 2 PPC Amiga alike System + an Emulator (and somewhere between Amithlon which is unfortunatelly also dead now)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 10 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 10-Jun-2004 19:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
For chose-your-deity's sake, drop it already!
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 11 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by ANR RULEZ on 10-Jun-2004 19:29 GMT
I don't believe in this.
Although it would be nice to have a decent browser :)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 12 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Jope on 10-Jun-2004 19:29 GMT
If this is true, then great! I'll be waiting eagerly for your demo version..

If this is fake, then don't you have something better to do?
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 13 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 19:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Funny that you call it an idiotic comparison because this is exactly what happened.

Maybe not from your perspective, because when you claim that the only amiga is one with custom chips and an 68k cpu, so you can justify your claim that amiga is dead and AmigaOS4, a port to PPC and continuation of the AmigaOS3.1 stage of developement is only Amigaish and not amiga.

Following this yet-another-excuse-to-not-recognise-AmigaOS4-as-the-continuation-of-where-the-developement-has-stopped-thus-fully-amiga-instead-of-only-"amigaish"-like-you-know-what-"os" theory, LinuxPPC is not linux, only linuxish since it's a port from the 86x Linux.

But then again, you'll probably come up with some other excuse that you cannot compare linux with AmigaOS because your amiga-is-dead (realy really)-and-""amigish""-oses-like-AROS-and-MorphOS-rul3zzzz (TM) shortsighted view.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 14 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Bobson on 10-Jun-2004 19:41 GMT
A fully standards compliant browser would be fantastic :-) I cant wait to see what you come up with!
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 15 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 19:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Fabio Alemagna):
Yes please, otherwise we have to invent yet another phrase besides from "amiga-like", "amiga-spirit", "only true next amiga", "amiga-ish" to pretend something we just aren't., right Fabio?

But i've got to give you guys some credit, you're miles-ahead (TM) in finding excuses to connect yourself to AmigaOS.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 16 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 10-Jun-2004 19:55 GMT
Anonymous posters are always right. If not for reason, then for their overwhelming numbers.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 17 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by tokai on 10-Jun-2004 19:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (tokai):
i take that back.



ppl, don't use anonymizer! else it can easily happen that someone else will think you're a troll. :)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 18 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 10-Jun-2004 19:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
Don't you have anything better to do? No, MorphOS (or AROS in that matter) is NOT
AmigaOS but it's close enough for me, a VERY long time Amiga user, to replace my
Amiga. I still run the same applications, plus many newer, in a stable, fast and
by far more modern environment. Get over it. I do not care if you think it's just
a copy or anything, I only care about the fact that it suits the job I want it to
do just PERFECTLY. And no, NO other OS, besides AOS itself, can do that for me.
If AOS4 was released 3 years ago, I would use it full time. Now it will be an OS
running alongside MOS.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 19 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 10-Jun-2004 21:44 GMT
Paihia.. what an idiotic name for a web browser :)) Can't you figure out a better name?
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 20 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 10-Jun-2004 22:34 GMT
god, you people are enough to make deevelopers puke;...

gook work guys, hpefully the holy grail will be achieved...
keep it up an that goes to the amizilla and jamiga teams as well...
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 21 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 11-Jun-2004 02:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (tokai):
So you can confirm that this news-item is not a fake...?
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 22 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by The_Editor on 11-Jun-2004 03:09 GMT
Fully Standards complient .... Goodie

( Who's standards ? )
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 23 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 11-Jun-2004 03:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (The_Editor):
The goal should be w3c standards.

-- gary_c
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 24 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 11-Jun-2004 04:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>Now it will be an OS running alongside MOS.

I wouldn't say "alongside" since:

a) You will not be able to run them on the same hardware.

b) The development, marketing and forensic efforts behind these operating systems are in direct opposition to each other which is rather counter productive for the small and far from profitable Amiga market.

Whichever of these operating systems that you may prefer, none of them are running "alongside" of the other, IMO.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 25 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 11-Jun-2004 04:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Senex):
It is not fake.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 26 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 11-Jun-2004 05:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Sammy Nordström):
Whichever of these operating systems that you may prefer, none of them are running "alongside" of the other, IMO.

That's how you've decided to look at things. Other people have other opinions, obviously.

-- gary_c
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 27 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 11-Jun-2004 05:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (gary_c):
Like I said; IMO.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 28 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 11-Jun-2004 05:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Sammy Nordström):
"a) You will not be able to run them on the same hardware."

You may be able to in the future. Who can tell?


"b) The development, marketing and forensic efforts behind these operating systems are in direct opposition to each other which is rather counter productive for the small and far from profitable Amiga market."

I doubt if "forensic" was the word you wanted.

Both teams are about the same size, several people are working on parts for both OSes, both companies are small, all the people involved are Amiga enthusiasts. Both teams hope to sell to far more than the current Amiga market.


"Whichever of these operating systems that you may prefer, none of them are running "alongside" of the other, IMO."

They look pretty well neck-and-neck to me.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 29 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 11-Jun-2004 05:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (itix):
"It is not fake."

If it's not a fake, then it's excellent news. The more attempts the more chance that one will make it to the finish line, and we'll have a decent browser.

I'd definitely buy one which complies with today's standards.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 30 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 11-Jun-2004 06:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Don Cox):
>"a) You will not be able to run them on the same hardware."
>
>You may be able to in the future. Who can tell?

We know enough to not make any hardware purchase and expect support for both operating systems. At this point, we simply *have to* assume that we will never be able to dual boot these two operating systems and choose hardware based on which OS we prefer and which OS we can be without.

>"b) The development, marketing and forensic efforts behind these operating
>systems are in direct opposition to each other which is rather counter
>productive for the small and far from profitable Amiga market."
>
>I doubt if "forensic" was the word you wanted.

Maybe "legal actions" is a better term, please excuse my english. However, I doubt our different views on things would be due to the language barrier.

>Both teams are about the same size, several people are working on parts for
>both OSes, both companies are small, all the people involved are Amiga
>enthusiasts. Both teams hope to sell to far more than the current Amiga
>market.

So, beeing equal makes them less of competitors and more like partners working alongside with each other? I'm sorry but all of the above is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, the fact that they are opposing each others efforts with basicly every means available remains. They are opposing each others development efforts by making exclusive deals with third parties and by inventing their own software and hardware standards. They are opposing each others marketing efforts with public mud slinging and "parasitic marketing". Most devastating for all, they are even opposing each others existence with legal means. Tell me, how could any of this possibly look like they are working "alongside" each other? I mean, working "alongside" someone means to me that they are either cooperating or atleast staying out of each others way.

>"Whichever of these operating systems that you may prefer, none of them are
>running "alongside" of the other, IMO."
>
>They look pretty well neck-and-neck to me.

It seems more like they are going head-to-head to me.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 31 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2004 06:29 GMT
If this is no fake, I will surely buy this product.

Leaning towards MOS/AROS suggests it's a MUI program.
Smart choice.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 32 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 11-Jun-2004 06:32 GMT
"The application has been written from scratch and does not utilise any existing web content engines. Although this seems duplication of work, our progress tells us it isn't."


Looks like "Amiga" genius is at work, yet again!!!!

One or both will succeed!!


AmigaOne! Pre-AOS4.0! We've already succeeded!
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 33 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 11-Jun-2004 08:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Emeric SH):
Another matter is if it gets ever finished. Surely if it works better than my IBrowse 1.22 or Lynx, and supports CSS, I'll pay for this new browser.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 34 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 11-Jun-2004 09:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Sammy Nordström):
Do you really think that anybody cares about your opinion? I personally don't give
a fuck.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 35 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 11-Jun-2004 09:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
neither do i, shut up spamface
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 36 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by hnl_dk on 11-Jun-2004 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Sammy Nordström):
IIRC does Alkis an classic Amiga with PPC ... He didn't say that he would use both OS on the same computer ...
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 37 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 11-Jun-2004 11:26 GMT
To the developers: pretty please make an OS4 version. a good browser is something I'd definately pay money for. :) and btw, please ignore the guys giving you crap for liking "amiga-like" systems.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 38 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 11-Jun-2004 11:34 GMT
Btw, is this browser named after the town Paihia in New Zealand? Just wondering.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 39 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by hnl_dk on 11-Jun-2004 11:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (James Carroll):
Btw, is this browser named after the town Paihia in New Zealand? Just wondering.
Was also wondering about that ... Especially as they use yahoo.com.au for their email adress :O)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 40 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 11-Jun-2004 12:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Atheist2):
AmigaOne! Pre-AOS4.0! We've already succeeded!
____________

YEs, succed to a tombstone OS!
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 41 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-Jun-2004 13:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Eva):
Like RiscOS and MorphOS?
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 42 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 11-Jun-2004 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Eva):
eva shut up
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 43 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 11-Jun-2004 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Kjetil):
kjetl shut up
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 44 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 11-Jun-2004 14:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
I really can't understand that attitude. I still can't understand those people who try to say that eg. A500 is the only real Amiga :P I still ccan't understand why current MAC's are called MAC and PC is called PC if last Amigas were those released by Commodore ? I still have not heard any good explanation to that, and I think no-one can never give a good explanation to that because that's bullshit.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 45 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 11-Jun-2004 16:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
You posted your opinion, I responded to it by posting mine. What did you expect? I mean, stating your opinion is basicly asking for other people to state theirs. You're not the only one entitled to having an opinion, you know.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 46 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 11-Jun-2004 16:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (cheesegrate):
I was just wondering wether you cared about my opinion or not... Well, thank you. Now I know.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 47 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Crumb // AAT on 11-Jun-2004 21:49 GMT
Good luck! I hope you release versions for OS3.x, OS4.x, MOS and AROS :-)

It's a hard and very difficult job. I hope you succeed where many others have failed :-)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 48 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 11-Jun-2004 22:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Sammy Nordström):
I didn't post an opinion, I posted a fucking fact: The way *I* use my machines.
You have no right to tell me what to do with them.
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 49 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 12-Jun-2004 03:05 GMT
If were talking 'amiga-like' systems, then we should see BeOS, pOS, Amithlon, and OSX ports too (along with ports to the actual OS called Amiga OS too, just for name sake value ya know ;) ). They all have taken influence from the Amiga, just ask Dave Haynie :-)
New web browser for Amiga-like systems in development : Comment 50 of 63ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 12-Jun-2004 07:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (damn):
coding a fully modern web browser from scratch today (and also keeping it up-to-date) would imo probably be a lot more demanding than porting khtml or mozilla. remember that khtml/mozilla has been worked on for ages, and contributed by hundreds of people. it's undoubtfully a lot of hard work in any case, but i think a port of one of the existing modern web-engines would be the winner in the long run.

Interesting point. There are 2 sets of work to consider in both ways (porting or writing a new browser). There is the initial porting effort, then the maintenance effort.

Porting KHTML is a huge task - first you'd need to re-implement a good chunk of Qt, the libraries that KDE runs on top of. It took a large open source team 3 months to implement a third of it, before they gave up when Trolltech released a GPL version. How long would it take the 3 of us?

Similarly, Mozilla is enormous, and it needs to ported with future versions in mind - that is, you need to be able to compile future versions straight out of the box. Although I've never looked at the Mozilla sources, I assume this means re-implementing a Linux/X or win32 wrapper. Again, 2 more enormous APIs.

Writing a web browser from scratch will probably take a similar amount of time to the above two porting efforts.

Now, for the maintenance. You correctly say that we have to keep the browser up to date. But web standards today are very static - the last major standard that had any effect on the web came out 7 years ago. Today, web standards move very very slowly. The new recently published XML-standards will probably take 3-4 years before they're widely used.

On the other hand, new KHTML and Mozilla versions are released all the time. Any porting effort would have to ensure the new versions were ported too, involving constant effort. Paihia doesn't have this problem because the source is controlled by the authors.

So while the initial effort may be similar, the maintenance effort for ported applications is much bigger.
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