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[News] What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the ArticiaANN.lu
Posted on 14-Jun-2004 23:52 GMT by JohnV68 comments
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Here's what Benjamin Herrenschmidt, a respectable linuxPPC kernel hacker thinks about the Articia. <A HREF="http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2004/06/msg00430.html">Here is some interesting thread about the Articia. Note that Benjamin Herrenschmidt is a clued linuxPPC kernel hacker with lot of experience. Here's what he thinks about the Articia "features":

It's basically incompetent northbridge design.

No, that means the HW is a Piece Of Shit !

Cache coherency is a basic feature of anything claiming to be used as a desktop machine.

What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 1 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by not this again... on 14-Jun-2004 22:07 GMT
Didn't we already cover this?? Fine. It doesn't work with linux. Move on and live with it. We're not USING linux!
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 2 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 14-Jun-2004 22:37 GMT
Actually, I have to thank both Ole-Egil and Benjamin for finally having this argument on a public forum clogged with people who know what they're talking about, instead of fudslingers and wannabes, myself included.

Dear G-d, when everyone actually know what's "buggy" or "different," we'll actually be able to determine if it matters to us! Shock! Horror!

Anyone know what "BAT" decrypts to, so I don't have to slog through 500 Google hits about cost-savings through the use of Linux in the guano industry?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 3 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 14-Jun-2004 22:58 GMT
That's actually an interesting read. It appears that the "bug" is actually a feature! It appears it makes certain ways of doing things with DMA impossible and should never have been done that way on a PPC processor. Maybe they were used to dealing with X86?

coldfire
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 4 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 14-Jun-2004 23:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (coldfire):
That's actually an interesting read. It appears that the "bug" is actually a feature! It appears it makes certain ways of doing things with DMA impossible and should never have been done that way on a PPC processor. Maybe they were used to dealing with X86?

I'm not entirely sure about that. It sounds like it may imply certain things can never be cached even when they should, but you'll notice, for instance, FreeBSD didn't take quite the same hit from the K7-chipset AGP misunderstanding that Linux did, for some rather subtle details of implementation.

Sounds like Mai scaled up an 'embedded' design, Linux scaled 'across' from readily available x86 desktop hardware, and now we're watching two worlds collide, while Mai's "kernel division" does appear to be MIA (if you assume they should've been the ones keeping this from becoming the ongoing PR disaster it is in the first place). Obviously everyone else's hardware is better 'tuned' to work with existing code out of the gate, but it's been impossible to gauge the impact/benefit/loss of the Articia's arrangement without knowing what the heck it really was.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 5 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans (Hyperion) on 15-Jun-2004 00:08 GMT
There are no problems with the MAI northbridge, in fact you will see os4 and the linux kernal using the extra features that MAI provides.

On the other hand our motion against Bill Buck has been submitted to the Belgian Courts today.

Party on!
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 6 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 00:14 GMT
Holy fuck, this IS funny. I gotta give props to the 'Nincompoops But Believers' for having the balls to argue over PPC hardware matters with benh of all people. OTOH, they prolly didn't know who they were talking to...

What benh says goes. It's mostly thanks to him that there IS a PPC flavor of Linux, at least as far as Macs go, and when I get a new PPC distro one of the first things I do is to swap distro packed kernels for the latest benh version.
If he can't 'use' the 'feature' without performance penalties, then no game porting hackers can, even if they're employed by a Feature List Publishing company that has licensed The Trademark. Neither can an abrasive yobbo with a little computer shop, a monopoly on motherboards, and computer knowledge that's limited to shoving A1200's in boxes.

The Hyperion/Eyetech Believers didn't believe Genesi. They didn't believe Terrasoft. They didn't believe Tratech. They didn't believe de Raadt until he mentioned the word 'Pegasos' (1, with the Articia). They didn't even believe Mai themselves when they yanked DMA from their own marketing. Will they believe benh? No, because Eyetech's Teron is all they're allowed to buy.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 7 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 02:47 GMT
Funny to see those amiga fanatics polluting linux threads with their religion.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 8 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 03:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (coldfire):
You have no clue who "benh" is now, do you?
Nice try, but... better inform yourself before posting crap.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 9 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 15-Jun-2004 03:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
Funny to see these anti-amiga fanatics polluting threads, too. Did you even read the Linux list posts? I'm not an AmigaOne advocate by any stretch, but it seems to me Ole-Egil and the other guys trying to get Linux going on the AmigaOne are just working with what they've been given. I didn't see any "religion" in that thread, only information on their set-up and questions about how to proceed. Talk about cheap shots.

-- gary_c
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 10 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 03:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans (Hyperion)):
Sorry, but nice try. The REAL Ben Hermans has a "trusted user" account here at ann. Please go away.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 11 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 03:35 GMT
If we believe for a moment that "it doesn't support cache coherency" is the magic Articia feature, that means Ben and Alan both spat nonsense over the past year about it. Not having cache coherent DMA means paying a high price for all DMA transfers, and adding complexity to your OS. It's silly even to call that a feature, let alone claim as Ben Hermans did that it makes MAI's hardware faster than x86 chipsets.

Worse, as is pointed out in that thread, Linux _does_ support architectures without cache-coherent DMA. If MAI wanted the Articia included in that group it should have been the work of moments to do so. So why did they insist on trying to treat it as if they had cache-coherent DMA? Incompetence? A deliberate attempt to mislead people into thinking it was (in Benh's thoughts) a real desktop chip rather than just cheap embedded tech?

Some people asked, when the Articia "feature" was last the subject of an ANN thread, if we would see performance indicators from a fixed Linux kernel, to know how much performnace difference MAI's feature really is. I think you have there your explanation for the foot-dragging at MAI. If the "feature" is the absence of cache-coherency it would be a LOT slower and it remains to be seen how much that cripples OS4 once the PowerPC port is complete.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 12 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by SLayeRDK on 15-Jun-2004 05:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Anonymous):
And this Ben Hermans (Hyperion) (203.217.84.53) is in australia ;).
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 13 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Leo on 15-Jun-2004 05:37 GMT
>There are no problems with the MAI northbridge, in fact you will see os4 and the linux kernal using the extra features that MAI provides.

>On the other hand our motion against Bill Buck has been submitted to the Belgian Courts today.

I saw many (stupid posts) here... I thought people were starting to think before posting but well, not really ;)

... . . . ... . . . ... . . .

Leo.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 14 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 05:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (SLayeRDK):
erk! I bloody hope not.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 15 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jun-2004 05:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (not this again...):
"Didn't we already cover this?? Fine. It doesn't work with linux. Move on and live with it. We're not USING linux!"

If Eyetech want to sell boards in any quantity, they have to have a working Linux. Trying to sell a non-standard board with an unknown OS is almost impossible. Customers will want to see something they are familiar with.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 16 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jun-2004 05:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Anonymous):
"Sorry, but nice try. The REAL Ben Hermans has a "trusted user" account here at ann. Please go away."

And he probably knows how to spell "kernel".
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 17 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2004 06:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
Actually, I wasn't having this argument with Benjamin, I was actually discussing Eyetech+MAIs totally incompetent Linux kernel porting effort with him (yes, you're expected to give away a few boards if you want professional help these days).
Benjamin seems extremely pissed off at Eyetech, and I can understand why.
And if Benjamin says it's going to be awkward, I believe him. That doesn't mean that OS4 can't do this with no extra penalty, though. It just means that Linux isn't going to be the fastest OS on the hardware... Shame, but that's how it'll be.

But back to the actual argument:
The problem with the Debian-PowerPC mailing list is that every time someone mentions the AmigaOne, Sven Luther has to throw dirt at it and then mention the Pegasos. He then proceeds to claiming that "but I don't know much about what's happened the last year". Well, if you don't know, don't say. Clearly a badly hidden agenda. THIS is what the argument was about.

Now, had OS4 been out in the open (including DMA drivers), I could have just pointed to that and ended the argument once and for all. But no, I can't. And had MAI still done any kernel work we might have HAD a shot at getting into Debian (see earlier in the same thread, where Ben and friends list things that are required to get in. Basically we need a working 2.6 kernel, which I do not have).
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 18 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 15-Jun-2004 06:14 GMT
Calling back and exchanging/hw fixing all the existing AmigaONE boards would be a devastating blow to Eyetech. IMO that's why the look for a software solution was so desperate.

Now it seems, according to OS4 developers, that there is such a way. I can see no problem, if all available operating systems will have an Articia specific driver. Performance penalties/Gains are yet to be seen, and will be debated endlessly in these forums, I' sure. But who will write drivers for other Operating Systems than OS4? Hyperion definitely won't, they stated it just too many times.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 19 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 06:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Emeric SH):
and how aqbout all the customers that were told there was no problem until their warranty ran out?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 20 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 15-Jun-2004 06:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
That's precisely what we're witnissin i guess
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 21 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 15-Jun-2004 06:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans (Hyperion)):
Heh, well it's been quiet on the courtcases front lately :P
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 22 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 15-Jun-2004 06:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
...

http://www.learntoread.com

What benh is saying does not exclude the ArticiaS working with other OS systems, infact, he clarified what the problem with linux actually was.

Idiot..
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 23 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 15-Jun-2004 06:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
Shit happens and life goes on
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 24 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 06:45 GMT
Everyone has jumped ship from Articia (except Eyetech). It doesn't
work. Let it die and rest in peace.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 25 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 06:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Olegil):
Sven is experienced with the Articia and he works for a company that
previously used it in motherboard designs, but then replaced it with a
working one. And I wouldn't call it a hidden agenda, it's quite clear
where Sven has his interests.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 26 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by DB on 15-Jun-2004 07:06 GMT
Software engineers and hardware engineers rarely agree
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 27 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 15-Jun-2004 07:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Emeric SH):
"Calling back and exchanging/hw fixing all the existing AmigaONE boards would be a devastating blow to Eyetech."

They did it already once.
There have been new ArtisiaS revision since, new boards, etc...

"IMO that's why the look for a software solution was so desperate. "

I disagree.

If the HW Fix would have been crusial to Eyetech, it would have been in A1XE boards already. Most likely not even MiniA1 will have any HW fix/glue logic.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 28 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2004 08:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
Which is why I call it badly hidden, because he's still claiming to have no agenda ;-)
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 29 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 15-Jun-2004 08:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (DB):
Which is a bitch, because I'm in hardware, firmware and software, so everytime I find a bug it's my own god damn fault somewhere in the past :-)
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 30 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 15-Jun-2004 08:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Olegil):
Something happened with the Articia during the last year? Please
elaborate. Otherwise I really can't see why someone should be
disqualified from talking about it just because they haven't worked
with it for a year. Also, if someone thinks that product XYZ is shitty
and says so, and why, that's hardly an "agenda".

Also: Fine, if you think you have a software workaround that is both
reliable and doesn't incur a serious performance penalty, very well.
But the onus is on *you* to prove that this is possible, not on us who
don't believe it is to prove that it's not. Claiming that it is
possible but only on OS4 and not in Linux doesn't really make it more
believable, either.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 31 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 09:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Olegil):
Why not call Ben Hermans to sort things out? I'm sure when BH enlightens those poor souls everyone understands. It is worth of try?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 32 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by elf on 15-Jun-2004 09:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
Block Address Translation.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 33 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 on 15-Jun-2004 09:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
>it remains to be seen how much that cripples OS4 once the PowerPC port is complete.

I guess we will have to wait for AOS4 to be ported to other platforms (After waiting for it to be finished, of course) to properly measure that...

I guess A1 will outperform every platform on "to be supported" list currently, even without DMA (CSPPC+BPPC)
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 34 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 10:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Ben Hermans (Hyperion)):
>There are no problems with the MAI northbridge, in fact you will see os4 and the >linux kernal using the extra features that MAI provides.

In the post Benjamin Herrenschmidt clearly say that it _could_ work:

>_HOWEVER_, doing that in a northbridge for anything but an embedded CPU,
>especially a CPU of the 6xx/7xxx family is just insane. It's basically
>incompetent northbridge design

But that it's not smart at all, that's even "insane"

Ben Hermans: maybe you should stop lying to people ...
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 35 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Sven Luther on 15-Jun-2004 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Olegil):
Hey Olegil, don't be a morron. This was in the space of the debian-powerpc forum, and not in the space of hate throwing amiga related forums. I didn't meant it like that, and i told you so. It was a friendly teasing, nothing more, and i told that in said email.
I only saw an AmigaONE once, in Oldenbourg in 2003, and it was not able to install debian, dying because of a IDE related OOPS. I mentioned this, but also told that i believed this was probably a early board with some problems or something such, the same as there were early buggyer pegasos boards. I don't really care about all of this, but please don't speak such behind my back.

Friendly,

Sven Luther
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 36 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jun-2004 11:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Olegil):
"And had MAI still done any kernel work we might have HAD a shot at getting into Debian (see earlier in the same thread, where Ben and friends list things that are required to get in. Basically we need a working 2.6 kernel, which I do not have)."

It's very hard to understand what MAI are up to. What OS did they expect to be running on their chip? Surely not AmigaOS. Linux or BSD are the only likely candidates. So why did they not hire a full time Linux expert?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 37 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Jacob on 15-Jun-2004 11:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Sven Luther):
Teasing people on a public forum using a subject that has had a lot of heated and extremely rude debate isn't exactly very sensible is it? How else did you expect him to react?

Use your brain.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 38 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 15-Jun-2004 13:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
You have no clue who "benh" is now, do you?
Nice try, but... better inform yourself before posting crap.


Heck, I don't know who YOU are. Of course it doesn't matter as you're just another annonymous "richard cranium". I have zero respect for you critters that hide under rocks.

coldfire
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 39 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 15-Jun-2004 13:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Johan Rönnblom):
What I got from that article was the problem with the articia deals with how Linux does DMA. If another procedure was used it might not be such a penalty.

Is this wrong?

I ask this as a serious "technical" question.

coldfire
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 40 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 13:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Don Cox):
The OS doesn't run on their chip, the OS runs on a complete computer and the computers use the chip. But anyway MAI needs to produce a series of chips until they have something competitive and then software like Linux will be adjusted if necessary to run with the newly available competitive hardware. Until then MAI's funding is not correlated to sales.

Running Linux on the Teron just validates the Teron hardware, or rather doesn't, since the results when people finally did this showed clear signs of hardware problems, most blatently the AC97 codec is somehow not stitched in correctly but also in AGP and other subsystems. They also found DMA problems (though how those were distinguished from the cache coherency "feature" discovered afterwards isn't clear) and those are supposedly fixed in the boards sold as "Earlybird" AmigaOnes.

None of the above is a problem for MAI's continued development of new Northbridges, except that it might point to a need for more QA. It _is_ a problem for anyone selling consumer hardware based on the existing Articia S and Teron designs. There aren't any Linux people in that business, it's just Eyetech, and their software partners Hyperion say they're on top of it.

Don, if you want the A1 to be some sort of mass market success I'm afraid you're in Fantasy Land. The most Amigans can hope for is that Eyetech and Hyperion are able to sustain enough income from other projects to stay in business and support your hobby.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 41 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 13:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Jacob):
That forum is another world compared to ann.lu, and ripping things out
of context, from a place where things generally can be discussed in
a more civilized manner, and posting it here where the issue is so
"heated", is not very nice, is it?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 42 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Jacob on 15-Jun-2004 14:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Anonymous):
Why are you taking that issue up with me? I didn't start this thread.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 43 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 15-Jun-2004 15:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Anonymous):
So do you have a Pegasos instead?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 44 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by steve-o^ on 15-Jun-2004 15:18 GMT
"resolved 203.217.84.53 to 203-217-84-53.dyn.iinet.net.au"

I'm positive Ben isn't Australian and also positive that he drinks better lager/beer than Fosters! ;)

Cheers!
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 45 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 15:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Olegil):
Ole-Egil, didn't you want to give away your AmigaOne if Hyperion weren't able
to deliver OS4pre at the Gøteborg party?
Well...
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 46 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jun-2004 16:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (priest):
>They did it already once.
>There have been new ArtisiaS revision since, new boards, etc...

Ah yes, but the users of the buggy boards had to pay.
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 47 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 15-Jun-2004 17:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (not this again...):
"Didn't we already cover this?? Fine. It doesn't work with linux. Move on and live with it. We're not USING linux!"

Well, actually you are, and have been for years..
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 48 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 16-Jun-2004 06:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Anonymous):
"The OS doesn't run on their chip, the OS runs on a complete computer and the computers use the chip. But anyway MAI needs to produce a series of chips until they have something competitive and then software like Linux will be adjusted if necessary to run with the newly available competitive hardware. Until then MAI's funding is not correlated to sales."

How can they demonstrate that they have anything competitive to offer ?
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 49 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 16-Jun-2004 07:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Darth_X):
Who on Earth would buy a Pegasos while holding opinions like this about the A1?

No, I don't own a Pegasos, nor a DT325, nor an Iyonix. I don't feel any craving to pay for expensive poor quality hardware in order to access the unique "experience" of running 3rd rate operating systems on it. In that sense I'm as unbiased as they come here on ANN.lu
What a PPC linux kernel hacker thinks about the Articia : Comment 50 of 68ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Frieden on 16-Jun-2004 07:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
> Anyone know what "BAT" decrypts to

Block Address Translation.

The PPC's MMU has two possibilities for handling memory mapping: A full MMU page table, and BAT registers. If maintaining an MMU table is too much work (or costs too much memory), you can use BAT registers.

Basically, you can just say "map a block of size x from address v to address p, with the following access restrictions". You have 4 pairs for data addresses, and 4 pairs for instruction addresses (some chips, like the 7457 and 750FX have 8 pairs each).
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