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[Forum] Try only to realise the truthANN.lu
Posted on 04-Jul-2004 14:02 GMT by Truth335 comments
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There is no DMA in the AmigaOne. http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5558&forum=13
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 1 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Rafo on 04-Jul-2004 12:33 GMT
The linked thread is about DMA in Linux. Who gives a crap about linux ?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 2 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 04-Jul-2004 12:37 GMT
Oh really? ;-)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 3 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 04-Jul-2004 12:37 GMT
who gives a crap about linux?

apparently a hell of a lot more people than care about Amiga.

shrug....
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 4 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk on 04-Jul-2004 12:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (3seas):
I think the issue is who cares about Linux on an AmigaOne. Over 99% of the people that bought systems from me don't care about Linux and were only concerned about OS4.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 5 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 12:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Adam Kowalczyk):
Too bad the OS4 run on the same computer than the AmigaOne...
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 6 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by MaSC on 04-Jul-2004 12:49 GMT
Anybody who buys the AmigaOne at 450-500 UKP for Linux would need there head seeing too anyways.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 7 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by MaSC on 04-Jul-2004 12:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (MaSC):
there = their, I'm not that thick honest
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 8 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 12:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (MaSC):
Indeed, you can buy almost two Pegasos for that price !
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 9 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 04-Jul-2004 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (MaSC):
>Anybody who buys the AmigaOne at 450-500 UKP for Linux would need there head
>seeing too anyways.

Where can you get one that cheap?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 10 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Graham_NLI on 04-Jul-2004 13:34 GMT
The only sane reason to get an AmigaOne is to run AmigaOS4, and that apparently has working DMA on the AmigaOne motherboard.

I don't know why no-one has bothered to make a working Artica-S DMA patch for Linux, but then again, who would buy an AmigaOne to run Linux primarily?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 11 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 13:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Graham_NLI):
hehey, you still believe Hyperion, Eyetech and co ?
How do you do?

They clearly proved their ineffiency on that point...
Unable to fix the pb, unable to explain it, lying to people (it's a feature...)

Bye
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 12 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by MaSC on 04-Jul-2004 13:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (smithy):
Nowhere that I know of, because I forgot VAT: 528.75-587.50
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 13 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 04-Jul-2004 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
DMA *does* work under OS4 on the AmigaOne. It doesn't really matter whether you believe Hyperion/Eyetech or not, because in due course the DMA enabled drivers will make it to the end users and you'll be the one eating your words.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 14 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 04-Jul-2004 13:56 GMT
It's a bit two sided issue.
Judging by the laughable booting times of OS4, the DMA is not enabled in the pre-dev OS4, which I am quite sure will be fixed in near future. So all will be well there.
But, if Eyetech wants to sell these boards ouside the Amiga-market, a working DMA for Linux is a must, definetely needed. I can't see how mr.Redhouse could sell half working product for the masses.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 15 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 14:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Peter Gordon):
http://lists.debian.org/debian-powerpc/2004/06/msg00430.html

Yeah, yeah.

Benjamin Herrenschmidt, THE Linux PowerPC master :-)

He clearly said that even on non cache coherency platform LinuxPPC can work.
So let's try to hack stuff and for Linux to disable the cache coherency in your AOne...

However, I don't see any "feature" there, only bug

Ben H is even more clear and wrote:
"It's basically incompetent northbridge design".
Heyhey!

In conclusion, an OS can work even without cache coherency but that's just very bad for deskop computer.
Also, it's only "one" bug, maybe the ArticiaS "features" more surprise.

So maybe it works on OS4, maybe it could work on Linux and co. But, ArticiaS is just crap, and only bPlan
succed to make it working correctly.

Bye
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 16 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Felix on 04-Jul-2004 15:28 GMT
They can't handle the truth.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 17 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 04-Jul-2004 15:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
> So maybe it works on OS4, maybe it could work on Linux and co. But, ArticiaS
> is just crap, and only bPlan succed to make it working correctly.

Bullshit. DMA works correctly on my AmigaOne, therefore DMA is working correctly on the AmigaOne, without any help from bPlan. Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point. As and when correctly operating DMA drivers appear for the general public, they will speak for themselves.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 18 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 04-Jul-2004 15:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Peter Gordon):
err.. i meant "I'm not going to argue the point any further". Clearly I already am arguing the point... :-)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 19 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Metalheart on 04-Jul-2004 15:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
CUT IT OUT !

DMA is working, just not released to the public yet.

Hope it will be soon, so all this bickering will be over !
Ah well, people will find some other thing to try to bring A1/OS4 down.....

Martin
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 20 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 04-Jul-2004 15:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Metalheart):
Hi Martin, do you design chips for Mai?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 21 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 04-Jul-2004 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Peter Gordon):
Peter, arguing your point makes no sense since you don't work for or represent Mai Logic. How can you know for certain that the issues/problems will indeed be fixed? Then there's the issue of Mai not supporting their products :/
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 22 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 16:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Darth_X):
Arguing with blue trolls like you who are not the least bit intrested in the Aone or who is going to buy one is a total waste of time and thats for sure.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 23 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 04-Jul-2004 16:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Anonymous):
and YOU are anonymous poster!!!!!

ANONYMOUS!!!!!
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 24 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 04-Jul-2004 16:12 GMT
And?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 25 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 16:23 GMT
To ppl who are owners or who are intrested dont bother wasting your time arguing here.

Just wait and see if there realy is problem that cant be solved and hold off buying an aone untill it is like me wile looking at useful discussion without having to flame with ppl who have already got what they like from esleware.

This thread is like going to a BMW dealer to get truthful info about how much better the Mercedes-Benz is.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 26 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 16:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Darth_X):
Like many others.

Who wait! only when ANONYMOUS ppl say what you dont like do you ever care that we are ANONYMOUS.

As long as ANONYMOUS are kicking for the same side as you its then ok as is clear to see when you complain.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 27 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 16:47 GMT
fact - There is no DMA for AmigaONE on Linux. Support to the kernel has not been added -> but its possible. Not trivial, but possible.

fact - there is DMA in AmigaOS4 for the AmigaONE boards. The scsi.device and
3com.device both use it.


anybody saying otherwise is lying, or is playing around with out of date OS4 pre-releases.

DO NOT BELIEVE the words of a few individuals who just want to cause HARM
because their path is going down the toilet drain fast
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 28 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Gelb on 04-Jul-2004 16:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Metalheart):
> Ah well, people will find some other thing to try to bring A1/OS4 down...

Yeah, like its price.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 29 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 17:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Gelb):
We know the price is high, tell us somthing new.

Opps you cant.

You have what you want but yet you blues still complain about a product not to your likeing that no one is forceing you to use or buy.

Or do you go around to every forum thats out there & complain about all other products that you dont own or want & try to get them discontinued.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 30 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 04-Jul-2004 17:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Darth_X):
No, but I *DO* have the absolute latest OS4 modules installed on my AmigaOne.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 31 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 04-Jul-2004 18:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Peter Gordon):
"Bullshit. DMA works correctly on my AmigaOne, therefore DMA is working correctly on the AmigaOne, without any help from bPlan. Anyway, I'm not going to argue the point. As and when correctly operating DMA drivers appear for the general public, they will speak for themselves."

May it be so. It's the fourth or fifth time we hear from Hyperion, that "there are no DMA bugs whatsoever with AmigaONE". We heard it from "independent" sources, that there are no DMA bugs in Linux. Everyone stating otherwise is a liar. I'm not surprised that their word given the circumstances and their record concerning the issue worths what... nothing?

We heard from Eyetech first, that the Pegasos with the original Articia is buggy. When it has been turned around and used against them as an argument - we had an amusing show - denial, complete denial, AmigaONE not affected, it's a VIA bug, complete denial again, it's a feature...

We have nothing but your word. We had word of Hyperion, DaveP, and a whole heap of people before.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 32 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 04-Jul-2004 18:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
because their path is going down the toilet drain fast

And which path is it ?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 33 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 18:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Emeric SH):
> that there are no DMA bugs in Linux.

What has that got to do with this? It's an incompatibility issue which needs to be solved by rewriting drivers, what's so hard to understand? And of course AmigaOS4 has the priority for the AmigaOS4 team.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 34 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 18:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Anonymous):
> I don't know why no-one has bothered to make a working Artica-S DMA patch for
> Linux, but then again, who would buy an AmigaOne to run Linux primarily?

On a related note, dunno if completely IT, how come people are experiencing so poor transfer rates with their networks?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 35 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 18:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Peter Gordon):
> No, but I *DO* have the absolute latest OS4 modules installed on my AmigaOne.

But didn't Hyperion already say very long ago, way before the prerelease was sent to customers, that DMA was working? How come there's always need for the "absolute latest AOS4 module" to have DMA working?

Just very curious.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 36 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 18:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Fabio Alemagna):
Because those have been extensively tested:

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1362

Final optimised drivers will make it into AmigaOS4.0 final. A developer Pre-release is just that "a developer pre-release" and thus means that tested stability and proper development tools are more important than speed and eyecandy.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 37 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by reflect on 04-Jul-2004 18:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Fabio Alemagna):
you don't need the latest modules to have dma. Peter just stated that HE has the latest. That's two completely different things.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 38 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 19:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Fabio Alemagna):
Oops, sorry, wrong copy'n'paste. This is how it should have been.

> fact - there is DMA in AmigaOS4 for the AmigaONE boards. The scsi.device and
> 3com.device both use it.

On a related note, dunno if completely IT, how come people are experiencing so poor transfer rates with their networks?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 39 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 19:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (reflect):
> you don't need the latest modules to have dma.

No? Then why the one on the prerelease doesn't have it/doesn't work properly with it?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 40 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 19:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
> Pre-release is just that "a developer pre-release" and thus means that tested
> stability and proper development tools are more important than speed and
> eyecandy.

So you're saying they weren't stable yet? So DMA was not working properly yet? Then why did they say it was?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 41 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 04-Jul-2004 19:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Anonymous):
Haha a DaveP screenshot as *proof*, sweet, it must be true then.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 42 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 04-Jul-2004 19:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
He clearly said that even on non cache coherency platform LinuxPPC can work.
So let's try to hack stuff and for Linux to disable the cache coherency in your AOne...

It's the other way around, sooort of... if "DrBombcrater" is correct on Amiga.org, which may or may not be the case. You *want* cache coherency where you can get it, so if the chipset won't handle it transparently (bug or design decision), you tap it on the shoulder when you're done and make sure the cache lines agree with 'reality.' Since nothing other than the driver should be peeking at the DMA addresses, you probably don't need to hold a lock.

If this understanding is right, and my further understanding is right (danger, danger.. ;)), 2.4 didn't have a generalized API to say "Look, I'm on a platform that works this way, conduct a 'shoulder-tap' after every ____." 2.6 appears to, though I've helpfully lost the page for the project.

This probably gets more confusing when you're trying to deal with SMP (disclaimer: I know squat about the PPC bus protocols and nearly squat about x86), but SMP is always confusing.

---

Here's a thread about some mostly-unrelated confusion with the Linux DMA API, which demonstrates yet-more pitfalls you can... er, fall into. Note a few posts down, where someone says "So maybe the only advantage would be to allow more portable generic device drivers. Luckily I don't need this right now :)" -- unfortunately, this sort of portability is what Mai et al. assumed they could rely on, and it seems everyone (Mai, bPlan/Genesi, the whole Amiga befunge) got the unpleasant surprise.

If the problem really is known, there's no reason OS4 shouldn't work (we'll know the day we can test it... and/or maybe the day the driver API is explained), because it doesn't have the, er, obligation... to work with existing code (like the Linux device drivers as they stand). Meanwhile, no matter who did the work to refactor the whole API and perhaps all the drivers (assuming it's been done), such dramatic changes don't usually get patched on the main tree of a 'stable' series like 2.4. (So the A1-Linux or YellowDog trees might have them... more likely they have their own hacks while waiting for 2.6 to present a clearer path... but BenH's builds, the official Marcelo tree, or anything put out for the Pegasos might not. From what Ole-Egil was saying on the Debian list, it sounds like work has only begun to get things 'recognized' in Linus/Morton 2.6, even if the APIs to make it easy -- if(Articia_S && !April) { define DMA_WORKS_LIKE_THIS }* -- do exist... because the legwork's been left to hobbyists... and Hyperion employees** on unpaid time. ;))

*Psuedocode. Please do not make fun of my weak knowledge of preprocessors and C. ;)
**And this is Eyetech's problem, not Hyperion's -- their OS should work, after all -- so seeing what's gone on, I can understand how Ross must've felt getting 'fan mail' about it. At the same time, if he doesn't want to get stuck looking like project lead for being founder (everyone disclaims being 'lead,' last I checked, so there's a good chance the project doesn't have one... and it's a thankless position, because even if everything does work, it's not like Intel will hire you and put you on pension for it), maybe the project site should make a show of advertising for one... not that there'll be any takers (hey, y'never know, stranger people read KernelTrap, though there's that conflict of interest in showing off a "bug"), but just to show that no one's "in charge." ;)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 43 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 04-Jul-2004 19:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Emeric SH):
May it be so. It's the fourth or fifth time we hear from Hyperion, that "there are no DMA bugs whatsoever with AmigaONE". We heard it from "independent" sources, that there are no DMA bugs in Linux. Everyone stating otherwise is a liar. I'm not surprised that their word given the circumstances and their record concerning the issue worths what... nothing?

The actual issue seems sort of like trying to cram a 110V appliance into a 220V socket. Is the socket the liar, or is the blowdryer?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 44 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 19:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Fabio Alemagna):
> So you're saying they weren't stable yet? So DMA was not working properly
> yet?

Sign... NO I didn't say that.

It's quite simple really: They weren't happy enough yet with the result to include it in the pre-release and DMA, just like pretty icons or super fast JIT emulation doesn't have priority for a developer pre-release compared to things that more directly help developers start developing. This is nothing new with regard to commercial software development, not all in-house (or at 3rd party beta-testers) working stuff are getting released immediately to the general public. Hard for you to understand maybe if you look at the (rather messy and sometimes chaotic) open source world...
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 45 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 19:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Anonymous):
> It's quite simple really: They weren't happy enough yet with the result to
> include it in the pre-release and DMA, just like pretty icons or super fast
> JIT emulation doesn't have priority for a developer pre-release compared to
> things that more directly help developers start developing.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning... what does it take to be "happy enough" with the result to include DMA in the prerelease?

I mean, either it works, or it doesn't. If it works, then why not include it, instead of the current ide device (which someone can't get to achieve more than 50 Kb/s when writing - looks like AROS' crappy ide driver, now being scrapped ;-))?

Besides, who are you, really, to say why or why not they did or did not include something in the prerelease? Are you sure you're just not talking out of thin air?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 46 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 19:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Fabio Alemagna):
> I'm not sure I follow your reasoning... what does it take to be "happy
> enough" with the result to include DMA in the prerelease?

It seems you want to continue this endless discussion asking in my view more silly (hidden agenda?) questions. Not being happy enough means that they weren't happy enough with releasing it. This can have many different reasons, like for instance wanting to further optimise things and let the beta-testers test this as well.

Fact: 3rd party beta-testers confirm DMA is working properly with AmigaOS4.

The latter is all that matters to me, you can continue to FUD things by questioning these and other people's integrity. IMO in the end it's just your own integrity that is being damaged.

Have a nice day. THE END
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 47 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 04-Jul-2004 19:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Anonymous):
> It seems you want to continue this endless discussion asking in my view more
> silly (hidden agenda?) questions.

Oh, let's begin with conspiracy theories, shall we? ;-)

> Not being happy enough means that they weren't happy enough with releasing it.

Ahah, well, I guess I can't get a clearer response from you, whoever you are :-)

> This can have many different reasons, like for instance wanting to further
> optimise things and let the beta-testers test this as well.

So, it's better to "further optimize" and for the moment leave people with their 50KB/s tranfer rates, rather than giving people decent tranfer rates now and ALSO further optimize?

Sorry, but that makes no sense. If I can have 10 now, and 15 tomorrow, why do you give me 5?

> Fact: 3rd party beta-testers confirm DMA is working properly with AmigaOS4.

I don't care. I raised another point: we've been told AGES ago that DMA was working, many many months ago. Still, the prerelease is lacking proper DMA.

Question for the attentive readers: why?


> The latter is all that matters to me, you can continue to FUD things by
> questioning these and other people's integrity. IMO in the end it's just your
> own integrity that is being damaged.

I've not questioned anyone's integrity (also because anonymous people have NO integrity to be questioned at all), I just asked WHO you are to make such claims. If I had to guess, I'd say you're a clueless worshipper. Feel free to prove me wrong.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 48 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 19:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Fabio Alemagna):
""I mean, either it works, or it doesn't.""

Thats a silly statment.

Im glad that you can develop Drivers for hardware & get it working 100% right on your first try fab.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 49 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 04-Jul-2004 20:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Fabio Alemagna):
"So, it's better to "further optimize" and for the moment leave people with their 50KB/s tranfer rates, rather than giving people decent tranfer rates now and ALSO further optimize?"

Oh so Aros release everything with out being tested or optimized & just so they say its released.

Oh and Mos team never heled anything back ever to be optimized? because im sure i have seen thread with MOS users asking why this & that is not in the current released when said feature was said to of been in beta testing for over a year.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 50 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 04-Jul-2004 20:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Anonymous):
"Fact: 3rd party beta-testers confirm DMA is working properly with AmigaOS4."

There are hundreds of AmigaONE users out there using their AmigaONE without problems. This was Ben Hermans argument a while (some months, a year ago maybe?), "proving" that there are "no DMA problems whatsoever with AmigaONE".

This "fact" has become something rather uncomfortable for him now, I presume.

Is there ANY hardware expert employed by either Hyperion or Eyetech, or are they entirely relying on what MAI tells or not tells them?
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