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[Forum] Try only to realise the truthANN.lu
Posted on 04-Jul-2004 14:02 GMT by Truth335 comments
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There is no DMA in the AmigaOne. http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=5558&forum=13
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 151 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 05-Jul-2004 12:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Anonymous):
>Im glad that you can develop Drivers for hardware & get it working 100% right on your first try fab.

Hey, lay off him!!! This is Fabio we're talking about. He's sooooo good at coding that AROS is already 100% functional and has greater usability and software compatibility than Windows XP Pro. If he wants to rubbish OS4 then let him because, as he's the brain behind a much superior product, he has every right to troll (oops - I mean "point out flaws in) Hyperion's effort.

Now, did someone mention "conspiracy theories"? Who wants one - I've got loads.

;-)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 152 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 05-Jul-2004 12:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 151 (Darrin):
Ahem. In fact AROS is not bad at all for an Amiga operating system.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 153 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 05-Jul-2004 12:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (Don Cox):
The disadvantage of experienced beta testers is that they are experienced --- which means they typically tend to not do "stupid" things. You need people who do "stupid" things, too, to test whether your stuff survives....
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 154 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Bernie Meyer):
Where's SG when you need him? ;)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 155 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Ferry on 05-Jul-2004 13:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Bernie Meyer):
You need people who do "stupid" things, too, to test whether your stuff survives....

He, he, some can be picked from this very thread... ;¬)

Saluditos,

Ferrán.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 156 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 13:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 103 (priest):
priest wrote:
> I think Articia pretty much fullfills its specifications.

I agree. But note that MAI "achieved" this by changing the
specifications - nowadays the Articia does not *have* DMA according to
its specifications.

So basically, Hyperion and their supporters claim they have DMA
working on a chipset that doesn't even have DMA in its specifications.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 157 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 13:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 145 (Amon_Re):
Amon_Re wrote:
> How many times will we have the same stupid flamewars? When AOS4 is
> released with DMA drivers? When Linux finally properly support the
> A1?

I see three possibilities. Either one would do:

1) Hyperion release DMA-enabled drivers, and no one can show how to
reproduce any DMA transfer errors.

2) Someone releases working DMA-enabled drivers for Linux, which again
no one can reproduce errors with.

3) Hyperion and their supporters step down and admit that A1 DMA
doesn't work properly and never will, and that there will always be a
speed penalty for DMA-related stuff, and probably some things will
simply not work.


Until either one of these things occur, I and many others are likely
to continue informing people that the A1 does not work as advertised.
Note that I have no problem with people buying an A1 as long as they
are aware what they are getting. If you know of the problems and still
want an A1, fine. People shouldn't be fooled, that's all.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 158 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 13:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Johan Rönnblom):
Sorry, removed some flames inside Amon's quote there, missed the
intended [...] in the quote.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 159 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 05-Jul-2004 14:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Johan Rönnblom):
>Until either one of these things occur, I and many others are likely
>to continue informing people that the A1 does not work as advertised.

But for crying out loud, neither AmigaOS4 nor the AmigaOne has been finally released yet! I mean, AmigaOS4 is only available as a developer pre-release and the AmigaOne is only available as an "earlybird", ie they are NOT advertised as fully functional yet.

If it's really that hard to not expose your bias, please refrain yourself from making a statement to begin with. Spare us your pretended "I'm just providing the community with my services" attitude, your obviously here to just throw mud like everybody else.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 160 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 05-Jul-2004 14:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 159 (Sammy Nordström):
> But for crying out loud, neither AmigaOS4 nor the AmigaOne has been finally
> released yet!

The AmigaONE is certainly finally released. AmigaONE as in the HW. It's been sold with Linux, it's a complete system, and doesn't work as advertised.

As for AOS4, since you say there is still no AOS4 product in the hands of the users, it's quite correct to say that the product people have in their hands *now* is not able to do certain tasks properly. It's just a simple fact.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 161 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 05-Jul-2004 14:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (itix):
>Ahem. In fact AROS is not bad at all for an Amiga operating system.

You're right of course. It was a bit unfair of me to target AROS in order to have a dig at Fabio as it undermines the hard efforts of others. Unfortunately, Fabio just sometimes drives people to doing this. As he thinks it's obviously amusing to do this despit the fact that it will upset people like the Friedens then I'm have to say that I feel justified in having a little stab at his software effort ;-)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 162 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 05-Jul-2004 14:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (Darrin):
If the Friedens get upset it's certainly not my problem, it's rather theirs. I only speak my mind.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 163 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 159 (Sammy Nordström):
Sammy wrote:
> But for crying out loud, neither AmigaOS4 nor the AmigaOne has been
> finally released yet!
> [..] they are NOT advertised as fully functional yet.


Then could you please explain this:

http://www.eyetech.co.uk/search.php?SearchStr=&SearchCat=AMA1

and this:

http://www.kdh-amiga-shop.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=22_24_82

and this:

http://www.vesalia.de/?V02b0f15545e4616745c5c50520a514e01101f0954414752050140090a1e31115579633a223c6373744e03263f2a2a76610539646d6d22656b30202c7a33322a7810435247031b7b1d67617

and this:

http://www.mrhardwarecomputers.com/data/ao.htm

well I could go on forever. But nowhere in these links can I see *any*
notice or disclaimer that the AmigaOnes being sold are not fully
functional.

As for bias - yes I'm biased against the A1. That's because I think
it's broken. I do have a strong bias against broken hardware. But I
repeat, I would not keep going on about this unless this hardware was
in fact being sold just as if it wasn't broken, when it is.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 164 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Johan Rönnblom):
> Until either one of these things occur, I and many others are likely
> to continue informing people that the A1 does not work as advertised.

IMO no problem, as long as you give both sides of the story. For instance that 3rd party beta-testers and AmigaOS4 developers do they claim to have DMA working properly.

The problem is however that most blue trolls only tell the Genesi AmigaOne-FUD side of the story, neglecting anything that may suggest that there's more to this story.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 165 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 15:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Johan Rönnblom):
I would have no problem with any of those scenario's, it's the mindless flaming & trolling about this issue that's getting on my nerves, and this thread isn't about informing people, it's filled with somuch crap it could furtilase a desert.

Informing people if fine, asking questions is fine, this thread achieved neighter.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 166 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 15:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 158 (Johan Rönnblom):
Missed what? Don't confuse me on a monday! :P
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 167 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 05-Jul-2004 15:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Johan Rönnblom):
"I do have a strong bias against broken hardware. But I
repeat, I would not keep going on about this unless this hardware was
in fact being sold just as if it wasn't broken, when it is."

Reminds me of my vendetta against "dual CPU Peg1". ;)

I agree that it would be nice to mention (even though it's a AmigaOS HW) that DMA does not work 100% on Linux.

Same way it would have been nice to mention that even though some things exist on the edge of the pegasos board, they might not be usable yet (digital audio, firewire, etc.).
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 168 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 15:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (Fabio Alemagna):
Fine, good, great, go start a website, just stop repeating yourself :P
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 169 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 15:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Johan Rönnblom):
The question that arrises from your statements is, is the A1 broken or not?
And in what aspect is it broken?

You have a point when you say Linux isn't working 100%, last time i checked it wasn't, but the term "broken" is too loaded and bound to trigger flames.

"Linux support for the A1 is broken" vs "the A1 is broken" is a big difference, surely you see what i'm getting at here?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 170 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 164 (Anonymous):
For crying out loud, the "blue" trolls you mention are just here to cause shit, now they'll be crapping on the A1, next week they'll be crapping on Genesi, it's anonymous asses that cause more then half of the flamewars.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 171 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 05-Jul-2004 15:35 GMT
About the topic: Somebody should modify it.


But if it ewally was an attempt of trying to realize the truth ??!!?? ...

PLEASE try to realize the truth. There is DMA in the AmigaOne.

But if there is no special support SW written for it, or some additional HW solution, it randomly corrupts data.

That special support SW is being written for AmigaOS4. The SW is in beta testing state, it exist for beta testers.

AmigaOne is for running AmigaOS4.x. Buying AmigaOne for any other purpose is silly (nicely put).



I personally desided to wait untill AOS4 with IDE UDMA drivers are available.
(actually, without some other events I would be already using peg1)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 172 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 05-Jul-2004 15:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 171 (priest):
ewally = really ... LOL! ... WAY toomany fingers on keyboard error
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 173 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 15:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (priest):
I have not checked every reseller, but at least I know GGSdata
properly informs eg that Firewire only works in Linux so far. Probably
there might be resellers who don't have such good information.

However, there is a huge difference, in that if you ask in any Pegasos
forum what works and what does not work, everyone will immediately
inform you that Firewire (and Gigabit ethernet) only works under Linux
so far. As for digital audio, you have to ask someone else as I don't
know. For the AmigaOne, there are a lot of people around (just see
this thread) who will claim that the DMA problems on the A1 do not
exist.

As for the "dual cpu" stuff, well.. this is really the same as what
we've always seen in the Amiga business, all these great add-ons for
products which never turned up. My stance is and has always been to
advise people to buy based on what is available, and never count on
these great future plans to ever materialise.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 174 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 05-Jul-2004 15:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (priest):
"I agree that it would be nice to mention (even though it's a AmigaOS HW) that DMA does not work 100% on Linux." I never tried Linux, but aint there Linux for old classic Amiga? How DMA works there with SCSI controllers?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 175 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Ronald St-Maurice on 05-Jul-2004 15:51 GMT
I didn't read the whole 4 pages. I can deduce that it's not Hyperion's job to fix the Linux DMA driver. But since the AmigaOne is an Eyetech product, who's in charge of the Linux support?

I hope that someone is working on such a thing. Because putting the desktop Amiga OS back on the map will be a really hard task with only AmigaOS4 available for these boards. I still can't come up with an industry that would require AmigaOne/Pegasus mobos.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 176 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 05-Jul-2004 16:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (uhm):
Sure.. fullspeed USB2.0 (at least not without extra PCI card) and many USB classes still missing in Poseidon (audio, euthernet..)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 177 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 16:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (Johan Rönnblom):
> For the AmigaOne, there are a lot of people around (just see
> this thread) who will claim that the DMA problems on the A1 do not
> exist.

According to my personal experience this is completely false. Although there have been people stating that they did not encounter data corruption under Linux while having DMA enabled, but that's something entirely different.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 178 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 05-Jul-2004 16:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 154 (Amon_Re):
in rec.photo.digital, under the pseudonym "George Preddy", peddling his trademark high level technical understanding, superior morality in debating, and typical modesty about his own abilities.....
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 179 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 16:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (Johan Rönnblom):
Well, all the built-in compement of the Pegasos works:
FireWire, GigaBit Ethernet, 10/100 Ethernet Digital Audio, USB...

But it's true that MorphOS doesn't include all the software needed for them, example:
- no FireWire stack/drivers
- ni GB drivers
...

But as they work just fine on Linux, they could work on any others OS which has the appropriate software.

But I don't see the point here. No one claimed that there is FireWire support in MorphOS. just check the official site.
It doesn't claim that MorphOS has.

bye
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 180 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 17:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Anonymous):
"But I don't see the point here. No one claimed that there is FireWire support in MorphOS. just check the official site.
It doesn't claim that MorphOS has. "


True, but please don't spoil the cultists' attempts at deflection by pointing out the irrelevancy of their comparison. They've got this funny 'blue vs red' game under way here, and an Enemy is needed.

OTOH the official 'AmigaOne' marketing doesn't explicitly claim that there is no data loss due to file corruption, and/or that there is functional DMA, and/or DMA without performance compromises. So I suppose everything's fine and dandy! In 2004, and for a paltry $800, you shouldn't really expect to keep your data or use DMA. Bwaahahahah! ;')
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 181 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 17:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 178 (Bernie Meyer):
He finally let go of the A3k?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 182 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 17:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Anonymous):
Just look in this thread, in the first 50 the following comments claim
that DMA on the A1 works fine (numbers with a * strongly assert this,
numbers without make the claim although somewhat weaker): 10, 13*,
17*, 18*, 27*, 37, 46*.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 183 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 05-Jul-2004 17:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 182 (Johan Rönnblom):
I notice you flagged up a couple of mine to prove your point. Notice that I never claimed DMA works 100% fine in LinuxPPC on AmigaOne, because clearly it doesn't.

All I claim is that DMA works on the AmigaOne, with DMA enabled OS4 drivers. I know this for a 100% fact because I have exactly those drivers on my system, and DMA works. Nothing more, nothing less. I would give further information, but the NDA unfortunately forbids me from letting you know anything which is not already public knowledge.

In due course these drivers will be released to the public.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 184 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 05-Jul-2004 18:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Johan Rönnblom):
Johan, you were just two simple clicks away from the Earlybird information on Eyetech's website. By following your URL, then clicking the "i" symbol, then clicking the AmigaOne prebuilt systems icon, I found this:

http://www.eyetech.co.uk/addbar.php?Address=/PRODUCT/PAMA1/AMIGA001.HTM

Quote:

"Please note however that in buying an Earlybird system you are buying into a product that, from the software/firmware pont of view, inevitably needs further refinement before being able to be sold as a true consumer product. Support for the Earlybird syst tems is provided on mailing lists to which purchasers will be subscribed. However neither we nor the majority of dealers can undertake to give any Linux or UAE support to Earlybird purchasers, whether for motherboards or complete systems."

Yet people like you keep arguing that a certain feature doesn't work in Linux and that it would prove a fault of the hardware, and now you even act dumber than I know you really are for the sake of "proving" that Eyetech would have advertised the AmigaOne as a final consumer product with Linux support. Please, Johan. Spare us from your FUD mungoring and get back to praising whatever you prefered choice of hardware may be.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 185 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 18:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (Sammy Nordström):
well, earlybird is loooooong over now....
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 186 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (Sammy Nordström):
Sammy, they are disclaiming the *software* (as in: "software/firmware
pont [sic] of view"). I'm talking about the *hardware* (as in:
"That's because I think it's broken. I have a strong bias against
broken hardware").


Peter Gordon: Yes, you're claiming it works in OS4, denying that the
hardware is broken. As long as people like you keep doing this, I'll
certainly do my best to inform potential buyers that the A1 hardware
is broken.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 187 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Hodges on 05-Jul-2004 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 176 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
> and many USB classes still missing in Poseidon (audio, euthernet..)

The most important drivers are there in Poseidon (hubs, mice (including wheels), keyboards (including multimedia keys), mass storage (!), printers (!), serial adapters, modems, joystick/jobpads (!), tablets).

Who really needs USB audio? Low quality, high bandwidth, high CPU load output? Well, the Peg has onboard AC97 output, so there is no reason to use USB audio. Of course, this might look differently for the AmigaOne with no onboard sound.

Who needs USB ethernet adapters? The Peg1 has 10/100MBit Ethernet and the Peg2 both 100MBit and 1GBit Ethernet. Why wasting CPU time on packet conversion between USB and ethernet? Why wasting time on writing a custom driver for every chipset?

Trolling or jealousy?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 188 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 19:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Chris Hodges):
Chris, didn´t you hear about the new euter-net class?
sure, he misspeled euthernet and meant euter-net, the "melk die Kuh" Class ;D
With this class, you can simply plug a "kuh" to your usb port, and have various "Milchprodukte".
Well i would love to see the euter-net class in Poseidon. Imagine all the "Kaba" or "Yoghurt" one can make with my Pegasos then.
Oh and, perhaps you can include also a way back into this class?
I mean, with all those "Käse" posted on various Amiga Boards, we surely can have a lot of "Milch" ;D
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 189 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 05-Jul-2004 19:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Johan Rönnblom):
Great that you come off so logical and rational in a debate eh?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 190 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 19:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Johan Rönnblom):
BUT YOU DO NOT KNOW THIS FOR A FACT <PERIOD>

The closest we've ever been able to assess on ann.lu was that the ArticiaS doesn't adhire to the PCI specs (a conversation between me & Nate iirc), there has never been any evidence that the hardware is faulty, and that DMA is impossible, on the contrary, we've heard reasons why it doesn't work (various reasons, including the VIA southbridge, wich is a known pain in the ass and probably did account for some part of the problem), and why it's bloody hard to get it going into linux (or to be more precise, the 2.4 series kernel)

With the limited amount of solid information we have it is IMPOSSIBLE to come to a conclusion that is 100% based on available, verifyable facts.

If DMA drivers work in AOS4, then clearly the hardware is not broken, and if with broken you mean not compliant to some spec sheet, change the wordings, because i'm getting bloody hell tired of your crap.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 191 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 19:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Chris Hodges):
USB>Ethernet adapters have their uses, but they aren't a nessesity, i agree, and USB sound? I've never even seen such a beast :P
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 192 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 05-Jul-2004 19:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Amon_Re):
And to clarify, with facts i don't mean "because xyz said so".
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 193 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 05-Jul-2004 20:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Johan Rönnblom):
Yes. And the reason i'm claiming it works in OS4, is because it DOES work in OS4. It really does. I don't really know what else to tell you. The computer I'm using right now to tell you this is an AmigaOne with OS4, using DMA enabled IDE drivers.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 194 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 20:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 193 (Peter Gordon):
Peter Gordon: My April-less Peg1 worked too, I tell you. That doesn't
mean it wasn't broken.


Amon_Re: Could you then please tell me under which circumstances you
think it would be ok to claim that the AmigaOne (or any other)
hardware actually is broken? It seems to me that by your standards,
nothing is ever broken because you can never know for sure..
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 195 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 05-Jul-2004 21:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 194 (Johan Rönnblom):
So.. something that works perfectly is broken? Yes, that makes perfect sense...
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 196 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 05-Jul-2004 21:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 195 (Peter Gordon):
So how do you know it works perfectly? You're some kind of
Betatesting God?
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 197 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 05-Jul-2004 22:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Johan Rönnblom):
Well, even if your unverified claim of a hardware fault would be true, there is a warranty notice at the bottom of the very same page. Their products comply with standard consumer practices and international law, no need for your "Sverker" act (swedish tv-celebrity).

You know, if the AmigaOne was a person, he could sue you for slander. Now tell me, how would you defend yourself, with your beliefs? Claim that you were "helping" people from becoming friends with him?

Again, we don't need your services of making everyone aware of the "real" truth behind the AmigaOne. There are no facts around to actually prove any of your theories and there is enough trolls throwing mud on the competition of the prefered choice anyway. In short; stop spreading FUD.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 198 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 05-Jul-2004 22:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 196 (Johan Rönnblom):
Because he has not been able to reproduce the so-called bug that everyone claims to be so easy to reproduce?

Johan, please... you're really urinating in head wind here.
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 199 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 05-Jul-2004 22:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Chris Hodges):
Neither trolling nor jealous, just reacting on the phrase "full USB support" in the context it was used. No discredit intended, by all means.. poseidon is wonderfull. :)
Try only to realise the truth : Comment 200 of 335ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X on 05-Jul-2004 22:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 198 (Sammy Nordström):
?
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