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[Forum] Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ?ANN.lu
Posted on 15-Jul-2004 09:49 GMT by Elwood77 comments
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Hi, I just found this item from the past (October 2000). I didn't remember this...
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 1 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 15-Jul-2004 07:54 GMT
Yes, they simply didn't find a way to cooperate. Instead, bPlan joined forces with the former Thendic-France and formed Genesi, who later on filed a lawsuit against Amiga Inc. These companies are really not the best of friends anymore...

Anyway, I really don't think any of this classifies as "news".
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 2 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 15-Jul-2004 08:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
"Yes, they simply didn't find a way to cooperate. Instead, bPlan joined forces with the former Thendic-France and formed Genesi, who later on filed a lawsuit against Amiga Inc. These companies are really not the best of friends anymore... "

That's the story in a nutshell, and may I add: bPlan did deliver the products promised. The other side of the story: In the Executive Update we read about Eyetech's AmigaONE, an AmigaDE for it, Zico specs... All are practically in the trashcan now. In 2001 august, the launch of the new AmigaONE and Haage und Partner's AmigaOS4 was a disaster for many of us. It turned out in the coming months that Amiga Inc has nothing but a disfunct mobo, which never booted up, all the rest was a smoke screen operation. The lawsuit took place due to the very same AmigaDE we read about here, and - what a surprise - Genesi won the lawsuit.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 3 of 77ANN.lu
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Profanity
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 4 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 15-Jul-2004 08:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (James Carroll):
sorry that comment was directed at comment 1 and 2
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 5 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 15-Jul-2004 09:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (James Carroll):
No need to say sorries.. applies to most of the readers here =)


/me *guilty as charged*
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 6 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 15-Jul-2004 09:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (James Carroll):
okay.. I just reread your posts, and I think I overreacted. I'm just sick of "camp" arguments, and this thread looked like it was going to head down that road... but in actual fact the comments have been reasonably neutral and informative so far. I hope it stays that way.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 7 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 15-Jul-2004 09:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (James Carroll):
Especially 3-7, very informative ;-)
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 8 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by James Carroll on 15-Jul-2004 09:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (hooligan/dcs):
hey you gotta nip these things in the bud! .... ok I'm gonna shutup now. :)
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 9 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 15-Jul-2004 09:31 GMT
I'll get me'coat
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 10 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 15-Jul-2004 09:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (James Carroll):
We'll just take Comment #3 as a pre-emptive strike against the trolling that's probably going to follow ;-)

Submarine Captain (to Weapons Officer): "Quietly does it! Don't launch our torpedos unless they fire one..."
Weapons Officer (distracted): What was that Sir? Fire One? Aye,aye Sir!!! <presses big red button>
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 11 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 15-Jul-2004 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Emeric SH):
>That's the story in a nutshell, and may I add: bPlan did deliver the products
>promised.

That depends on what "promise" you are refering to. They have yet to release a product that runs the AmigaDE or AmigaOS.

>The other side of the story: In the Executive Update we read about Eyetech's
>AmigaONE, an AmigaDE for it, Zico specs... All are practically in the trashcan
>now. In 2001 august, the launch of the new AmigaONE and Haage und Partner's
>AmigaOS4 was a disaster for many of us. It turned out in the coming months
>that Amiga Inc has nothing but a disfunct mobo, which never booted up, all the
>rest was a smoke screen operation.

Smoke screen? I don't know. But it's true that Eyetech's partner Escena never delivered the AmigaOne that was supposed to be attachable to the classic Amiga1200/4000 motherboards. That's why Eyetech turned to MAI and their far eastern motherboard designer instead.

>The lawsuit took place due to the very same AmigaDE we read about here, and -
>what a surprise - Genesi won the lawsuit.

I'm not so sure. The latest officialy available court ruling supports your theory, but there is still no response to Amiga Inc.'s request for relief from judgement where they presented evidence of forgery on the behalf of the plaintiff. The whole case went suspiciously silent after that and fact is that there still is no Pegasos version of the AmigaDE available today.

Either Amiga Inc. is not complying with the court ruling and Genesi is not doing anything to enforce it, or the case has simply gone "classified" and things that we don't have a clue about is happening behind closed doors.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 12 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 15-Jul-2004 09:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
> Anyway, I really don't think any of this classifies as "news".

Sure. It should go to the forum but I still don't see a way to post directly there...
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 13 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jul-2004 10:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Emeric SH):
bPlan always delivered products they promised ? Oh wait did you forget A/Box ? :)
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 14 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 15-Jul-2004 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
"bPlan always delivered products they promised ? Oh wait did you forget A/Box ? :)"

Will we blame the current Amiga Inc management for the bankruptcy of Commodore as well? :)
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 15 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 15-Jul-2004 11:21 GMT
I'm very surprised that someone such as Elwood discover such things only now.
Do you know that at some point (was it 2001 ?) Fleecy was shown Morphos on the Pegasos and discussions started to make it be the next AmigaOS.
It was a natural step until Amiga Inc set up unreasonable conditions.
For example dumping Cybergfx in favor of P96 (MorphOS already had Cybergfx V5 native at this time; native P96 is just out). Also breaking the OS and hardware team in two companies to insure that there was no hardware bias (Bplan goal is to sell hardware so that didn't work out too).
All of this explains a lot how this community was forked.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 16 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 15-Jul-2004 11:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Emeric SH):
We have seen the Back to the Future films and know whereof what we speak.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 17 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 15-Jul-2004 12:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Emeric SH):
"bPlan did deliver the products promised"

They did/do deliver more, but after BBRV came in there has been more promises than deliveries, IMO...
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 18 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jul-2004 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Elwood):
>We have also announced another partner, bPlan GmbH, who are creating a new AmigaONE PPC based desktop computer.

Well, at this time, AmigaOne == Pegasos
and I guess AmigaOS 4 = MorphOS

It would have been _so_ simple this way!
No flame war...

Bye
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 19 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 15-Jul-2004 13:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christophe Decanini):
What i never understood is the P96 thing, both CyberGraphics/Picasso are seperate entities to AOS (at that time atleast), why did they insist on having P96? I wish i was there at that time.

Cheers
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 20 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by JKD on 15-Jul-2004 14:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
As much as I hate to reply to an OT post by an anonymous troll. A/Box was to be a Phase5 product....
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 21 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by JKD on 15-Jul-2004 14:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
Indeed, it's 'old news' at best and since Amiga Inc and bPlan could not agree on terms for the operating system and an AmigaOne license, it never happened.

Steve

OT alert : Imagine the harmony we'd all feel if things had been different and MorphOS had become AmigaOS NG...aka AmigaOS 4.0. Would there be any other AmigaOnes than the Pegasos? How far advanced would the platform be now? Idle (and useless) speculation for another thread on another day maybe ;-)
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 22 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jul-2004 14:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
"Anyway, I really don't think any of this classifies as "news"."

It classifies as historical research.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 23 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 15-Jul-2004 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Amon_Re):
"What I never understood is the P96 thing, both CyberGraphics/Picasso are seperate entities to AOS (at that time atleast), why did they insist on having P96? I wish I was there at that time."

Not only P96 instead of CGFX, but also Reaction instead of MUI.

No doubt the history of the row will emerge eventually, but my impression is that the root of it was that they could not agree on whose word on technical decisions was to be final.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 24 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 15-Jul-2004 15:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christophe Decanini):
Christophe, read again please. I said "I didn't remember". Yes I forgot that particular item in the Amiga history.
I just wanted to talk about it, that's all...
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 25 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jul-2004 16:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christophe Decanini):
> Do you know that at some point (was it 2001 ?) Fleecy was shown Morphos on the
> Pegasos and discussions started to make it be the next AmigaOS.

Must have been late 2000/early 2001, IIRC. And, showing MorphOS to Fleecy and
expecting him to take it or go to hell is a bit far off (take the exaggeration
as what it is).

> It was a natural step until Amiga Inc set up unreasonable conditions.

It's not that simple I'd rather. AmigaInc. had made this promise to release a
new hardware platform (after the community insisted on new hardware, AmigaInc.
wanted to stay "software only", don't think they planned it) and they,
obviously, needed an OS. It was planned to be AmigaDE, that did not come pass.
The next, _natural_ step, then is to take what you have, what you _OWN_, and
that was AmigaOS! Definitely not MOS.

It's most likely that AmigaInc. wanted to retain control over the whole OS because it would be their platform for AmigaDE integation and even more so,
3rd party development. They had the d'Amiga before but I wonder if that had
any remarkable sales numbers? So "AmigaOS-NG" was a key to their plans where
they hardly could accept anyone else to control the development. I certainly
would not call that unreasonable.

The failure of AmigaInc. was mostly that they wanted to do too much too soon
and also please the community, if thad had stuck to the AmigaDE only many
people would have been upset, but I think AmigaInc. would be much healthier now.

just 2 ct.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 26 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jul-2004 16:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Anonymous):
> >We have also announced another partner, bPlan GmbH, who are creating a new AmigaONE PPC based desktop computer.

bPlan was founded in October 2000 and announced as a AmigaOne partner at that
Australian show, together with Eyetech.

> Well, at this time, AmigaOne == Pegasos

At that time, AmigaOne = Zico = AmigaOne1200/4000 + Pegasos

> and I guess AmigaOS 4 = MorphOS

and no AmigaOS4 (not even 3.9 yet until that show) at all, but plans for AmigaDE
V1.0. MOS was at 0.4, the Pegasos was not finished and the Articia S was about
to be released 10 months later..

just 2 ct.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 27 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 15-Jul-2004 17:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Anonymous):
Yes the natural step is to sell what you own, but when you own not very much and have a trademark such as Amiga you have to have deals with third parties.
If, as you said the primary focus of Amiga was AmigaDE, then they could have sold a license to bplan to use the Amiga name, the workbench (that MorphOS didn't have at that time) and a few other missing components.
AmigaInc didn't necessarely need to have full control and full technical arbitration on the classic anymore.
Look what happened with Amithlon: The first announced a misleading x86 AmigaOS, then had a deal with HP & HF, BM (that unfortunately did not work out too).
What is certain is that AmigaINC lost good opportunities with MorphOS-Pegasos / Amithlon / AROS and certainly other projects.

@Elwood
This is the kind of things that people usualy do not/ should not forget about specialy when commenting on a daily basis on these forums .
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 28 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 15-Jul-2004 20:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Christophe Decanini):
>What is certain is that AmigaINC lost good opportunities with MorphOS-
>Pegasos / Amithlon / AROS and certainly other projects.

Yeah, they lost the opportunity to give away their rights to what may or may not be associated with their $5 million worth of IP to Ralph Schmidt, Haage&Partner or an open source projet.

Seriously, I think you got it all backwards. It was bPlan that refused to accept that Amiga Inc. wanted some form of control of what their IP was associated with rather than the contrary. What strikes me as odd is that bPlan actually thought Amiga Inc. would simply put the AmigaOS label on their product without asking for anything but license fees in return. This was simply not possible since the AmigaOS product line was in fact a very important key product for their future plans. They simply had to remain in control of the future of the AmigaOS in order secure the future of the AmigaDE. Ironicly enough, this was to become true in a quite unexpected way.

Anyway, not did bPlan only want to be in complete control of the OS, they also wanted to be in complete control of the hardware. This would mean a complete and exclusive right to the entire PPC Amiga computer platform, leaving no room for competition what so ever. Ask Seehund, the man behind the anti AmigaOS4 licensing scheme petition, what he would think of such scenario. This later on led to the public statement on Amiga.com where they announced the terms for anyone to license any hardware as AmigaOne hardware.

So, all in all, of all things Amiga Inc. was negotiating with close to every major key player in the Amiga market about (ie Eyetech, Hyperion, Haage&Partner, Elbox, DCE, et al), bPlan wanted and demanded it all. Does that sound reasonable to you?
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 29 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 15-Jul-2004 21:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
I think things are good as they are now. And like things are now: If you don't like PowerUp guys choose OS4. If you don't like WarpUp guys choose MOS. If you don't like neither of them choose AROS, WinUAE, whatever :-)
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 30 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Jul-2004 22:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
Could you provide links or other evidence to back up your claims? In short, what is the source of this information? You were present at the negotiations?

Or are you rewriting the history?
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 31 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 15-Jul-2004 22:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
I was pretty sure to get such an answer from you.

"This was simply not possible since the AmigaOS product line was in fact a very important key product for their future plans"

Is very wrong if you know how bad Fleecy and co were talking about the classic at this time and about user wishes to have a native PPC system. At that time AmigaDe was supposed to be self hosted and OS4 was not in the plans.
Fleecy said that there were no market and that we should consider the classic line including AmigaOS dead. Selling licenses to Bplan / Amithlon / whoever would have been a way to get some cash in while satisfying the user base and going forward with their other plans.
Because AmigaInc acted the way they did hundreds of people have badmouthed the company everywhere. When you have a very loyal user base you have to take care of them or pay the consequences.

Of course it all changed when Fleecy saw that there was a way to make some money with the classic (OS4, Amithlon etc). Unfortunately for AmigaInc and for us it was handled so bad that we finish with duplicated efforts, aborted projects and a community teared apart.
On the other hand I'm glad that AROS, MorphOS are independent of AmigaInc. Too bad Amithlon couldn't survive in a similar way (eg running AROS instead of OS3.9). I hope that Hyperion will be able to save their work whatever happen with AmigaInc next.

Anyway it is time too look forward instead of looking forever on past mistakes.
Buy yourself an Amiga solution and do something creative with it, this is what was a main attraction on the platform. These forums comments for most of the time are nothing else than a waste of energy.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 32 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 16-Jul-2004 00:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
Revisionist history is the surest sign of a delusional mind.

The control of IP was not the core issue, that AInc was putting unrealistic demands was. (dumping CyberGFX for P96, when no source was avail for P96, is one example) There was not even a concern over the "buyout" clause in the contract. It came down to AInc pulling a "My way or the highway" attitude so I've heard, from members on both sides of the discussion.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 33 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 06:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Christophe Decanini):
>At that time AmigaDe was supposed to be self hosted and OS4 was not in the
>plans.

If that was true, they would have never negotiated with bPlan or anyone else regarding future versions of the classic Amiga product line, now would they? It was because they decided to make use of the classic AmigaOS product line for a gradual migration to the new generation that they began these negotiations to begin with, you know.

Furthermore, how did you come to the conclusion that Amiga Inc. were the ones aborting projects and tearing apart the community? I mean, if I decide to make a Ford clone, announce it to the world as the next generation Ford, produce it and release early versions for anyone to try, and *then* turn to Ford themselves to see if they are willing to license my car as an official Ford car, would it really surprise you if Ford turned me down? Would you expect Ford to embrace the car as an official Ford car, give me complete control of the future for the next generation Ford cars and ask for nothing in return besides a license fee? Get real.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 34 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 06:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Nate Downes):
I've never even heard something that would confirm the P96 term, but even if it would be true, such term still seems quite alot more reasonable than rewriting the whole AmigaOS from scratch, which was the direct result of bPlan's inability to cooperate. If replacing CGX with P96 would've made everyone get along, it would be a quite small prize to pay when considering the damages of having everyone oppose and counter acting each other's efforts.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 35 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 16-Jul-2004 07:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
If replacing CGX with P96 would've made everyone get along, it would be a quite small prize to pay when considering the damages of having everyone oppose and counter acting each other's efforts

No, it just showed that Fleecy had no clue about real things, he was only buzzword expert (remember Ask Fleecy?). Would it be a 'small' price to pay when project had to be thrown few years behind by doing unneeded work by getting at that time not available P96 source, rewritting that asm code to C, splitting current team (ie basicaly throwing away CGX PPC). They would still need to rewrite workbench.library (it is old), most other bits (just look how much time was put into OS4 intuition.library). AROS way was naturaly better, you had cleaner C source, you wouldn't need to give control to vital OS parts to incompetent fools @ Amiga Inc for a small amount gained (official name) ?
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 36 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbj°rn SkjŠret on 16-Jul-2004 07:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
"Seriously, I think you got it all backwards. It was bPlan that refused to accept that Amiga Inc. wanted some form of control of what their IP was associated with rather than the contrary."

You forgot to prepend "I think" to that second sentence, and frankly, what you think (or anyone else for that matter) is hardly relevant, now is it? The fact of the matter is that you don't know anything about what went down during that negociation, nor have you any basis to speculate on, therefore I suggest you drop it...

"What strikes me as odd is that bPlan actually thought Amiga Inc. would simply put the AmigaOS label on their product without asking for anything but license fees in return."

Hey, wait now, isn't this exactly the "sweet deal" Hyperion got? My, how quaint...

"Anyway, not did bPlan only want to be in complete control of the OS, they also wanted to be in complete control of the hardware."

Again, you don't know that, nor have you any basis for speculation...

"This would mean a complete and exclusive right to the entire PPC Amiga computer platform, leaving no room for competition what so ever."

Much like Eyetech does right now (since AInc/KMOS seems unwilling to take on any other licensees (which seems fair .. wouldn't want to screw over your business partner by opening up cheaper alternatives, now would you?), nor is it likely that any big players would have even heard of, much less consider such a license .. and in the end it would also require Hyperion to port the OS first), and as confirmed by Hermans Hyperion get a percentage of those sales...

So, you see, all those unfounded claims you make of the demands of evil bplan somehow seems to have magically come true for those other companies that just happened to be hanging around when this deal fell through, yet you seem to think this arrangement is ok, while your other imaginary one wasn't?


- CISC
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 37 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 16-Jul-2004 08:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Sigbj°rn SkjŠret):
>> "This would mean a complete and exclusive right to the entire PPC Amiga computer platform, leaving no room for competition what so ever."
>Much like Eyetech does right now (since AInc/KMOS seems unwilling to take on any other licensees (which seems fair .. wouldn't want to screw over your business partner by opening up cheaper alternatives, now would you?),

But Eyetech has no control of where AOS4 runs (unless they are the iTec).

Also at this point, it would be insane to support more HW platforms when even the initial AOS4 version is not yet finished.

>nor is it likely that any big players would have even heard of, much less consider such a license ..

For example Elbox (even if it's not a big player) seems to be just waiting for AOS4 release to make their next step.
(IIRC, also Matay was AInc partner at some point ... no I do not DARE to mention Merl*.)

>and in the end it would also require Hyperion to port the OS first),

Right. And Hyperion needs to finish CSPPC, A1 and BPPC versions before any new platform.

>and as confirmed by Hermans Hyperion get a percentage of those sales...

I think that would be true with every product that chips with AOS4 dongle (and maybe even if BIOS is made by Hyperion).


It will be interesting what promises become full filled and what not. I bet 0.1 cent that AOS4.0 ships for more than one platform before MOS does it.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 38 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 08:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (brotheris):
Well, those "incompetent fools" and "buzzword experts" has made AmigaOS4 with PPC native P96 a reality today, using much less time resources than what has been spent on developing MorphOS. Also, please note that the PPC native P96 drivers is just a temporary solution for speeding up the release of AmigaOS4.0 and will be replaced with SNAP in future versions. Yes, you heard me right, what you are saying that it would delay the development of MorphOS by far more than what is reasonable is Hyperion's temporary solution for speeding up the development of AmigaOS4. Ironic, isn't it?

Amiga Inc. needed a flexible solution in order for the OS to be the foundation for their new scalable and hardware independant platform. If MorphOS really was (still is?) that tied to CGX and other third party contributions, it was obviously not going give them the flexibility they needed. Hyperion offered and has delivered today what bPlan couldn't. In addition to that, they are about to provide us with SNAP, which is going to give the OS a much more powerful solution than CGX ever could.

You bPlan supporters can whine about Amiga Inc.'s unrealistic terms all you want, fact is that those unrealistic terms has been made a reality today. bPlan had the opportunity to be the ones to take credit for it, but chose not to. Instead, they thought it would be a so much better idea to merge their company with Thendic-France and become another BBRV puppet. Good luck to them and whatever they intend to achieve with their "Open Desktop Workstation" (sounds awfully alot like Fleecy's "buzzwords", doesn't it?).
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 39 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Analnymous on 16-Jul-2004 08:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Sigbj°rn SkjŠret):
> Hey, wait now, isn't this exactly the "sweet deal" Hyperion got? My, how quaint...

No. For example, Amiga Inc. asked for P96 and...

> Much like Eyetech does right now...

No. Eyetech doesn't control OS.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 40 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 08:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Sigbj°rn SkjŠret):
>"What strikes me as odd is that bPlan actually thought Amiga Inc. would simply
>put the AmigaOS label on their product without asking for anything but license
>fees in return."
>
>Hey, wait now, isn't this exactly the "sweet deal" Hyperion got?

No. Hyperion is writing AmigaOS4 in compliance with the feature set worked out in collaboration with Amiga Inc., like PPC native P96 for example.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 41 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 08:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Sigbj°rn SkjŠret):
>Much like Eyetech does right now (since AInc/KMOS seems unwilling to take on
>any other licensees (which seems fair .. wouldn't want to screw over your
>business partner by opening up cheaper alternatives, now would you?), nor is
>it likely that any big players would have even heard of, much less consider
>such a license .. and in the end it would also require Hyperion to port the OS
>first), and as confirmed by Hermans Hyperion get a percentage of those
>sales...

As already explained to you by others in this thread, Eyetech does not own nor control the OS. The reason for why there is only one "AmigaOne" hardware solution available today is because it would be insane to support more than one hardware solution before the OS has been completed.

What Amiga Inc. opposed was the idea having a hardware manufacturer that would own and control the OS as well.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 42 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by marcik on 16-Jul-2004 09:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
> Also, please note that the PPC native P96 drivers is just a temporary solution
> for speeding up the release of AmigaOS4.0 and will be replaced with SNAP in
> future versions.

P96 and SNAP are two different things. Now communication with gfx cards looks like this: Program -> P96 -> Radeon/VooDoo driver. When SNAP will be ported it will replace Radeon/VooDoo driver, not P96.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 43 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 09:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (marcik):
Exactly. That's why I said "the PPC native P96 *drivers* is just a temporary solution for speeding up the release of AmigaOS4.0 and will be replaced with SNAP".
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 44 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbj°rn SkjŠret on 16-Jul-2004 09:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
"No. Hyperion is writing AmigaOS4 in compliance with the feature set worked out in collaboration with Amiga Inc., like PPC native P96 for example."

What makes you think this was AInc's idea?

"As already explained to you by others in this thread, Eyetech does not own nor control the OS."

..and I didn't say they did.

"The reason for why there is only one "AmigaOne" hardware solution available today is because it would be insane to support more than one hardware solution before the OS has been completed."

Not necessarily, as it would basically "just" be extra support in the HAL, right (and drivers for any additional hardware, but most of that can be delayed or delegated to 3rd parties)? ..but indeed, it is best to focus on just one hardware solution to begin with, so what exactly was the difference between focusing on A1 or focusing on Pegasos?

"What Amiga Inc. opposed was the idea having a hardware manufacturer that would own and control the OS as well."

So they signed on a company that got percentages in the sales of a certain motherboard instead .. wouldn't that basically mean they have a financial interest in promoting this motherboard over any other? ..so again, the difference being?

@priest:

"I think that would be true with every product that chips with AOS4 dongle (and maybe even if BIOS is made by Hyperion)."

I highly doubt you could sucker any hardware manufacturer into this deal, it would only work with resellers that stick on that highly appreciated nametag and bumps the price sufficiently to pay both the license and those percentages...

..and as for the BIOS, it's GPL remember, isn't anyone supposed to be able to make it?

Anyway, the point is that you people (that goes for both sides!) have no basis for your speculations .. either wait for someone who really knows to publish the full details or just drop the crap, it serves no other purpose than to fuel yet another 300+ thread (which can be "fun" enough, but too many of them tends to get boring)...


- CISC
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 45 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbj°rn SkjŠret on 16-Jul-2004 09:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
..and then you proceeded to say "Yes, you heard me right, what you are saying that it would delay the development of MorphOS by far more than what is reasonable is Hyperion's temporary solution for speeding up the development of AmigaOS4. Ironic, isn't it?" .. how does that fit in?

The claim was that it would be silly to replace an already native CGX with a 68k P96, nothing about drivers at all...


- CISC
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 46 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Sigbj°rn SkjŠret):
>"No. Hyperion is writing AmigaOS4 in compliance with the feature set worked
>out in collaboration with Amiga Inc., like PPC native P96 for example."
>
>What makes you think this was AInc's idea?

I'm not. I just thought it would be a perfect example in this context since Christophe claimed that this was one of Amiga Inc.'s terms when negotiating with bPlan. However, as I said earlier, I've still not seen any form of confirmation of such term so maybe Amiga Inc. never had such term when negotiating with bPlan either, I don't know.

>"As already explained to you by others in this thread, Eyetech does not own
>nor control the OS."
>
>..and I didn't say they did.

Not literary, but you said that it is "pretty much" like it.

>"The reason for why there is only one "AmigaOne" hardware solution available
>today is because it would be insane to support more than one hardware solution
>before the OS has been completed."
>
>Not necessarily, as it would basically "just" be extra support in the HAL,
>right (and drivers for any additional hardware, but most of that can be
>delayed or delegated to 3rd parties)? ..but indeed, it is best to focus on
>just one hardware solution to begin with, so what exactly was the difference
>between focusing on A1 or focusing on Pegasos?

Who owns and controls what makes a whole of difference, don't you think?

>"What Amiga Inc. opposed was the idea having a hardware manufacturer that
>would own and control the OS as well."
>
>So they signed on a company that got percentages in the sales of a certain
>motherboard instead .. wouldn't that basically mean they have a financial
>interest in promoting this motherboard over any other?

Why? I mean, what makes you think that they would treat other hardware differently?

> ..so again, the
>difference being?

The difference beeing that the OS is not owned, controlled nor restricted by the hardware manufacturer. Hyperion is free to make a version of the AmigaOS4 for any hardware product that complies with the AmigaOS4 licensing policy, regardless of whatever opinion Eyetech may have about it.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 47 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 16-Jul-2004 10:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
You make no sence, you claim MorphOS is too tied to 3rd party contributions and ignore that AOS4 is just as tied to 3rd party contributions such as Roadshow, ReAction, etc.
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 48 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbj°rn SkjŠret on 16-Jul-2004 10:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
"Who owns and controls what makes a whole of difference, don't you think?"

Not in this case, as it all amounts to the same thing...

"Why? I mean, what makes you think that they would treat other hardware differently?"

Duh, because one offers a financial incentive over any other?

"The difference beeing that the OS is not owned, controlled nor restricted by the hardware manufacturer."

No, but it is owned and controlled and restricted by a company that has a financial stake in the aforementioned hardware, this shouldn't really be too difficult to understand...

"Hyperion is free to make a version of the AmigaOS4 for any hardware product that complies with the AmigaOS4 licensing policy, regardless of whatever opinion Eyetech may have about it."

You're wrong, Hyperion is free to make a version of OS4 for any hardware they see fit (why else would there be OS4 for CS/BPPC?), however they are not very likely to support hardware there is slim-to-no chance they will make money on, now are they?


- CISC
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 49 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordstr÷m on 16-Jul-2004 11:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Sigbj°rn SkjŠret):
>"Who owns and controls what makes a whole of difference, don't you think?"
>
>Not in this case, as it all amounts to the same thing...

Don't be so short sighted.

>"Why? I mean, what makes you think that they would treat other hardware
>differently?"
>
>Duh, because one offers a financial incentive over any other?

No. Any alternative would have the exact same licensing terms and fees.

>"The difference beeing that the OS is not owned, controlled nor restricted by
>the hardware manufacturer."
>
>No, but it is owned and controlled and restricted by a company that has a
>financial stake in the aforementioned hardware, this shouldn't really be too
>difficult to understand...

Financial stake? Well, of course the amount of sold hardware affects the OS developer as well, but more hardware alternatives usually means more OS sales too, you know. What makes you think that another alternative would not mean just as much "financial stake"?

>"Hyperion is free to make a version of the AmigaOS4 for any hardware product
>that complies with the AmigaOS4 licensing policy, regardless of whatever
>opinion Eyetech may have about it."
>
>You're wrong, Hyperion is free to make a version of OS4 for any hardware they
>see fit (why else would there be OS4 for CS/BPPC?),

Of course they can make exceptions for as long as it is OK with the owner of the AmigaOS IP.

>however they are not very
>likely to support hardware there is slim-to-no chance they will make money on,
>now are they?

Of course not. Why would they?
Amiga did have contacts with bPlan ? : Comment 50 of 77ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 16-Jul-2004 11:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Sammy Nordstr÷m):
Well, those "incompetent fools" and "buzzword experts" has made AmigaOS4 with PPC native P96 a reality today, using much less time resources than what has been spent on developing MorphOS. Also, please note that the PPC native P96 drivers is just a temporary solution for speeding up the release of AmigaOS4.0 and will be replaced with SNAP in future versions. Yes, you heard me right, what you are saying that it would delay the development of MorphOS by far more than what is reasonable is Hyperion's temporary solution for speeding up the development of AmigaOS4. Ironic, isn't it?
--

They didn't... Hyperion != Amiga Inc.
The "incompetent fool" and "buzzword expert" is Fleecy Moss and IIRC he didn't
write a single line of code for AmigaOS4.
Remember... AmigaOS4 is *Hyperion's* work, NOT Amiga Inc.'s
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