|[Forum] We should all stand tougether!||ANN.lu|
|Posted on 16-Jul-2004 11:56 GMT by Michal (Edited on 2004-07-17 14:23:44 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä)||76 comments|
Amiga is now so divided that groups is threaten its reputation. More and more people which I try to sell MorphOS or AmigaOS4 to, says that the war/etc discussions between this groups kills the platform. Amiga needs a good reputation and it wont have that before we all agree on that going on with both under one name. Which is AMIGA as PC is in the other side of computing. Amiga is a strong word. People remember it,.. but with Amiga showing off that we have AmigaOne, Pegasos etc++ That the community is running PPC motherboard components. That this community is about beein our self. To show that we are different.
This is good! And we need to turn the negative words against each other over to positive words. We as the Amiga community controlled lots of it, when everything seemed lost. And now were splitted for nothing? Who's to blame? No one! Its about time, its about the time we all have waited. That users, etc companies have found out how good AmigaOS code is. That it is revolutionary in many ways, but it dosen't help when this community trhows snowballs on each sides when actually both sides is fighting for the same thing. To be the next generation Amiga.|
But as Classic Amiga was and is the real Amiga. This new PPC motherboards is not Amiga at all. But they are choices. They have become new choices for everyone. And now we need to rebuild it all. We need to focus on getting Amiga reputation back. And that Amiga as from now on stands for what we all was and are. A userbase that is different and that we really care about each others.
Let us be the Spirit Of Amiga. Let us give Amiga a new life, a community that cares and that wants support from other big companies etc. Medias have allways been overwhelming positive over us. We cannot destroy it now. We need to focus on beeing an alternative platform to Linux, BeOS, Windows, MacOS etc.
Spirit Of Amiga logo
Now lets start to be what Amiga is allways been. The personal computer for home and entertainment areas!
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 51 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 16-Jul-2004 22:17 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 48 (Janne):|
>>It's a utopia. The "choices" available to us are in direct competition with
>>each other and the companies behind them are doing everything they can to
>>oppose each others efforts.
>But there really isn't any need for it to be a utopia. While it certainly
>remains to be seen if it ends up that way, I really don't see any pressing
>reason why it should be like that.
It's not that it should nor that I want it to be like this, I'm just concluding that it is a direct result of the opposing efforts in this tiny market and I don't see anything that could possibly change this. Not now, nor in the near future.
>Sure, I agree we have competing companies out there, and agreed, they are not
>exactly on the best of terms, but why should that reflect to the user base?
Public slandering of the products as well as the individuals behind them, mudslinging, lawsuits, philosophical restrictions and differences to both the hardware and the operating systems making us unable to run the same applications, the inventions of new software as well as hardware standards that is making our systems less compatible, emotional attachments, different paths and strategies for future developments, the complete lack of respect for intellectual properties, the inability to realize our differences, the inability to compromise, the inability to see things through the viewpoint of the other...
How could any of this possibly NOT affect the users? Furthermore, you cannot simply disregard that we're users of different computer systems. I mean, we're not even a part of the same user base to begin with. From a user point of view rather than a technical one, we have about as much in common as an Amiga500 user and a PC user with WinUAE. Different hardware, different operating systems, while the ability to run old 68K Amiga software and a broken dream of the Amiga is the only common denominators.
The only way to solve this situation would be if everyone realized the above instead of acting like priests in the holy church of Amiga. You know, I used to like the idea of an "Amiga spirit" that would be a force of united Amiga users fighting against the mainstream computer platforms. However, today this idea seems to have become some kind of excuse for choosing an alternative computer that doesn't have the Amiga label, like everything is OK as long as it complies with the "Amiga spirit". Wake up and smell the coffee, the idea of trying to keep the "Amiga spirit" alive by applying it to something different goes against what the Amiga spirit was all about. The "Amiga spirit" is something that is supposed to unite us, not give us an excuse for going in different directions. I don't care how Amiga-alike the alternatives become, all of them is taking us in different directions rather than uniting us.
>Let the companies do what they do. That doesn't mean the users (or third
>party companies) can't stick together - no matter how loosely that might be.
Sure, I can get along with people. However, it's hard when the only things we have in common is where we disagree. :-P
>benefits Linux often benefits NetBSD benefits MacOS X benefits UNIX and so
>Why not Amiga?
Simple. Because our operating systems nor most of our applications are open source and the ones developing them are doing everything possible in order for the other to NOT benefit from their achievements. Besides, the jungle of forks and different standards in the *NIX world is NOT something I wish for the Amiga.
>Because we are blind zealots? Well. We are blind zealots, but luckily not the
>whole world is that way and perhaps, just perhaps, some of that rest of the
>world comes down pouring on us one day...
Well, even if they would, don't expect them to understand the concept of an "Amiga spirit" and the lack of a unified standard in hardware as well as software is quite discouraging for a newbie.
>We might at least, in our infinite blindness and zealotry, try to give it a
All I can say to that is "...divided we shall fall".
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 52 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 17-Jul-2004 05:04 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 51 (Sammy Nordström):|
Samface... That's enough... Most of us are already fed up by your non-sense...
A little more and you will really reach Eva's level of repeating yourself...
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 53 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Anonymous on 17-Jul-2004 05:19 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 52 (Alkis Tsapanidis):|
repetitive question result in repetitive replys.
Best in ppl stopped with bringing up the same crap in the first place.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 54 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 17-Jul-2004 05:33 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 52 (Alkis Tsapanidis):|
I responded to Janne, not you. Don't read what I say if you don't like it.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 55 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Janne on 17-Jul-2004 05:39 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 51 (Sammy Nordström):|
>How could any of this possibly NOT affect the users? Furthermore, you cannot simply disregard that
>we're users of different computer systems. I mean, we're not even a part of the same user base
I'm not saying it won't affect the users. I'm just saying that the competition does not necessarily need to reflect on the user base the same way it reflects on the competing companies. I also said that we, as in you and me and many of the folk here today, are probably lost causes. We'll continue our petty squabbles until our noise is drowned by something else...
>Because our operating systems nor most of our applications are open source and the ones developing
>them are doing everything possible in order for the other to NOT benefit from their achievements.
>Besides, the jungle of forks and different standards in the *NIX world is NOT something I wish
Well, UNIX isn't open source either. Yet its open-source forks are what truly have made it a huge success. We have one of those too, AROS - already directly benefiting AmigaOS 3.9 and MorphOS with its codebase. But that's beside the point, really, in my opinion. None of us really wished for the forks we got, but that's history and it happened. Now we can try to make the best of it. Your opinion is that we should do it by separating, my opinion is that we should do it by working together.
We can see some of the benefits already: applications ported between all the platforms, user-groups organizing shows that cover all things with an "Amiga" heritage. Together we are bigger than apart. If, and this is certainly a big if, new markets emerge, new users will join the "community", I'd wager we can get rid of the biggest problem too: us. We old goats have seen too much to really be objective anymore and we fight, but what reason would a new user have to do so. Maybe if there are enough new users, nobody really cares about the past anymore and just concentrates on more productive issues, such as how to get the most applications to our platform, etc.
Who knows about the future, but for the moment AROS, AmigaOS and MorphOS are very, very close API compatibility wise, so inveting a technologial gap that just isn't there seems a bit ideologically motivated. The best proof, in my opinion, are all the applications that keep appearing on ANN with versions for most of the current platforms... That is working together at its best.
No need to talk about ideology, I call these things "Amiga" because I lack a better name for it. Just like many people call Linux and NetBSD "UNIX" because they feel, and IMHO reasonably so, they fall under the same umbrealla. We could call "these things Amiga" anything, we could call it Donald for all I care. It ceased to be about ideology for me a long, long time ago. But the Donald operating systems have much in common and the users and developers can and should, IMHO, benefit from that.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 56 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 17-Jul-2004 05:58 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 55 (Janne):|
Short summary of your post:
>Your opinion is that we should do it by separating, my opinion is that we
>should do it by working together.
It is and always has been my opinion that we should *either* cooperate or go seperate ways. Of course we should cooperate if it is possible to do so. However, since I don't believe it is possible for the former Amiga community to become one happy group of computer users with common goals and interests again, why keep standing in each other's way? ANN.lu is starting to feel more and more like members of rivaling motorcycle gangs locked up in the same room. I'm sure most people in here knows what I mean.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 57 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Janne on 17-Jul-2004 06:30 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 56 (Sammy Nordström):|
>...divided we shall fall
...but let history remember that as free men we chose to make it so!
I just love the amount of drama that we as a community manage to pack into these discussions. All the emotional quotes, religious subtexts and misguided loyalty that would make for a huge block-buster for sure. Given that the target audience be nerds of course... :)
>since I don't believe it is possible for the former Amiga community to become
>one happy group of computer users with common goals and interests again, why
>keep standing in each other's way?
On one thing we agree: we should stop standing in each other's way. While not entirely happy about it (as I don't feel all the issues in need of resolving have been resolved), I'm beginning to feel that we should really let the bygones be bygones and move on - walking together side by side. If we eventually steer to different tangents, and to some extent that is bound to happen, so be it. But there are benefits to be reapt along the way.
Going back to my love of the drama in this community - I admit that is certainly a part of the problem. For many of us, this is what the community has become and is all about these days. We are drawn by the drama more than by the computer itself since for so long this drama has been all the progress the community has seen.
It is hard to let go of it, and perhaps for many of us it is too late. We certainly won't be the building blocks of a new friendlier community, but at least we can bite the bullet and not enforce our own division on a hopefully growing community that really doesn't need to be all the divided. (I'm not saying the future "Amiga" community should do everything together, just that there are benefits in doing something together.)
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 58 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 17-Jul-2004 06:31 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 55 (Janne):|
>The best proof, in my opinion, are all the applications that keep appearing on >ANN with versions for most of the current platforms... That is working
>together at its best.
Sure. However, there is one thing about this development that concerns me, isn't this kind of cross-platfrom oriented programming restricting the developer from making use of platform/OS specific features? I mean, what good is all these new modern functionalities available in the alternatives as well as the original if we can't use them for the sake of retaining compatibility with the other systems?
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 59 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Janne on 17-Jul-2004 06:43 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 58 (Sammy Nordström):|
>However, there is one thing about this development that concerns me, isn't
>this kind of cross-platfrom oriented programming restricting the developer
>from making use of platform/OS specific features?
Sure, to some extent. But that is like asking when to stop supporting Netscape 4 on your website. The author must decide what features are important, could perhaps a core functionality work on all platforms and some other features on just some or one of them...
I'm not advocating doing everything together for all eternity, I'm just saying that we can all benefit from doing some things together.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 60 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 17-Jul-2004 08:07 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 57 (Janne):|
Now we're really getting close to agreeing with each other. In the middle of your talks about the drama in these kind of duscussions, you close to pin pointed exactly what I've been trying to say all along: we need to realize and accept our differences. Right now, this community is acting like a bunch of people from different branches of christianity that is arguing about which church is more "pure" (sorry about making yet another dramatic analogy). We could get along just fine if we would just accept and respect our differences. I mean, it's not until then that we might actually have a constructive relationship and possibly collaborate on those issues that we do have in common.
However, these kind of things cannot be forced either. Most oftenly, it takes a climax or something really drastic in the conflict before everyone is able to realize that the other party is not going away and that we need to learn co-existing with each other. Co-existing doesn't neccessarily mean that we have to become re-united as one community or striving towards some form of common goal, just avoiding the conflict and focus on what will benefit our prefered choice rather than trying to fight the alternatives.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 61 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Ryu on 17-Jul-2004 10:12 GMT|
|* Ryu is playing: Paul McCartney - We All Stand Together.mp3|
win or loose, sink or swim, one thing is certain we'll never give in, side by side, hand in hand, we all stand together (buh buh)
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 62 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by 3seas on 17-Jul-2004 11:45 GMT|
|I suspect Christian Kemp needs to start a new forum titled something along the lines of humor, perhaps "The funnies", for this thread sure is funny.|
First off you don't blame consumer choice for things gone bad unless you are some communist dictator or such. And hey like it or not we all really do know that the consumers had absolutely nothing to do with such complete mismanagement of the Amiga technology.
Second off, The Amiga and Amiga like lines aren't diddly squat in comparison to other more well known and far better supported systems proprietary and open source... The only people that remember Amiga are those who actually knew it to remember it now, when Commodore had it then.
So you want to sell t-shirts and coffee mugs under some out of touch with reality perspective banner...
boo hoo, there is to much divide going on.....so lets divide it some more.... get in line for you tee-shirt and coffee mug.... instead of puting your money to better use in more directly support of your flavor...
If there is any blame to place.... its on bone headed marketeers...
You want a community gathering? Over what? What's the realistic focal point, if there need be one?
Or better yet, what came first, the community or the Amiga (this really new and cool computer that can do more than the competition)?
Sorry but the hard fact is that, that core point for the gathering no longer exist.
There is no more fun hardware hacking or software coding, etc.. that the Amiga brought at its introduction and maintained until Commodore pulled the core plug.
A realistic picture of what is current is simply a multi-route effort to find a way to not forget what we liked about the platform. And the only ones it really matters to are those involved in doing something about it, the rest are just observers or potential customers if you are looking from such a perspective.
To focus on what we all have in common, its simply most of us (not all) knew and used Amigas when Commodore manufactured it. There are quite a few who didn't get involved until after that fact (Including Bill McE and fleecy..)
But even today most all the original and commodore hired Amiga Developers don't see teh Amiga as being Alive or even up to par with what else is available.
Even I'm beginning to realize that Linux and other Uni* distros will probably incorporate such functionality I liked about Amiga before any of the Amiga redo efforts get complete enough. So it'll be an Amiga and like catchup to more popular and better supported works.
Amithlon shown a PC market for Amiga was there, but it was shot down and now the proprietary is for PPC..... go figure....
You want to be different.....????? Different than what? Popular and well supported?
Supprise!!! you are already there!!!
Careful..... don't lose such a prized position in the market!!!!
But now do you see that the divide isn't a divide at all, but a supporting method to give you waht you want...
How much are teh t-shirts and coffee mugs?
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 63 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Atheist2 on 17-Jul-2004 12:33 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 62 (3seas):|
That read like a John C. Dvorak magazine column, very good. (I almost always like his articles/rants.)
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 64 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Janne on 17-Jul-2004 13:39 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 60 (Sammy Nordström):|
Yes, well, I'm glad we see eye to eye on lot of things. I don't really agree with your use of the word Amiga (I think that borders zealotry, not just brand loyalty), since I'm more of a "UNIX is more than just UNIX, it also means Linux etc." kind of a guy (meaning that I think practice has expanded the meaning of the word UNIX, just like Amiga, beyond its original brand scope), but otherwise, sure, we need to respect each other and build from that.
As for the original posting, I think we need to drop the religious references and the cult antics. That, really, is the thing that makes us look funny to the outside world. That includes postings like the original, where Amiga seems more like a religion.
I think we should drop excessive brand loyalty as well. UNIX purists usually look pretty bad to regular computing folk. So do Amiga purists, considering that anything left of Amiga these days can hardly be called pure... I recently bought a Mac, and they seem to have some of the weirdest purists around. They always look and make their computer of choice look bad. Misplaced loyalty. Luckily there are a lot of very nice Mac fans, who are far more reasonable. People who don't take everything from Apple as gospel, but really think for themselves. We should look things as users, not as company reps.
The "spirit of Amiga" can be vodka with AmiCola mixer for all I care.
For me this is not about ideology or coming up with rallying calls for the troops (that part of me woke up a long time ago). I'm just saying lets be practical about this: We have three essentially API compatible platforms, all very much Amiga-like, each with its unique strengths and each with its own following. There is more to be gained by working, no matter how loosely, together than by trying to tear us all apart. One couldn't completely succeed in the latter anyway, even if you tried - some contact between the parties would always remain.
This is one case where far more can be accomplished by trying to take some positive steps, even if they are small ones and even if they make you gringe personally.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 65 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Amon_Re on 17-Jul-2004 21:02 GMT|
|Well this thread certainly got big...|
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 66 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 19-Jul-2004 03:41 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 64 (Janne):|
My support for the companies with rights or a license to the brand has nothing to do with zealotry nor fanaticism. For me, it's all about trying to rebuild the Amiga market again.
A few thousand enthusiasts scattered all over the world, mostly bedroom coders or just exotic computer geeks, divided even further by different hardware and operating systems that is offering different and overly optimistic paths for the future that is replaced every third or fourth year, mostly before it has even materialized, by bancrupcies, buyouts and startups, etc. These are all things that are making it extremely difficult to build up a market value.
What we need is one unified Amiga standard (hardware as well as operating system), a loyal userbase that is willing to make that little extra effort and a realistic objective for the future with a good balance between risk and progress so that the hardware and software might actually be able to mature into viable products. What we don't need is a multitude of companies pulling us in different directions (using every means possible, even mudslinging and legal action), much less an open source movement.
I mean, with just a few thousands of enthusiast scattered all over the world, there simply is not enough purchasing power in this market to provide for a multitude of product alternatives nor enough developers that knows OS programming in order to provide for an open source alternative. We're having problems with providing for a single alternative as it is.
Furthermore, having a multitude of Amiga alternatives that all are competing for a total control of their market segment prevents us from sustaining a unified Amiga standard. Nowadays, we don't just have different hardware, we have different operating systems as well. The only thing our alternatives has in common is basicly just those old AmigaOS3.1 APIs and 68k emulation for backwards-compatibility. Who cares about any of that? We've had UAE for years alread which runs those old games and applications with much better compatibility. What we really need is to catch up with the rest of the desktop computer industry, new modern OS features such as virtual memory, memory protection, drivers for new modern devices, etc. However, as soon as the programmer of an application makes use of such features, the application has no longer the ability to be cross-compiled for another Amiga alternative. This is the reality of the Amiga software market today.
And for those of you that are not worried about such incompatibility issues, is it really that easy to forget the days of the Phase5 vs Haage&Partner war? This split in the PPC Amiga software market turned my BlizzardPPC expansion board into my biggest waste of money ever. I regret buying it because I had to dual boot between AmigaOS with WarpUP and AmigaOS with PowerUP in order to run all of my PPC software. It was insane and it is in my belief that the Amiga market would have probably been better without those PPC expansion boards.
I think that it is absolutely absurd now that we are basicly repeating this insanity, even ten times worse since we have gone from having different PPC libraries to entire operating systems. My guestimate would be that there are more people among the Amiga enthusiasts that are still using their classic Amiga computers than there are people who has "upgraded" to any of these new alternatives simply because so many have been discouraged by the lack of unity and direction for the future. This is one group in the Amiga community that those of us who has already decided on which alternative we prefer often seem to forget while fighting with each other.
This is why the community, users as well as companies, so desperately need to either start cooperating or go seperate ways. Everything in between is nothing but destructive for all parties involved. For example, Amiga Inc. already spent their first two years in office on negotiating for the sake of unity and came out empty handed. That was two valuble years of development on AmigaOS4 that went down the drain. Also, for the last few years, Genesi and Amiga Inc. has spent quite alot of their time and resources on legal action against each other, time and money that would have been better spent on development, IMO.
All of these years with constant bickering and destructive behaviour from all sides tells me that we do NOT have the ability to become one unified community again. Everytime someone tries, it's like someone banging his head in to a brick wall to see wether it will hurt as much as it did the last time. Why is it so hard to simply let everyone do their own thing instead of criticising everyone that hasn't made the same choices as we have? Why do we always have to look for each other's flaws? Why do we always have to take every opportunity to provoce?
Forgive me for beeing such a pessimist, but there is simply too much emotions involved in this community, not just among us users. No logo nor forum post will ever be able to change that.
"The name" issue is a good example of the fanaticism in this community. Almost everybody, including myself, say that they are not followers of "the name" and don't have some form of emotional attachment to it. However, I once suggested that only users of "the name" computers would be members of the Amiga community, while everyone else would be members of the community for the same computer as they use rather than the Amiga community. The result was hundreds of very upset posts were people tried to explain to me about the "Amiga spirit" and some posts even had to be deleted because they were violating the ANN.lu posting guidelines.
It's funny how those of us who see the name for what it really is, a trademark for a certain computer product line, are called "blind followers", while those who has invented some kind of religion that they call the "Amiga spirit" are the ones that "don't care" about the name...
Anyway, sorry about the lengthy post (is it some kind of record?). I hope you were patient enough to read it in full and perhaps even got to see a few things out of my point of view, in which case I would be very grateful.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 67 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Janne on 19-Jul-2004 05:16 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 66 (Sammy Nordström):|
OK. I think you make your point, once again, quite nicely. I just disagree. :)
I have divided my reply into three sections that I think respond to the major points of your post.
>What we don't need is a multitude of companies pulling us in different directions (using every means
>possible, even mudslinging and legal action), much less an open source movement.
There are two sides to this issue in my opinion: a) It is already done, so how to best live with it. b) You can not just take things out of context.
I'll deal with b) first. I'll make the bold claim that without MorphOS there might not be AmigaOS 4. I'm not saying this is necessarily so, but I am saying that MorphOS has kept the momentum going on a market that was stagnated for a long time. It emerged as a viable alternative only when no other alternative was out there. It is not like it came after some great new future was already forming. We don't know what kind of an AmigaOS 4 we might have today if no MorphOS ever existed. Would there be the competition, the same kind of driving force behind it?
These things were claimed impossible or too impractical for years. After MorphOS proved them possible, we have seen a steady stream of PPC native applications enter the market and both AmigaOS and AROS development have gained a lot of momentum. Would that momentum have been there if no MorphOS existed? Maybe. But then again, maybe not. If anything, I think MorphOS kept some of the Amiga enthusiasts around a bit longer - and some of those who stayed on because MorphOS gave them something to do are nowadays developing for AmigaOS 4 as well.
So, things never exist or live in a vacuum. The unfortunate sides you see in the current situation are not the whole story. We will never know what might have happened, but the unified future might not be any more brighter for all we know. I do admit, freely, that I wish more cooperation existed and I, as much as the next guy, long for the days when Commodore ruled and we had a clear path to follow...
Which brings be to a). There, really, is nothing we can do about the division. It is real, it is here, and it shall exist for the foreseeable future. I believe we, as a community, will do better by cooperating than trying to alienate each other. You think otherwise. Fine. That is where we disagree, though.
>Forgive me for beeing such a pessimist, but there is simply too much emotions involved in this
>community, not just among us users. No logo nor forum post will ever be able to change that.
On this, we mostly agree. With the exception that I believe, at least in the possibility, that new people flowing in to the extended Amiga community may be able to change that - not change the old bitter people like you and me, but the atmosphere. People who haven't been here around the wars of the past few years have no reason to have such strong emotions attached and, logic follows, are more likely to look things more practically and reasonably. Perhaps this won't happen, but I believe in the possibility, and thus, think that even us old goats should do what we can to enable this future.
>"The name" issue is a good example of the fanaticism in this community. Almost everybody, including
>myself, say that they are not followers of "the name" and don't have some form of emotional
>attachment to it. However, I once suggested that only users of "the name" computers would be
They don't? :) Well, I would have to disagree with that. However, I would also have to agree that there are many people following a different path who still would like to associate themselves with the old name for sentimental reasons. I'll give you that, and I don't agree with that any more than I agree with the spirit-raising in the original posting. I really, really, don't give a rats behind about all that.
For me, this is a practical issue.
Are you familiar with the words nylon or röntgen? Both are generic terms nowadays, but both used to be trademarks. Discussing about trademark laws and company policies aside, I am of the opinion that the meaning of words is defined by their use rather than trademark owner's policy (and, a bit about laws, trademark laws agree with me to an extent). I'm not in any way advocating or condoning commercial misuse of trademarks, but I am saying that everyday talk can and sometimes does expand the meaning of words beyond their brand scope. When I invoke the word UNIX in any discussion with regular computer folk, the word, for most people, covers Linux, NetBSD, Solaris... Some even think MacOS X, even though only one of the mentioned operating systems is really UNIX(R).
MorphOS is clearly not AmigaOS and any person saying so (and I know there are such people) is a zealot and should shut up (sorry for the broad brush). However, I do feel that MorphOS belongs to the "Amiga" family of operating systems, together with AmigaOS and AROS. They have much of the same API, they are very compatible, they are all based on the same original AmigaOS design etc. Saying that MorphOS has nothing to do with Amiga is no more, no less than trademark talk. Just like the word UNIX, to me and to many people, the meaning of the word Amiga has expanded. Partly via official trademark owners words (we now consider things like AmigaDE somewhat related), partly due to world events that reshaped our market just like the UNIX market was reshaped years ago.
You often like to use your Ford car analogy. I do think it is a misplaced analogy, because cars are cars and operating systems are operating systems. I think UNIX is a far better analogy. But for the fun of it, I'll play along. You say only Ford can build Ford cars. Sure. But what if I build spare parts for a Ford car? Are they not Ford parts? Sure, they are not Ford(R) parts. But they are still spare parts for a Ford car. People discuss them as Ford parts, even when they are not Ford(R) parts. What if that spare part would happen to be the computer of the car with compatible logic and all? What if I were to continue replacing parts in the Ford with my clone parts until nothing original remained... What is my car now? Where would you draw the line - when does the car cease to be a Ford?
Luckily in most civilized countries trademarks are there to protect commercial interests against commercial misuse, not to impose limitations on what regular folk can or can not say in the street. People still shape the language as they see fit, like it should be.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 68 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by hooligan/dcs on 19-Jul-2004 05:56 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 64 (Janne):|
>The "spirit of Amiga" can be vodka with AmiCola mixer for all I care.
Tried that. It wasn't that good.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 69 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Janne on 19-Jul-2004 07:45 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 68 (hooligan/dcs):|
>Tried that. It wasn't that good.
So it must really be the spirit of Amiga? ;)
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 70 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Hagge on 19-Jul-2004 12:09 GMT|
|"Amiga is now so divided that groups is threaten its reputation. More and more people which I try to sell MorphOS or AmigaOS4 to, says that the war/etc discussions between this groups kills the platform."|
Does it really matter when you try to sell somethning which doesn't exist? ;D
war, love it! :D
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 71 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Nate Downes on 20-Jul-2004 13:24 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 67 (Janne):|
My LeBaron has a piece of Mopar big-iron between it's wheels, a 383. It's heads and manifold are made by Edelbrock, the exhaust headers are hand-made, the water pump by moroso, the carb by holley.... they're all Chrysler parts to me as they go in my Chrysler car to power by Chrysler motor.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 72 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 21-Jul-2004 10:31 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 67 (Janne):|
>I'll make the bold claim that without MorphOS there
>might not be AmigaOS 4.
Bullocks. MorphOS existed prior to the day Amiga Inc. decided to drop the classic AmigaOS product line and Amiga Inc. only changed their minds because they realized that they will need a traditional desktop OS as a foundation/host for the AmigaDE. Amiga Inc. even proposed to bPlan that MorphOS could become the official next generation OS, but we all know how that went.
I know this might provoce some people that didn't like the bold plans of Amiga Inc., but it's more accurate to say that AmigaOS4 wouldn't have been if it wasn't for Amiga Inc.'s plans for the AmigaDE, while MorphOS is just something that "could have been" but decided to be in opposition instead.
>I'm not saying this is necessarily so, but I am saying
>that MorphOS has kept the momentum going on a market that was stagnated for a
Well, I'd rather say they provided us with an alternative. Linux is hardly keeping the "momentum" of UNIX alive.
>These things were claimed impossible or too impractical for years.
Or, atleast not feasible without making it a joint effort, supported by the industry as well as the community. The problem for the Amiga never was a technical one, you know.
>After MorphOS proved them possible, we have seen a steady stream of PPC native
>applications enter the market and both AmigaOS and AROS development have
>gained a lot of momentum. Would that momentum have been there if no MorphOS
>existed? Maybe. But then again, maybe not. If anything, I think MorphOS kept
>some of the Amiga enthusiasts around a bit longer - and some of those who
>stayed on because MorphOS gave them something to do are nowadays developing
>for AmigaOS 4 as well.
MorphOS is not keeping anyone around in the Amiga community anymore than Linux. Perhaps it may have been a toy to play around with while waiting for the real thing for some people, but MorphOS has always been about providing Amiga users with a transition to the Pegasos platform rather than to rebuild the Amiga market, just like the rest of the operating systems that the Pegasos is capapble of running. This is what Genesi's "operating system independant hardware platform" strategy is all about. I even remember Bill Buck talking about "expanding" the API compatibility of MorphOS into encompassing more than just AmigaOS.
>Which brings be to a). There, really, is nothing we can do about the division.
>It is real, it is here, and it shall exist for the foreseeable future. I
>believe we, as a community, will do better by cooperating than trying to
>alienate each other. You think otherwise. Fine. That is where we disagree,
I see how developers can increase their targeted market segment by cross-compiling their productions that doesn't require any next-generation OS features, but that's just business without having to interact with anyone. In what way are you suggesting that we should cooperate other than be polite against each other and talk about good old times?
>>Forgive me for beeing such a pessimist, but there is simply too much emotions
>>involved in this community, not just among us users. No logo nor forum post
>>will ever be able to change that.
>On this, we mostly agree. With the exception that I believe, at least in the
>possibility, that new people flowing in to the extended Amiga community may be
>able to change that - not change the old bitter people like you and me, but
Again, the lack of a unified standard and the different paths for the future is quite discouraging for a newbie. Furthermore, none of the alternatives in this community has anything to offer for anyone not already interested in Amiga computers. For the time beeing, anyone wanting to try out an Amiga for the first time would be much better off with a PC with WinUAE.
>Are you familiar with the words nylon or röntgen? Both are generic terms
>nowadays, but both used to be trademarks.
Amiga is NOT a generic term for a computer. For example, we know that atleast a million people have heard of the term in association with a *specific* computer, namely the Amiga 500, but only a few thousands have heard of such thing as an Amiga alternative or clone. You have a long way to go before you will be able to convince the rest of the world, you know.
>Discussing about trademark laws and
>company policies aside, I am of the opinion that the meaning of words is
>defined by their use rather than trademark owner's policy (and, a bit about
>laws, trademark laws agree with me to an extent). I'm not in any way
>advocating or condoning commercial misuse of trademarks, but I am saying that
>everyday talk can and sometimes does expand the meaning of words beyond their
>brand scope. When I invoke the word UNIX in any discussion with regular
>computer folk, the word, for most people, covers Linux, NetBSD, Solaris...
>Some even think MacOS X, even though only one of the mentioned operating
>systems is really UNIX(R).
Thank you for pointing out the problem of using such generic meaning of a product label. Ever wondered what the GNU part in GNU/Linux stands for? You see, it has actually become a problem for UNIX derivates since it makes them less unique and treated as a part of a group rather than different operating systems with it's own set of unique features.
Imagine if the Amiga market would get labeled as a group of various AmigaOS3.1 compatible alternatives rather than a retro computer trying to make a comeback with updated hardware as well as operating system, do you really think it would benefit any of the alternatives? I don't think so. A better approach would be making the original a success first, then open up for competition (the IBM-PC approach), or simply license the alternatives as official Amiga computers (the current AmigaOS4 licensing policy).
>You often like to use your Ford car analogy. I do think it is a misplaced
>analogy, because cars are cars and operating systems are operating systems. I
>think UNIX is a far better analogy. But for the fun of it, I'll play along.
>You say only Ford can build Ford cars. Sure. But what if I build spare parts
>for a Ford car? Are they not Ford parts? Sure, they are not Ford(R) parts. But
>they are still spare parts for a Ford car. People discuss them as Ford parts,
>even when they are not Ford(R) parts. What if that spare part would happen to
>be the computer of the car with compatible logic and all? What if I were to
>continue replacing parts in the Ford with my clone parts until nothing
>original remained... What is my car now? Where would you draw the line - when
>does the car cease to be a Ford?
When it has been demolished beyond recognition on a scrapyard.
But then, if you make use of those spare parts for assembling complete cars and sell them as Ford cars, expect Ford's lawyers knocking on your door.
>Luckily in most civilized countries trademarks are there to protect commercial
>interests against commercial misuse, not to impose limitations on what regular
>folk can or can not say in the street. People still shape the language as they
>see fit, like it should be.
Due to my interest in the Amiga computer and neverdying wish for it's comeback, I prioritize the value of the Amiga's brand recognition over the "need" to redefine the word as a generic term for anything resembles the real thing. Furthermore, 99% of the people in the streets has not even heard of the Amiga, much less the alternatives.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 73 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Nate Downes on 21-Jul-2004 13:37 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 72 (Sammy Nordström):|
>But then, if you make use of those spare parts for assembling complete cars and
>sell them as Ford cars, expect Ford's lawyers knocking on your door.
People did. Ford did. The case was thrown out of court. Hence why today I can go out and buy my own Ford Shelby Cobra kitcar, running authentic Ford automotive parts, for a fraction of the price of owning an original. I can even proudly sport a Cobra logo on my steering wheel.
But then again, we're talking Ford crap and who'd want that anyways? Mopar or No Car is what I say!
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 74 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 21-Jul-2004 15:22 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 73 (Nate Downes):|
The example we discussed was about *non-authentic* Ford parts assembled into complete cars and sold as real authentic Fords. It's a completely different situation if you use real authentic Ford parts, now isn't it?
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 75 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Nate Downes on 22-Jul-2004 14:01 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 74 (Sammy Nordström):|
How many Shelby chasis do you think Ford produced? According to Carol Shelby, less than 1000. There are, according to the US's own road statistics, over 40,000 Shelby kit-cars on the road. So that means someone, somewhere, produced their own Shelby bodies and did not use Fords.
|We should all stand tougether! : Comment 76 of 76||ANN.lu|
|Posted by Sammy Nordström on 23-Jul-2004 09:46 GMT|
|In reply to Comment 75 (Nate Downes):|
So? I mean, what has that got to do with selling complete cars without a single authentic Ford part as authentic Ford cars?
Now, these pathetic attempts to rip apart my analogy is getting ridiculous. Simply answer me this; do you or do you not understand the point I was trying to make with that analogy? If you just look beyond all those irrelevant details and see my analogy for what it really is, it really shouldn't be that hard to understand.
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