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[News] Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4ANN.lu
Posted on 18-Jul-2004 12:20 GMT by Jens Schönfeld469 comments
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During the first months of this year, we were totally surprised by the overwhelming demand for Catweasel MK3. All stock has been sold, and even our retail partners do not have anything left in stock. The demand was so high that one controller even went for more than 150,- EUR on eBay!
Unfortunately, it turned out that a new production run of the existing MK3-design cannot be done for reasonable prices, so a re-design became necessary. The new controller is now in the first stage before mass production, so we're confident to be able to show the first controllers at the Amiwest show on july 24th and 25th in Sacramento, Califoria.

Many improvements have been made compared to the Catweasel MK3 that can be summarized under the headline "bigger, better, faster". The changes in detail

The most obvious change is the size of the card: With only 2.5 inch (63.5mm) height, it complies with the low-profile PCI standard that not only fits into any normal computer case, but also in flat models that are so famous among so-called "case-modders". The Flipper-interface will not be continued. Those who need a Catweasel for their classic Amiga can use the Catweasel Z-II S-Class, which is still availble.

Improvements on the floppy controller
Kylwalda built in
While the old Catweasel models always had their own floppy drives that were installed in addition to the existing controller and drives, the MK4 has the option of using the existing diskdrives. After the machine has started, th drives can be used just like before, and after the drivers have been loaded, the Catweasel can take control of these drives when necessary. This is especially useful for smaller cases with fewer drive bays.
We already addressed this problem earlier with an additional product called 'Kylwalda'.

Suppot for auto-eject drives
These drives without eject-button are well-known from Macintosh computers, and they're now fully supported by the Catweasel. You can also mix floppy types, one with an eject-button, and another from the Macintosh world on the same cable.

Hard-sectored disks supported
This kind of 5.25 and 8 inch disks were already readable with the previous Catweasel models, but writing was only possible with a high software effort, and it required a realtime operating system. This effort is not necessary any more with the new controller, because new options allow complete support of these disk types in hardware.

dual-ported memory
Contrary to it's predecessors, the new Catweasel MK4 can pass the data that it is currently reading from a disk to the computer while the read access is running. This allows realtime emulation, and errorfree function of copy-protected software on emulators.

more flexible read- and write operations
In addition to working on whole tracks, which made all previous Catweasel models so flexible, tracks can now also be accesed in part very precisely. Should this become necessary for compatibility or speed reasons, the Catweasel MK4 is perfectly prepared.

extensive timer-functions
Although most operating systems already offer timer-functions in software, you cannot always rely on them. The most recent example are the timing-problems that occur with Hyperthreading-processors and Windows operating systems. Since all timers are running independantly in the hardware of the Catweasel MK4, nothing can go wrong in this regard.

all events can trigger an interrupt (IRQ)
Together with the hardware-timer functions, this is the best solution for multitasking operating systems. The driver software does not have to check regularly if the controller needs attention, which reduces the processor load.

Improvements on the keyboard interface

In addition to Amiga-keyboards, PS/2 devices can now also be connected. Not only keyboards, but also PS/2 mice are supported. The keyboard controller can now trigger IRQs, and for those customers who want to continue using their favourite combination of PS/2 mouse and keyboard on USB-only computers, the Catweasel MK4 has two connectors of this kind.

Improvements on the joystick ports

Amiga mice supported in hardware
Amiga mice only have minimal electronics that always pass the movements of the device to the computer in realtime. Classic Amiga computers have hardware-support for interpretation of these signals in the chipset, and this support has now been added to the Catweasel. Theoretically, using Amiga mice was already possible with the Catweasel MK3, but this required a software effort that was not justifiable. With the new hardware, the software effort is reduced to a minimum.

every signal can be programmed as output
The digital joystick ports of the 8-bit computers of the 80s were mostly usable in two directions, they were not only inputs, but also programmable as data outputs. We're following this tradition, and also present this possibility for the Catweasel MK4.

compatible with CD32 pads
The game controllers of the Amiga CD32 can now also be used on the Catweasel. A special capability of the classic Amigas (and therefore also of the CD32) made these pads exclusive for this computer, if connected to other computers, not all buttons of the pad could be used. Technically speaking: Even the potentiometer-pins of the digital joystick ports can be programmed as outputs on the Catweasel MK4.

Improvements on the SID audio part

DC-DC converter eliminates noise
On the Catweasel MK3, it was possible that noises from 3D-graphics cards or high-speed harddrives were coupled into the 12V-power supply of the SID audio part. This cannot happen any more on the Catweasel MK4, because a DC-DC converter is an insuperable obstacle for such noises.

cycle-exact control
In addition to the known programming that's compatible with the Catweasel MK3, the MK4 has a sophisticated script-language for SID control. This lets the programmer define the exact time for data that's being written into the SID chips. To make sample playback sound exactly like on a real C64, the data rate to the SID chip must be kept at a constant rate. This is accomplished with Fifo memory that's big enough to maintain the datarate even under high processor load conditions.

Digiboost for new SID versions
As opposed to the 'classic SID' 6581, the newer SID-chips 8580 and 6582 cannot playback samples any more. This option, which is also called 'the fourth voice', is replaced by two sigma-delta converters on the Catweasel MK4, so the fourth channel is also audible with the newer SID versions. Since the filter properties and the sound of mixed waveforms of all SID versions have their supporters, this should make the decision for the right chip a little easier.

Filter capacitors selectable
Commodore has defined three different capacitor values for the filters of the SIDs during the years that this chip has been produced. The result was that the same chip sounded differently if used in different computers. To bring the sound as close as possible to what you are used to, the filter capacitors can be chosen with a few jumpers.

precise clocking
The Catweasel MK3 used the commodore-chip 8701 to recreate the exact same clock. Since our stock of this chip is empty with the Catweasel MK3 being sold out, we have cloned it on the main logic chip of the Catweasel MK4: The exact base frequency is generated with crystals that have been made especially for us. By division and multiplication according to the specifications of the C64 schematics from 1982, we managed to replace the 8701, which is not made any more. Even the slight difference between PAL and NTSC computers is software-selectable!

two SIDs for stereo sound
You'll have twice the SID pleaseure after installing a second SID chip. Every SID has it's own selection of filter capacitors, and SIDs of all versions can be mixed.

Technology improvements

compatible with 3.3V and 5V PCI slots
Even though PC boards with 3.3V PCI slots are not yet widely available, the Catweasel is prepared for it. The roadmap of the PCI special interst group plans to abandon 5V PCI slots within forseeable time, and the Catweasel is perfectly suited for that date. Local generation of the 3.3V power also ensures proper function on early PCI motherboards that do not comply with the ATX standard.

two DMA interfaces
In addition to processor-based data transfer, the Catweasel MK4 can excahnge data with the main system through two low-speed DMA channels: The first goes throught he PCI slot, and it has a capacity of about 8K per second and direction. The second uses the direct connection to the onboard-floppy controller, and the speed is up to 100K per second.

low power consumption
The Catweasel MK4 makes use of the latest FPGA technology with 2.5V core voltage. This reduces the power consumption of the new controller to a fraction of what the Catweasel MK3 used. This also reduces heat generation a lot.

re-configurable logic
The FPGA on the Catweasel MK4 is completely re-configurable by the drivers. This means that a hardware update can be done through the internet! Should we find a disk format that cannot be handled with the current hardware, the core of the Catweasel can be 're-wired' to address the problem. The controller doesn't even have to be taken out of the computer for ths update!

drivers for many operating systems
The Catweasel MK4 is delivered with drivers for Windows 98(se)/ME/XP/2000, Amiga OS4, and for Mac OS X at a later date. MorphOS drivers are available for a surcharge.

The Catweasel MK4 will be available starting october 2004.
The target retail price is 99,- EUR.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 151 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Jul-2004 15:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Darrin):
Darrin, some people buy even AmigaOne coupons!
50€ off the price of a non-existant HW with non-existing SW support. LOL!

(I did it too... not the only time I've been pretty sure of "wasting the money", but still did it...)
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 152 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 15:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (snowblood):
Isn't that what I said?
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 153 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 15:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (Don Cox):
> The floppies have been discussed many times. Some of us have boxes and boxes
> full of Amiga floppies. It is usually easier to install a program from the
> original floppies than from a backup on CD.

Floppies don't last forever, you better back them up before's too late.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 154 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 15:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 150 (priest):
Yes it was a flipper... I could quote from his emails, but I won't, as that's probably going a tad too far... But the bottom line is; I'm very dissapointed with all this.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 155 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 19-Jul-2004 15:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 151 (priest):
I have one of those magic coupons too. I call it magic because it's invisible... just like my t-shirt!!! ;-)

I've also made a deposit on an Amiga-On-A-PCI card. I dn't expect to be able to use that any time soon either....
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 156 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 19-Jul-2004 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 154 (Adam Waldenberg):
Was the Flipper advertised for the Pegasos 1 and 2? This is an honest question as I can't remember the advertising at the time.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 157 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 15:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 155 (Darrin):
Amigaland: the paradise of scammers.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 158 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 15:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 156 (Darrin):
I'm not sure... But it was "supported", that's the bottom line.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 159 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 19-Jul-2004 15:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Fabio Alemagna):
Yep, it's sad to admit it, but there are a few about... :-(
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 160 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 19-Jul-2004 15:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Fabio Alemagna):
Of course their are races Fabio, please take a course in anthropology sometime.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 161 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by minator on 19-Jul-2004 15:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (Stefan Burström):
>So far, I havn't seen any credible source that would indicate the BOM for a pegasos.

The manufacturing price isn't generally given out by any company. I was told it once but don't remember it - but wouldn't give it out even if I did.

But the Pegasos has never needed to be subsidised, it's never been sold at a loss.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 162 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 15:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (MIKE):
> Of course their are races Fabio, please take a course in anthropology sometime.

Yeah, sure, why not one of Nuclear Physics too? :-D

Next one please...
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 163 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Jens Schönfeld on 19-Jul-2004 15:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 156 (Darrin):
I only advertised the Catweasel MK3 with Peg support for a few weeks. I took it out of the product description right after I released multidisk V3.63, and people barked at me because it was late. You haven't seen any ad from me in the past 15 months or more where I present the Catweasel MK3 as Peg compatible.

multidisk V3.63 was developed on a Peg1 without the April patch. Just recently, someone reported that it does not work on the Peg2. That's when I decided to drop support for MorphOS. This is common practise in the computer business. I have a very expensive Mustek scanner here, and drivers are not available for anything else then Win95. I would have loved to buy new drivers, but they're simply not available. Now I'm just keeping a spare computer to do scanning.

To be honest, I already regret having offered MorphOS drivers. I better leave everything up to the MorphOS developer pool, and not have to deal with persons who lack basic communication skills. It might cost me a few sales, but the gain is infinitely more valuable: I'm free of people demanding stuff from me.

You want drivers? Make your own. The Catweasel MK4 is not designed for MorphOS or the Pegasos. Any support is experimental.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 164 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 15:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (Stefan Burström):
> Seriously. Do you think that bPlan would give out their production costs to
> anyone outside the company? Talk about beeing in deep shit! If they did the
> following 2 cases would happen:
>
> 1. Their hardware is actually dirt cheap and I am wrong. But in that case
> everybody would know their margin and they would be in a bad negotiation
> position.
>
> 2. Their BOM is higher than the price of the board and they would be in an
> even worse position since then all of a sudden most of you would be forced to
> accept the truth and wouldn't be able to defend them like you do.

So, given 1 and 2, how can one prove to you that indeed the Pegasos is not being sold at a loss? You're basically saying that your theory cannot be disproved, hence it's valid. But that's completely illogical.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 165 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 15:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Jens Schönfeld):
If you don't plan to support a platform THEN DON'T ADVERTISE YOU WILL. It's simple. And no. Dropping support like this is not as common practice as you seem to think. Furthermore, Pegasos1 and Pegasos2 is basically the same machine. You use openpci.library to call the card so it makes no difference whatsoever. I suspect the errors with the driver on pegasos2 might be related to the firmware... Not that you helped me figure it out.

Anyway. Congratulations for scamming me (and alot of other people). You did a great job, I hope you are proud.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 166 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 19-Jul-2004 15:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 153 (Fabio Alemagna):
"Floppies don't last forever, you better back them up before's too late."

I've backed up many of them, but as I said the problem is the info on the labels.

Floppies seem to last well here, except for some that were rock-bottom bargain el cheapo 50% dud when bought. I'm wondering how long CDs will last. Rumour has it that black CDs are good, but I haven't found any at sensible prices yet.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 167 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Jul-2004 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (Adam Waldenberg):
Ok the support was for peg1. Sure it would have been nice of him to support you in finding out what went wrong with peg2, but ...
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 168 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 19-Jul-2004 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (Fabio Alemagna):
"Yeah, sure, why not one of Nuclear Physics too? :-D"

I'm sure you could, and would do well.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 169 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 15:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (priest):
The support was for morphos.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 170 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Ejdestig on 19-Jul-2004 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Jens Schönfeld):
If you feel you can't support MorphOS by yourself, why simply not open source the code you have for MorphOS? The money for you is in the hw, not in the drivers per se. It wouldn't burden you and more people can buy your hw. Btw, are there any specs one can use to write drivers?
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 171 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Don Cox):
> I'm sure you could, and would do well.

In another life, perhaps ;-) Seriously, life's too short already.

Besides, I was making another point... that antropology has has much to do with the biological races concept as nuclear physics has. Ok, perhaps a bit more ;-)
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 172 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Jul-2004 16:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (rez):
Vraiment la, tu deconnes, Don Cox n'est pas un rasiste, par contre, toi tu es incapable de comprendre se qui'l dit.

Le terme "sous especes" n'est pas un insulte, tu veut un example?

Les chats, la race Felines, cette race encombre beaucoup de sous especes, comme les chats au cheveux longs, cheveux courte.... le meme et valable pour les humains.

Utilise ta cervelle la prochaine fois

PS: Desolé pour les fautes grammatical, j'ai pas l'habitude d'ecrire en Francais
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 173 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Jul-2004 16:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 165 (Adam Waldenberg):
It's not a common thing? Funny, i've seen it happen big time when MacOSX came out, or when the USB equiped macs came out, old serial port devices vanished quite quickly.

It does happen in the real world, it's sometimes even unevitable, and perhaps the situation could have been handled better, but it doesn't change the outcome, if you feel scammed by this, well that's too bad.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 174 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 16:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 173 (Amon_Re):
Its not even closely the same thing... I allready explained it in my previous posts
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 175 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Jul-2004 16:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (Adam Waldenberg):
It looked simular enough, or atleast that's how interpreted your posts, if i'm wrong well sorry then, still he did release software for MorphOS, and as with most software the licence would state that there are no guarantees.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 176 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 16:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Amon_Re):
It's not similiar. And anyway, thats not the only issue. The worst thing about it is that he basically brushed me of as if I was a fly when I mailed him. Normally you provide proper support for a product if you say you will... My CWMK3 is after all, fairly new.

Anyway. It's not my problem if Jens wants to loose all credibility. It's up to him how he wants to handle the matter. But he wont get my money anymore, that's for sure.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 177 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 19-Jul-2004 16:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 130 (Stefan Burström):
Stefan Burström wrote:
[About the Pegasos 2]
> The USERS of a cheap, subsidised mainboard [...]

Well, of course you're entitled to speculate, but I find it quite arrogant and not very sympathetic to state for a fact something which you really have no idea about.

We all know that the Pegasos consumer sales do not wholly finance development and research. However, you go further than this, claiming that each board sold would actually be a loss.

I think you're missing quite a few factors which make cheap production possible in the Pegasos case. Let's compare it to the A1 for example, which is a very similar product technically and with regards to volumes.

- Considerably smaller board.
- No major licensing costs involved, in-house design.
- Very little organisational overhead, more or less two people (Carda + Knäbel) design *and* produce the units.
- Convenient production: as Carda previously (co-)owned the production equipment, they can operate it themselves and don't need to pay anyone externally to do this.
- Small sale- and resale organisation, bPlan ship directly to dealers.

When you compare this to the A1 which involves not only MAI but also a third party which designed the board, AND manufacturing facilities, AND several layers of sale and resale, it's no wonder that the Pegasos is much, much cheaper. Just count the number of people each board has to feed.

Also, of course you can't compare this to the cost of letting a third party company produce a board you designed. In such cases, you will of course pay an overprice as is the case for all consulting work - and more overprice the more qualified work, it should be noted.

Now as I said, of course you can speculate. I personally always found it funny that BAFs manage to turn even the low cost of the Pegasos into a disadvantage, but anyway.

I could also speculate about how I find it likely that A1 production will cease because MAI don't seem to be able to get a marketable product out the door. Both they and Eyetech are pointing to Linux as their avenue for sustainable revenue, but nowadays everyone agrees that there is no working Linux for the A1/Teron - and there seems to be little visible effort made to rectify this. MAIs dates for new northbridge products are repeatedly pushed forwards. No one seems to be able to name any existing MAI customers, and even Eyetech are no longer directly reselling the A1. Well, doesn't look good to me. But I wouldn't run around telling people that production and sales of the A1 is not commercially viable, as I really don't have any knowledge about the matter.



Also, regarding Jens' disagreement with BBRV: I don't think even Jens claims he did work for Genesi. What Jens did was to organise a fair in Aachen. Fortunately for him, Genesi agreed to pay a considerable part of the costs. The disagreement is, as far as I've understood it, over the cost of an additional hotel room rented by Jens. I've only heard BBRV's version in detail, I've asked Jens about it but he will not answer.

As BBRV don't seem to have a problem with admitting when they owe people money (as with me or Dale Rahn, and I believe also Christian Kemp as have been named publicly, and several others unnamed) I think this case is rather different. Due to the let's say, "less than constructive" attitude displayed by Jens, I'm not really inclined to buy his version, especially when he doesn't even want to give it in any detail.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 178 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 19-Jul-2004 16:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 106 (Stefan Burström):
That's a very nice excuse in order to make it look a little less stupid when buying overpriced hardware... Very nice! ;).
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 179 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 19-Jul-2004 16:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 160 (MIKE):
Forget it. Fabio would try to teach a chicken to lay eggs for the sake of winning an argument. I sometimes think his head would explode if he ever contenplated backing down.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 180 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Toner on 19-Jul-2004 16:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Johan Rönnblom):
> I'm not really inclined to buy his version, especially when he doesn't even want
> to give it in any detail.

Uh, how can you believe or not believe something which has not been said??
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 181 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 16:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Bill Hoggett):
> Forget it. Fabio would try to teach a chicken to lay eggs for the sake of
> winning an argument. I sometimes think his head would explode if he ever
> contenplated backing down.

Why should I back down if I know I am right? All you've been able to say is that "I am right because I say so", and then you dropped the discussion when you saw you had no hope to stand behind your argument.

Besides, it's not like I'm talking out of my harse, what I'm saying is just what modern biologists think. Get educated on the matter, or simply shut up if you don't want to learn.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 182 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 19-Jul-2004 17:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Amon_Re):
"Le terme "sous especes" n'est pas un insulte, tu veut un example?"

Ah, is that what's bothering him? He thought "subspecies" meant something like "sub-men".

I thought there must be a misunderstanding.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 183 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 19-Jul-2004 17:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 180 (Bill Toner):
Bill Toner wrote:
> Uh, how can you believe or not believe something which has not been
> said??

Excuse me? I think Jens has made some quite clear claims that BBRV owe
him money in this thread. What I'm saying is that he doesn't seem
willing to tell us the details. I think it's normal investigative
practise I'm following here. Jens makes a claim towards BBRV. So I ask
BBRV about it. They give me their story. So I ask Jens about BBRV's
story. Well, so far I'm not convinced he has a valid claim here.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 184 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 19-Jul-2004 17:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Fabio Alemagna):
"Why should I back down if I know I am right?"

Fabio, you just love a good argument, right or wrong. And why not?

Do you know the expression "argue the hind leg off a donkey"? I bet there are lots of 3-legged donkeys near where you live.

;-)
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 185 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Jens Schönfeld on 19-Jul-2004 17:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 183 (Johan Rönnblom):
You really want to stir up some mud here, right? Here's the shortest version I can give: BBRV ordered 36 square meters for my show. They showed up late, then all of a sudden complained that they don't have enough space. In the end they needed 54 square meters, and I had to rent about 130 square meters more because of that.

BB promised to take care of that. Well, he didn't. He's right telling that I got paid, and that I even have more money than the first invoice was written for. However, that invoice is only for 36 square meters, so they *do* owe me money. There are enough pictures that show the size of their booth, check the web.

Another problem I had was that they did not pay VAT. It would not have been a problem if they would have given me theit VAT ID number. They refused to, which would have gotten me down another 344,- EUR. I found out the number through other channels, luckily. Do you think that kind of practise is fair? How am I supposed to approach a man who's word is worth nothing? I better not deal with him at all. I'm fine with the last words I spoke with him about a year ago: "There will be no next time" (this was after I said "next time, we'll do everything written", which obviously made him feel uncomfortable). There are quite a few whitnesses to that talk, it was at Amiwest last year.

Now is this muddy enough for you? Do you think this improves your feeling about BBRV? It's still my issue against theirs. It's just that I'm not the only one who they treated this way. Luckily, they leave me alone, and I suppose they will do so for the rest of my life. I some information and recorded phone calls that reveal some of the true personality of BB. I see this as kind of my insurance.

Jens Schönfeld
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 186 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 19-Jul-2004 17:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Fabio Alemagna):
" Why should I back down if I know I am right? All you've been able to say is that "I am right because I say so", and then you dropped the discussion when you saw you had no hope to stand behind your argument."
Fabio, unlike you I do not need to go to online dictionaries to understand the coomon usage of terms in the English language.

You backed the description of Jens as a racist, and used a pile of bullshit to "prove" your point. You say this has no insulting implications. Well, I challenge you to come to England and walk up to the first bug bloke you can find and call him a racist. Will you accept?

Surely this will not cause a problem if your "definition" is right? Of course, if you're wrong there's a very good chance you'll end up chewing a knuckle sandwich.

You say you proved your point, but you did not. Racism is a form of bigotry, for instance, but not all bigotry is racist. Then you argue there is no such thing as a race, so calling someone racist does not have racial implications. Seems like twisted logic to me, which is what I've come to expect from your arguments.

As for why I stopped arguing? Well, there no point in arguing with a stone. You walk around it and let it be. Frankly, debating anything with you is like trying to have an intelligent conversation with Steve Giovenella: a futile exercise.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 187 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 19-Jul-2004 17:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 162 (Fabio Alemagna):
Ah yes, that would be me again I guess.. amazing how this thread went on. :)

You who are so wice in the ways of science... are there dog races?

Can you with distinguish one dog race from another genetically? Does it even make sense to talk about dog races from a biological point of view? Just like humans they come in all shapes and colours depening on their heritage, climate, culture and social statue. And there are no strikt lines between the dog races. As goes for about any other mammal I can think of.

In my point of view this is it:

A spieces - a population within the biosphere that is capable of interbreeding and getting fertile offspring.

A race - a population within a spieces that share a set of heritaged physiological characteristics that makes them distinguishable from other populations within the spieces.

Both "spieces" and "race" are non-absolute generalisations. Organic life, despite the beliefs of some, _does_ evolve. Appearances of populations change, physiological characteristics of populations change, for all kinds of reasons. Over time a group of a population that has been genetically isolated long enough is even likely to evolve into a new spieces. Nature is a funny thing, and you will always find examples that dont fit into the above terms (or any other categorizing method you choose). However, as generalisations, they are usable, for good as well as bad, even on humans.

Sub spiece? Not sure, sounds like a term one could use when discussing the evolution of spieces. For example one could argue that all the big apes, humans included, are all sub spieces of some ancient long gone proto-ape.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 188 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 18:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 184 (Don Cox):
> Fabio, you just love a good argument, right or wrong. And why not?

The fact I love discussion over philosophical/logical/ethical/whateverical thing is out of doubt, however when people are able to show, with proper and logic arguments, that I am wrong, I have no problems in admitting it.

Here, though, what we have are claims that I deem bogus, I explain why I think they are so, I bring facts that are meant to back my argument up, but on the opposite side no such thing is done. So why should I back up? I mean, I see not even a remotely good reason to do so. I can simply concede that we all have different opinions and that I stand by my opinion, but if I'm questioned something, my habit is to give answers.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 189 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 19-Jul-2004 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
And I have been spelling species wrongly on purpose, mind you :)
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 190 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Gregg on 19-Jul-2004 18:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Bill Hoggett):
Well, I challenge you to come to England and walk up to the first bug bloke you can find and call him a racist.

Are you implying all English males react violently to insults? You're a bigot, you are.

Gregg
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 191 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 19-Jul-2004 18:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 185 (Jens Schönfeld):
Jens Schönfeld wrote:
> You really want to stir up some mud here, right?

Huh? You brought this issue up with comment 81, not me. If you want to
bring this conflict up, I think you have to accept that people ask
questions.

Anyway, now you've given your version in satisfactory detail, so I
guess the ball is back to BBRV to explain why they see things
differently. Thanks for that.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 192 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Jul-2004 18:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 177 (Johan Rönnblom):
>We all know that the Pegasos consumer sales do not wholly finance development and research.

Right. But does it cover at least the development and research of the HW?

>However, you go further than this, claiming that each board sold would actually be a loss.

Just MHO: If it does not cover R&D costs (ever), I think it is sold for a loss...

>I think you're missing quite a few factors which make cheap production possible in the Pegasos case. Let's compare it to the A1 for example, which is a very similar product technically and with regards to volumes.
>- Considerably smaller board.
>- No major licensing costs involved,

So you ignore all the SW.

How about MOS R&D costs? Pegasos should cover that as well as it's the only product sold with MOS....?

>in-house design.

I thought you were going to ignore that?
(surely the development must have cost a few hundred thousand euros ... unless people living normally ... Germany is not a cheap country to live at)

>- Very little organisational overhead, more or less two people (Carda + Knäbel) design *and* produce the units.

That is a huge saving. I agree.

>- Convenient production: as Carda previously (co-)owned the production equipment, they can operate it themselves and don't need to pay anyone externally to do this.

Hmmm... They can use the production equipments for free????
Were those equipments free for DCE???

What happens when new ones are needed? Another convenient bancrupt?????

>- Small sale- and resale organisation, bPlan ship directly to dealers.

Like A1 from Eyetech onwards.

How about marketing costs? Who paid those rents for the floor place in happenings? Who paid for all shipping & travelling?

>When you compare this to the A1 which involves not only MAI

Similar to Marvell.

>but also a third party which designed the board,

Similar to Garda. (but where does the Teron/A1 designer live?)

> AND manufacturing facilities,

Taiwan against Germany...
The production @ Taiwan should be far cheaper if the German manufacturers are living to german standards, not Taiwanese.

>AND several layers of sale and resale,

Sure there are more people involved in the A1 business. And every layer adds some handling cost. But also there is part of the SW AND HW R&D being paid of every board sold.


But the board is most likely is sold to more users than just AmigaOS users. (some MAI customers)

> it's no wonder that the Pegasos is much, much cheaper.
>Just count the number of people each board has to feed.

Arg. Now, did you count MOS developers? How about the SW bundled with MOS?
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 193 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 186 (Bill Hoggett):
> Fabio, unlike you I do not need to go to online dictionaries to understand the
> coomon usage of terms in the English language.

Bill, in case you didn't notice, the dictionary reference was for your own use, to show you how things are for real. Unlike you, I do not need (not always, at least) to use dictionaries, be them online or offline (why did you specify "online", did you think that would sound bad? Fool you), to know that some words have more meanings than the ones you attribute to them.

I was simply trying to prove my argument, if not even a dictionary reference is supposed to prove anything for you, what else should? You see, your argument is lost already, you lost it as soon as you refused to accept undisputable facts as such.

> You backed the description of Jens as a racist,

You should be ashamed of telling such lies. I really pitty you for claiming false things about me. Either that, or you're completely unable to read your own native language. I've already suggested you to read the message that originated this subthread, obviously you havent.

> and used a pile of bullshit to "prove" your point.

Ahah, riiiight, bullshit you say. :-) Let me understand, Bill, in what position are you to say that dictionary references, modern biology claims and words of professors of American universities are "bullshit"? Who ever do you believe you are?

> You say this has no insulting implications.

Uh? Where and when did I say "racist" has no insulting implications?! Another lie, or simply unability to read?

> You say you proved your point, but you did not. Racism is a form of bigotry,
> for instance, but not all bigotry is racist.

I've already responded to this claim, I'm tired of repeating myself over and over. Go read what I wrote and counterargument that.

> Then you argue there is no such thing as a race,

In the biological sense, when applied to humans, and also when applied to many anymals. I've never claimed there's no such a thing as a "race" per se (except in the first message of mine on the subject, but then I was referring to the meaning of "race" what Kolbjørn Barmen was using, which is the biological one), I've rather claimed that there are perceived races, which are more of a social construct than anything else. I've also told a bit of history about of the separation in races of humans really began, and showed how flawed such a separation it is.

On the other hand, what have you done to prove your point? Nothing, absolutely nothing. You've not even counterargumented the argument I brought. Obviously you were unable to.

> so calling someone racist does not have racial implications. Seems like
> twisted logic to me, which is what I've come to expect from your arguments.

Eeeh, again, I never claimed that, you simply constructed a pretty flawed picture of my words in your head and then went on believing that I really said that. Pay more attention to what you read, it may help.

> As for why I stopped arguing? Well, there no point in arguing with a stone.

Yeeeah, right, sure :-) Come on Bill, stop it already... I already imagine your face when you saw that an Ametican professor of an American university says exactly what I say about races. You must have tought something along the lines of "Oh crap, now how do I justify that I attacked him on the basis of him being a non native English speaker?", right Bill? As if "race" didn't have the same meaning everywhere anyway :-)

> You walk around it and let it be. Frankly, debating anything with you is like
> trying to have an intelligent conversation with Steve Giovenella: a futile
> exercise.

Yes Bill, whatever Bill. Fact remains, you lost your argument, unless you come up with a pretty good explanations for the flaws I pointed out in your reasoning, like the non-native English speaker one. Or like the fact that race simply identifies the skin colour of a population (which is, by the way, in contrast even with what Kolbjørn said - why don't you take it up with him too?).

So Bill? ;-)
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 194 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Jul-2004 18:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (priest):
+ btw. some A1 dealers only add handling costs and local TAX after Eyetech (shipping costs etc)...
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 195 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Stefan Burström on 19-Jul-2004 18:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 164 (Fabio Alemagna):
>So, given 1 and 2, how can one prove to you that indeed the Pegasos is not being sold at a loss? You're basically saying that your theory cannot be disproved, hence it's valid. But that's completely illogical.

No you completely missed the point (or deliberately which you seem to do more than too often with my posts)
Anyway, what I wanted to say that asking bPlan for the BOM will get you nowhere because either way, bPlan would loose by giving out the actual cost.
I gave a few starting points how to figure out the BOM of the board but obviously the guy didn't answer because he couldn't.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 196 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 18:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
> You who are so wice in the ways of science... are there dog races?

In the usual biological meaning of "race", most likely, yes.

> Can you with distinguish one dog race from another genetically?

Yes, you can.

> Does it even make sense to talk about dog races from a biological point of
> view?

Yes, because there are clear genetic differences, albeit minimal, between dogs belonging to different races.

> Just like humans they come in all shapes and colours depening on their
> heritage, climate, culture and social statue.

Not really. All dogs belonging to the same race have the same sizes (variations are very minimal), same hair pattern[1], same eyes colour[1], even the same genetic illnesses (if any). This is because dog's races are an human invention, it's humans who selected dogs into different races, to create dogs with certain characteristics that find their ground in dogs' genoma.

This cannot be done for humans, unless you want to admit that there are hundred if not thousand of different races within the human species. Heck, Italians' characteristics even differ from region to region!

> And there are no strikt lines between the dog races. As goes for about any
> other mammal I can think of.

Of course there is.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 197 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 19:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 195 (Stefan Burström):
> No you completely missed the point (or deliberately which you seem to do more
> than too often with my posts)

I have not, perhaps you missed my point.

> Anyway, what I wanted to say that asking bPlan for the BOM will get you nowhere
> because either way, bPlan would loose by giving out the actual cost.

Yes, I know that, that's why I said what I said: the only one who really knows what are the costs involved is bPlan, yet you already know that they will never tell you the real costs (or so you assume). Basically, the only real way to prove your theory is wrong, cannot be used.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 198 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Toner on 19-Jul-2004 19:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (Fabio Alemagna):
> Yes, but that's the exact point that modern biology deems fallacious. The
> dictionary reports it because that's what "race" also means.

In what context of the term "race" was the guy that defined the term "racist" thinking when he invented his new word? Have these other items in the current definition of "race" been added since the term "racist" was defined, and thus in your view may have changed the intended meaning of "racist"?

In practical use, anyone on the street you talk to will consider "race" in context of "racist" as being the same kind of "race" definition used on surveys, applications, personal ads, etc. which ask if you are "white" or "caucasian", "african American" (BTW, what "PC" term is used here outside of USA??), "asian", "native american", etc. While the technical definition of race includes more than that, this is what 99.9% of the english speaking population thinks it means. Though I do have to admit I have heard the term "racist" used to describe people who don't like Jewish worshippers. I always thought that was odd until I read up on the current definitions today, which include things other than just skin color or shape of the eyes kinds of things. I guess I learned something new, but that doesn't change the fact that now, 99.9% - 1 individual still thinks it's about caucasion/african-american/asian/etc categorization.

A rediculous discussion, especially as being found under the news topic at hand. But while the dictionary might be on Fabio's side, almost everyone in the real world will say the term "racist" as originally used in this thread is out of bounds, but that "discrimination" might have fit that particular post.

Now, I don't agree that discrimination really fits into this topic anyway. I'm working on drivers for a particular platform, does that make me evil because I'm not porting this same driver to AROS, Amithlon-native, or AmigaOS 2.x as examples? Am I discriminating against these other Amiga community members that my driver isn't intended to use by that guy still using a stock A500 with 1.3? Oh, woe is him whom I have ignored and refused support for my "Amiga" product... It's a business decision that some people won't like, and who will either learn to live with it or who won't buy a catweasle. But trying to equate Catweasle support for Pegasos/Morhpos with the "racist" acts like burning crosses on the lawns of african americans in USA's not too long ago history, or how Hitler and friends treated Jewish people way back when is quite a crazy thing don't you think? This subthread is absolutely insane, and I can't believe I even took part in it. Oh well, give me time and senility will kick in to make that go away.... ... ... Yep, there she goes... ;)
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 199 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 19-Jul-2004 19:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 196 (Fabio Alemagna):
Oops, forgot the note:

[1] Of course there are variations, but they are very minimal and most often are related to the "shape" of the pattern (if you get what I mean), rather than to the pattern itself.
Announcement: Technical data of the new Catweasel MK4 : Comment 200 of 469ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 19-Jul-2004 19:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Gregg):
>Are you implying all English males react violently to insults? You're a bigot, you are.

>Gregg

ROTFL. Nice one, but for christ's sake don't make remarks like that on ANN as not everyone will spot the joke and we'll end up with 200 comments arguing overy the existance or non-existance of "bigotry". Arrrggghhh!!!
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