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[Rant] Where is MorphOS for CSPPC?ANN.lu
Posted on 26-Jul-2004 11:33 GMT by Kolbjørn Barmen (Edited on 2004-07-26 13:40:05 GMT by Christian Kemp)78 comments
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Whatever happened to the promised support for PowerUp? While people are discussing the meaning of "promise" and "support" I want to ask what the final outcome of MorphOS for PowerUP machines is. web archive (20030602171643) of www.morphos.net/support.php3. Was it ever promised? Not? Versions? Support? When? The mention of CSPPC and BlizzPPC was there for more than 3 years before it vanished when morphos.de/morphos.net became ..uhm.. genesized. :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 1 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate (218.214.200.58) on 26-Jul-2004 09:45 GMT
developers seem to have it already, i guess sif u ask nicely and show how u can help mos app devel u might havew a chance of getting mos1.4 on csppc.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 2 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by priest (192.100.124.218) on 26-Jul-2004 09:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (cheesegrate):
Surely you know that he meant the end user version.

In 1.5 years perhaps...
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 3 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.62.32) on 26-Jul-2004 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (cheesegrate):
You think I havent tried already? :) I have spent almost 4 years on #MorphOS being nice and helpfull and all. The only thing I havent bothered is buying a Pegasos (I dont fancy BBRV, I already have a "supported" machine, the Pegasos does not have the features I want)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 4 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Miky060 (151.42.188.188) on 26-Jul-2004 10:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
I asked them to release MorphOS for PowerUP a lot of times too. Personally I really think it would be a good move, also because I'm sure this would bring a lot of new Pegasos buyers, (if you try MorphOS you wanna buy a Peg!) but they do not want to release it anymore.
This probably because they have not the possibility to give a support to Amiga Classic users with thousands of diffenrent hardware configurations..

The strange thing is that they already told this a lot of times, so I do not understand why you are still surprised by the fact MOS x PowerUP is not out.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 5 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 10:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Miky060):
>This probably because they have not the possibility to give a support to Amiga Classic users with thousands of diffenrent hardware configurations..

But why should they be even entitled to any kind of support, for some thing which they got for free? If it works, it works, if not.. then not.
The goold old car-analogy suits here: If I give you a car for free, don't expect it to be in 100% condition ;)

Releasing MOS1.4 for BlizzardPPC+BVision or Cyberstorm/CVision compo would cater an ok amount of people I think... at least so, that they could try and see if they like it or not.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 6 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (194.86.94.42) on 26-Jul-2004 11:42 GMT
It will be released in year 2150
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 7 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.62.32) on 26-Jul-2004 12:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Miky060):
> The strange thing is that they already told this a lot of times, so I do not understand why you are still surprised by the fact MOS x PowerUP is not out.

Surpriced? Hardly. It is still a lack of promised support though.
Or perhaps not? :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 8 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 12:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
In the year 2525...
If man is still alive...

:P
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 9 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa (65.248.166.34) on 26-Jul-2004 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (hooligan/dcs):
> Releasing MOS1.4 for BlizzardPPC+BVision or Cyberstorm/CVision compo would cater
> an ok amount of people I think... at least so, that they could try and see if
> they like it or not.

I'd pay for MOS1.4 on my CS-PPC system. Somehow i get the impression it isn't going to happen:-(
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 10 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (129.187.202.5) on 26-Jul-2004 14:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (redrumloa):
> Somehow i get the impression it isn't going to happen:-(

Don't be so quick... ;-)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 11 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (213.226.84.155) on 26-Jul-2004 14:50 GMT
Doing all the work of creating a END-USER version of the OS for a dead (and a dead-end) system with ancient specs INSTEAD OF developing the OS further on the new platform to get a new release finnished as soon as possible, is only madness IMHO. Their resources is limited and you have to choose - either develop the OS to be a mature, sellable OS as fast as possible (the next OS release seems to be a MAJOR leap if you read the info from the MorphOS developers on forums), OR delay that in favour of supporting a few half-dead relics from the past. I am sorry for the harsh words, but I sure hope they don't waste their time on doing that. Anyone interested in running MorphOS could buy a Pegasos (quite affordable and well worth it) and enjoy it fully, the way its meant to be.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 12 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by priest (192.100.124.218) on 26-Jul-2004 15:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
"Anyone interested in running MorphOS could buy a Pegasos"

I think that is the core reason. MOS needs to sell the HW of the same company.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 13 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 15:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
I have no intention in buying a computer just to *test* the OS, I personally have no need for the horsepower of the G3 or G4 for running old amiga apps. I brought this up because it was something that was promised and supposed to happen for at least 3 years before it slowly and descrete was put on ice.. maybe. I cant remember to have seen any official "announcement" from the MorphOS developers about it either.

As for dead ends, the current Pegasos are just as much a dead end as the old amigas, in terms of feaures and support. It isn't quite what I want from a "new and modern" system (obsolete slow USB, obsolete PS/2 inteface, soon obsolete IDE controller, mediocre sound, unsupported firewire, unsopported floppy controller, and not enough PCI slots to compensate for all the mentioned flaws)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 14 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Tronman (69.29.206.227) on 26-Jul-2004 15:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
Uhh, the core reason is as the message above stated-they can either a)
support an ancient, dead end platform with a few users who are mostly
p1r4t3s anyway, or they can b) support their new, modern hardware.
As far as features go, AGP (at any speed), firewire, modern onboard
sound, real un-crippled PCI slots, USB onboard and (hopefully!) a
CatweaselMKIV for all you Amiga joystick diehards out there, beats the
pants off an ancient, h4xx0red to the maxx A1200 that runs hot and
hasn't got proper and fast DMA to its PCI slots everytime.

Yeah, I like to watch AGA demos too, but I can get a 4000 on eBay for
that, and buy a new Pegasos setup, probably for less money than I
could to buy the A4000, the CSPPC, the RAM (now somewhat hard to find
and expensive), the Cvision (hot and unreliable), the PCI expander
card and so on.

I for one would much rather see them put the $$$ towards a port of
Firefox or Galleon or something (you know, a browser that won't
explode when trying to hit www.homestarrunner.com..)

Cripes guys, let it go! Just go out, spend less money on a modern
hardware with a warranty, enjoy the speed and be happy :-))
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 15 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate (218.214.200.58) on 26-Jul-2004 15:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
heh let's not forget that's where mos originated, the classic amiga
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 16 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
And the same people were earlier raving on about how bad it is to tie software to hardware, and how much better it was to have the freedom to choose what hardware to run on - how ironic :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 17 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 15:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
>obsolete PS/2 inteface

Since when PS/2 went obsolete? Im ALWAYS behind times... :(((((((((((((((((
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 18 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 15:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Tronman):
> Uhh, the core reason is as the message above stated-they can either a)
> support an ancient, dead end platform with a few users who are mostly
> p1r4t3s anyway, or they can b) support their new, modern hardware.

According to their website, their intention was to do both, untill about a year ago.. perhaps, I really dont know, as everytime I ask noone is willing to say either way.

> As far as features go, AGP (at any speed), firewire, modern onboard
> sound, real un-crippled PCI slots, USB onboard and (hopefully!) a
> CatweaselMKIV for all you Amiga joystick diehards out there, beats the
> pants off an ancient, h4xx0red to the maxx A1200 that runs hot and
> hasn't got proper and fast DMA to its PCI slots everytime.

So what? I habe no needs to have my A1200's pants beaten off (it has been running linux for the last 7 years anyhow) and the CSPPC in my A3000 isnt exactly running warm, nor does it need fast DMA for the SCSI controller and the only PCI slot avaible is for the CVPPC.

> Yeah, I like to watch AGA demos too, but I can get a 4000 on eBay for
> that, and buy a new Pegasos setup, probably for less money than I
> could to buy the A4000, the CSPPC, the RAM (now somewhat hard to find
> and expensive), the Cvision (hot and unreliable), the PCI expander
> card and so on.

Well, I already have a handfull of machines to watch those AGA demos on, that is not the issue here.

> I for one would much rather see them put the $$$ towards a port of
> Firefox or Galleon or something (you know, a browser that won't
> explode when trying to hit www.homestarrunner.com..)

And I have plenty of machines to run Firefox (ew) or Galleon (uh-oh) on - if I for some reason would want that.

> Cripes guys, let it go! Just go out, spend less money on a modern
> hardware with a warranty, enjoy the speed and be happy :-))

Right, so where can I get modern hardware to run MorphOS on? PearPC perhaps? :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 19 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 15:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (hooligan/dcs):
USB and bluetooth, dude.. USB and bluetooth, and it happened quite a while ago. I find it rather comical that a machine that ships with an USB interface only really suitable for HID also comes with PS/2 interfaces :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 20 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 15:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
"Doing all the work of creating a END-USER version of the OS for a dead (and a dead-end) system with ancient specs INSTEAD OF developing the OS further on the new platform to get a new release finnished as soon as possible, is only madness IMHO."

Actually, considering that MOS has a HAL, the only thing that would need being kept up to date would be that hal, the rest of the system should be identical to the Pegasos version.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 21 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 16:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
Care to explain me why, in the name of our lord, mr.god, I should plug my mouse and keyboard to usb-port instead of ps/2?
You don't think the price of mobo will go down if you lose PS/2 ports, do you?
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 22 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Eva (80.181.38.161) on 26-Jul-2004 16:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Amon_Re):
Posted by Amon_Re (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 14:53:35
In Reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
In the year 2525...
If man is still alive...
______
Well ... where is 2001 AOs4?
Ah it was postponed for 2500 ... good.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 23 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 16:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (hooligan/dcs):
Now I think you have me confused with someone else, my name is not god and who is this lord? Anwyays, the price? No, I doubt it, perhaps if you also got rid of the quite useless parallel port as well, and perhaps the RS232 (allthough the latter still has its uses). But what do you put in those slow USB ports? It is uncomfortably slow for scanners, printers, storage, cams.. the obvious usage is HID devices like keyboard and mouse.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 24 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by priest (192.100.124.218) on 26-Jul-2004 16:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Tronman):
They have "developer release" ready since years for classic PPC Amigas. They could easily get some money by selling MOS to those users (even when not promising any further support). Also they have promised it for free, several times.

Still they do not do it.

I think they are not stupid.

So ...
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 25 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by priest (192.100.124.218) on 26-Jul-2004 16:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
while forgetting their own roots.

But ... there is no reason for gleeful pleasure (and AOS4 for CSPPC is not yet out either).

It would have been nice to be able to compare MOS and AOS on some common HW platform someday, though.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 26 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa (65.10.201.97) on 26-Jul-2004 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Tronman):
> Cripes guys, let it go! Just go out, spend less money on a modern
> hardware with a warranty, enjoy the speed and be happy :-))

Who are you talking to? Classic users? Well only speking for myself I already own a Pegasos, but that does not mean I want to throw my A4000 on the trash heap.

I absolutely hate this logic, burn the classic beacause a newer option is faster(at leasttheoretically). This logic taken to it's logical end would bring the user to a Windows based PC.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 27 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Hodges (82.135.6.173) on 26-Jul-2004 17:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
> But what do you put in those slow USB ports? It is uncomfortably slow for
> scanners,

Did you try this? Most scanners have USB1.1 interfaces anyway.

> printers,

1MB/sec is enough for printing -- you still need a machine fast enough to calculate the printing data at that speed *and* the printer bringing this data to the paper at at least that rate.

> storage, cams

Yes, that is a problem. But why not fitting in a USB2.0 card for that purpose?

> the obvious usage is HID devices like keyboard and mouse.

Then you could stick with PS/2. The fact, that there are a lot more devices at low or medium bandwidth, make the USB1.1 onboard ports of the Pegasos 1/2 not obsolete. Still, I agree that Peg3 has to have USB2.0.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 28 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 17:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
>Anyways, the price? No, I doubt it, perhaps if you also got rid of the quite useless parallel port as well, and perhaps the RS232 (allthough the latter still has its uses). But what do you put in those slow USB ports? It is uncomfortably slow for scanners, printers, storage, cams.. the obvious usage is HID devices like keyboard and mouse.

Ok.. let me get this straight. Eventhough mouse and keyboard works 100% with PS/2, and removing the port would not bring any advantage, I'd *still* be better to plug my mouse and keyboard into USB ports, which doesnt bring any advantage either (well, quite the opposite really, as I'd lose two usb-ports.)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 29 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 17:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Amon_Re):
"Actually, considering that MOS has a HAL, the only thing that would need being kept up to date would be that hal, the rest of the system should be identical to the Pegasos version."

That's not exact. You need up to date drivers corresponding to the hardware you have in your classic Amiga.
You may start Quark + Abox but then if you have drivers for your graphic card, network card, ....).
You can always try to emulate some but they may access directly to the classic hardware.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 30 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom (193.11.251.131) on 26-Jul-2004 17:53 GMT
Well I think it's pretty obvious why it's not released, people like
Kolla would instantly whine to death because some weird device which
theoretically could be fitted to their Amiga hardware (but which, of
course, they have no intent to actually fit..) isn't properly
supported.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 31 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by itix (130.234.189.82) on 26-Jul-2004 18:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Christophe Decanini):
"You may start Quark + Abox but then if you have drivers for your graphic card, network card, ....).You can always try to emulate some but they may access directly to the classic hardware." Not exactly. Direct custom chip access is permitted on old Amigas. It is just if those old drivers behave well and are fast enough in emulation... Technically from MorphOS side it is just matter of compiling kernel roms with amigappc flags on... Then test it with betatesters, build nice distribution archive and give it away...
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 32 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 18:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Johan Rönnblom):
Why would I suddenly wish to fit more obscure hardware to my CSPPC amiga? In recent times I have rather removed obscure hardware than added them. If you think CSPPC with CVPPC, a SCSI disk and a A2065 is too obscure, then ok. :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 33 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 18:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (itix):
And what happens if the CVPPC driver is not working with the actual CyberGfx ?
What happens if your 68k driver bangs into the CIA to get some timing ?
What happens if your 68k driver is playing with the MMU ?

It looks to me that it is far more complicated than some people may think.
Don't get me wrong, I would really like to run MorphOS 1.4 and above on my classic but I understand priorities.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 34 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Andreas Wolf (80.185.27.91) on 26-Jul-2004 20:06 GMT
There's still http://www.morphos.org
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 35 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 20:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Andreas Wolf):
Oh! I thought I had tried all the alternatives and ended up at some pegasosppc.com site. :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 36 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 26-Jul-2004 20:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Christophe Decanini):
If it just happens that nothing works, then fine, nothing happens and we can all conclude that MOS on powerup simply wont be, they can announce the withdrawel of MorphOS for PowerUp and move on.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 37 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by itix (130.234.189.82) on 26-Jul-2004 20:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Christophe Decanini):
"And what happens if the CVPPC driver is not working with the actual CyberGfx ?" It works because there is PPC native CVPPC driver already. Some other gfx cards maybe don't :) AGA doesn't work for sure because it lacks hi/truecolor modes... "What happens if your 68k driver bangs into the CIA to get some timing ?" It is not problem. Even some PPC native drivers for MorphOS BPPC/CSPPC bang HW directly. Playsid.library worked perfectly on my BPPC and it needs CIA timer + Paula. But I never got my CDRW working in my MorphOS BPPC setup. "What happens if your 68k driver is playing with the MMU ?" Anything like this wont work. Or drivers that do something stupid (and there are many). "Don't get me wrong, I would really like to run MorphOS 1.4 and above on my classic but I understand priorities." I agree. And even if it is released "unsupported" there is always someone bombing developers with amigappc questions...
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 38 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (213.226.84.155) on 26-Jul-2004 21:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (priest):
@ priest

> I think that is the core reason. MOS needs to sell the HW of the same
> company.

I hope that you are not suggesting that the Pegasos sales so far in the lower thousands has financed the development of MorphOS? Or that the few sales (2000 top?) of Pegasos motherboards that MorphOS itself has generated has done anyone fat and wealthy? Greed is not the reason to why you haven't seen MorphOS for Amiga yet, rather the opposite, a need of narrow prioritys due to limited resources. They can't do it all at once and they can't afford the luxery of spending time to port it to a platform that died ten years ago. They simply have to focus on the things that might advance the platform.

@ Amon_Re

> Actually, considering that MOS has a HAL, the only thing that would need
> being kept up to date would be that hal, the rest of the system should be
> identical to the Pegasos version.

And it will probably be a nightmare to make it support all thinkable hardware gizmos and various exotic hardware patches that Amiga users has added to their systems during the last 10-15 years. People will expect to be able to use their Amigas the way they always have, but with MorphOS. And not only that - people will also expect their old piles of hardly breathing hardware to run just as stable as a Pegasos when they are using MorphOS, and they probably expect everything to be just as fast. A nightmare! And for what? How many users are there left that uses their REAL Amigas at a serious level (not only for retro gaming and viewing old demos and such)? A hundred across the globe? More? I would say probably less! Of those people, how many would consider buying a copy of MorphOS? Not very many. Perhaps a few additional would consider trying it "for free" if you know what I mean. So would it really be worth it to postpone the development that will make the OS move forward, go through the nightmare of supporting the tangle of possible old Amiga configurations just to satisfy a few old nerds that refuses to take the step into the current century? -Hell NO!
;-)


@ Kolbjørn Barmen

> I have no intention in buying a computer just to *test* the OS

Then borrow one, go to a friend that has one, rent one, or visit a show that is showing one.

> I personally have no need for the horsepower of the G3 or G4 for running old
> amiga apps.

-You'll know, when youv'e been tangoed!

> I brought this up because it was something that was promised and supposed to
> happen for at least 3 years before it slowly and descrete was put on ice..

I can't tell whether the MorphOS team still have the ambitions of supporting old Amigas, if the idea has been dropped, or if it's only put on ice. What I DO know is that they are working hard to make the platform take a quantum leap, and I quote: "We work on a major OS release update and the name 1.5 is probably not appropriate enough to describe the differences". So "promised" or not, I think they are doing the right thing and I think that most of us would rather see a MorphOS [drum drum] 2.0(?) for our Pegasos boxes ASAP than some 1.4 for old Amigas. So no, I don't agree with your whining, and actually, I don't think that a lot of people do.

> I cant remember to have seen any official "announcement" from the MorphOS
> developers about it either.

I can't remember seeing many official announcements AT ALL from the "Official MorphOS Team" other than the ones some days ago (where the quote above was taken from). You may think whatever you want about the "Official MorphOS Team", but one thing can we all agree to - they do not announce a lot!
:-P

> As for dead ends, the current Pegasos are just as much a dead end as the old
> amigas, in terms of feaures and support.

Not at all, not BY FAR! I frankly fail to see how you could possibly come to such a conclusion?!?

> It isn't quite what I want from a "new and modern" system

But the old Amigas is?

> (obsolete slow USB,

USB1.1 is by far the most widely used USB standard in the world, and it will remain that way for many years to come. I dare to say that not many people (or hardware products) NEED USB2.0. Sure some of the faster and more expensive memory card readers is nicer to use over a 2.0 bus (although most card readers (even many of the 2.0 ones) are much to slow to take real advantage of it anyway). My Epson Stylus Photo R300 is NOT faster on a USB2.0 bus when printing photos compared to USB1.1, my scanner is NOT faster on a USB2.0 bus compared to USB1.1. The REAL bottlenecks are to be found elsewhere. And I tell you this - if I want USB 2.0 then I simply buy a USB2.0 card for a few euros. As simple as that! But I have yet to have any need for one, so I guess I will be buying some DVD-R discs instead ...

> obsolete PS/2 inteface,

Obsolete?! My god, how could you possibly think that PS/2 is evil? PS/2 works everywhere, even where USB doesn't work. If you don't like it, then don't use it, but what harm does it do just by being there? How could this be a reason not to buy a computer?

> soon obsolete IDE controller,

The Pegasos IDE controller will not be obsolete any day soon (probably never). You will hardly notice any difference at all between ATA100, ATA133 and SATA150 in real life usage, this is especially true with those cheaper HDD's with limited cache. The HDD's are the real bottlenecks, not the controller, and if anything here is obsolete by now it's the entire system with Hard Disc Drives. What good is a faster disc controller if the disc mechanism itself can't feed it with data even at ATA100 speed? And the sad part is that HDD's has come to the end of the road when it comes to performance. There are HDD's (most often SCSI and not IDE anyway) available at 10.000 or 15.000 RPM's, but they are both hard and expensive to make, and at the bottom line even those HDD's are really slow, and at that rotating speed they get so hot (and loud) that they are not usable in a regular desktop machine (not to mention the price). So trust me, for any other areas than "marketing by numbers", the ATA100 controller is EXCELLENT. I miss a striped RAID however (but that goes for me personally, this is nothing requested by most common users, and there are good RAID cards available) and I also miss the thin cables of SATA (the thin cables are probably the best part of that standard, the main point of it all), but the round regular IDE cables are almost just as good.

> mediocre sound,

So you are a musician, huh? Yeah I know, the Pegasos on board sound can not compete with the REAL sound hardware (but the Pegasos can't compete with the Wintel on the musician market anyway, much because of the software situation).

Or do you want to use it as a "Media Station" in your living room? Then simply connect an optical fiber from your Pegasos S/PDIF optical digital audio connector to your Home Theatre, and off you go!

The Pegasos on board sound is (like on board sound most often are) absolutely fine for what it's intended to -- "regular PC use" with "PC speakers" and such, which makes the user able to take part of audio in games, on the Internet, in programs etc. This is very suitable for most COMMON users, and for that purpose it works JUST FINE and it's not worse off than any other sound chips of similar ambitions (the chip in the Pegasos is in fact a quite common chip for such areas of usage). However, that doesn't stop many of us from connecting the Pegasos to the stereo (some has posted that they can spot some metallic character of the sound at full volume level (I can't), but that is said to go away if you lower the volume just slightly in the software Pegasos mixer and rise it on the stereo instead) and listening to streaming sound with ANR! :-) But then again, those mp3 streams are often kind of bottle necks in themself, and to the serious HIFI fanatic, they will limit how good music sounds even on a HIFI card. BTW, any sound card can of course be connected, and then it's just a matter of drivers for your particular OS of choice. There are good cards that works fine with both Linux and MorphOS!

> unsupported firewire,

This is not a hardware thing; the Firewire is there and it's working just fine, thank you! MorphOS support for this is most certainly on its way, and it will be here quicker if the MorphOS developers attention is not diverted to porting the OS to Amiga!
:-P

> unsopported floppy controller,

Similar as above - this is not a hardware thing. No Amiga port of the OS = at least chances of MorphOS getting support for this faster! But floppies are "deader than dead" anyway, and I can only see a point for retro usage when you want to transfer data from your old Amiga disks (a one time occasion most likely) and for that the Pegasos floppy controller is no good anyway (since it's a standard PC controller).

> and not enough PCI slots to compensate for all the mentioned flaws)

Whoaa, FLAWS? Flaw is a much too strong word here, it's clearly more a case of your own personal needs, taste and preferences. As for the number of slots, let's see:

1) You won't get any noticable better HDD performance with a different controller, in any case it will only be worth buying an extra card if you want to use more HDD's than four (or if you want to use real SCSI). So no need for a controller card for General Joe User, the on board one is just fine.

2) OK, so you simply CAN'T LIVE without USB2.0? Well, then buy a card! One slot taken.

3) And you want better sound than the on board sound - buy a card! Two slots taken.

Then you still have a slot left! :-O In that one you could perhaps put a Catweasel to transfer your old Amiga floppies. You could always unplug it when the disks are transfered, to have a free slot again (if an abundance of slots makes you feel better).

The number of PCI slots brings me to another point: One of the key features of the Pegasos motherboard is it's small form factor. In fact, it's almost as small as a MiniITX board (it has the same width) but it's only slightly larger (in it's height) to compensate for the "flaws" of the MiniITX - expandability and ability of customisation through AGP and PCI slots! The board ends right after the last PCI slot, not a millimeter is wasted!
:-)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 39 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 21:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
Stop making so much sense.. my head is exploding =)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 40 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows (165.173.63.57) on 26-Jul-2004 21:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (hooligan/dcs):
> Stop making so much sense.. my head is exploding =)

You read all of that? I only jabbered through the capped lettering and it still made sense.

</exageration>
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 41 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 26-Jul-2004 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (the man in the shadows):
Yes I read it.. I have time now.. wife and the dog are away ;-)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 42 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate (218.214.200.58) on 27-Jul-2004 00:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
> And it will probably be a nightmare to make it support all thinkable hardware >gizmos and various exotic hardware patches that Amiga users has added to their >systems during the last 10-15 years.
don't support it, tell people to do a clean install.

at the very least, don't u think a time limited demo on csppc would make people think about buying a peg?
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 43 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by priest (192.100.124.218) on 27-Jul-2004 03:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
@ anonymous

>> I think that is the core reason. MOS needs to sell the HW of the same
>> company.
>I hope that you are not suggesting that the Pegasos sales so far in the lower thousands has financed the development of MorphOS?

Of course not.
But it should because it is the only product being sold with MOS and I think MOS developers are not any imported asian slaves that do not need food and roof.

>Or that the few sales (2000 top?) of Pegasos motherboards that MorphOS itself has generated has done anyone fat and wealthy?

Of course not.
As a matter of fact, IMO (well known), the price of pegasos make is way too low to cover any R&D costs at all.

>Greed is not the reason to why you haven't seen MorphOS for Amiga yet, rather the opposite,

Right.
But the reason is HW business and the game named "king of the hill".

>a need of narrow prioritys due to limited resources. They can't do it all at once and they can't afford the luxery of spending time to port it to a platform that died ten years ago.

BUT THEY HAVE DONE IT ALL READY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So why not give or sell it out without any further guarrantees.
Money would help the R&D of MOS !!!!!!

>They simply have to focus on the things that might advance the platform.

Propaganda.
There's many sort of believers ...
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 44 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge (213.112.194.117) on 27-Jul-2004 06:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (hooligan/dcs):
"Since when PS/2 went obsolete? Im ALWAYS behind times... :((((((((((((((((("

The day USB was released.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 45 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Crumb // AAT (Registered user) on 27-Jul-2004 06:31 GMT
I guess they'll release it when OS4 for CS-PPC is released :-)

I would be great to run MOS in my CS-PPC :-)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 46 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil (195.1.135.34) on 27-Jul-2004 07:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Amon_Re):
Doh, now you have me looking for mp3s. Evil, evil person.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 47 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil (195.1.135.34) on 27-Jul-2004 07:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
So where can I buy a nice USB keyboard?
I am building a keyboard case in wood, would be EXTREMELY cool if I could use USB for it.

Also, can a USB keyboard reside on a USB hub? Would a hub be transparent without any computer intervention? Otherwise it wouldn't work in the BIOS or similar.

Currently I only use USB for my flash card reader (it's one of the "6 in 1" devices which are actually 4-in-1s with µD support.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 48 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re (Registered user) on 27-Jul-2004 07:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Christophe Decanini):
True, but that should be a one time only "investment", considering they have it running already according to them, this isn't a valid excuse if you ask me.

But still, it's their product, they do as they please
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 49 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (81.86.64.212) on 27-Jul-2004 09:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (hooligan/dcs):
PS/2 suck. Noobs are always bending the pins. Pins are out. Do you know how much money a motherboard manufacturer could save over a year if they did not have to buy PS/2 connectors?

USB all the way. Out with everything else
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 50 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (213.226.84.155) on 27-Jul-2004 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (priest):
@ cheesegrate

> at the very least, don't u think a time limited demo on csppc would make
> people think about buying a peg?

How many? 10? 20? Even if a 100 people would buy a Peg as a direct result of a MorphOS Amiga port it wouldn't justify the amount of work IMHO. I know that the first production runs of the Pegasos 2 has been in the hundreds but that is hopefully temporarily while the platform is taking off (it will take at least a couple of tens of thousands to make the platform sustainable), and those sales has not been conditioned to the MorhpOS team putting their work on next MorphOS release aside in order to make a Amiga port. All work that is being put into this project, is made with the hopes of some kind of great future reward, and a hundred Pegasos boards will not be it!

@ priest

> But it should because it is the only product being sold with MOS

Hopefully it will! But that certainly won't happen in the current state of the OS, but who knows, perhaps after the upcoming "major OS release"? So let's not delay that more than necessary ...

> As a matter of fact, IMO (well known), the price of pegasos make is way too
> low to cover any R&D costs at all.

That depends of what sales figures you are taking into the calculation. If you are calculating on a few hundreds Pegasos sold, then that might be true, but not if you are talking about tens and tens of thousands or more. The current price of the Pegasos is said to cover the production costs and generate a small profit for every board sold. The R&D was financed by other ways long before even the first production run (just as in all new startups), with the hopes of a future reward once the platform takes off, which will never happen if you would try using a pricing scheme that tries to pay off the entire R&D costs by the first few thousands of boards. I would even say that the opposite goes - if they want to see a REAL take off of the platform, and an even an increased chance of getting their invested money returned and a overall profit on top of that, then the price has to go down even more, possibly by 50-100 euros per board. But that will only happen if the quantities rise, so this is a bit like a catch 22. Big customers like Freescale and similar could definitely help!

> BUT THEY HAVE DONE IT ALL READY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No they have not. If the OS would have been ready and running on CSPPC's in a end-user version identical to the current "MorphOS 1.4.2" then they would of course have released it. Probably for free. But it's not. Sure, various developers are using various configurations of MorphOS on CSPPC but those are internal versions - heck, it may even be wrong to call them "versions" as I have a feeling that internally among the MorphOS developers the OS is more like unique lumps of clay, all moulded differently on different developers machines and not equal to the "version numbers" we know of. Putting together a general 1.4.2 version that runs rock stable on all thinkable hardware configurations could not exactly be done over night.

> So why not give or sell it out without any further guarrantees.

Because there is no such thing! If anything does not match a fastidious Amiga user's personal expectations, they will rave and shout loud on all forum they come across. You should know that, we have seen it on a regular basis the last years.

> Money would help the R&D of MOS !!!!!!

Yes, real money, but the kind of money this could possibly generate would probably only pay for Ralf Scmidts coffee for a week or so. The efforts would not be worth it IMHO.

Roll out MorphOS 2.0 (or whatever) for Pegasos ASAP instead! :-) That could really make the platform take off!
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