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[Rant] Where is MorphOS for CSPPC?ANN.lu
Posted on 26-Jul-2004 11:33 GMT by Kolbjørn Barmen (Edited on 2004-07-26 13:40:05 GMT by Christian Kemp)78 comments
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Whatever happened to the promised support for PowerUp? While people are discussing the meaning of "promise" and "support" I want to ask what the final outcome of MorphOS for PowerUP machines is. web archive (20030602171643) of www.morphos.net/support.php3. Was it ever promised? Not? Versions? Support? When? The mention of CSPPC and BlizzPPC was there for more than 3 years before it vanished when morphos.de/morphos.net became ..uhm.. genesized. :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 51 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jul-2004 09:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Anonymous):
> Do you know how much money a motherboard manufacturer could save over a year
> if they did not have to buy PS/2 connectors?

Probably at least a euro.

But I agree, if there should ever be a Pegasos 3 I would vote for USB only. That of course provided that the firmware has been developed to fully support this (which perhaps even already is included in the soon to be released firmware upgrade, who knows?).
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 52 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 27-Jul-2004 10:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Anonymous):
>PS/2 suck. Noobs are always bending the pins. Pins are out. Do you know how much money a motherboard manufacturer could save over a year if they did not have to buy PS/2 connectors?

Weird.. I have never even heard of such.. never in the 20+ years I've been with computers. One must be really REALLY freaking n00b to break a ps/2 connector :P
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 53 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 27-Jul-2004 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Olegil):
Hehe :P Cool song eh :P
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 54 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 27-Jul-2004 11:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (hooligan/dcs):
It DOES happen, but hey, some of our customers also manage to break usb connectors so i doubt it would make much difference
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 55 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 27-Jul-2004 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (hooligan/dcs):
Thanks a freaking bundle, dude. I've shot moose for less than that. Repeatedly.

In fact, no moose has ever called me a noob and lived.

I guess you have realised by now that I in fact have bent PS/2 pins. It's not at all difficult, at least not if you have unplugged about 10000 keyboards and mice. ;-)

USB is a LOT more pluggable. I'm not quite certain how I would go about breaking a USB connector without actually falling and hitting a cable plugged into the front-mounted USB connector with my forehead or something.

And PS/2 is completely redundant if you have USB. There's nothing you can do with PS/2 that you can't do with USB (except of course plugging a PS/2-only device into it ;-) )
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 56 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 27-Jul-2004 12:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Olegil):
> And PS/2 is completely redundant if you have USB. There's nothing you can> do with PS/ 2 that you can't do with USB (except of course plugging a > PS/2-only device into it ;-) )Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a proper 3-button USB mouse?i.e., one without those annoying scroll-wheel thingies for those of uswho actually use all 3 buttons. I'll tell you how hard: there is exactlyONE model being manufactured these days, as far as I can tell after QUITEsome time spent searching. It's much easier to find proper 3-button PS/2mice....
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 57 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 27-Jul-2004 12:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Olegil):
"USB is a LOT more pluggable. I'm not quite certain how I would go about breaking a USB connector without actually falling and hitting a cable plugged into the front-mounted USB connector with my forehead or something."

LOL! I wonder how some of our customers manage to put in an usb connector in the wrong way
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 58 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 27-Jul-2004 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Olegil):
so far i have seen more broken usb ports than ps/2 ports.. as I said, zero broken ps/2 ports so far.

But hey.. I can break a tank if I wanted to, too.


There are tens of millions of workstations in this world without onboard usb, how can we call ps/2 obsolete?
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 59 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 27-Jul-2004 13:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (hooligan/dcs):
Well, we need an excuse to make people buy new stuff.
Look at the AT standard, hunderds of millions of PC's used powersupplies with the AT connectors, then Intel said, fuck that, we want ATX now, in about 1 year it became hard to find AT powersupplies, and well, if your PSU died without taking the rest out, you'd have to retrofit an ATX psu with adaptors, if your reseller had them, that is, if not, well, new pc's were getting cheaper.

It's commerce, nothing more, nothing less.
(To those USB supporters out there running a crappy OS (Windows), i hope you never have knackered USB support, 'cause you'll wish you owned a PS/2 keyboard then
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 60 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 27-Jul-2004 14:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
"I personally have no need for the horsepower of the G3 or G4 for running old amiga apps."

When you run Amiga 68k programs on a fast processor, they behave like new programs. However, I'm not sure a G4 is fast enough for serious work.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 61 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 27-Jul-2004 15:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (Don Cox):
So, you are saying that no Mac computer is fast enough for any "serious work"? With 1-4 gigaflops (billion floating point operations per second) performance at 500 MHz; by government definition when it was released in 1999, it was a supercomputer.

What would you say is "serious work" and how much speed do you reckon that it would require?
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 62 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jul-2004 16:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (Don Cox):
> I'm not sure a G4 is fast enough for serious work.

Trust me, it is!
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 63 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 27-Jul-2004 16:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (ehaines):
>>>.Do you have any idea how hard it is to find a proper 3-button USB mouse?
i.e., one without those annoying scroll-wheel thingies for those of us
who actually use all 3 buttons


You do realize the scroll wheel is also a 3rd button right? So you still have 3 buttons, you can just also use it to scroll things if you choose.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 64 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 27-Jul-2004 17:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Agima):
> You do realize the scroll wheel is also a 3rd button right? Duh, yes. :) > So you still have 3 buttons, you can just also use it to scroll things if > you choose.It's annoying to use it as a button on a regular basis....
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 65 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Agima on 27-Jul-2004 18:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (ehaines):
>>It's annoying to use it as a button on a regular basis....

Porbably.. I couldn't live with out my scroll wheel though. It would be like losing a limb :)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 66 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 27-Jul-2004 19:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Agima):
> Porbably.. I couldn't live with out my scroll wheel though. It would be like
> losing a limb :)

I agree with you both. I could not live without a scroll wheel, and IT IS annoying to have to press the wheel down to use the third button because you most often accidently scroll it as well when you press it.

However, I actually have one of those mouses with TWO scroll wheels (nice! at lest on a system that supports it) AND a separate third button, but that button is accessable at the left side of the mouse, where the thumb is for a right handed person, and I don't really like that but it works.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 67 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 27-Jul-2004 20:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Anonymous):
There are also hardware problems that do NOT show up unless you run a PPC OS...
When my PSU blew up it damaged the BPPC. No problems on 68k... until I realized
that I couldn't use the G-Rex or anything with a dynamic PCI address with a PPC
OS... Only the BVPPC works.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 68 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 28-Jul-2004 01:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Anonymous):
PS/2 ports will stay for awhile even with PCI-E generation i.e. X86 world’s strength legacy support while going forward with new technologies.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 69 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by hammer on 28-Jul-2004 01:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Olegil):
> And PS/2 is completely redundant if you have USB. There's nothing you can do >with PS/2 that you can't do with USB (except of course plugging a PS/2-only
>device into it ;
One could buy a PS/2 to USB converter...
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 70 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Tronman on 28-Jul-2004 03:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
Why all this about USB on the Peg (and by extension, any USB 1.1
interface) being so slow?? I get most of a megabyte per second on
transfers, its been way more than adequate for scanning, downloading
from my digicam etc. I mean yeah, I have a SCSI scanner and it
probably dumps data down the wires faster, but since its an ancient
three pass scanner, that becomes a moot point eh?

USB is suitable for much more than just HID stuff. I'm using a USB
mouse on my peg, and it has NEVER stumbled once even when hitting the
USB bus hard even on the same root hub as the mouse.

Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would complain about USB these
days, especially since Amiga-like systems have one of the best USB
stacks on any platform, bar none! Poseidon Rulezz!

Maybe it would would only cut the price of the mobo fifty cents or a
buck to remove that group of PeeCee legacy garbage connectors from the
back of the Peg, but that cost would add up quick in productions of
thousands of boards.

Finally, I had an A3000T with a CSPPC and Cybervision card on it for
several years. Loved that system. Miss it dearly. Don't miss how
hot it ran if I didn't have three fans on it, or having to reconnect
that KEL ('from Hell' to quote Dave Haynie) connector every six
months. The Pegasos is just much cleaner, thats all. So is an Amiga
One, for that matter. Its just a matter of the newer systems using
much newer, faster interfaces. And, maintaining and improving the HAL
for the CSPPC would still be work-I'm getting the impression MOS needs
things the old stuff just can't provide anymore, at least not
reliably. Just think of having to have your HAL deal with not just
the original CSPPC and Amiga beneath it, but that bevy of PCI slot
addons which you can get for it.. And what about all those Zorro
cards..

Its just better to keep the old box running the old OS and enjoy it
for what it is-instead of trying to hot rod it into something its not.
I love my 1978 Cadillac, but I know it'll NEVER be a 2004 Hammett CTS
no matter how hard I try :-) Although the trunk in the old Caddy is
bigger..
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 71 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Jul-2004 04:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Sammy Nordström):
"What would you say is "serious work" and how much speed do you reckon that it would require?"

Rendering 3D animation.

As much as you can buy.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 72 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Jul-2004 04:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Tronman):
"Maybe it would would only cut the price of the mobo fifty cents or a
buck to remove that group of PeeCee legacy garbage connectors from the
back of the Peg, but that cost would add up quick in productions of
thousands of boards."

That doesn't help the user, who finds that because the manufacturer has cut corners and left out standard ports, he can no longer plug in an old mouse or keyboard but has to buy new ones, costing more than the reduction in price.

USB is fine if it is supported in the ROM. I wouldn't want to rely on a port that is supported only by software on a disk.

My preference is for a computer with every connection socket that has ever been used, all supported in the ROM; able to read every known disk format; able to read every known image and audio file format; etc.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 73 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 28-Jul-2004 05:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Tronman):
> Why all this about USB on the Peg (and by extension, any USB 1.1
> interface) being so slow?? I get most of a megabyte per second on
> transfers, its been way more than adequate for scanning, downloading
> from my digicam etc.

Sure, if you dont mind sitting there and waiting.. I have several USB/Firewire disks ranging from 40GB and up. There are times I just want to dump data to/from them, and with slow USB this is not fun. Also I have actually used high resolution scanners on faster USB and it is indeed.. faster.

> I mean yeah, I have a SCSI scanner and it
> probably dumps data down the wires faster, but since its an ancient
> three pass scanner, that becomes a moot point eh?

At least it is your moot point, since you brought it up :)

> USB is suitable for much more than just HID stuff. I'm using a USB
> mouse on my peg, and it has NEVER stumbled once even when hitting the
> USB bus hard even on the same root hub as the mouse.

So you are saying that it works? Great, I didnt expect it to be bogus, I just said that is slower than it could be. And for me this is of importance due to the other USB hardware I have, when I first read the Pegasos2 specs I thought it was a typing mistake or something.

> Frankly, I can't understand why anyone would complain about USB these
> days, especially since Amiga-like systems have one of the best USB
> stacks on any platform, bar none! Poseidon Rulezz!

Well.. there are number of USB related things I can simply not do with Poseidon that I do daily from linux, be it ethernet over USB, bluetooth, audio.. :)

> Finally, I had an A3000T with a CSPPC and Cybervision card on it for
> several years. Loved that system. Miss it dearly. Don't miss how
> hot it ran if I didn't have three fans on it, or having to reconnect
> that KEL ('from Hell' to quote Dave Haynie) connector every six
> months.

Luckily I have had no such issues with my A3000. I have a temperature sensors in mine and I have never seen them go past 55°C.

> And, maintaining and improving the HAL
> for the CSPPC would still be work - I'm getting the impression MOS needs
> things the old stuff just can't provide anymore, at least not
> reliably. Just think of having to have your HAL deal with not just
> the original CSPPC and Amiga beneath it, but that bevy of PCI slot
> addons which you can get for it.. And what about all those Zorro
> cards..

Oddly this was not a problem with MorphOS 0.4 was it? Or linux for that matter. Are you suggesting that the new MorphOS is less flexible? :)

> Its just better to keep the old box running the old OS and enjoy it
> for what it is-instead of trying to hot rod it into something its not.

Installing a newer OS is considered turning it into a hot rod? Heh.
The old box is quite adequate to test-run a "lean and mean" OS like MorphOS.

> I love my 1978 Cadillac, but I know it'll NEVER be a 2004 Hammett CTS
> no matter how hard I try :-) Although the trunk in the old Caddy is
> bigger..

More moot points.. :)

Ah well, soon enough I can simply install PearPC on a sufficiently fast PC and try MorphOS on that (I understand that even BBRV likes the idea). Or, something amazing like a new and improved Pegasos might show up, one that I might buy.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 74 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 28-Jul-2004 08:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Don Cox):
So, you think 3D rendering hasn't been possible since Pentium4@2GHz or more?

First of all, the 3D rendering applications we have on the Amiga today was created back in the days when noone had heard of the term Giga in relation to computers yet. So, even if more speed is an advantage, a G4 for that software should be more than enough for making it possible, don't you think?

Second of all, "serious work" encompasses quite alot more than just 3D rendering. Everyone does some form of "serious work" on their computer but most doesn't even know what 3D rendering means.

Thirdly, in every aspect on "serious work", I'd say it's the software available for the Amiga that is limiting us, not the speed of the G4 nor the G3.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 75 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 28-Jul-2004 22:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (Anonymous):
Well, you can try to find an A4Tech 4D (or 4D+) Mouse, I have one of those, they
were only made with a PS/2 interface AFAIK. They have 3 buttons (5 for the +
version) and 2 wheels, one on each side of the third button. They are really
comfortable, especially for UT2k4 or Q3... :-)
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 76 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Jul-2004 16:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (Sammy Nordström):
"So, you think 3D rendering hasn't been possible since Pentium4@2GHz or more?"

Of course it has. You could do it on an A2000. It took forever.


"First of all, the 3D rendering applications we have on the Amiga today was created back in the days when noone had heard of the term Giga in relation to computers yet. So, even if more speed is an advantage, a G4 for that software should be more than enough for making it possible, don't you think?"

I don't see any logic there. If an object to be rendered has so many polygons, such and such textures, is lit by so many lights, and so on, then there are a certain number of calculations to be made. If you want to render complicated scenes, as is expected nowadays, the number of calculations is enormous and even the fastest current computers are too slow. They had to rush out and buy a load more computers to get "Return of the King" finished in time.

No, a G4 is not enough for serious work.


"Second of all, "serious work" encomasses quite a lot more than just 3D rendering. Everyone does some form of "serious work" on their computer but most doesn't even know what 3D rendering means."

Sure. There is weather forecasting, for instance - but we don't have any Amiga software for that.


"Thirdly, in every aspect on "serious work", I'd say it's the software available for the Amiga that is limiting us, not the speed of the G4 nor the G3."

No, the renderers are fine. It would be nice to have radiosity and other features found in the latest Lightwave, but these add even more calculations and are very demanding on the processor.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 77 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Tronman on 31-Jul-2004 02:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Kolbjørn Barmen):
I just find it odd that you complain about not doing bluetooth on the
peg (usually 11mbps, slower than USB) or audio, and if you're doing
audio enough to saturate a USB line, you should probably be using a
PCI card anyway. The mobo connector on a 3000 is topping out at MAYBE
25Mbytes/sec, whereas the full PCI implementation of a Pegasos is
what, 133MBytes/sec? Well, thats the theoretical max granted, so its
probably less but you get the idea. All I'm saying is that 1) I can
buy a Pegasos, case, HDD, graphics card and so on for less than I can
kit up an A3000 and CSPPC/CVPPC, and that 2)the USB on the Peg is
adequate for many tasks, if not the most exceptional interface ever.
3) I can stick in a USB 2.0 card if I need the speed, IIRC Poseidon
supports at least the one Elbox sells (please correct me if I'm wrong
about this..) What you do on Linux that can't be done on MOS has to
do with drivers anyway, not Poseidon (its surely up to the task of
having more stuff added in) or MOS in general.

And finally, my point about 'hot rodding' an old box wasn't moot. Go
ahead, try MOS on that old hardware - it will do OK, but its
would be running in a place it is no longer meant to be and it isn't a
fair test considering how limited the older system is compared to what
it SHOULD be running on.

MOS on PearPC would probably be faster than MOS on Cyberstorm
hardware.
Where is MorphOS for CSPPC? : Comment 78 of 78ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 31-Jul-2004 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Don Cox):
C'mon... No normal desktop computer, regardless of processor family, is ever going to be enough for big 3D rendering projects by big movie/game companies nor professional weather forecasting. For those kind of things, you need a supercomputer or a cluster of multiple computers, or something along those lines.

I'm getting the feeling that you are grasping at straws here, Don. I mean, the G4 is making it possible to do anything you could possibly want from a desktop computer and with AmigaOS4, it will probably do most things faster than your ordinary PC equivalent.
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