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[Motd] MOTD 26/Jul/2004ANN.lu
Posted on 26-Jul-2004 11:35 GMT by Christian Kemp82 comments
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I'm looking for additional front page and/or comments moderator(s), initially just for the month of August. If you are (mostly) impartial towards the various companies, have a few minutes to spare every day, and are interested in helping out, please send me an email to further discuss this.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 51 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 29-Jul-2004 05:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (brotheris):
No. That makes the PC a Linux system with a 68k emulator running AmigaOS.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 52 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 29-Jul-2004 05:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Sammy Nordström):
Running MorphOS, regardless of the underlying hardware, makes your system a MorphOS system, just like running Linux on your Amiga would make your Amiga a Linux system.

So running AmigaOS regardless of the underlying hardware, doesn't make it Amiga ?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 53 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 29-Jul-2004 05:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (brotheris):
Huh?

Try this:

Running <insert preferred choice of OS>, regardless of the underlying hardware, makes your system a <insert preferred choice of OS> system.

If there is anything that is not clear to you, just use the above template. I've had it with this off-topic discussion that is obviously not getting anywhere what so ever.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 54 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 29-Jul-2004 05:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Sammy Nordström):
Running <insert preferred choice of OS>, regardless of the underlying hardware, makes your system a <insert preferred choice of OS> system.

Running AmigaOS, on x86 box with help of Amithlon makes it Amiga system then. So is it Amiga ? :-)
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 55 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 29-Jul-2004 06:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (brotheris):
Please, now you're starting to get on my nerves...

Amithlon is not AmigaOS. A PC running Amithlon is NOT running AmigaOS as the operating system of the hardware, it's only running as the operating system of an emulated hardware environment. The actual operating system of Amithlon is Linux, which makes the PC running Amithlon a Linux system rather than an Amiga system.

But you already know all of the above, right? I don't know why I'm bothering myself with you to begin with...
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 56 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 29-Jul-2004 17:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Sammy Nordström):
But you already know all of the above, right?

Offtopic, but you do know that Amithlon creates 68k enviroment out of x86 box which can run AmigaOS. So it is AmigaOS running. And it is running official Amiga branded AmigaOS. So it is an Amiga ?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 57 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 29-Jul-2004 22:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (brotheris):
>Offtopic, but you do know that Amithlon creates 68k enviroment out of x86 box
>which can run AmigaOS.

A *virtual* 68k environment, yes. It's also known as an emulator.

>So it is AmigaOS running.

Yes, it runs in the emulated 68k environment.

>And it is running official Amiga branded AmigaOS.

Yes, otherwise we wouldn't be calling it AmigaOS, now would we?

>So it is an Amiga ?

Please read my words very carefully:

The AmigaOS in Amithlon is not running as the operating system of the hardware, only as the operating system of the emulated hardware environment. The actual OS running as the operating system of the hardware is Linux, which makes it a Linux system.

The same thing goes if you, for example, install WinUAE on your Windows system and then install the official AmigaOS within the emulated environment of WinUAE; your computer is still a Windows system.

If you still don't understand, drop me a mail. We've been spamming this thread enough already. Sorry Christian.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 58 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 30-Jul-2004 09:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Sammy Nordström):
which makes it a Linux system

So when I use YAM on Amithlon, I use Linux system ?

The same thing goes if you, for example, install WinUAE on your Windows system and then install the official AmigaOS within the emulated environment of WinUAE; your computer is still a Windows system.

Even when I don't use Windows directly ?

If you still don't understand, drop me a mail

I understand, but don't agree.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 59 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 31-Jul-2004 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (brotheris):
>>which makes it a Linux system
>
>So when I use YAM on Amithlon, I use Linux system ?

Imagine that you put on a virtual reality helmet and gloves in an arcade hall, and then when you are in the virtual reality game, you drink a glass of water. Question: Are you standing in an arcade hall and holding up your empty hand against your mouth or are you drinking water?

You see, the hardware environment that AmigaOS is operating in when you are running Amithlon is a virtual hardware environment. It's emulated and does not exist for real. The actual operating system of the hardware is Linux. If your opinion differ, you are simply fooled by an illusion.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 60 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 01-Aug-2004 08:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (Sammy Nordström):
Emails recieved by YAM on Amithlon box are not real, I get it now.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 61 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 01-Aug-2004 13:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (brotheris):
>Emails recieved by YAM on Amithlon box are not real, I get it now.

I've read my posts over and over again now. Please tell me, exactly WHERE did you find a statement even coming close to suggesting that? Seriously, I must be blind or something...

Now for todays lesson:

I said that the HARDWARE ENVIRONMENT that AmigaOS runs on within Amithlon is a virtual hardware environment (ie emulated) that doesn't exist for real. Now repeat after me:

A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment. A hardware environment is not the same thing as an e-mail and an e-mail is not a hardware environment.

Please write it down a hundred times every night before you go to bed for three weeks. Then *maybe* you will comprehend this one sentence, but just maybe. I have my doubts. The following paragraph is something you should wait with reading until you have done your homework and understood the meaning of the above repeated meaning, ok?

Ok. Here goes...

While it's true that it can perform much of the same tasks as the real thing for real (ie running YAM, recieving/sending e-mails, etc.), it's still just operating in an hardware environment that doesn't exist for real. Neither the real hardware nor the actual hardware operating OS is Amiga. It's a PC running Linux as the OS. Try booting Amithlon without the Linux kernel if you can, it's impossible. The AmigaOS in Amithlon is pretty much like the AmigaDE, it cannot operate without an underlying OS to host it.

I most oftently repect other people's views, but I just can't stand ignorance and the inability to reason. It just pushes my buttons...
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 62 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 01-Aug-2004 14:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Sammy Nordström):
that AmigaOS runs on within Amithlon is a virtual hardware environment (ie emulated) that doesn't exist for real

Well duh, my AC97 is virtual, my ethernet boards are virtual. I know how Amithlon operates, it was explained by inteligent people.

It's a PC running Linux as the OS

It is underlying kernel runing 68k emulator (+ more) in userspace. You know that Linux is kernel. Everything else from users point of view is the same. It is running real AmigaOS. You said that OS defines system, so it is AmigaOS system -> Amiga. There is no Linux for simple user in sight. Write it down few hundred times ;-)
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 63 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 01-Aug-2004 18:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (brotheris):
>>that AmigaOS runs on within Amithlon is a virtual hardware environment (ie
>>emulated) that doesn't exist for real
>
>Well duh, my AC97 is virtual, my ethernet boards are virtual.

No, the actual underlying hardware is of course not virtual and exist for real, which yet again is not something I ever claimed. I'm saying that the AmigaOS is running on a virtual 68k hardware environment while the Linux kernel and the 68k emulator is what's running on the real hardware because the AmigaOS itself cannot run on x86 hardware, period.

>I know how
>Amithlon operates, it was explained by inteligent people.

I'm sure people have tried to explain many things to you. Question is, do you understand it?

>>It's a PC running Linux as the OS
>
>It is underlying kernel runing 68k emulator (+ more) in userspace. You know
>that Linux is kernel. Everything else from users point of view is the same.
>It is running real AmigaOS. You said that OS defines system, so it is AmigaOS
>system -> Amiga. There is no Linux for simple user in sight. Write it down
>few hundred times ;-)

First of all, I'm not ignorant enough to accept similarities and how things seems as a definition of what is and what isn't, especially not when there are objective truths that are telling me something else.

Second of all, the kernel is the essential center of a computer operating system, the core that provides basic services for all other parts of the operating system and the running applications. It handles all requests or completed I/O operations, determines which programs share the kernel's processing time in what order, gives use of the hardware to each process when it is scheduled, manages the operating system's address spaces in memory and storage, etc. The kernel *is* the OS. The rest is just making use of what the kernel enables it to do.

The AmigaOS in Amithlon is running ontop of a 68k emulator and the 68k emulator is running as an *application* ontop of the Linux kernel, while the Linux kernel is the actual operating system of the hardware.

Again, if you think that it's AmigaOS that is operating the system, then you are either fooled by this illusion or just plain ignorant. I mean, while it may be an excuse or an explanation for your reasoning, how things seems to you is still not going to overcome the facts of reality.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 64 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 01-Aug-2004 19:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Sammy Nordström):
No, the actual underlying hardware is of course not virtual and exist for real

That is why native AmigaOS drivers control it ;-)

'm sure people have tried to explain many things to you. Question is, do you understand it?

Sure I do, more than you ever will. As I wrote earlier, I understand what are you trying to say, I just don't agree with it (translation - bullshit).

The kernel *is* the OS

Bleeep. When you leave exec.library only, what can it do ? What can programs do only using it ? I'm sure you've ment monolithic kernel (such as linux), but it still is not an OS. But this is offtopic in our discussion.

Amithlon IS emulator, nobody said otherwise, but actualy it turns your x86 box into Amiga. It runs an (as you love) officialy named officialy developed AmigaOS.
It seems that the point will be distracted once again and we will not be able to finish first step and go to anotherone: API compatible OS to AmigaOS is Amiga too ;-)
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 65 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 01-Aug-2004 22:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (brotheris):
> but actualy it turns your x86 box into Amiga.

Nope. The x86 processor is not "turned into" a 68k processor and the PC is not turned into an Amiga. I'm going to say it again; Linux is the operating system, the emulator is running as an application, and the AmigaOS is running on the virtual hardware environment of the emulator.

You keep repeating that Amithlon on a PC is running the official AmigaOS and therefore it's an Amiga, like it would somehow change the fact that it's not running natively on the hardware. You see, an OS have to run natively on the hardware in order to operate it. If you run an OS in an emulator, it's the OS running the emulator that is operating the hardware, not the one running on the emulator. AmigaOS running ontop of an emulator makes the the virtual hardware environment of the emulator an Amiga, not the real hardware nor the underlying OS.

Please stop intentionally mixing up the virtual hardware environment from the actual hardware and OS of an Amithlon system. I don't think anyone of us is that confused about what is what, don't you agree?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 66 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 02-Aug-2004 04:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Sammy Nordström):
You see, an OS have to run natively on the hardware in order to operate it

Then why there are AmigaOS drivers inside Amithlon which control hardware directly ? =)
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 67 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 02-Aug-2004 05:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (brotheris):
Because the emulator task has been given direct access to those devices by the Linux kernel. However, that doesn't change the fact that the AmigaOS is executed within an emulator that is running as a Linux application.

When are you going to give up?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 68 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 02-Aug-2004 06:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (brotheris):
For example, MakeCD has direct access to your CD-R and CD-RW devices, does that make MakeCD your OS? Of course not. Alot of applications access your hardware directly, but that's only because the OS they are running on is giving them direct access. The same goes for the Linux application in Amithlon that is providing the AmigaOS with the 68k emulation.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 69 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 02-Aug-2004 06:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (Sammy Nordström):
Because the emulator task has been given direct access to those devices by the Linux kernel

Yes, but an OS have to run natively on the hardware in order to operate it. It AmigaOS on Amithlon running natively, because it can operate hardware ? ;-D

However, that doesn't change the fact that the AmigaOS is executed within an emulator that is running as a Linux application

Sure. When you use Photoshop and your colegue calls and says 'let's dring some booze at the bar, I have some pretty neat girls for your pleasure' and what do you say: I can't, 'I use MacOSX/Windows' or 'I use Photoshop' and must finish my job ? =)

When are you going to give up?

I'm having fun, when there will be no fun, I'll stop, for now there is someone who provides free fun.

For example, MakeCD has direct access to your CD-R and CD-RW devices

No it does not. It uses (for example) scsi.device and its direct scsi interface.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 70 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 02-Aug-2004 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (brotheris):
>>Because the emulator task has been given direct access to those devices by
>>the Linux kernel
>
>Yes, but an OS have to run natively on the hardware in order to operate it. It
>AmigaOS on Amithlon running natively, because it can operate hardware ? ;-D

Oh please... Now you're asking me if AmigaOS in Amithlon is running natively or not. Newsflash: Amithlon is an emulator.

>>However, that doesn't change the fact that the AmigaOS is executed within an
>>emulator that is running as a Linux application
>
>Sure. When you use Photoshop and your colegue calls and says 'let's dring some
>booze at the bar, I have some pretty neat girls for your pleasure' and what do
>you say: I can't, 'I use MacOSX/Windows' or 'I use Photoshop' and must finish
>my job ? =)

What has that got to do with anything? We're not talking about the jargon you and I have with our friends, we're talking about wether a PC running Amithlon is an Amiga computer or not.

>>When are you going to give up?
>
>I'm having fun, when there will be no fun, I'll stop, for now there is someone
>who provides free fun.

Well, I'm the kind of person that thinks it's better to laugh with each other rather than at each other. I guess that says alot about the differences between you and me.

>>For example, MakeCD has direct access to your CD-R and CD-RW devices
>
>No it does not. It uses (for example) scsi.device and its direct scsi
>interface.

Ok. Not the best of examples. But surely you are competent enough to comprehend that an OS may give an application direct access to the hardware and that it doesn't change the fact that an application doesn't become an OS just because it has direct access to hardware devices?

For heaven's sake, how hard can it be to comprehend that hardware that is not capable of running the AmigaOS without emulation simply isn't an Amiga computer?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 71 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 03-Aug-2004 07:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Sammy Nordström):
Oh please...

Do it to yourself. You said that "OS have to run natively on the hardware in order to operate it" and I provided few examples where AmigaOS running on Amithlon controls hardware directly, so by your own definition it is native ;-)

What has that got to do with anything?

A lot. So if you use AmigaOS on Amithlon you will say that you use Linux ?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 72 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 03-Aug-2004 09:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (brotheris):
>You said that "OS have to run natively on the hardware in order to operate it"
>and I provided few examples where AmigaOS running on Amithlon controls
>hardware directly, so by your own definition it is native ;-)

I meant native as in the opposite to emulated. Take an AmigaOS3.9 CD (not Amithlon), stick into your PC CDROM, and see if it will run. You see, without the aid of that Linux kernel and the 68k emulator, the AmigaOS wouldn't be able to run on the PC. That's what seperates AmigaOS from a real PC operating system and that's why the PC is not an Amiga computer. It's as simple as that and there is no point in discussing this any further.

>>What has that got to do with anything?
>
>A lot. So if you use AmigaOS on Amithlon you will say that you use Linux ?

I would say that I'm using Amithlon. Your point beeing?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 73 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 03-Aug-2004 09:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (Sammy Nordström):
Take an AmigaOS3.9 CD (not Amithlon), stick into your PC CDROM

Do the same with your Amiga. It doesn't boot your CD ? Same as PC ;-)
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 74 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 03-Aug-2004 09:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (brotheris):
No, but I can install and run it. See the difference?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 75 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 03-Aug-2004 10:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (Sammy Nordström):
By using AmigaOS, so can PC if it uses AmigaOS ;-)

If you'll have Amithlon in flashrom and it wouldn't show any 'non amiga' output, still not Amiga enough for you ?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 76 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 03-Aug-2004 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (brotheris):
A PC is not an Amiga computer until it can run the AmigaOS without the aid from another OS or emulator. Amithlon is not AmigaOS, it's Amithlon. Installing Amithlon on a PC makes the PC an Amithlon system, not an Amiga.

Now please drop the argument about what Amithlon *seems* like to the user. Even the most computer illiterate will realize the difference between Amithlon and the AmigaOS if you try to install the original AmigaOS directly on the PC without the aid of Amithlon. It clearly demonstrates that a PC simply cannot run the AmigaOS by itself, now doesn't it? No flashrom or boot sequence will ever be able to hide that.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 77 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 03-Aug-2004 12:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Sammy Nordström):
So system is not defined by the OS you use on it ?
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 78 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 03-Aug-2004 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (brotheris):
On the contrary, it is very much defined by the OS you run on it. That's why I call a PC running Linux a Linux computer.

But isn't a PC with Amithlon running the original AmigaOS, you say? Simple answer: No. The emulator is running the AmigaOS, not the PC.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 79 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 03-Aug-2004 14:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Sammy Nordström):
Ok, if someone asks again 'what is it', I'll say 'Linux'. Thanks, pal!
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 80 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 03-Aug-2004 15:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 79 (brotheris):
Well, you do as you want. I'm still going to call it Amithlon.
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 81 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 03-Aug-2004 15:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (Sammy Nordström):
Amithlon is not an OS :-P
MOTD 26/Jul/2004 : Comment 82 of 82ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 03-Aug-2004 16:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (brotheris):
Amithlon is not just an emulator. Even if very minimalistic, it does include a Linux based OS that launches the emulator. The emulator is an application and applications needs an OS to run.

But what about those Amiga programs that you could boot from disk without running the workbench, you say? Well, that was thanks to the fact that the core part of the AmigaOS was in the AmigaROM. A PC doesn't have an OS in ROM and therefore you must supply your own OS, or atleast the most essential stuff like a kernel, if you want the application to run without having an OS preinstalled and already running on the hardware.
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