| Apology accepted! : Comment 51 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 08-Aug-2004 22:52 GMT | In reply to Comment 41 (AF):
Amiga Inc did publicly "apologise unreservedly" with regard to the handling of the promotion.
And Fleecy is/was the CTO of Amiga Inc and makes technology decisions, so I think he is the right person to speak for that instead of Bill McEwen.
....It's on Amiga.com dude.
The link given by somebody else is just to the news headline page. For what it's worth (I'm bored and sitting at my office desk with nothing much else to do), the only apology on that page is for the late announcement that Amiga wouldn't be attending Cebit. I do recall an apology from Fleecy about the t-shirts actually; I think he said it in one of the "Ask Fleecy" sessions at Amigaworld.net, but am not going to look for it.
The significant difference, of course, is that Genesi's dealings with the OpenBSD developer were a private matter actually involving only the two company and the individual, whereas Fleecy was apologizing publically because the company had come up short in a public promotional deal involving apparently at least a thousand people.
Similarly, Matt Parsons publically apologized (on the OpenBSD mailing list, which is archived publically) because he posted damaging false claims on that list and was making an effort to retract the claims and set the record straight.
-- gary_c |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 52 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AF on 09-Aug-2004 00:01 GMT | In reply to Comment 51 (gary_c):
@ gary_c
Look better:
"Club Amiga T-Shirts
Jan 4, 2003 - Amiga Inc. would like to apologise unreservedly for the delay in getting the T-shirts out. We have received all the orders from the dealers and no blame should be attached to the dealers for the delay. There are several reasons for the delay and we are working on trying to get these remedied as quickly as possible."
Gary you are a well known Genesi advocate and strong Amiga Inc critic, but I think you should ackowledge that some people may indeed find Genesi's behaviour more worrying.
Like for instance that they hired tons of new people including ANN's very own Christian Kemp, while they weren't even able to pay the existing employees for quite some time. That a company runs out of cash and is unable to pay for what is obligated to pay for is one (sadly not too uncommon) thing for a startup, but to hire new people, commit to more advertisings, etc without paying in some eyes is something completely different.
Personally I find Genesi's past approach to the Amiga community unacceptable, like hinting that Amiga Inc would go under, Genesi will own AmigaOS4 or brand, spreading weird Atari rumours, (of all people) falsely announce Garry Hare as Amiga Inc's CEO, spreading AmigaOne/OS4 FUD and misinformation (G3 Peg1 faster than G4 AOne, AmigaOS4 will not see the day of light) and yes I could continue for a while if you really want me to!
So Gary, don't you agree it is time to look towards the future instead of bickering about the past so much? There's alot to bicker about with regard to your holy Genesi as well! |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 53 of 69 | ANN.lu |
Message removed by Christoph Gutjahr for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: personal insult |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 54 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Darth_X on 09-Aug-2004 01:07 GMT | In reply to Comment 52 (AF):
Personally I find Genesi's past approach to the Amiga community unacceptable, like hinting that Amiga Inc would go under, Genesi will own AmigaOS4 or brand, spreading weird Atari rumours, (of all people) falsely announce Garry Hare as Amiga Inc's CEO, spreading AmigaOne/OS4 FUD and misinformation (G3 Peg1 faster than G4 AOne, AmigaOS4 will not see the day of light) and yes I could continue for a while if you really want me to!
Go ahead, 'continu' your witchhunt for a while. |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 55 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Darth_X on 09-Aug-2004 01:11 GMT | In reply to Comment 53 (Anonymous):
now that was just a bit rude wasn't it? |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 56 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Kronos on 09-Aug-2004 01:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 52 (AF):
AInc did take money for products that knew they couldn't deliever in a reasonable timeframe, and that they knew they couldn't pay it back. Not once but twice.
Thats inacceptable.
Hyperion (Benny the wannabe lawyer) called the competion bunch of thieves without ever giving any proove for these claims.
Eyetech did still sell cases "ready for A1" when everybody and my mom knew that the Escana-board was a dead duck.
Eyetech did sell products broken beyond repair (A1-SE) without ever offering a way to fix it at their cost.
Garry did hand out cards stating him falsly (or just premature ?) as AInc CEO, the egg in his face is all his own. |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 57 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AF on 09-Aug-2004 02:16 GMT | In reply to Comment 54 (Darth_X):
Actually I suggested to quit this childrens game as I think it should finally stop for the sake of both MorphOS and AmigaOS supporters. I only listed some facts because I wanted to show Garry that Genesi isn't holy. But as usual the same people show up to attack other points of view. Both Amiga Inc and Genesi's reputation are far from perfect.
The fact however is that Amiga Inc now has found a new owner with enough cash to also buy an interesting Finnish company and that Amiga Inc's AmigaOS4 partners Hyperion & Eyetech have good reputations. The owner situation of Genesi remains about the same it seems, of course the usual big talk, but not even enough Peg2s to satisfy a small Peg fanbase.
I am not on a witchhunt. I am trying to point out your own biases and then hopefully these people finally start to think about their own behaviour. |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 58 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 09-Aug-2004 02:25 GMT | In reply to Comment 52 (AF):
Look better:
"Club Amiga T-Shirts
Jan 4, 2003 - Amiga Inc. would like to apologise unreservedly ..."
Oh, OK, thanks for pointing that out.
Gary you are a well known Genesi advocate and strong Amiga Inc critic, but I think you should ackowledge that some people may indeed find Genesi's behaviour more worrying.
Yeah, I suppose that accounts for the arguments, doesn't it? ;-)
Like for instance that they hired tons of new people including ANN's very own Christian Kemp, while they weren't even able to pay the existing employees for quite some time. That a company runs out of cash and is unable to pay for what is obligated to pay for is one (sadly not too uncommon) thing for a startup, but to hire new people, commit to more advertisings, etc without paying in some eyes is something completely different.
As I recall, it wasn't a money problem in Christian's case that soured the job deal, but that, according to him, he was being asked to assume unreasonable personal liability and also Genesi didn't file necessary papers. As for other cases, people were being hired at a time when there was no reason not to expect the Pretory money, for example, to not continue to flow for Genesi projects. In hindsight, yes, we can say it was irresponsible for Genesi to be making offers it couldn't afford; at the time, I don't think the situation was so clear.
Personally I find Genesi's past approach to the Amiga community unacceptable, like hinting that Amiga Inc would go under,
Well, for all intents and purposes Amiga, Inc. did fail and has only been revitalized (it has, hasn't it? -- I haven't heard a peep from them other than Ray Akey) by the KMOS takeover. Tell me, with its debts and dormancy, what prospects did Amiga, Inc. have? What have they done other than lie immobile for months, waiting for "the next funding round"? I don't recall exactly what Bill Buck said, but has Amiga, Inc. was as good as dead for the last year or two.
Genesi will own AmigaOS4 or brand,
Heh. That should be a lesson in not trying speaking before the judge rules. Genesi will have to be content with the AmigaDE port, it looks like. And maybe you don't want to, but the Amiga investors apparently took Bill Buck's words seriously enough to shift the assets out of what they perceived as harm's way, as Garry Hare described.
spreading weird Atari rumours,
I don't know what rumors you heard; I only heard "what would you think if..." kinds of questions. People can come to the conclusions they like; whose responsibility is that?
falsely announce Garry Hare as Amiga Inc's CEO,
Wow, I hope we don't have to go through that again. The guy does admit passing out "Garry Hare, Amiga, Inc. CEO" cards at industry events. Now, given that, you can, with a straight face, condemn *Genesi* for messing with the truth? Hmmm.
spreading AmigaOne/OS4 FUD and misinformation (G3 Peg1 faster than G4 AOne, AmigaOS4 will not see the day of light) and yes I could continue for a while if you really want me to!
You should know that bbrv has tended to phrase things to get the maximum spin, stated hoped-for or expected outcome as a done deal, etc. I don't personally advocate all those methods, myself, but then I'm not trying to get a startup off the ground with lots of my own money either, in a market where seemingly half the prospective customers have greeted with unbridled hatred what once was to be the successor to their old systems.
So Gary, don't you agree it is time to look towards the future instead of bickering about the past so much? There's alot to bicker about with regard to your holy Genesi as well!
Absolutely, let's get on with things. The retraction by Mitch Parker was a good step in that direction by helping to clear the air about a situation that was a real black mark against the integrity of Genesi and its staff.
I don't believe for a minute that Genesi is "holy" but I do tend to speak up if someone makes a statement that I think is uncalled for. I think the Pegasos is a good product and I appreciate the job Genesi has done promoting and marketing it. I don't think all is perfect by any means, but, on the other hand, many people have tried to wring the maximum damage out of every little Genesi flaw in order to support their own beloved choice. This isn't right, either. For every one of my posts, there's a band of anonymous cowards like "gary_d" ready to argue for the sake of arguing, it seems, usually resorting to insults when they don't have anything better to offer. Yes, it is very tiresome. I try not to "attack" Amiga, Inc. just to be nasty. I hope my references to their record and so on are brought up for a reason. I'd be happy as a clam if we could put the past behind us and just get things going for the future.
-- gary_c |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 59 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AF on 09-Aug-2004 02:40 GMT | In reply to Comment 56 (Kronos):
"AInc did take money for products that knew they couldn't deliever in a reasonable timeframe, and that they knew they couldn't pay it back. Not once but twice. Thats inacceptable."
How do you know that? Maybe they had good reasons to believe cash would be rolling within a few more weeks. You state this as if you are an insider, although for as far as I can remember you always was an Amiga Inc critic, so I doubt they would tell you any insider information???
"Hyperion (Benny the wannabe lawyer) called the competion bunch of thieves without ever giving any proove for these claims."
As I recall he pointed out that in his view MorphOS is illegal because it's developers would have seen AmigaOS source code and the ABOX is far too much like AmigaOS 3.x. He also pointed out quotes of respected people like Dave Haynie who did actually say Ralph Schmidt abused AmigaOS copyrights in the past.
"Eyetech did still sell cases "ready for A1" when everybody and my mom knew that the Escana-board was a dead duck."
They found an excellent alternative and consumers are smart enough to make their own minds if they want to buy into a half finished system or not. Have you forgotten that the main benefit promoted for taking G4s through its CPU slot while in fact few ever saw such expansion kit. How about the eternal promises of an up to date version of MorphOS for classic Amigas and hype about Macintosh support. (Remember BBRV's Mac Powerbook with MorphOS background?) Again I am just trying to point out your own bias by showing you your dear Genesi isn't by any means of the holy kind.
BTW haven't heard from Escena in years. Are they dead?
"Eyetech did sell products broken beyond repair (A1-SE) without ever offering a way to fix it at their cost."
Huh? AFAIK Eyetech has an excellent reputation so far. Where's your proof?
"Garry did hand out cards stating him falsly (or just premature ?) as AInc CEO, the egg in his face is all his own."
Agreed but that's not a crime. He even made fun of it. At worst it's an error Amiga Inc did not have much of a problem with. For BBRV to make tons of false claims about having insider information at the time was just faked.
So shall the "camps" quit their children's games. At least I am getting tired of it? |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 60 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 09-Aug-2004 02:55 GMT | In reply to Comment 57 (AF):
Actually I suggested to quit this childrens game as I think it should finally stop for the sake of both MorphOS and AmigaOS supporters. I only listed some facts because I wanted to show Garry that Genesi isn't holy.
The trouble with your "facts" is that, as is typical in this kind of discussion, they aren't accurate, as I hope I indicated with some success. I imagine you were at least sincere, as opposed to some guys who deliberately post things that aren't true. But you can't come up with a semi-informed account like that and expect everyone else to go "ah, yes, the true facts."
But as usual the same people show up to attack other points of view. Both Amiga Inc and Genesi's reputation are far from perfect.
The problem is, first of all, we don't have all the pertinent information regarding something like, for example, Genesi's hiring practices. We don't know what traspired between the company and the individual. We don't know what Genesi's cash flow really was at the time. The list of unknowns goes on and on. And yet you bring the hiring practices up as one of the "facts" that reveals Genesi's true nature. Time for a little epistomology review, I'd say, or at least a Journalism 101 refresher or quick look through "Legal Claims for Idiots."
The fact however is that Amiga Inc now has found a new owner with enough cash to also buy an interesting Finnish company and that Amiga Inc's AmigaOS4 partners Hyperion & Eyetech have good reputations.
I hope you realize how partisan that description is. The new owner of Amiga, Inc. is none other than the original investors, as Garry Hare explained. Yes, they acquired that other company. We remain quite ignorant about how much money KMOS actually has for Amiga development and promotion or anything else.
While I'm not going to criticize Hyperion and Eyetech, if you've read ANN.lu for any length of time, you'll know there are, shall we say, alternative points of view to those stated by Ben Hermann from time to time. In any case, let's assume no one can take customer trust for granted.
<io>The owner situation of Genesi remains about the same it seems, of course the usual big talk, but not even enough Peg2s to satisfy a small Peg fanbase.
Well, "the usual big talk" has, I think, been muted considerably. What talk there is seems to be limited to MorphZone.org, so you'd have to go searching for it if you're not otherwise a Pegasos user. And, even while Genesi is selling to Freescale, etc., in that bigger market, we see there are Pegasos boards available these days, so I'm not sure what your point is. Seems to me Genesi is doing what it needs to do to stay financially viable. (I'll refrain from comparisons with AmigaOne "availability," suitability of the product for other markets, promotional efforts by the platform leaders, recognition by industry, etc.)
I am not on a witchhunt. I am trying to point out your own biases and then hopefully these people finally start to think about their own behaviour.
OK, but the living in glass houses rule applies. Your own contributions have not been anywhere close to neutral. Let's all pause a moment to reflect.... :-)
-- gary_c |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 61 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AF on 09-Aug-2004 02:56 GMT | In reply to Comment 58 (gary_c):
Considering you at least want to quit the witchhunt against Amiga Inc I won't argue on all your points and we would probably still be pointing fingers tomorrow, while wanting to stop the bullshit. ;-)
"but has Amiga, Inc. was as good as dead for the last year or two."
Maybe? So? They made the right decision to partner with companies who work their butts off! Why should I care if 3rd party contracters do most of the work?
"You should know that bbrv has tended to phrase things to get the maximum spin"
I dislike his approach. His methods have hurt the Amiga market and reputation of the Amiga community as a whole.
"I think the Pegasos is a good product and I appreciate the job Genesi has done promoting and marketing it."
Yep bPlan had an excellent team of developers and so does Mai Logic. I disagree that Genesi did a good job at promoting and marketing the products in general. The eyecandy at events seemed pretty good though.
"Absolutely, let's get on with things."
Great! |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 62 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by AF on 09-Aug-2004 03:03 GMT | In reply to Comment 60 (gary_c):
"The trouble with your "facts" is that, as is typical in this kind of discussion, they aren't accurate"
OK, I see this is going nowhere.
"The problem is, first of all, we don't have all the pertinent information regarding something like"
But you guys seem to talk in a way as if you know all the Amiga Inc facts and insider information. Do you really do not see how biased you are yourselves?
I will be man enough to first back off from this most useless bickering. Last post! |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 63 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 09-Aug-2004 04:53 GMT | In reply to Comment 62 (AF):
"The trouble with your "facts" is that, as is typical in this kind of discussion, they aren't accurate"
OK, I see this is going nowhere.
Well, things do slow down when claims have to be substantiated. Nobody's going to accept a partisan summary as neutral when it isn't. It's really tedious to go over and over old news, but I have a hard time resisting when the descriptions don't strike me as accurate or fair.
"The problem is, first of all, we don't have all the pertinent information regarding something like"
But you guys seem to talk in a way as if you know all the Amiga Inc facts and insider information. Do you really do not see how biased you are yourselves?
I don't know what you mean by "you guys." I can only speak for myself. I only know about Amiga, Inc. what I read on the web, basically. And I never claimed not to have a bias, although I hope I can see the reasons for my choice clearly, without undue self-deception. As I said, I recognize that my choice isn't perfect, either, but obviously we have different interpretations of things or give different weight to things depending on who or what is involved.
I will be man enough to first back off from this most useless bickering. Last post!
OK.
-- gary_c |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 64 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 09-Aug-2004 06:47 GMT | In reply to Comment 51 (gary_c):
> Similarly, Matt Parsons publically apologized
Matt Parsons?! I think you're getting people confused here :-o |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 65 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 09-Aug-2004 12:12 GMT | In reply to Comment 64 (Fabio Alemagna):
Wow, you're right. Where did that come from? :-). Sorry, sometimes my brain makes weird substitutions. ;-)
-- gary_c |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 66 of 69 | ANN.lu |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 67 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Darth_X on 10-Aug-2004 04:26 GMT | In reply to Comment 66 (Andreas Wolf):
do they owe anyone money? |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 68 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 10-Aug-2004 05:40 GMT | In reply to Comment 67 (Darth_X):
Escena:
a) are in Montana getting medical treatment on advice from horse-riding friend
b) are making products but promised all sales to FreeScale
c) are at management-training camp after selling their IP and then their company to the people who owned it in the first place
d) need to find a buyer for 10,000 boards before production can start
e) can no longer finance production with funds from now-defunct Air Italia security guard company
f) .... ?
-- gary_c |
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| Apology accepted! : Comment 69 of 69 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by gary_c on 10-Aug-2004 05:42 GMT | In reply to Comment 68 (gary_c):
That should've been a "Lufthansa" security company.
-- gary_c |
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