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[Unmoderated] Stuff that worries meANN.lu
Posted on 16-Aug-2004 22:03 GMT by oGALAXYo8 comments
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I (oGALAXYo) like to flame ahead with some stuff that bothers me for a while ... ... I am following this community for quite some while now and the only things that I have discovered so far is that 2 very hatred groups are trying everything to kill the last bits of the remaining bits of the Amiga community by verbal attacks, defamation and the worst stuff I've seen.

After all these months I am playing with the thoughts to maybe leave the MorphOS community again (this means the entire Amiga community). But all this will be decided once I am back from my vacation from greece (21.08.2004 - 25.09.2004).

I've been a bit worried about the future of MorphOS, the silence around it, the development material there exist and the applications that people write an offer. But basicly this isn't a MorphOS issue per se since the OS is quite cool it's more the remaining normal developers who work on Amiga, AROS and MorphOS stuff, the lack of standards, the lack of scientific work on software which bothers me.

Please allow me to write ahead and please do not feel insulted or offended but I think that writing this one time is necessary for people to understand the problems that I see and the keyproblems we need to work on.

We all know that Amiga has stagnated for many years and that we also lost quite a lot of powerful real developers. People who nowadays do professional work on either Linux, Windows, MacOS or wherever and what remains nowadays are a handful of people with different skills, different ideals, different views and different approaches of doing things. From most people that I met in the past months I can say that they are some sort of 'one person rambos' lack of co-operation, lack of teamwork, lack of professionalism, unwillingness for a change for the future and the better, strange attempts of software design. This is not because of their skills or something. I think it might be a bit lack of manpower or coordination because there is so much that needs to be done but not many people are available who are willing to do all the work. Then money and private life is also an issue.

Problem with AmigaOS are the people, so many "experts", so many "know it betters", so many hatred conversations, so many different views, impossible to even talk, convince or having these people accept compromises or work in teams to achive a goal faster and better, things to be re-invented 20000 times, 20 types of the same approach and all 20 suck more or less ... And here are the core problems I think.

I stare on this architecture, looking back to my good old Amiga days and I sit here asking myself why I waste my time with all this and this community.

Let's switch over to the open source world for one moment. See at the KDE architecture. People found together, creating a nice framework, where you build your tools on it and when you look behind the IRC names of these people you mostly find physicans, computer scientists, people with a doctor title, normal users, some companies who back the stuff up with financial money, hardware, resources so people can work on and can keep motivated working on it. People with a clear idea and clear roadmap how things have to look. Due to the perfect framework like mimesystem, like vfs layer, like object system, like component system, unified toolkit, themes and so on you are able to write powerful applications for all types of areas, sound, video, 3d, graphic, unified window creating, unified components like toolbars, menus, etc..

On Amiga (specially MorphOS now) we are trying to convince people to go for one GUI system which here is MUI and we try to convince people to write proper code, re-usable code and so on and follow some sort of styling guide for the applications.

But I also noticed that many of these suggestions are not paid the attention that it really requires. I see people using different Toolbar classes for a MUI application which makes the applications behave differently and less pleasing when using them, I realize that people use different entries for Menu. e.g. Some use Quit in their first Menu entry, and some use Quit in their last Menu entry, some have About in their first Menu entry some in the last and so on. Also noticed that different applications have different keysequences for the same thing which totally confuses people. Then again some apps look like they are blown together in a hurry and their GUI looks like that as well. Different padding for button, some apps come even with own colorschema for MUI, or own different Font for the Buttons or the GUI itself when loading these apps and normal apps they do look differently even if they use the same GUI system. Looking at the translations (catalog) files is also painful by times where you see some people translate "wallpaper" with "tapete" or "hintergrund" e.g. using multiple different terminology for the same thing which only increases the glossary unnecessarily. Also a problem is having people do their own 20 ways of reading and storing configurations which then appear in either PROGDIR: S: ENVARC: then some of them are plain textfiles, some of them are tooltypes some of them iff files and so on and this is plain insane and not something that is visionaire for the future. Also some Toolbar elements are in IFF, others in PNG, others in GIF ... different graphicans and different look of these things make the entire use of the apps unpleasing. Different own custom routines for doing stuff rather than using what's offered by the system, hacks, half solutions and so on.

Stuff that worries me : Comment 1 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by oGALAXYo ( on 16-Aug-2004 20:05 GMT
I know there are plenty of people here who say how much Linux sucks and yes, not everything there is on Linux makes sense but there are plenty of areas where people at least try to work together, finding compromises, trying to implement standards, trying to agree on some junk like common classes, objects, types, styles, translation and so on but on the Amiga architecture this seem to be not possible. And it looks like that this way has been proven to be a nice way and the correct way to go because it finds more and more acceptance. A good framework, good development material (documents), people who agree on a vision, using what's offered by the architecture etc. makes it possible to write powerful applications. With powerful applications I don't mean yet another pron viewer or texteditor, we need powerful programs to get work done such as textsystems, scientific and educational programs, entertainment programs and so on but these apps need to be writen and based on scientific work and not halfassed hacking, this means that these programms should follow some styling guide rules, follow some RFC's, standards, they should embedd into the system nicely and behave, operate and communicate correctly with the users.

This somehow totally lacks on the Amiga and it's certainly sure that this is reflected to the current situation of the hatred communities, lack of developers and lack of teamwork and cooperation. A lot of people simply fear the changes and some even say how much they like their old 1995 written programs or something like that, while the competition on Open Source is moving ahead adopting all types of technologies, standards and so on. We urgently need to step in their path and do the same as sad it sounds. I saw that some people already ported nice things to MorphOS but some stuff explodes the good means of the porters because they start to get 'creative' with what they do. E.g. when you port a library which is crossplattform compatible then many people forget that these libraries have some sort of frozen API (that is an API specially made for a certain version, which should be kept untouched or unchanged). Unfortunately after the port people start to become creative and mess around in it, duing huge changes of the API, the internal code, the include files and so on and you wonder that application XYZ which seamless compile on Linux or Windows complains about missing headers on MorphOS (again this is not MorphOS specific only a problem with the ported library done by someone else).

These things we must work on and get rid off and it's urgently required that we work on these things as soon as even possible before we continue writing new stuff for it because it doesn't make sense to hack yet another pile of junk together which doesn't follow any standards, rules, guide lines, standard classes etc.

I don't really know at the moment. There are also other things (mostly development related) that worries me, when I look back to Amiga and how I coded 1995 and how I am coding today 2004 (and then all the improved systems and the scientific approach that people are trying on Linux or MacOSX or whatever).

We need to change here as well, we must improve here and I don't really know how this should go specially when I tried to talk with different people who simply cut my word in my mouth even before being able to finish the sentence or making foolish jokes about the stuff I try to say because they don't fucking know what I am talking about.

Amiga is indeed a nice architecture and I do believe in the people to be able to do better and the MorphOS team (the internal developers now) are demonstrating it at the moment the same goes for the AmigaOS core developers who of course follow a vision and try to be as consistent as even possible with a polished GUI, with some rules and styles etc. But what we need here is to reach the other developers as well. It is important to not just think for your own sake, please also think for the future of your beloved architecture that you are working for and the people and users who want to use your stuff. I am tired of people cooking their own soup and play the one man rambo army. Either we sit together on one table and work something out for the better of this community or we'd better head off stop wasting our time here and work on something with future.

Comments are welcome.
Stuff that worries me : Comment 2 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 ( on 16-Aug-2004 20:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (oGALAXYo):
Have a nice holiday! :-)
Stuff that worries me : Comment 3 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by oGALAXYo ( on 16-Aug-2004 20:07 GMT
I had to cut the editorial into 2 parts, the main stuff on the page and the first comment. So what you read is one flow.
Stuff that worries me : Comment 4 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous ( on 16-Aug-2004 20:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (oGALAXYo):
another useless bashing about powersdl.library. If you do not want to understand the shared library concept of amigaos/morphos and if you do not want to accept that amigaos/morphos is not a operating system which DOESN'T bases on open source distribution and therefore statically linking SDL into a binary compared to dynamically loading a external SDL library BIG SUXX then you just DIDN'T GOT IT. Simple fact!
Stuff that worries me : Comment 5 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by oGALAXYo ( on 16-Aug-2004 20:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Hello Tokai (Anonymous),

This has nothing to do with powersdl.library in particular and is only one minor thing of the whole problem I saw and trying to describe. I know the shared library system of AmigaOS very well and I am all for it. But using shared libraries doesn't necessarily mean that you need to blow up existing frozen API. I would be thankful if you try to understand the problems I described as a whole and not bash on some minor thing of the whole cake that I present.
Stuff that worries me : Comment 6 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin ( on 16-Aug-2004 21:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (oGALAXYo):
Blow up what ?
Please give an exemple.
Stuff that worries me : Comment 7 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X (Registered user) on 16-Aug-2004 23:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Is that you tokai?
Stuff that worries me : Comment 8 of 8ANN.lu
Posted by Darth_X (Registered user) on 16-Aug-2004 23:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Nicolas Sallin):
@Nicolas Sallin

Are you still in charge of tech support for MorphOS?
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