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[Forum] State of the Nation?ANN.lu
Posted on 18-Aug-2004 23:07 GMT by SteveH46 comments
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For those of us that have since lost track of the whole business, could someone well-informed (think hard before replying - does this term really apply to you?) give a succinct and scholarly breakdown of how far the AmigaOne / OS4 project is from completion?
State of the Nation? : Comment 1 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Aug-2004 21:46 GMT
The only people "well informed" enough to comment are not going to, so your question is not going to produce any useful answers.

As you can see.
State of the Nation? : Comment 2 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-Aug-2004 22:19 GMT
Noone qualified to answer your question visits this or any other Amiga site. Though I'm sure some very unqualified individuals will give a try at answering your question.
State of the Nation? : Comment 3 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Sammy Nordström on 18-Aug-2004 23:10 GMT
When it's done.

Sorry, couldn't resist. =)
State of the Nation? : Comment 4 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 18-Aug-2004 23:19 GMT
I'm just a blow in the wind...
State of the Nation? : Comment 5 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Wayne Dresing, PhD on 18-Aug-2004 23:54 GMT
Oh Hi there my fellow Amigan friends!

Which do you want first, the good news or the bad news?

The reason you are not hearing from Mai Logic is because they are coming close to packing it. Only time will tell in the next few months whether the design team can pull off producing new chipsets or not. Mai's parent company can only support a delinquent subsidiary for so long.. No one, except Eyetech is commercializing their chipsets. And only selling a few thousand chipset will run a company for so long. How long?

Earlier, an intriguing hardware designer herself, JoannaK, mentioned that Mai should focus on the PCI Express Articia chipset and she is spot on there! The race is on to beat the clock before time expires and Mai's parent company pulls the plug. Will they do it?

Notice how I said commercializing and not industrializing? So far industrializing of Mai's chipsets has not gone well either. Chipsets for the industrial market have to go through even more rigorous testing. Notice the difference between IBM's POWER4 and PPC970 architecture?
State of the Nation? : Comment 6 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 00:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Wayne Dresing, PhD):
Doomy, the poster asked for someone who's well informed...

In other news, Microsoft is expected to close their doors at the end of this month. CEO Bill Gates was quoted as saying, "we did OK for about 25 years, but I guess those Linux guys got us good. Good luck guys!"
State of the Nation? : Comment 7 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by steve-o^ on 19-Aug-2004 01:45 GMT
Gone, like a fart in the wind.
State of the Nation? : Comment 8 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 19-Aug-2004 03:22 GMT
I thought OS4 had been released? I stopped following it.
State of the Nation? : Comment 9 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 19-Aug-2004 03:47 GMT
Didn't Ben Hermans say "End of August at latest" in his Amiwest interview, and then 4.1 to follow in "6-9 months tops".

Just two more weeks, then.
State of the Nation? : Comment 10 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 03:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Lando):
I think you mean the update? The consumer version is sheduled for around the end of this year. But actually will be released "When it's done!".
State of the Nation? : Comment 11 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 04:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Anonymous):
Prerelease MK2? omg
State of the Nation? : Comment 12 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 19-Aug-2004 05:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
This has always been the idea. Why wait until "everything" is done to release updates that are ready now? Especially since probably a large percentage of the potential AmigaOne userbase already has the board and the OS and fixes are or will be available for problems that have been reported. (I think MorphOS users also wouldn't mind an incremental update sometime before the 1.5 release.)

-- gary_c
State of the Nation? : Comment 13 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Aug-2004 05:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Wayne Dresing, PhD):
Unsubstanciated rumors. The poster asked for well informed people, not lame ass trolls.

The problem is, he's unlikely to get an awnser on that question here on ann.lu, his best bet would be to contact both Eyetech & hyperion directly.
State of the Nation? : Comment 14 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Aug-2004 05:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (T_Bone):
The pre-release has been released, the finished os hasn't, because it's not finished yet.
State of the Nation? : Comment 15 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Aug-2004 05:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Lando):
The August mark was for an update to be released for the prerelease iirc.
State of the Nation? : Comment 16 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 19-Aug-2004 05:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
MOS 1.0
MOS 1.1
MOS 1.2
...

Pot, Kettle, Black
State of the Nation? : Comment 17 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Aug-2004 05:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (gary_c):
> This has always been the idea.

Not always, for a long time the idea was to release *nothing* until everything was ready and tested; "you only get one chance to make a first impression" ...

:-P
State of the Nation? : Comment 18 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Aug-2004 05:32 GMT
... anyway, seeing in what state the OS4 is in right now, I would be very surprized if they manage to release a final, full blown end-user OS before the end of this year. The only way I see that happen is if they move certain things from the 4.0 feature list to the 4.1 list.
State of the Nation? : Comment 19 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 19-Aug-2004 05:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (takemehomegrandma):
Oh yeah, I forgot about that. :-)

-- gary_c
State of the Nation? : Comment 20 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Eva on 19-Aug-2004 06:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Lando):
Didn't Ben Hermans say "End of August at latest" in his Amiwest interview, and then 4.1 to follow in "6-9 months tops".
__________

No, he said "Febrary 2002"

PS LOL I cannot resist
State of the Nation? : Comment 21 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 19-Aug-2004 06:48 GMT
The well informed beta testers are under NDA, so they will not tell you how far along things are. What has been said by several people is that a lot of progress has been made since mid-April, when the pre-release was frozen.

As for the hardware, Eyetech have announced products which they hope to produce if the economics are right. Only Eyetech know the state of that, and they are not telling.

Progress at MAI is obviously a factor. Those chips are extremely complex, and there will be a long haul from "it mostly works" to "every part of the chip works exactly as it should."

Remember that if a thing is not yet finished, nobody knows what hidden problems are still lurking, which might take months to solve. A nasty problem can emerge at the last minute. Hence "another two weeks".
State of the Nation? : Comment 22 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 19-Aug-2004 06:53 GMT
"For those of us that have since lost track of the whole business, could someone well-informed (think hard before replying - does this term really apply to you?) give a succinct and scholarly breakdown of how far the AmigaOne / OS4 project is from completion?"

Even if anyone answers (and it includes Amiga Inc, Eyetech, Hyperion as well) you should not trust it, unless it's just a vague "When it's ready".
State of the Nation? : Comment 23 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 19-Aug-2004 07:10 GMT
To all the people that have enough time to ask questions like the one that created this thread:

Please spend your time working on AmigaOS, coding, testing, doing music, web design... Everything !

Thanks you.
State of the Nation? : Comment 24 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Aug-2004 08:12 GMT
As far as I know. (I'm otside observer, mainly, nowdays)

AmigaOne
A1SE: production cycle ended
A1XE: gone through at least three revision, produced per request if not stopped totally
miniA1: developer version released, MK3(?) end user release date unknown
A1CX: will replace XE, not in production yet, most likely not during this year

AOS4
4.0prebeta A1: released (very feature limited), update in the works, SW base slowly growing, compatibility slowly enchancing
4.0 final CSPPC and A1: release date not set, "when it's done"
4.0 boingbag1: releasedate not set
4.1: releasedate not set, features not fully desided yet
State of the Nation? : Comment 25 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Aug-2004 08:22 GMT
Latest AOS4 status can be gathered from here (9 Jun):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1496
and here (~25 Jul):
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1617
and
www.intuitionbase.com
State of the Nation? : Comment 26 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 19-Aug-2004 09:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (priest):
> A1XE: ... if not stopped totally

It looks like that is the case IMHO.

> miniA1: developer version released, MK3(?) end user release date unknown

Why does September ring a bell? Wasn't it Ben Hermans who said that?

> A1CX: will replace XE, not in production yet, most likely not during this
> year

I don't think there will be a point in releasing any of the mini A1 or the A1CX unless they uses one of the new (vapor since several years) northbridges from MAI. Perhaps that is what Eyetech is waiting for too ...?
State of the Nation? : Comment 27 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 19-Aug-2004 10:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (takemehomegrandma):
" I don't think there will be a point in releasing any of the mini A1 or the A1CX unless they uses one of the new (vapor since several years) northbridges from MAI. Perhaps that is what Eyetech is waiting for too ...?"

IMO: It is not sensible wait for anything from MAI, except if something else (AOS4 final, perhaps the best OS Artisia/MAI can ever wish for anymore) is worthwhile as well. Perhaps that's the case.

Or, perhaps miniA1 MK3 will have the security chip from Sony and it is being waited for...


When time passes, for no matter what reasons, there might be new more lucrative northbridge partners, sure.
State of the Nation? : Comment 28 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 11:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Don Cox):
>The well informed beta testers are under NDA, so they will not tell you how >far along things are. What has been said by several people is that a lot of >progress has been made since mid-April, when the pre-release was frozen.

The pre-release was frozen long before mid-April, AFAIK.
State of the Nation? : Comment 29 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 11:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Anonymous):
Except for bug fixes...
State of the Nation? : Comment 30 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Johan on 19-Aug-2004 12:34 GMT
One thing I personally find interesting is that AmigaOS4.0 will be so much more than it where said it would be, and also that it seems MorphOS1.5 (or whatever it will be called) won't be released for quite some time. Will this mean AmigaOS will actually catch up and even go further than MorphOS? Will be interesting to see, allthought I would of course prefer if there was a speed up of MorphOS development, and maybe even more importantly more useness/advertisment/movement for it. On sites like osnews people seem interested in SkyOS, and some people are probably looking for alternative OS which aren't UNIX based (yeah, it should be quite a few of those aswell, sure UNIX works, but it's not revolutionary or new inventions), so with a "complete" and working OS you might actually have a small chance to get people interested in it, allthought I suppose people would care more if it was a new cool os instead of an old AmigaOS-lookalike.
State of the Nation? : Comment 31 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 19-Aug-2004 12:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Johan):
"On sites like osnews people seem interested in SkyOS, and some people are probably looking for alternative OS which aren't UNIX based "

Do you think so? My impression is that the current attitude is that if it isn't based on Unix, it isn't an operating system.
State of the Nation? : Comment 32 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 13:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Wayne Dresing, PhD):
MAi is much bigger than Genesi. So I'm sure you shoukld worried about Genesi going down,. not MAI.
State of the Nation? : Comment 33 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 13:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
Update to the pre-release. Itä's just good they are going to release update for those who hjave pre-release. There has been lot'äs of progress since pre-release was released.
State of the Nation? : Comment 34 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 13:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (takemehomegrandma):
Have you reallse seen what the stae is right now ? i think you haven't.
State of the Nation? : Comment 35 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 19-Aug-2004 14:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Anonymous):
Genesi has working products available, and are selling them. MAI has not and does not. But MAI is backed by a big company and has been allowed to play freely and not make any money. But for how long?
State of the Nation? : Comment 36 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill on 19-Aug-2004 19:12 GMT
As of AmiWest 2004 here is the state of things as I remember them.

Eyetech is getting ready to release stuff in October, Russ was vague about what it was exactly but I will guess it's going to be the MicroA1 (MiniITX system) for around $700 USD (this is my guess! no one knows what it will be yet).

Ben stated at AmiWest 2004 that the update to the pre-release will come out around the end of August. I'm guessing the update will include the PPC versions of the P96/graphics lib, USB support and more of the system running PPC. Ben mentioned the hardest part is drawing the line when to stop adding new stuff because development is so active.

Ben said they are pushing hard for OS4 this year. I'll guess the CSPPC version and the AmigaOne version will ship damn near the same time.

Garry said they are going to keep quiet "till they have stuff" then they will "shout it from the roof tops". The main focus will be releasing the AmigaDE product and focus on getting OEM deals in Asia/China. Garry also said more then once the importance of good developer support, I don't think anything public has happened yet to address that.


More of my comments. I don't really see the point in Eyetech building new AmigaOne badged hardware till OS4 is out or very near compeletion. The longer they wait the more likely they will get the next cycle of hardware, faster memory, buses and processors. I know I would love a G5 based Amiga but remember the failure rates are very high on the G5 right now and Apple can't get them for there new iMac. If Apple can't get them we won't for a long while yet. It's also clear that when Eyetech do make a new machine it will be MiniITX with a Micro-ATX coming later, there was a MicroA1 running on the my hardware booth at AmiWest, tight little machine. On a side note I was at Fry's today and they had VIA processor based mini-itx systems ~1ghz for $130, we might not get the price point but we will get the performance. In summary if your just looking in to the Amiga after many years go back to sleep, you'll know when we are ready for your money :), if you've been holding your breath for OS4 I think you'll be able to breathe before 2005 :)

Bill "tekmage" Borsari
State of the Nation? : Comment 37 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 20-Aug-2004 06:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Bill):
> Eyetech is getting ready to release stuff in October, Russ was vague about
> what it was exactly but I will guess it's going to be the MicroA1 (MiniITX
> system) for around $700 USD (this is my guess! no one knows what it will be
> yet).

I have also heard quotes from AmiWest 2004 about the expected price for the Mini A1 to be around $1000 USD(!!), but as you say, we will only know when (if) it's finally released. They better use another Northbridge though ...
State of the Nation? : Comment 38 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 20-Aug-2004 06:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (takemehomegrandma):
If that 1000$ mark is for a full boxed machine, and not the Mobo, i'd be willing to buy it (depending on what they put in the case), but for a Mobo alone, that's insane, even for me :(

Lets wait till Eyetech releases more details.
State of the Nation? : Comment 39 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 20-Aug-2004 08:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Bill):
"Ben stated at AmiWest 2004 that the update to the pre-release will come out around the end of August. I'm guessing the update will include the PPC versions of the P96/graphics lib, USB support and more of the system running PPC. Ben mentioned the hardest part is drawing the line when to stop adding new stuff because development is so active.

Ben said they are pushing hard for OS4 this year. I'll guess the CSPPC version and the AmigaOne version will ship damn near the same time."

Unfortunately Ben's record as a predictor of release dates is not good. I would treat his "latest" dates as "earliest" dates. Then you are less likely to be disappointed.
State of the Nation? : Comment 40 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 20-Aug-2004 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Bill):
icp-epia.co.uk

A new amiga computer at that sort of pricing with tv out would be really exciting.

For consumers it is only twice the price of an amstrad emailer but does web and lots more too.

Bit like a spectrum 48 or a freeview box, a no brainer buy.

The units don`t include memory though, so that would increase the price :(

Amstrad`s strategy is to make money from services on the emailer.

John
State of the Nation? : Comment 41 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Bill on 20-Aug-2004 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (takemehomegrandma):
The exact wording was "for around the price of an Amiga 1200". I'm taking that to be the price of a new A1200 in 1992/1993 when I paid $628 USD for mine. Another thing with the MicroA1 is you only need to add about $200 USD to make it run, $50 for a case, $50 for memory, $50 for HD and $50 for a CD. Other systems would require a video card and maybe a sound card.

I agree that the price is way spendy, personally I think the sweet spot for the MicroA1 mobo would be $300. It's going to be a very long time, if ever, we see prices directly competitive with PC hardware.

As for Ben's track record he certainly has had some misses. But face it, in the software business predicting release dates is more Voodoo then science. :)
State of the Nation? : Comment 42 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 21-Aug-2004 04:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Bill):
Bill: "I'm taking that to be the price of a new A1200 in 1992/1993 when I paid $628 USD for mine. Another thing with the MicroA1 is you only need to add about $200 USD to make it run, $50 for a case, $50 for memory, $50 for HD and $50 for a CD. Other systems would require a video card and maybe a sound card. "

Ok. $928 USD:. Considering it's without Keyboard, Mouse and Monitor etc..

Closest comparable E-mac is (prebuild/installed) $799.00
1.25GHz PowerPC G4, 256MB DDR333 SDRAM, 40GB Ultra ATA drive, Combo drive (= plays DVD:s), Ati Radeon 9200, 17" CRT, Firewire, Usb 2.0. (and modem, mouse, keyboard, speakers etc... but I'd expect to use better ones anyhow)

I do agree about $300 price range for mobo+cpu, even though I fear even it would be too much for mass sales. Especially without widely accepted OS backing, it's hard to sell. For OS4 users, $300 would be real nice (especially if OS is included) and it could attract more people to test/use OS4 ..
State of the Nation? : Comment 43 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 21-Aug-2004 04:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (JoannaK):
OOps.. I need calculator (or more coffee..)

628 + 200 = 828 .. not 928 ...

Anyhow.. My point is still valid.
State of the Nation? : Comment 44 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 22-Aug-2004 01:30 GMT
unbelievable... after all this time you guys, all of you still haven't had it drilled into you ...... nothing like being thick headed huh?

The answer is:

"Two more weeks"

Duh!!!
State of the Nation? : Comment 45 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Aug-2004 10:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (3seas):
Geological time.
State of the Nation? : Comment 46 of 46ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 23-Aug-2004 05:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Bill):
Slightly wrong, it's supposed to have 256MB of memory on-board. So deduct that unless you REALLY need 512MB of memory. 512 is more than I have ever needed, even in Linux (servers not included). So I would be comfortable with 256 in OS4.
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