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[Forum] MicroAmiga available in October.ANN.lu
Posted on 28-Aug-2004 19:07 GMT by drHirudo126 comments
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After some delay, the first Next generation Amiga at affordable
price will be available at the dealers in start of October. More info is Here The suggested end user price for these boards is as follows:

µ-A1-C - gbp349/euro499/USD599 (ex VAT/sales tax)
µ-A1-I - gbp399/euro599/USD699 (ex VAT/sales tax)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 51 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 29-Aug-2004 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (marcik):
Great Britain went to war to defend Poland. Today, Britain is probably one of your true friends inside the EU. Also, if you believe anyone could do anything about Stalin in 44/45 I think you are very sadly mistaken :(

AdmV
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 52 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 29-Aug-2004 15:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (marcik):
I think you took Don's remark the wrong way there.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 53 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by marcik on 29-Aug-2004 15:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (AdmV):
> Great Britain went to war to defend Poland.

Poland had military pact with GB (and also with French), which said, that when Hitler invade Poland they we'll help Poland with all thier forces. And how does it ended? After 1 Spetember RAF were throwing flyeres saying that Hitler is evil, etc. on Germany, not bombs... British military forces that were in French didn't opened with them second front (Hitler expected that, and he wasn't mistaken). And when Stalin invaded on 17 Sep, they also did nothing (only small diplomatic note IIRC). GB went to war for real when it was attacked, not to defend Poland. Don't forget about military equipment from GB and French, that was promised in early 1930's, and never came to Poland...

> Britain is probably one of your true friends inside the EU.

I'm not saying, that Britian is not a friend of Poland (but knows for sure - in 1939, and 1945-1989 Poland also had lots of friends...), but when someone, without any clue about Poland history, says something that stupid about my country I had to react.

> Also, if you believe anyone could do anything about Stalin in 44/45 I think you are very sadly mistaken :(

Yes - who would care about small country, that stopped bolshevik invasion on west in 1920... It was easier to give it to Stalin... I'm not saying that west should attack Stalin army (it was realy powerfull). I'm only saying, that they didn't even try to take care about Poland, to gain peace with Stalin. But it's all history now. I hope that nowadays peoples can learn something from it, and they will not be saying bullshits about my country.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 54 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Aug-2004 15:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (marcik):
What that I said upset you? The previous post pointed out that incomes in Poland are lower than in the UK and maybe as low as £100 a month. I simply wondered how it is possible for anyone to buy computers on that kind of income.

There was no insult implied or written.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 55 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by marcik on 29-Aug-2004 16:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Darrin):
Maybe, but for me it sounds like - "You country suxx. How someone can have such small salaries? Do you have computers there, or are you still using abacuses? Come to GB to work, maybe you'll enrich".
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 56 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Aug-2004 16:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Amon_Re):
> I wasn't talking about ethics, i was pointing out that they too, have run into various problems

And I wasn't talking about companies running into problems but about the quality of hardware. Unfortunately, you have the reflex to bring unrelated issues into any argument.

> As for the rest of your statements, they are un factual, for starters, the µA1 isn't a MAI product

Eyetech doesn't have a hardware engineer who could design a mainboard, let alone a chip. They can not configure a manufacturing line, design a chip, provide non-trivial technical quality tests etc. But if it gives you a cozy warm feeling to think that it's an Eyetechs product and not a MAI-made product, so be it.

> and you have no technical knowledge of their chip

Do I need that knowledge to write MAI off as a second-rate design company?Their to-market time is too slow (they are still in the SD-RAM era), their products have too many problems and their ability to fix problems leaves to be desired.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 57 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Aug-2004 16:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (marcik):
That was not at all what I said. Why would I think Poland sucks? Comment 38 said you have low incomes.

Of course the economy is in a bad way, Poland had decades of Communist rule. It will take a long time to recover.

That is no criticism of the Poles. You were conquered by the Russians, who wanted a buffer zone to protect them from future German attacks.

The Poles are well known to be extremely brave fighters, but a country without mountains or sea around it is impossible to defend against invasion by a bigger country.

Nor was it possible for the Americans and British to turn around and attack the Russians in 1945. We did well to save Austria, most of Germany, Greece and Malaya from Communism. France was at risk too.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 58 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Aug-2004 16:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (Don Cox):
"The previous post pointed out that incomes in Poland are lower than in the UK and maybe as low as £100 a month."

Yep i work with nearly fifty polish ppl at work & £100 per month is about right with £200 being good pay.

They make over £230 a week no problem where i work.

They send the money home £1 is about 6 zloty
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 59 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Aug-2004 16:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Don Cox):
> That is no criticism of the Poles. You were conquered by the Russians, who wanted a buffer zone to protect them from future German attacks.

Future German attacks? Now you have offended the Germans, too ;)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 60 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Aug-2004 16:43 GMT
Humm, the latest post has nothing to do with the initial topic...

Personnaly, I think no one should forget the seond world war. People from all other Europe suffers a lot.
But, it's really time to look forward and stops this silly discussion... It was 60 years ago. what about to make peace and never forget to avoid it to come back again ?

France and Germany made war each other 3 times in less than a century, but they are not very close country.

Bye
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 61 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 29-Aug-2004 17:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (Anonymous):
"Future German attacks? Now you have offended the Germans, too ;)"

Stalin was not to know that Germany would change completely and become a peaceful country.

I don't mind offending any Germans here who are aged over 75. The younger Germans are excellent people, as are almost all Europeans nowadays. (Except members of the British National Party).

I think it is great to have Poland and the other new members in the EU. The past 15 years have been the best time ever in the history of Europe.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 62 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Fei on 29-Aug-2004 17:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Don Cox):
Oh, my! I didn't want to start the WW III with that post... Marcik, cool down. I think nobody wants to insult you.

"How is it that there are any computer owners at all in Poland? It sounds as though any computer would be too expensive."

Well, you can get a PC for about 300£ and pay for it in two-year installments, for example. Of course, some people earn more. I've been lucky so far to be among them but it means changing jobs a lot, driving around and working long hours. If you are, for example, a programmer and you find a good job, you can afford changing your hardware each year. I didn't write to complain, just to give you some other point of view on what "affordable" for people can be. The example was extreme but, unfortunately, true for more than half of folks here.

"Hopefully incomes will start to rise now that Poland is in the EU."

Yeah, for now we've had dramatic rises in food prices because of EU. Optimistic, isn't it? ;)

"How long is it before Poles can work in any country in Europe?"

No problem with going to UK. Many my friends did. But imagine - you leave your home, family and go some foreign place and usually instead of brain work you clean somebody's toilets. I wouldn't and many won't, at least as long as they get twice as much as these 100£.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 63 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by marcik on 29-Aug-2004 18:36 GMT
I want to apologize everyone. It looks I misunderstood first post (it's not difficult, when you sleep 2 hours per day...). I hope I didn't insulted anyone. I'm off to get sleep finally :)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 64 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 29-Aug-2004 19:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Don Cox):
> I don't mind offending any Germans here who are aged over 75

Last time I was at an Amiga meeting, that was the primary Amiga age group (old guys, that is ;) Anyway, the 75 year olds where the ten year old kids in 1940, I don't think they planned the invasion of Poland. But hey, keep on offending, you are very good at it.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 65 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 29-Aug-2004 20:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (marcik):
'Poland had military pact with GB (and also with French), which said, that when Hitler invade Poland they we'll help Poland with all thier forces.'

And what forces do you mistaken believe the British had that could in any way help Poland? Do you somehow thing Britain had more than a tiny army, and a barly operational defensive airforce. Almost nil in offense bombing capacity.

Just so you know something, Britain was very late getting ready for re-armarmament at all. Radar just made it into service, and the chairman of Hawker, Mr Sopwith made a very brave choice, with no orders he invested a million in a production run of 150 Hawker Hurricanes. Those Hurricanes may well have made the difference at the start of the battle of Britain. Re-armament orders started in 1936 and only started arriving in service in 37, so
I do not know what magic you think Britain had to help Poland at this stage.

' And how does it ended? After 1 Spetember RAF were throwing flyeres saying that Hitler is evil, etc. on Germany, not bombs... British military forces that were in French didn't opened with them second front (Hitler expected that, and he wasn't mistaken).'

Look, I see you have a bee in your bonnet, consider this, the British Army did'nt even have Tanks to even consider attacking the German army. I do not know what you think the British were hiding in your statements. And yes, they knew full well they could olny try a defensive battle.

'And when Stalin invaded on 17 Sep, they also did nothing (only small diplomatic note IIRC). GB went to war for real when it was attacked, not to defend Poland. Don't forget about military equipment from GB and French, that was promised in early 1930's, and never came to Poland...'

Britain declared war against an enemy of superior size, and capability. This was done in support of Poland. Many many British and commonwealth and many others went to war on that premise my friend. Do not be so quick in your sharp tongue. Britain operated as a sactuary and a home of the free for several years, perhaps the only beacon of freedom fighting left against the Nazi's. I find your ignorance ill founded, if understandable. But understand this, Britain did what it could. It had not re-armed, the Germans had started since before the Spanish civil war. You should consider that Millions of people tried to defend Poland, just because they failed does'nt make them somehow evil.

> Britain is probably one of your true friends inside the EU.

'I'm not saying, that Britian is not a friend of Poland (but knows for sure - in 1939, and 1945-1989 Poland also had lots of friends...), but when someone, without any clue about Poland history, says something that stupid about my country I had to react.'

There are many sides of Poland that are extremely sad, the warsaw uprising as a very dark example. However, that does not excuse you turning on others. Many many fought for freedom, for Poland, for other reasons. Do not assume you can rubbish other countries because of the hard times Poland has suffered. I have sympathy with you, and understand why you may feel that way.

> Also, if you believe anyone could do anything about Stalin in 44/45 I think you are very sadly mistaken :(

'Yes - who would care about small country, that stopped bolshevik invasion on west in 1920... It was easier to give it to Stalin...'

It was not given. Churchill warned the Americans about Stalin's intentions. They got it wrong, but they were told by the Russians there would be free elections. Much of this discussion is nice, but even with the best will in the world, the west did not have enough to take on soviet tank armies and the red army.

'I'm not saying that west should attack Stalin army (it was realy powerfull).'

Look, sadly, you are also asking the west to turn on its ally, no matter how misguided that turned out to be. Britain sent no little amount to Russia to try and help them fend off the Nazi's.

'I'm only saying, that they didn't even try to take care about Poland, to gain peace with Stalin. But it's all history now. I hope that nowadays peoples can learn something from it, and they will not be saying bullshits about my country.'


AdmV
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 66 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 29-Aug-2004 20:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Don Cox):
A buffer against German attacks. No, I think not. You seemingly do not understand Stalin.

AdmV
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 67 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by steve-o^ on 29-Aug-2004 22:08 GMT
£500 a week...nice. I've never topped £800 a month in my previous jobs (before tax and bills) so in all, about £400 to myself for the rest of the month. but anyone who wants to save, can ;)

As a police officer, you get £21,462p/a after training, in the UK. Not the greatest wage, but not that low either.

Would be nice being a managing director on £80k though, mind ;)

Steve =)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 68 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 30-Aug-2004 01:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (marcik):
Damn straight. Poland got shit on big time before, during and especially after WWII. I can't believe Truman and Churchill let Stalin grab Poland and keep it. After all the hell Hitler put them through to let that happen was a straight sin. I wonder how they explained it to God?

coldfire
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 69 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 30-Aug-2004 02:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (coldfire):
>After all the hell Hitler put them through to let that happen was a straight sin. I wonder how they explained it to God?

Why you think they went upstairs?
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 70 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Aug-2004 03:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (steve-o^):
OMG! A Bobby :P j/k
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 71 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 30-Aug-2004 03:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (hooligan/dcs):
Right after WWII downstairs was probably full :P
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 72 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 30-Aug-2004 06:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (coldfire):
The Americans and British were allied with Russia. Stalin agreed to democratic elections. However, Churchill told the Americans about Russian intentions, and lastly, as I have already stated, do you really believe the exausted Britain and Americans could have turned on the Russian armies while trying to deal with Japan?

Sometimes its hard to see people talking so stupidly. America and Britain gave Poland to no one, Poland was taken by Stalin, one of the great evil men of the last century.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 73 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2004 06:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Lando):
"Bullshit. Here in the UK where Eyetech is based, many people work for £130-£150 "

I don't know about people in the UK, but atleast here in the Finland even students and unemployees get more money than that. I'm sorry but I really would not even move my finger if I would need to work for something like that.

I really don't think MicroA1 is so expensive that you could not afford it. If you just think how cheap PCs are then sure MicroA1 might look expensive, but it isn't. When I bought my A1200 in 1994 it wasn't much cheaper and it was just standard A1200.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 74 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 30-Aug-2004 06:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Anonymous):
And how man units do you plan to sell outside the community based on the "but an A1200 costs more 10 years ago" ?

Yeap, 0, zero, niente, nade, null, nichts, nothing.....
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 75 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2004 06:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Anonymous):
Oh. Forget that :) here actually said 130-150 UKP / week. Not per month.

That confused me, because I thought it was per month :) That would be a bit low salary :) UK is so much bigger country so that would feel quite strange.

So yeah students here don't get 200EUR/week, I hope we would :-)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 76 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2004 06:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 74 (Kronos):
Ofcource lower the costs are more people will buy it. But both Pegasos-II and MicroA1 is too expensive for those who don't want to use any more money than what lowend PC would cost.

But if you say that noone outside Amiga community will buy MicroA1, then I can't aggree with you.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 77 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2004 07:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (Anonymous):
> but it isn't. When I bought my A1200 in 1994 it wasn't much cheaper and it was just standard A1200.

No, it isn't expensive. It really isn't expensive. It really really isn't. When I bought my ZX81 in 1981, it wasn't much cheaper and it was just a standard ZX81 [goes on mumbling]. Seriously, what is the point of quoting prices from the last milennium? You buy the board in 2004, don't be daft, compare it to the prices of 2004.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 78 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2004 08:14 GMT
My Amigas:

A500: 800€ (ready to use + 2ndFDD 170€ + 512kt mem 170€, minus monitor)
A2000: 1700€ (ready to use, minus monitor)
A4000: 2500€ (ready to use + HDD 200€, minus monitor) ( later + CS060mk2 800€ (CPU upgrade))
possibly uA1I: 1000-1200€ (built ready to use, minus monitor)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 79 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 30-Aug-2004 08:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Anonymous):
I wonder who was that. 8)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 80 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Aug-2004 08:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Anonymous):
The point was that I did have enough money to buy a computer like that which was light years behind MicroA1. You can do so much more with MicroA1.

And I bought that A1200 with money I got from summerwork.

If you can buy something like that with money you get from 2 month summerwork, then it can't be so damn expensive.

Just don't drink so much beer, don't smoke or eat so much baked rolls. Save some money every month, and soon you have enough money to buy what you want. It can't be so hard, we are not talking about huge amount of money really.

If you smoke, then have you ever thought how much money you burn ? MicroA1 is not so expensive that you could not change your life a bit so that you save money for it every month.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 81 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by steve-o^ on 30-Aug-2004 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 70 (Amon_Re):
Nah, not yet...I want to be ;)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 82 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by marcik on 30-Aug-2004 08:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (AdmV):
Ok, I sleept, understood my mistake in first post. Now I could talk about it without emotions.

> And what forces do you mistaken believe the British had that could in any way > help Poland? Do you somehow thing Britain had more than a tiny army, and a
> barly operational defensive airforce. Almost nil in offense bombing capacity.
> Just so you know something, Britain was very late getting ready for
> re-armarmament at all. Radar just made it into service, and the chairman of
> Hawker, Mr Sopwith made a very brave choice, with no orders he invested a
> million in a production run of 150 Hawker Hurricanes. Those Hurricanes may
> well have made the difference at the start of the battle of Britain.
> Re-armament orders started in 1936 and only started arriving in service in
> 37, so I do not know what magic you think Britain had to help Poland at
> this stage.

So why they gave guarantees to Poland? Polish troops expected, that second front on the west will be opened (it was part of military pact). Look at this from polish side. You were invaded, but you have guarantees from your allies. So you fight with all your forces, and wait for reactions from you allies, which never came. I perefectly understood that it was in GB interest not to invade Germans in Sep 1939, but it wasn't in polish interest for sure.

> Britain declared war against an enemy of superior size, and capability.
> This was done in support of Poland.

I couldn't agree, that support of Poland was main reason for it. GB declared war, because they know, that sooner or later they'll attack by German forces.

> Many many British and commonwealth and many others went to war on that
> premise my friend. Do not be so quick in your sharp tongue.

I was too agressive in my previous post - that's true. But'll never agree, that GB troops went to war to defend Poland.

> You should consider that Millions of people tried to defend Poland, just
> because they failed does'nt make them somehow evil.

Millions of peoples were fighting agains Nazi, not to defend Poland.

> Look, sadly, you are also asking the west to turn on its ally, no matter
> how misguided that turned out to be. Britain sent no little amount to
> Russia to try and help them fend off the Nazi's.

They forgot about their old ally, becuase of new, very powerfull one. I know it's a political decision, but it was very sad to Poland...
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 83 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 30-Aug-2004 10:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (marcik):
'So why they gave guarantees to Poland? Polish troops expected, that second front on the west will be opened (it was part of military pact). Look at this from polish side. You were invaded, but you have guarantees from your allies.'

The world had been in an economic decline in the late 20s-early 30's, and quite frankly the alliances and pacts were real, being able to really act on them was not. In any alliance, there are still limits.

'So you fight with all your forces, and wait for reactions from you allies, which never came. I perefectly understood that it was in GB interest not to invade Germans in Sep 1939, but it wasn't in polish interest for sure.'

What forces? British Mobilisation had not even started, and even in defending france were were only able to move four and then 6 divisions. If you wish to talk of the pact between France and Poland, then:

On 4 September in Paris was signed the French-Polish interpretation agreement, being an addendum to the French-Polish alliance of 1921, and to the French-Polish military convention of 19 May 1939. According to this convention the French side was under the obligation to undertake, on the fifteenth day since the general mobilization a general offensive with the forces of at least 40 divisions to support Poland. Those divisions had to break the German defence between the Rhine and Moselle, it means within a 180km wide sector, and to seize Mainz. Moreover the agreement foresaw, that the immediate reaction of the powers to the German military actions would be retaliatory strikes of French-British air forces. On top of that Great Britain promised to deliver fifteen fighter planes and one hundred modern bombers to Poland.

And under that Britain failed to deliver 15 fighters, and 100 modern bombers. The fact that Britain had no modern bomber aircraft is I suppose besides the point. 90% of the Polish Airforce was destroyed on the first day, it is not logical to assume that the 2000 aircraft Poland started with would somehow have been turned into an effective force even with this. Now, in terms of France, they built themselves into a defensive force based around their Maginot line, for all the good it did them. Britain attacked German shipping and ran blockades, declared war against Germany. Britain was not ready for war with Germany.

> Britain declared war against an enemy of superior size, and capability.
> This was done in support of Poland.

'I couldn't agree, that support of Poland was main reason for it. GB declared war, because they know, that sooner or later they'll attack by German forces.'

No, Britain declared war because Germany invaded Poland. You should note carefully that Hitler tried on several occasions to offer Peace with Britain and WAS always refused.

> Many many British and commonwealth and many others went to war on that
> premise my friend. Do not be so quick in your sharp tongue.

'I was too agressive in my previous post - that's true. But'll never agree, that GB troops went to war to defend Poland.'

Sorry it on record that and I quote 'As to the war in the air, it started on 4 September 1939 with the British raid on German ships anchored in Wilhelmshaven and Brunsbuttel, after which RAF was mostly busy with dropping leaflets over Germany.'

The RAF really did not have any startling capability. Perhaps they could do more or less.

> You should consider that Millions of people tried to defend Poland, just
> because they failed does'nt make them somehow evil.

'Millions of peoples were fighting agains Nazi, not to defend Poland.'

War was declared against Germany for invading Poland. Thus , it was done in defense of Poland.

'They forgot about their old ally, becuase of new, very powerfull one. I know it's a political decision, but it was very sad to Poland...'

The allies thought Stalin would allow elections, and behave differently than he did. The cold war was a direct result and an indicator about how wrong the west was about him. It was not intentional, and it was not wanted, planned, desired, acceptable. Despite the advantage of nuclear weapons the west spent the entire cold war in fear of Russian Tank armies, and Rocket forces arrayed against them. Anyone who thinks the fall of eastern europe and the way it went as being deliberate is off their rocker.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 84 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 30-Aug-2004 10:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (marcik):
You also ignore the fact that Britain could have JOINED Germany instead.

Hitler always insisted that Britain was not Germany's natural enemy (his words, not mine) and hoped that the British Empire would have melded with Germany to form a new world order. Don't forget, Queen Victoria was half German and had been married to a German. The motto below the feathers on the Prince of Wales' emblem is not Welsh - it's German for "I Serve". Fortunately for the rest of the world, we had a different opinion and were not having any of it so despite being virtually unarmed as a result of not engaging in a productive rearmament plan after the "War To End All Wars" and suffering from economic hardship (again from the previous war), we decided to "do the right thing".

At the end of WW2 there were a lot of American and British politicians and military who saw the threat from the Soviet block and wanted to take what was left of the German army and attack Stalin and force him back to Russia. Unfortunately the world was "weary" of war by now and any opportunity to bring it to an end was taken (A bit like the first Gulf War - we never seem to learn). It is also probable that nobody expected the "Iron Curtain" to descend over Europe as it did or that countries like Poland would be oppressed the way they were. The fact that Poland (and others) were left to this fate was disgusting, but don't try and blame the whole thing on the Brits. We did more than our fare share and, for some considerable time, the Empire stood alone as the only hope for freedom in Europe. We even had to engage and sink what was left of the French Navy off Africa to stop them handing the ships over to Germany!!!

I've always though that one of the reasons the Polish people were so quick to support the USA, UK and Aussies in this last war was because they know what it is like to be forced to live in fear under a brutal oppressor. This is something quite a few countries in the West have forgotten about as the last couple of generations have never had to experience it.

OK, I'm off my soapbox now. I'm going to watch "A Bridge Too Far" on DVD. My heart always goes out to the Polish General played by Gene Hackman. I love the part where his walks up to the RAF Officer who wants to drop him and his men miles from the target, looks him over closely and says "Sorry, I just wanted to check which side you are on!".
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 85 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Aug-2004 11:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (Anonymous):
"The point was that I did have enough money to buy a computer like that which was light years behind MicroA1. You can do so much more with MicroA1."

Can you? It seems to me that you can do less. Of course, it is (or will be) faster and accepts more RAM, both of which are important.

But you can't genlock it, it doesn't accept simple switches on the mouse port, it doesn't run several important Amiga programs, there is no video editing software. I would say it is three steps forward and two back.

Some of the missing features will be provided by the new Catweasel, and others by future software improvements (I hope). As of now, the price of about half that of an A3000 or A4000 seems about right.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 86 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 30-Aug-2004 12:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 85 (Don Cox):
I disagree. (aka "I have a loaded comment here, and I'm not afraid to post it").

You can hook up as many switches as you want on USB or a serial port (shock, horror. People actually do this on PCs, you know). And modern mice has switches, they have MORE switches than the Amiga EVER had. Why can't you just use those? Do you HAVE to have access to them without going through a mouse driver? AmigaInput will give you the controls you need if you wish to use a standard mouse as base for your hardware.
Genlock? Duh, that's a pretty specific target market. I imagine you could sell at least 5 of those a year, right? Not worth the hassle. I don't need one, 99% of my friends don't need one (we've reached the stage where it's easier to decode the CVBS, store it in a file, overlay text in our own tempo and then re-encode it to CVBS after we're done). CVBS/S-video grabber cards are like 20EUR a piece. CPU is abundant.

Amiga applications? Those are obsolete. Ages ago. If we can't come up with a better application for most of those things then we are SO screwed. Yes, the average consumer would roll his eyes and leave before you got past the first set of screendumps, you would never get him to see that that crappy looking user interface is useful. And so on. Yes, I know you're gonna bite that bait ;-)

Now, that's what _I_ think. The difference between me and you being that I see that not many except Don Cox would pay extra for a genlockable video port, a non-standard mouse and ability to run decades old software. Seriously, things like that might appeal to YOU and ME, but they won't appeal to most people.

Lack of video editing software is a good one. So, the A1000 had video editing software when it was released, did it? Didn't think so. It's a lack of software, it's not a lack of hardware. Video editing software in 2004 generally means MPEG(1|2|4) or DV in files on a server. So you need a way to capture (SDI or IEEE1394 input), but not necessarily on every workstation. And then you need a way to process, but that is just software. Instead of bitching about lack of it, maybe you should contribute? Nah, that would be productive, wouldn't it?

You would rather use an A4000 than an A1? Ok, fine. Use it. But stop moaning and bitching about lack of dipswitches and whatnot. It's all there if you bother looking for it. And broadcast from now on does NOT mean analogue audio and video, it means AES and SDI. Making a killer board that can do analogue syncing in 2004 seems like QUITE a waste. The old Amigas aren't even CLOSE to following PAL or NTSC specs, they are just close enough to be used with a TV. Try to convert the signals into SDI and you'll see it's completely fucked up. I suspect something like 95% of modern "TV out" from gfx cards is no better. So it's not going to be used in a professional setup. If it isn't good enough for the pros, it's not going to sell to the wannabes either.

I would go the other way, buy an SDI grabber/generator card (for maximum quality, or use IEEE394 if I could live with compression) and do processing inside the computer. Which is how the professionals do it. For a very good reason.

Of course, I work in the broadcast business, so I might be slightly biased here ;-)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 87 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Fei on 30-Aug-2004 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 80 (Anonymous):
"The point was that I did have enough money to buy a computer like that which was light years behind MicroA1. You can do so much more with MicroA1."

Yes, it WAS. But now we have 2004 and computers evolved a bit since '81, don't you think? Your ZX was then a hi-tech machine (as for desktop). MicroA1 is just a toy compared to hi-tech desktop machines nowadays. Nice for playing but not much use for serious things. Of course, a hobby is a good thing but I know many less expensive and more exciting hobbies than testing developer exhibits with systems in perpetual beta state. Especially those in which you actually meet other people and have good time together. There are many such and I don't necessarily mean drinking.

"And I bought that A1200 with money I got from summerwork."

Yeah, and I bought my A4000 with PPC for such a tremendous sum of cash that could have bought me a pretty decent car. But I didn't want it back then. I was a student, not much to worry about, no family to think of, no job to maintain. It was fun then and I've never considered that money wasted. I had a wonderful time with it but it's gone now. Like a favourite bike you get for your 4th birthday. A dream machine for a child but would you use it now?

"If you can buy something like that with money you get from 2 month summerwork, then it can't be so damn expensive."

My first post here was to show those of you that it is not cheap for everyone. Why should you bother about some poor bastards from a country named Poland or something like that? You see, UK users alone will not make Eyetech live long and prosper. You need more users from other countries. For some of whom this piece of hardware is more than 8 months of work. It'd require quite a summer...

"MicroA1 is not so expensive that you could not change your life a bit so that you save money for it every month."

But what for? I tried to convince myself to buy it once. I did the same with Pegasos (even had one for testing for an Amiga portal I write for). And I simply don't see a point. The system may be a great step ahead compared to good, old Worbench but other systems have evolved too. I remember laughing at W95 and 98, what pieces of junk they were. But now we have XP. Yeah, sure it is evil Microsoft but it doesn't crash or hang that often. You have differend flavours of Linux, if you like (I don't but that's not the point here). But there's no decent browser (which is a software I use the most), there's no decent word processor (which is a software I use the second most). Why should I save for A1? When I sold my A4000, I had a choice to wait with the money I got (quite a sum, it was a lucky sale ;) and buy something new. I decided not to wait and bought a digital camera instead (they were expensive back then). If I chose otherwise, I'd be very angry now. Two years have passed and all I read at portals is "next year". There's always some "next year", I assume.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 88 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Fei on 30-Aug-2004 14:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (Darrin):
Hey, people! Why do you talk about events which happened long before we were born?

"My heart always goes out to the Polish General played by Gene Hackman."

Oh, I remember that. He even tried to speak Polish, which was quite amusing ;).
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 89 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Aug-2004 14:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (Olegil):
"Seriously, things like that might appeal to YOU and ME, but they won't appeal to most people."

It's people like you and me who will buy Amigas if anyone does. "Most people" will never go near them. Only those who are prepared to experiment, use non-standard hardware, and generally do something other than just sit back and enjoy the "rich experience" of Windows are going to be interested.

Therefore the more experimental and weird ports it has the better, the more help for software developers the better.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 90 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 30-Aug-2004 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (Olegil):
"Of course, I work in the broadcast business, so I might be slightly biased here ;-)"

I guess you're not going to be impressed then when I say I'm so happy with my Radion All-In-Wonder 9200, Arcsoft Showbiz and a DVD burner to do my video editing/creating ;-)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 91 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 31-Aug-2004 00:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 87 (Fei):
and by your own reasoning wht MicroA1 differ from Pegasos!?
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 92 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by coldfire on 31-Aug-2004 01:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (AdmV):
England may have been exhausted but the US was just hitting it's stride at the end of WWII. At wars end US Naval Yards were producing an aircraft carrier per week, there were battleships under construction, one 90% complete, that dwarfed the largest current battleships. Aircraft of all types were being produced faster than pilots could be trained to fly them. Patton and other American Generals were spoiling for a fight and had division after division of well equipped, well trained, battle hardened and victorious troops. Stalin could have been dealt with. Invading Russia is one thing...throwing the Russians out of Poland would have been another.

coldfire
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 93 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 31-Aug-2004 01:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (pixie):
>and by your own reasoning wht MicroA1 differ from Pegasos!?

I wonder if it will always be like this. Let's imagine this:

An Ami-guy is showing his brand new MicroA1 at some show, "the next generation Amiga".
A fanatic Mac-dude testdrives it, questions the price, questions why theres such old tech in it. Will the answer be to him "well it doesn't differ much from Pegasos!"? too?

He will leave with a WTF-impression on his face thinking what the heeeeeck is "Pegasos". =)

I think it's not healthy to compare the MicroA1 to Pegasos, thats not the area it's competiting in. Rather be worried how to sell it to outside "our" market.
This is not a reply just for Pixie, but to all who use the same, shall we call, excuse. Trust me, outsider dont give a shit if its on par with Pegasos or not.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 94 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Fei on 31-Aug-2004 04:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (pixie):
Not much, really. Pegasos community seems to me to gather more serious programmers and less end users (only seems as nobody did any statistics on it). But that can be only my impression. Another difference is the Pegasos people (at least here in Poland) are more open to "strangers" who did not decide to join either side of the Force. OS4 fans (we call them "betaknights" ;) act really like fanatics and I don't like it at all. Example? Phoning you late at night to tell you that you're wrong because you wrote a critical comment on OS4 somewhere. Also the Polish OS4 portal is full of stinging irony and reminding you every third word that A1 is the only "true Amiga" (even Classics seem to be not). That is one of main reasons I will not buy an A1. I don't want to join such a community. Pegasos people, on the other hand, are OK but I see everything there starts to fall apart. How long can they wait for another OS update? Now everybody says in open that Genesi spent what it had and the whole buzz around Peg is over. Results? Not pretty much impressive. I observe I've become more anxious (with age ;) and don't like waiting. I'd waited many years for something to happen with Amiga, as I bought my A1200 just after Commodore went bancrupt. Nothing really happened and not much is happening today. So why get frustrated?
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 95 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 31-Aug-2004 07:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Anonymous):
To all of you who likes to compare the price level of this (year 2004, the "I" model probably 2005) product with what you paid for your old 1985-1995 Amigas: You are so wrong! There was a different time back then, with totally different price levels for computers, so all such comparisons are totally meaningless! I mean, back then you would have to put up some good €3500 Euros or so for a 386 system (when the 386 was launched)!

What you *should* compare (if price levels is what you want to compare) is what MiniITX boards costs in *2005*, and what features and performance they offer for that price!
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 96 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 31-Aug-2004 07:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (coldfire):
OK, Your comment:
England may have been exhausted but the US was just hitting it's stride at the end of WWII. At wars end US Naval Yards were producing an aircraft carrier per week, there were battleships under construction, one 90% complete, that dwarfed the largest current battleships. Aircraft of all types were being produced faster than pilots could be trained to fly them. Patton and other American Generals were spoiling for a fight and had division after division of well equipped, well trained, battle hardened and victorious troops. Stalin could have been dealt with. Invading Russia is one thing...throwing the Russians out of Poland would have been another.

coldfire

Lets start to look into that. Soviet army forces stood at 12.5 Million men and Women. They had on the ground at the VERY least matching numbers of tanks. The T34 is a better tank than the tommy cooker (Sherman). You also ignore tha ABSOLUTE fanatacism of Soviet forces at the time. Consider Stalingrad where they did not have enough guns, so they would send two men with one gun. When one man fell the other one would pick up the gun and continue fighting. The Soviets would expend human beings at a rate unthinkable in Britain or in America. The soviets had no problem producing weapons in massive numbers just like the US. In some areas they lacked types of weapons, such as in Naval terms. But you are not talking about a Naval issue, you are in a primary sense talking about the European theatre, one where you face massed forces of Stalins Organs, T34's, Millions of men, armour, artillery, You no longer have Air superiority, and you lose the ability to bomb the enemy industrial infrastructure. Oh, and just so you know this, you have no access to Polish areas. None. You have to attack through the russian held areas of Germany, or come through by Indaving other states like Czechoslovakia.

http://ocw.mit.edu/NR/rdonlyres/Political-Science/17-471American-National-Security-PolicyFall2002/4B404E48-D98D-4C05-B494-0AC08DF051F7/0/174710819451949.pdf

Further, the 'Autumn Storm' offensive by the Soviet Union against Japan would not have occured. The Soviet airforces facing the allies can be taken from here:
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/George_Mellinger/soviet_order_of_battle.htm

This does not include units seemingly including the 3,000 hurricanes Britain sent the Russians.

Quite frankly, what you suggest is for the western allies to turn on an enemy at least the equal of nazi germany at its height in terms or number of weapons, men, equipment, and manufacturing capability.

Do you somehow believe that the American and British Airfroces would be able to fly to Tankograd and bomb the russian tank factories?
What, you'd start trying to bomb Moscow? You'd commit to Coldfire's 'Barbarossa II'?

I think NOT.

Now, lets say I was as stupid as you, and I thought it was even half possible to shunt the Soviets out of Eastern Europe. Lets say you did. Do you somehow believe they would drop back to their borders and just accept it?

Further, if the US and the Allies could not move out of the European theatre, just how will you allocate the forces needed in the Pacific against Japan?
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 97 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 31-Aug-2004 07:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 95 (takemehomegrandma):
"I mean, back then you would have to put up some good €3500 Euros or so for a 386 system (when the 386 was launched)! "

When I bought my CBM64 + tape drive, some other preferred Atari without any mass strorage (and it cost more, IIRC).
When I bought A500, the PCXT might have been slightly more expensive (with B&G monitor).
When I bought my A2000 + HDD etc., some of my friends went for 8Mhz 286 PC/AT which were also cheaper ( I was also adviced to go there ).
When I bought my A4000/25Mhz + HDD, 386/40 and 486/25 were about 50% cheaper.
When I bought my CS060/50, Pentium 100Mhz machine cost less.
When CSPPC~200mhz came available it cost more than a P200 PC.

"What you *should* compare (if price levels is what you want to compare) is what MiniITX boards costs in *2005*, and what features and performance they offer for that price!"

No! (IMHO, though!)

As long as you want to continue with AmigaOS, you either stay with the classic Amigas or buy AmigaOS4 compatible HW. So, for AOS4, we can only compare between other A1 models.

(if you just want to continue with "any" OS that somehow looks like AmigaOS, you have more options, like VIA + AROS without any SW base)
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 98 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 31-Aug-2004 07:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (priest):
I forgot emulators.

Surely x86 mini ITX boards with Amithlon/AmigaForever are competing AMIGA OS platforms. But with those the board performance/featureset available via AOS is far more limited.
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 99 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 31-Aug-2004 08:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (priest):
>> "What you *should* compare (if price levels is what you want to compare) is
>> what MiniITX boards costs in *2005*, and what features and performance they
>> offer for that price!"

> No! (IMHO, though!)
>
> As long as you want to continue with AmigaOS, you either stay with the
> classic Amigas or buy AmigaOS4 compatible HW. So, for AOS4, we can only
> compare between other A1 models.

I know the options if you want to continue with AmigaOS, I wasn't talking about that. I was more talking about survival of the A1 HW platform; I was more at a strategic level. OS4 is not ready enough for real usage, for real users outside this little community, and it won't be for a *considerable* amount of time. When it is (and when/if there is something (anything!) running on OS4 that will actually make people outside this community considering the investment of purchasing A1/OS4), will there still be an A1 HW platform alive to run it on? That may depend on how many boards Eyetech sells!

Eyetech's sales to this little saturated "Amiga" market will be so small that it hardly will pay any bills at all. However, sales to Linux market could! And then it becomes *very* relevant to compare the options!

What does the MiniITX A1 have, that other MiniITX boards of 2004/2005 doesn't, that justifies this **huge** price difference? Note that this was a rethorical question, because we all know the answer: Not much! At this price level, this HW platform is quite doomed IMHO (without even considering the effects of the Articia-S).
MicroAmiga available in October. : Comment 100 of 126ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 31-Aug-2004 09:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (priest):
I think some of the problem here is that some people are trying to rationalise their hobby.

In short:
Don't

There's always going to be a more rational (in terms of time and money spent) way to live your life. Do NOT try to rationalise your OWN hobby by pointing out ineffiencies in other peoples time and money spent. It is NOT going to work. If I WANT an AmigaOne, I am not going to spend money on a PC. Why? Because I don't WANT a PC.

I have spent money on a boat I hardly even use. Why? Because I wanted one.
I haven't bought an apartment (and I'm nearly 28 years old, that's almost unheard of here in Norway). Why? Because I haven't found the place I want.

Buying something you do not want because it is cheaper SURELY cannot be the right thing to do?

So to everyone who has no interest in buying a Peg, don't tell those who have that they shouldn't because this or that. To everyone not interested in an AmigaOne, don't tell those who are interested that an x86 is cheaper. If they wanted an x86 more they would buy one, they aren't THAT stupid.

As it is, you must want an AmigaOne or a Peg more than you want an x86 to justify a purchase, but if you need to justify the purchase then maybe you're not really interested anyway.

So, enough is enough. You spend YOUR money how YOU feel is right, I will spend MINE as I want to. I think my next purchase will be a projector, but I want one with 1024x768 so am hanging in there, waiting for prices to drop. If I had been interested enough, I would have bought one anyway. But I ain't. So what do I do? Shut up and bide my time, is what I do.

Thank you for listening.
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