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[News] Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboardANN.lu
Posted on 17-Oct-2004 12:25 GMT by Not ArticiaP69 comments
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On this link you will see three pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard: http://lain.ziaspace.com/~ryu/a1. On the pictures you can see that it still uses the ArticiaS northbridge, as well as the VIA 686B southbridge, but a standalone Sil0680 IDE controller is there as well.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 51 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom (193.11.251.131) on 19-Oct-2004 10:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Anonymous):
anonymous coward wrote:
> This downgrates ATI Radeon 7000 capabilities from AGP x2 to AGP x0
> (= PCI).

I'm not sure if that is any real difference, though. I don't think the
old AmigaOnes (or the Peg1, for that matter) could sustain AGP x2
bandwidth anyway. It seems to be a limitation in the Articia.

Of course, it should be readily possible for someone to do a
thorough bus speed test with PCI and AGP cards on some old
AmigaOne.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 52 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 19-Oct-2004 10:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Anonymous):
"This downgrades ATI Radeon 7000 capabilities from AGP x2 to AGP x0 (= PCI).
It means Radeon on the uA1-I board can work in PCI mode only.

But why they did it? No need for AGP in Amiga?"

Not in an industrial model, I would think. For example, a board used to drive a display on a train station would not need AGP. Nor would a touch-screen information display for a museum.

A PCI display is much better than AGA, and Amigas with AGA were being used successfully for a range of applications a few years ago.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 53 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by priest (Registered user) on 19-Oct-2004 11:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Anonymous):
"To BUS-0 six bus masters are connected:
2. one PCI slot (for ONE PCI card only),"

If one uses PCI ricer card with 3 slots, only one PCI card could be used?

"6. one PCI-104 slot."

Do those stacked PCI-104 share the slot not needing more bus mastering capability?

But could PCI-104 and PCI share #6? Bus master could then exist only on one or the other?

"The 7th bus master included on the uA1-I board (RTL8110 NIC controller)
had to be connected to BUS-1 together with the ATI Radeon 7000 chip."

For industrial use that could be a superb solution. 1Gb ethernet would then not load the other PCI bus and block the PCI & UDMA capability.


"But why they did it? No need for AGP in Amiga?"

No need in industrial use?
(except that I'm not convinced that the Gb ethernet is on the other bus)

"> Perhaps Radeon7000 does not gain anything from AGP2x ?
Maybe you should send your comment to ATI? ;-)"

Is there benchmarks of Radeon 7000 with AGP0x/2x/4x speeds?

(Some other card was tested and it had 2FPS difference between 2x and 4x, perhaps the difference of 0x and 2x is 4FPS ???)

If the GFX performance drops noticeably when comparing to uA1c, and if there is no special use for the Gb ethernet, one might reconsider... (still, the onboard firewire saves one PCI slot...)
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 54 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 19-Oct-2004 11:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (priest):
Due stacktrhough nature of this connector, PCI-104 needs multiple of PCI signalings in single connector.. And each add-on card must have 1of4 selectors for Req,Gnt,Idesel,Clk,int. And PCI-104 requires specific Clock distribution (+delay lines) system to be build on motherboard.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 55 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (62.29.129.9) on 19-Oct-2004 13:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (priest):
> If one uses PCI ricer card with 3 slots, only one PCI card could be used?

It depends.

If you have passive riser (like most risers on the market) you can still use
only one PCI bus master card. In this kind of risers you can use 3 PCI cards
only if they do not work as bus masters. But I doubt if any not bus masters
PCI cards are still on the market (except 10Mbps cards).

There are active PCI risers, which include PCI-to-PCI bridges on-board. But
who know if Articia S supports them without problems?

> Do those stacked PCI-104 share the slot not needing more bus mastering capability?
> But could PCI-104 and PCI share #6? Bus master could then exist only on one or the other?

It looks like the PCI-104 slot in the uA1-I board is reduced PCI-104 slot
(lack of REQ1#, REQ2#, REQ3#, GNT1#, GNT2#, GNT3#). This slot allows to
install only one bus master capable PCI-104 card (controlled by REQ0#, GNT0#).

Or at least two PCI-104 cards when PCI card is not installed in the PCI slot. This is possible only if they decided to share PCI slot' REQ and GNT signals
with PCI-104 slot as the second masters pair (REQ1#, GNT1#).

> For industrial use that could be a superb solution.

But... the uA1-I boards have been offered for Amiga community. We are not
in industrial business here.

> Is there benchmarks of Radeon 7000 with AGP0x/2x/4x speeds?

In PCI mode (AGP x0) all data have to be sent to the Radeon memory by CPU.
In AGP x2 mode (x4, x8) texture data are copied from the system memory to
Radeon 7000 memory without using CPU. Radeon DMA AGP engine does it.

> If the GFX performance drops noticeably when comparing to uA1c, and if there is
> no special use for the Gb ethernet, one might reconsider... (still, the onboard firewire saves one PCI slot...)

Are you sure that in uA1-C the Radeon chip works in AGP x2 mode?
There are no info about the differences in on-board graphic
capabilities in C and I versions in these products advertisements.

Maybe the Radeon 7000 gfx chip in uA1-C is also configured in the PCI mode?
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 56 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by priest (Registered user) on 19-Oct-2004 18:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Anonymous):
>> For industrial use that could be a superb solution.
>But... the uA1-I boards have been offered for Amiga community. We are not
in industrial business here.

Right, so?
Better if it would not be offered to Amiga community?
It's positive thing that it is offered ... even if the GFX chip would be Trio64. (I would not buy it, though)

>> Is there benchmarks of Radeon 7000 with AGP0x/2x/4x speeds?
>In PCI mode (AGP x0) all data have to be sent to the Radeon memory by CPU.

Why? Also PCI is DMA capable.

>In AGP x2 mode (x4, x8) texture data are copied from the system memory to
>Radeon 7000 memory without using CPU. Radeon DMA AGP engine does it.

I think that is incorrect. AGP was invented to allow GFX card to use system RAM as it's GFX/3D RAM extension.

If all textures that are used in one game "level" fit in 32Mb GFX memory, nothing is loaded in between level change.

So no benchmarks?

>> If the GFX performance drops noticeably when comparing to uA1c, and if there is
>> no special use for the Gb ethernet, one might reconsider... (still, the onboard firewire saves one PCI slot...)
>Are you sure that in uA1-C the Radeon chip works in AGP x2 mode?

No.

I've desided to wait untill these issues are clear before buying A1.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 57 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 19-Oct-2004 20:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (priest):
> I've desided to wait untill these issues are clear before buying A1.

Well.. If those comments about PCI bus design and PCI-104 'compliance' are anythign to give direction of things to come... You'll be smart one to do so.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 58 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (203.220.255.87) on 20-Oct-2004 05:55 GMT
The shifty shithouse rides again, I can't believe people are still falling for this "it works" crap after all the lies and lack of transparency.

Is everyone really so desparate they have to believe in a product by virtue of a sticker rather than letting said product's performance be the judge?

Bring on the tests and let's see the results, until then words are nothing more than that.

here is hoping you have seen the light at the end of the tunnel and it is called the truth, finally.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 59 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by priest (Registered user) on 20-Oct-2004 12:58 GMT
benchmarks ....

These are the only/best tests that I have found so far:

http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20000214/index.html
Synthetic test:
http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20000214/agp-07.html
In real life (quake3, 4%):
http://www20.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20000214/agp-07.html

Athlon 800Mhz and PentiumIII 800, Geforce256DDR, PC133SDRAM, ....


According 3DMark, Radeon is in the same ballpark with Geforce256 in performance.
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030120/vgacharts-05.html
http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20020418/vgacharts-05.html
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 60 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by priest (Registered user) on 20-Oct-2004 13:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Anonymous):
Why would AmigaOS users need AGP2x when MOS users do not need it either. ;) ;)
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 61 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (213.226.84.50) on 21-Oct-2004 05:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (priest):
The Pegasos at least has AGP 1x, not 0x (PCI). But I think you are right. Perhaps everyone will just drop this silly AGP argument now, and that goes for the reds too!
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 62 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (212.206.177.237) on 21-Oct-2004 12:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Anonymous):
The PegasosII has no AGP, only PCI 66Mhz....
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 63 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk (24.150.70.204) on 21-Oct-2004 20:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Anonymous):
Yes, on the Pegasos II board the AGP slot is strictly fed the PCI signals at 66MHz. There is no GART or SBA capability on this board as the Marvell Discovery II does not support AGP. It looks like newer PCI Express equipped motherboards are using the same trick to put an AGP slot on for backwards compatibility.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 64 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 22-Oct-2004 07:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Adam Kowalczyk):
> It looks like newer PCI Express equipped motherboards are using the same
> trick to put an AGP slot on for backwards compatibility.

As far as I understand, it has been a quite common way to get an AGP slot on motherboards with non-AGP northbridges in the past, present and also as you say, in current and future PCI Express systems for backwards compatibility. And it works like a charm!

:-)
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 65 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (62.84.216.196) on 22-Oct-2004 09:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 64 (takemehomegrandma):
>And it works like a charm!

Hm, a non working GART on a modern graphics board kind of defeats the purpose of AGP, doesn't it? I mean, why would I buy an expensive PCI-Express motherboard and stick an old AGP x1/AGP x2 board in it?
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 66 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk (24.150.70.204) on 22-Oct-2004 10:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Anonymous):
With more and more memory being placed on modern graphics cards, the need for GART has become less significant. With the move to PCI Express for graphics on new motherboards, the prescence of an AGP slot is more a convenience for a customer until they buy a PCI Express graphics card.
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 67 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Agima (24.20.233.56) on 22-Oct-2004 16:43 GMT
Very pretty pictures :)
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 68 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (213.226.84.50) on 23-Oct-2004 16:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Anonymous):
No, modern graphic cards with a lot of on board memory defeated the purpose of AGP! ;-)

Another thing is the speed, but that is a different issue. Keep an eye open for the Pegasos 3 with PCI Express, running circles around AGP 8x! :-)
Pictures of the MicroA1 "Industrial" motherboard : Comment 69 of 69ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Kowalczyk (24.150.70.204) on 23-Oct-2004 16:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Anonymous):
I hear you....keep an eye on the next generation Amiga board. PCI Express just smokes AGP8x...and the SATA performance is stellar.
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