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[Motd] Advertisers neededANN.lu
Posted on 14-Jan-2001 13:22 GMT by Christian Kemp43 comments
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In a recent MOTD, I stated that the advertiser situation was bad, but I didn't expect to make less than 5$ in 13 days. So I decided to pull the only remaining advertisement banner, but I am hoping to find an alternative means of at least covering my online cost (various virtual servers, phone bill, etc.). I haven't given up the hope that Amiga companies (Amiga, Haage&Partner, and many others) will finally understand that the market would be even less alive without Amiga news sites, and finally decide to make suitable contributions to the news sites they've been using for years to post their press releases and announce their products on.

Do I sound slightly bitter? Perhaps. But with a phone bill of 100$ every month, an upcoming domain renewal for 90€, a website generating 5$ out of over 50,000 pageviews is just ridiculous...

Advertisers needed : Comment 1 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Don't wait for them, contact them yourself !!!
Advertisers needed : Comment 2 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Wilson on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Elwood):
I know how Christian feels, I run AmiBench, and We hardly make enough to cover the cost of re-registering the domains in two years time.
Its a very sad state of affairs that when you contact an Amiga company asking if they would like to sponsor a well known Amiga site, most either dont bother responding, or the few that do just say "no".
If Christian feels anything like me he does not do this for the money - I bet its far from it.
And for all the purists out there who dont think we should make any money at all, Why can't we? You dont help us in any way, We are small indipentant sites, Without the revinue from banners we would have all shut up shop years ago.
Remeber nothing in this world is free.
Advertisers needed : Comment 3 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Mark Wilson):
I think I pointed this out on several occasions: if it weren't for the financial aspects of running the site, I would have abandoned ANN a long time ago. Dedication to a platform, its user base, the fun part of writing code, or other noble motives only last for a while - after that, some other motivation is needed.
Advertisers needed : Comment 4 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by nOMAAM on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
I think Amiga companies barely make enough money to survive ...
Maybe when Amiga releases the AmigaOne other companies will also benefit
from it and make some money.
Advertisers needed : Comment 5 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
If we actually made any money off our products I'd be happy to offer some support, but meanwhile I'm just doing my part myself (amigafire.com, amiga.dk, wuergler.dk and other minor things) to keep the market alive and updated.
Best regards
Thomas Würgler
Pagan Games
- in it for the fun, not for the money
Advertisers needed : Comment 6 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Its the same with us at <A HREF="http://www.boingworld.com">BoingWorld</A>, altho we are a few persons paying for the site and domain name... The only reason whe even bother is because the Amiga as a plattform deserves all the support it can get... And the community also... ofcourse! Is there a single Amiga company that REALLY makes money on the Amiga theese days?... We do I have a feeling that most of them have more expenses than anything else?
Advertisers needed : Comment 7 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Adam Waldenberg on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Its the same with us at www.boingworld.com, altho we are a few persons paying for the site and domain name... The only reason whe even bother is because the Amiga as a plattform deserves all the support it can get... And the community also... ofcourse! Is there a single Amiga company that REALLY makes money on the Amiga theese days?... Why do I have a feeling that most of them have more expenses than anything else?
Advertisers needed : Comment 8 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Brian H on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
The problem is that virtually ALL amiga companies are stretched thin in terms of money. Hey, even Amiga can't afford to go to non Amiga events. And quite honestly, I don't think that too many Amiga companies would profit enough from banners on other sites.
So what are your options? Well, non related Amiga stuff, where there might be a lower clickthrough rate. I personally use Commission Junction, which makes me about $30 a month for around 6000 page views. The reason why I have a better clickthrough rate is because I am a graphic design resource, which can apply to any platform, so I can choose any computer related banner without a conflict. It's a tight business now for Amiga companies. Hopefully things will pickup with some success of the new Amiga SDK....
Advertisers needed : Comment 9 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by JR on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
What type of banners were you using, if they were pay per click then I am sure if you ask most of us will click on an advert every now or then to help revenue.
Advertisers needed : Comment 10 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Ian on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Sorry if this is naiive, I don't know anything about online ads.
Can you get money for simply displaying an ad? Or does someone
actually have to click it? How many times to make anything worth
having?
If you have to click it, there are so many sites whos ads dont work
with some Amiga browsers because they need some unsupported
javascript, do bad browser version checks, handle cookies weirdly,
etc. Maybe if the link loaded quickly and cleanly with Amiga software
you'd get more hits?
Advertisers needed : Comment 11 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Paul McCord on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Mark Wilson):
This is indeed a very sad state of affairs, considering the valuable contribution that both ANN and Amibench make to the Amiga community. In my opinion, these sites are both indispensible as I have used them regularly.
However, the financial constraints do still directly affect all Amiga organisations in one way or another, many companies have abandoned the platform because of poor (or non existant) returns on investment. Many companies who have stayed loyal are facing some harsh realities, particulary as there is a general slowdown in the IT industry as a whole.
I wish you both luck in the future and hope that you can continue the excellent service.
Advertisers needed : Comment 12 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Groves on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
I also think it's a sad state of affairs especially as www.ann.lu is one of the few sites that seems to be updated on a regular basis and this is where I get most of my amiga news from. I hope things pick up for you and wish you all the best.
Chris
Advertisers needed : Comment 13 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by JW Olson on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
It is interesting as I run a non-commercial site at http://www.wwics.com/~jolson which generates on average $1300.00 per month. I don't have any Banner ads, don't ask people for money, don't threaten to disappear if I don't get money or any of the other commonly accepted things. I even got an all expenses two week vacation at a resort here just a couple of months ago as a thank you! Ah well! You win your way and I'll win mine!
Advertisers needed : Comment 14 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Falk Lüke on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Sorry, but I have to state, that I laughed at the number.
Christian, you became (in Amiga-dimensions) a LOT of money from Eternity, too much for the effect.
Eternity asked for lower prices and you didn't want to accept that. So don't
cry this year when you were pulling down the eternityad last year. You didn't
mind about an Amiga companies future, so for real you can't expect that others take care of your future.
Bye,
Falk
Advertisers needed : Comment 15 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Falk Lüke):
Just to get matters straight, at that time your new offer amounted to less than what the industry average was at. Had I accepted your offer, I would have made less by using targeted banners than untargeted generic banners.
But that was then, and now is now, and the industry average has gone down to a tenth of what it used to be back then.
You might reason that I'm paying now for not adopting to Eternity's requests of lowering the rates, but then there would have been no guarantee whatsoever that Eternity would in fact have stayed a long term sponsor up until now, or that they wouldn't have wanted even lower prices a month later.
Advertisers needed : Comment 16 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christian Kemp):
I forgot to mention that it wasn't just me who "pull the Eternity ad", but rather that we stopped the cooperation because we couldn't agree on the prices, among other things.
Also, I forgot to comment on how at that time, I think that advertising on amiga-news.de would have cost you just as much, if you factor in that ANN allowed you to have much larger banners and therefore get your message across in a much better way.
Advertisers needed : Comment 17 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (JW Olson):
Would you care to enlighten me of how you're making money with that page?
Advertisers needed : Comment 18 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by nOMAAM on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Christian Kemp):
Hehe ... someone asked him to please, please remove THAT page ...
Advertisers needed : Comment 19 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
To answer a few questions, yes, I used to be paid just for displaying the ads. This is commonly referred to as the CPM ad model, as compared to a CPC model where you are paid per click. CPM used to be, and still is, very popular among bigger sites, because it is fairer on the publisher, and rewards him for the branding aspects a banner has, rather than just rewarding the immediate clickthroughs to a website. Prices I was paid used to range between 1$ and 3$ per 1000 pages viewed. Nowadays the CPM industry is plagued by what is called default-banners, which happens whenever an ad network can't fill its inventory with paying ads and therefore shows non-paying ads. AdFlight, ClearBlueMedia and FastClick, the advertising agencies I've been using, were displaying over 90% non-paying defaults in January.
Advertisers needed : Comment 20 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Michael Jantzen on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Ahh the harsh realities of the .com world. Some of the click through adverts are going out of business actually.
Good luck with ANN :). You could always host it on hana.maybe.net (if I got a bigger line that is).
Advertisers needed : Comment 21 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Wilson on 13-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Paul McCord):
>This is indeed a very sad state of affairs, considering the valuable >contribution that both ANN and Amibench make to the Amiga community. In my >opinion, these sites are both indispensible as I have used them regularly.
Its nice to know that we make a differnce, I dont have the same goals in mind as Christian does, We`re both completely different. It does make my day when I get a "nice" mail, or someone leaves a nice comment on an advert on AmiBench.
>However, the financial constraints do still directly affect all Amiga >organisations in one way or another, many companies have abandoned the >platform because of poor (or non existant) returns on investment. Many >companies who have stayed loyal are facing some harsh realities, particulary >as there is a general slowdown in the IT industry as a whole.
Sure, but I got stung when AmiBench first started.. Sadeness offered to sponsor us and never paid us, Oh well. It happens. It wont happen again because I dont honestly think I can use any money from an Amiga company.
>I wish you both luck in the future and hope that you can continue the >excellent service.
We dont have any plans for leaving the amiga, in fact look for an announcement from AmiBench at the Alt-Woa show in feb!
Advertisers needed : Comment 22 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by kvince on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
ANN is the first web site I go to everyday. I don't have anything to advertise, but I would be willing to make a donation to help the cause.
Advertisers needed : Comment 23 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Paul Watkins on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (kvince):
I agree 100%
ANN is always the first site I go to (after checking my e-mail, of course)
I live in Australia, so it's great to be able to get all the news as it happens, rather than just getting 3 month old news from Amiga magazines.
Besides all that, the site gives us a sense of community. It's worth more to me than any printed magazine, and yes, I would consider contributing to keep the site going.
btw, I never clicked on the banner ads... I just didn't know....... damn, I feel bad about that now :(
Advertisers needed : Comment 24 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjørn Barmen on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Paul Watkins):
Well, the whole idea about clickin on banners is that you're supposed to be
tempted to buy some of the stuff in the other end, if you dont then it's
quite useless anyhow. So wether you click or not should be irrelevant.
Advertisers needed : Comment 25 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by anonimus on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Adam Waldenberg):
I think Compuquick makes much cash. Maybe they wanna sponsor. Then again, ANN.LU should go the Softwood root and put up a porn site. That way, ANN remains online as a "noble" endeavour and mister complains all the time can pay his phone bill.
Advertisers needed : Comment 26 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Jens Larsson on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
One thing I can asure You. www.boingworld.com is never going to be shut down due to money problems. We don't have any costs exept for the domainname ($35 per year) and we are several people paying. (I would afford it myself if I had to) and more than half of the boingworld crew has got 0.5 to 2.4Mbit broadband at home, so no online costs eighter. My point is: If anyone has got money problems with their amiga related site, please mail us for help. Maybe even a merge if you have something we don't. ;) "Tack så mycket"
Advertisers needed : Comment 27 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by John McKenzie on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
What exactly are the costs of running ANN?
Are you paying for internet access soley to run the site?
It would be such a shame if you were forced to shut down. If you can break down your problems in more detail it may help to find a solution.
Advertisers needed : Comment 28 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Dundar Unsal on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Same thing for Amigart.com.. I thought it was because of the ads we are showing are usually belong to PC world and viewers do not click on PC products. But that does not mean there is no cure for this. Big web sites ANN,BoingWorld,Amigart,CzechAN can start a fake clicking campaign and may increase the input up to 80-100$ monthly just telling visitors "PLEASE CLICK". That means 25 clicks a day. Not so strange and worth thinking.
Doubleclick,valuclick etc gives 12 to 15 cents per click.
Advertisers needed : Comment 29 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Jason Murray on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Christian,
How about setting up a donations service through
paypal.com or something like that?
Advertisers needed : Comment 30 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mousky on 14-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (JW Olson):
>It is interesting as I run a non-commercial site at
>http://www.wwics.com/~jolson which generates on average $1300.00 per month.
Just how do you generate $1300 per month with a non-commercial site with no banner ads and not asking people money? Please elaborate
Advertisers needed : Comment 31 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 15-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Ilook at ANN quite often for news and opinion concerning the future of the Amiga. I would be willing to make a small contribution to keep it going.
Advertisers needed : Comment 32 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Jens Larsson on 15-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Dundar Unsal):
NOOO! We will NOT have ANY banner on boingworld.com. We think banners are disturbing and lowers the quality of the website plus that it takes longer time to load the page. Boingworld.com are economically independant and does not need any banners. We have a different system: The people behind boingworld; the editors, perl programemrs etc. pay $10/year to have a homepage and a mailaccount. The serverspace is free on a friends server so the money goes to the domainname and to things we see fit. I personally don't think $10 per year is much for email and homepage at boingworld.com. I think it's a winning concept.
Advertisers needed : Comment 33 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Wayne Hunt on 15-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
For once, I thought I'd throw my two cents in here. Thanks to Christian for bringing up the subject.
For the last five years, I've run (with some help lately) the Amiga.org Web site. On average, our costs for just the physical aspect of the site have ranged from $600 per year (1995) to over $4500 per year in 1998/1999. Overall, I estimate that out of pocket, I've spent roughly $25000 in five years on running the site if you count software, support, hardware, and attending shows to support the site. Amiga.org has never gotten out of the red as far as expenses go.
Then again, we've never held some mystical misconception that Classic Amiga-supporting businesses could be held to some magical "advertising averages scale". What people fail to realize is that these "scales" are established by your average PC site with 100x more visitors which are sponsored by companies with tens of thousands times the advertising budget of the average CompuQuick or Nova Design.
The rule of thumb is: "Charge what the market will bear" and right now ladies and gents, anyone getting into the Amiga market hoping to make money is either an idiot or a hobbyist with too much money on their hands.
I've also seen an overbearing tendency in this conversation to blame Amiga, Inc. and you might not understand this, but I have more reason to blame them for the condition of the current market than anyone else. The question is... Why? They didn't buy the "community". They didn't buy our support, they never claimed that they would ever truly support the classic community, so why are we (as webmasters) so absolutely willing to blame them for our problems? That's not Amiga Inc's fault, nor is it their responsibility to uphold every major Amiga news site, even with minor sponsorship. They simply can't.
What we've been forced to deal with is a fact of technical life (15-year-old, non-manufactured computer), and the bungling of certain issues by certain people which could have helped save this market. Speaking only of the Classic Amiga in a market sense, it's dead or dying, but I digress..
As I said, I got into this in late 1994 because I thought HTML (pre 1.0) was cool and fun to play with. Sure, along the way I had always dreamt of making it my real job, and getting paid for it, but it isn't going to happen. I love helping the community-at-large, and I enjoy being in the position where I find the site today.
Unfortunately, at the same time, I've come to despise the loud, bitchy (apologies), vocal minority who only complain about the *free* services Amiga.org provide without so much as a "thanks". I'm sure that Christian, Pekr, and others here would certainly agree with me that continual badgering of the 1% vocally abusive minority sometimes outweighs the 99% majority of people who're just happy your site exists but never stop to say "thanks".
While I can't speak for Christian or anyone else here, I run Amiga.org now because I enjoy it as a hobby. It's not about money (there is none). It's not about power (what exactly would an Amiga webmaster have power over anyway?).
For me, it's about the hope that something better is coming and it's about doing something I enjoy (writing code). If I ever confirm for myself that nothing new is ever coming and/or I don't enjoy coding the site any longer, I'll move on. Simple.
I wish Christian and all the others sincere luck in making their sites profitable, but at the same time, please be realistic about it. The money in this market just isn't there any more.
Wayne Hunt
Site Manager
Amiga.org
Advertisers needed : Comment 34 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by David Connolly on 15-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Wayne Hunt):
Yes, I don't know if I can put it as eloquently as Wayne, but the truth is there is a lack of money to be made in the classic market. It hasn't been profitable for games companies for around five years in truth, and even hardware manufacturers are struggling. So I quit the market because of the difficulties in one sense and then complain about Amiga,Inc and other companies not wanting to advertise despite rates well below average. In truth if anyone's to blame it's the very people shouting from their high horse about things but not actually buying any products. The facts speak for themselves: If I can offer 15,000 Amiga users for 95 pounds a page and no company will do it, what else can it mean.
But this is not to slag off Amiga users, I say IF anyone is to blame! In truth it's 15 years old. Why do new products like the Playstation 2 come along. In theory it would be easier for Sony to stick to the Playstation 1 and rake in the money. If it were that simple! It's not, and with technology older than most things out there (especially in the computing world) you can expect the worst. Hmmm. Now if we could only work out how prostitutes have lasted all these years ;-)
Advertisers needed : Comment 35 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Wilson on 16-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Wayne Hunt):
Wayne said "I wish Christian and all the others sincere luck in making their sites profitable, but at the same time, please be realistic about it. The money in this market just isn't there any more."
Its not about making money for me (in regard to AmiBench) its about supporting the community. I like doing this, Sure we have banners on our site, but in all honesty I dont see them staying much longer.
I would of course like everyone elseout there love to support an Amiga company.
Money is a nice thing to earn sure, but its not the be all and end all of things, It just helps to improve things.
Advertisers needed : Comment 36 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 17-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Falk Lüke):
If you want response, you have to ask for response.
Visitors looked and thought "Eternity is sponsoring ANN, nice people".
If you wanted return and value you would have made us an offer we would have been crazy to refuse.
So visitors would have thought "wow, this software, for that money" and a percentage would have bought.
Christian can only deliver the banner views, what you do with the opportunity is up to you.
Advertisers needed : Comment 37 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by John Millington on 17-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
Christian,
Banner ads aren't paying well because, when you get down to it, they just
don't _work_. If you want to get the word out about something that is
for sale, banner ads aren't a very good way to do it. Most people don't
even look at them, and a growing number of people even auto-filter them.
Amiga-targeted ads are especially useless. Everyone already knows what
Amiga products are out there. (In fact, this is largely due to sites like
ANN.) A simple announcement of a product on ANN is worth a thousand ads.
Even if ads worked, their cost would ultimately be passed on to whoever
buys the advertised product -- the ANN reader who sees the ad and clicks
on it and buys. So there's no getting around the fact that it's the
readers who end up paying. Well, it's either the readers, or it's going
to be you, or else that's the end of ANN.
So, I recommend that you embrace the idea of ANN being paid for by its
readers. Starting accepting donations. ANN's front page should have
a link that has an address for where to send donations, Paypal info, etc.
IMHO, one thing that would help to encourage donations, would be if ANN's
front page showed the previous month's costs and donations. Then people
would see the situation for themselves, and be faced with the cold hard
fact that they either have to support something that they value, or watch
it die.
It wouldn't have to be flashy or obtrusive or look like undignified begging.
Just a simple line like this:
Previous month's bandwidth/hosting cost: $x Previous month's donations: $y. Click here to donate.
I think it would work, at least for a while.
Advertisers needed : Comment 38 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 17-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (John Millington):
Just commenting on the PayPal thing: Living in Luxembourg, Europe, I can't even open a PayPal account to get paid, and quite a lot of European people couldn't open PayPal accounts to make a small contribution either; since PayPal seems to be limited to just a few countries.
I'll be thinking about the rest of your comments though.
Advertisers needed : Comment 39 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 17-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Christian Kemp):
http://www.itrustyou.com
US Dollars
UK Pounds
Irish Punts
Euro
German DM
French Francs
Danish Kroner
Norwegian Kroner
Dutch Guilders
Italian Lira
Advertisers needed : Comment 40 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Falk Lüke on 17-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (John Block):
Dear John,
I really don't know what you think Eternity is. It's a shop, a developer and
distributor. Since Christian Kemp got money that was above amiga-news.de prices
(!) you can't talk about it like a charity project.
Eternity refused to pay the price in future, Christian was sure to get his money
anyway. Okay, thats the way it was. But you have to understand that I did laugh
out loud when I read the number of thirteen dollar.. Christian got up to 30-40
times the sum in best times. And that was too much for an AMIGA store.
Please don't think Christian Kemp is doing this only for charity reason.
Advertisers needed : Comment 41 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 19-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Falk Lüke):
> Please don't think Christian Kemp is doing this only for charity reason.
And I never pretended I was.
(BTW, can you really compare prices for a 120x60 banner displayed on an index page half of the time with a 468x60 banner displayed on all pages all of the time?)
Advertisers needed : Comment 42 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by Falk Lüke on 19-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Christian Kemp):
Dear Christian,
yes, I can do that. Amiga-News.de readers are mainly german. They are the main target group of adverts of most of the amiga dealers these days. So even twice the size or more at a mainly english language page has not the same effect as smaller ads on german language.
Thats just a fact, we also had ads at amiga-news.de...
Advertisers needed : Comment 43 of 43ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 29-Jan-2001 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Falk Lüke):
Hehe,
So much for the vaunted Amiga 'community'.
The problem is, there are more Amiga websitres than there are Amiga members.
Face it, the Amiga is beyond dead. Not that I'm happy about it, but the fact reamins.
You may want to consider reducing the number of Amiga sites, and consolidating the remaining Amiga community
to the smaller number of remaining sites.
BTW, its sad to see people still deluding themselves that "WinDoze' sucks and crashes 'every time I boot up'.
Its pretty darn stable.
But, best of all, I can buy new hardware, today!
Just bought my 800 Mhz Athlona and RAID mobo for $250.
How much was that A1200?
Anonymous, there are 43 items in your selection
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