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[Motd] ANN abuseANN.lu
Posted on 13-Apr-2001 10:23 GMT by Christian Kemp29 comments
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As you might have noticed, messages of questionable content have been posted on ANN under fictious names, Fleecy's name, as well as my own name. In the latest case, the border between harmless joke and abuse/slander has clearly been crossed, and I have invoked abuse procedures. The ISP of the offending poster has been contacted, and I'm hoping they will take appropriate measures. Any future postings that fall under the same category (abuse/slander and/or impersonating some other person) will also yield the same reaction: removal of the offending posting without any further comment, contacting of the ISP, and if everything else fails, legal action. This clearly cannot continue.
ANN abuse : Comment 1 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
The ignorant messages some people post is sadly inevitable in a forum like this. Hopefully nobofy will take the occuring to heart. There is no need to be touchy in a forum on the internet. I know of many companies that have taken angry, ignorant posts to heart and let it effect their developments. I guess forums like ann and amiga.org have more power than the users sitting at home with a magazine, writing in letters. Remember that the forums are the easyest way for a person to share his oppinion in one way or the other, therefore, it is easy for people to spread bull. Don't drink'n'post ;o)
ANN abuse : Comment 2 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Well done. People are confused enough as it is without a bunch of faceless BS'ers stirring the pot. So some of it is "just a joke"? I believe that about 25% is a joke while the rest is a deliberate undermining of the community by inbred morons with no sex-life.
There is no excuse to post under someone else's name/handle and there is no excuse (apart from memory lapse) to post anonymously. If you don't have the balls to stand up and "show" your face then keep your rumours to yourself. And don't start a flame war about "free speech" - what about the rights of individuals to be protected from lies and abuse? Free speech is good when it's accurate and verifiable, otherwise it's just plain mis-information that has no place in a "NEWS" group/site.
ANN abuse : Comment 3 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by rdrumloa on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Hmm i notice that the MiamiDX news posting is gone. i guess that wasn't really Holger? I was wondering why there was immediate childish flames, must have all been the same moron.
ANN abuse : Comment 4 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
I think the thing that pissed CK off was the one that I saw this morning which was a pretty personal insult/abuse aimed specifically at him. It wasn't just rumour mongering and "Amiga sucks" posts.
Well done CK, the internet has no place for that kind of behaviour - people don't get away with it in real life, why should they on the net.
ANN abuse : Comment 5 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Dave):
> I think the thing that pissed CK off was the one that I saw this morning
> which was a pretty personal insult/abuse aimed specifically at him. It wasn't
> just rumour mongering and "Amiga sucks" posts.
Yes, it was exactly that message. While I still tolerate, to a given extent, people using swear words to get across their point, there is just no way I can accept personal insults, and what's worse, completely unfounded and untrue information being posted about me, in my own name, by some guy with questionable morals (and what looks like a distinctive lack of intelligence or manners, I might add).
ANN abuse : Comment 6 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Budda on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Why not implement some sort of control to the postings? Swear word
filter :-) and also prevent postings from same IP within seconds of
each other. That would stop the repeat postings from the idiots out
to cause trouble.
ANN abuse : Comment 7 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by skal on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Kudos, Christian!!!
Look, the problem with those that loudly trumpet "their rights" is that, in a forum such as this and with a hot-button issue such as this, the trumpeters are the ones that seem to think that said rights are a blank check to post anything, no matter how infantile, libelous, slanderous or just plain dumb as a ditch carp.
Frankly, there is too much classical Maoism going on these days, with people trying to stake out "Amiga Purity" as their own territory. In that little clusterfsck of purity, they would like you to believe that they really, really, really have the best interests of all of us at heart. Really. No kidding. They really do. Just ask them.
Well I say that this stuff is just so much bovine-generated organic effluvient.
On a shingle.
The behaviors I saw displayed on the #developer IRC sessions, the Aminet affair, the postings on the web and Usenet, the personal attacks, the attempts at nuking your monthly bandwidth, all point to some people in the community that would do us and themselves a big favor by taking something stout, say a sledgehammer or a cricket bat and smashing their Amigas into something that resembles a pizza. After that, getting some real and substantive help for their personality disorders, before they turn into something far more serious and they become a danger to themselves or others.
One other note: I was apprised of the fact that after the Aminet affair, Urban's inbox was deluged by nearly 1000 emails, a good number of them mind-roastingly abusive, as if abusing such a selfless volunteer as Urban addresses the core issues facing the Amiga Community. Where in the hell is the outrage? Where are the men and women of good will speaking up, and yes, trying to find out just whom it was that attacked Aminet and the community, for make no mistake about it, this was an attack. In the past, the howls from people about this sorry-assed stuff would have been deafening. Now, all we get is fake posts from drooling mouthbreathers.
I think we all need to wake up and get hit by the cluetrain. Or we all will wake up one day and not have Jack Sh*t to look forward to...
Kudos again, my man.
ANN abuse : Comment 8 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by chunky on 12-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Darrin):
Good for CK. It's his board and his time and money, and he can do whatever he wants with his product. It's pathetic that some people cannot have an argument without getting all personal. That said:
"there is no excuse (apart from memory lapse) to post anonymously"
Oh, please, that's ludicrous. It's one thing to threaten bodily harm (that's considered assault in the U.S.),
and certainly maladaptive and immature to post under someone else's handle or name, but I
have little tolerance for this crap that people should have to give a name to post. Most of these names aren't real names, they're nicknames, and no different from Anonymous postings
other than one could piece together various postings from a single handle to form an opinion on that's poster's opinion.
I post under a different nickname each time (unless I'm carrying through a discussion with another individual, to avoid that person's confusion), so it is really no different from Anonymous.
I'll give you my real name when hell freezes over. I don't know any of you, nor do I trust any of you. That's the beauty of the Internet. One can express him/herself freely without fear of being stalked or persecuted as most certainly would happen (and does happen with public figures) if we were to be forced to reveal our identities. Then, few people would express themselves at all.
Also, swearing (by itself) is harmless. One can be threatening or abusive without swearing, don't blame curse words for anti-social behavior. Some people are offended by swearing. I'm offended by people who believe in the bible, but I don't want them to be silenced or persecuted any more than I would want that to happen to me. If something offends me, I can ignore it, tell that person that I was offended, etc., but that doesn't mean that person should be silenced. If I'm offended, that's my problem, not theirs.
Yeah, give out our names, and I should have to tell other people who I voted for President. That's nobody's business but my own.
ANN abuse : Comment 9 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (chunky):
My take on this has been, for a long time now, that ANN perfectly allows anonymous postings. The only thing I've been asking for is that whenever somebody posts without wanting to give his real name, a unique imaginary nickname or handle is to be used. This unwritten rule was stated a few times when I introduced the comments script: Multiple persons were posting as "Anonymous", and were referring to postings who they thought were written by the same individual, but in fact were written by some other anonymous being. Needless to say that this caused unnecessary confusion.
But as previous posters already said, and what should be plain to understand to anyone, is that there is not just a thin red line, but a giant red strip between stating one's opinion in a civilised and yet anonymous way, or intentionally sabotaging a website with slander, libel and insults.
ANN abuse : Comment 10 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (chunky):
>>I post under a different nickname each time (unless I'm carrying through a discussion with another individual, to avoid that person's confusion), so it is really no different from Anonymous.<<
And so YOU are, in my view, spineless. If you read my note properly then you can see that I don't say that you MUST use your real name (if you don't want to) and that nick-names are fine. The whole purpose of using some sort of identifier which is unique to YOU is that it stops deliberate wind-ups. If people know it one person making multiple comments and that that person leaps from one side of the fence to the other in a deliberate attempt to piss off boths parties involved in a debate then we'll all know that the person is a shit-stiring twat and should be ignored. Alternatively, someone might appreciate that person's point of view and perhaps pay more attention to other comments made in different articles.
>>I'll give you my real name when hell freezes over. I don't know any of you, nor do I trust any of you. That's the beauty of the Internet. One can express him/herself freely without fear of being stalked or persecuted as most certainly would happen (and does happen with public figures) if we were to be forced to reveal our identities. Then, few people would express themselves at all.<<
I agree with you totally!!! I happen to have a very unique name which could easily be traced by any old halfwit with internet access, and the last thing I want is my daughter going to my mailbox and finding a letterbomb addressed to me. There are "nutters" out there and we do have to protect ourselves, however using a nickname gives you a "name" and "face" in the community without having to actually present the physical "you". I happen to use my main email address because when I post something I'm prepared to stand by it and answer emails privately if required (or be reported to my ISP provider if I ever upset CK). I also like to remain identifiable because I feel that if I do insert my foot in my mouth at some point then a correction can be asked of me. If someone is overly paranoid of being traced/harrased via email then use a HOTMAIL (or smiliar) account.
Of course, these are personal view which are shared by the majority of the ANN posters. You're entitled to your view and you're entitled to protect your privacy, however sniping at people from out of the shadows is chickenshit and a lot easier than sitting down at a table with a beer and having a debate. :)
ANN abuse : Comment 11 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (chunky):
>>Yeah, give out our names, and I should have to tell other people who I voted for President. That's nobody's business but my own. <<
Apparently this last part of your post is totally irrelevant if you live in Florida :)
ANN abuse : Comment 12 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Tinman on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Darrin):
No, it means he's already regretting voting Bush ;)
ANN abuse : Comment 13 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Tinman):
Don't even: I am in Floria and I voted for Bush:
No insanity here;-)
ANN abuse : Comment 14 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (chunky):
Real men don't hide behind a computer. 'nuff said:-)
ANN abuse : Comment 15 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (redrumloa):
Yeah they hide behind expensive toys (cars and the likes), to cover up for other sh't ;-)
And yeah, i can only pity those who voted for Bush :-)
ANN abuse : Comment 16 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Cockroach on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (skal):
I would just like to say that, although I have been occasionally nervous, anxious, and even downright concerned with the direction that Amiga Inc was going with the Amiga community at large, I have always kept an open mind, and tried to ask semi-intelligent questions until I think I've got a pretty good grasp on what's going on.
It is unfortunate that there are those out there, even within our own community, who use the relative anonymity of the Internet to mud-sling, slander, insult, or say stuff that they would never have the backbone to say in persson to someone's face. But, malcontents are everywhere, and we just have to learn to brush them off like the annoying little parasitic insects they are.
I would also like to present the probability that not all of these malfeasants are Amigans, or have ever even touched an Amiga. Chances are, many of these people are nothing more than script kiddies who tripped across the site, and saw it as an opportunity to stir up the hate and discontent that they so often live for. Today's youth have oftem been portrayed as vindictive, angry kids completely lacking in any moral fiber, concept of discipline and respect for others, and direction in life in general. My own opinion, personally, I believe this is what happens when bleeding-heart liberals succeed in wiping away any trace of God and religion from the public eye. But, I digress.
The point I am trying to make is that we, as a community of Amigans, need to stand up and unite. Not everyone will agree with the direction we are going, and we are all certainly welcome to voice out dissent within the privacy of private Amiga mailing lists (so long as the criticism is constructive in nature). But in public forums, WE NEED TO BE UNITED IN OUR BELIEFS! This image of unity, all by itself, will have a major impact on anyone, particularly non-Amigans, who come in looking to start trouble. Even the dumbest, most loud-mouthed script kiddie knows that if he mouths off in a room full of like-minded people, he's likely to get slaughtered.
And a note to those who's mantra is "Amiga sucks", tell us <i>why</i> it sucks - in a positive, constructive way. If you actually have a bona fide issue with Amiga, your constructive criticism could actually help determine the direction we as a community go.
As with all other things in life, The Golden Rule applies here.
ANN abuse : Comment 17 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
That's fine for me.
ANN abuse : Comment 18 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
My posts are sometimes anonymous.
Revealing news can often annoy people. Also things need to be said about about powers out there who you would not wish to fall out with.
Openness is usually better though. We don't know who is reading. Potential employers, customers, clients. Use your real name and be known and there can be all types of benefits.
Also, Amiga posts are only part of our lives and we should be proud of whatever else we are doing.
ANN abuse : Comment 19 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by chunky on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (redrumloa):
And redrumloa is your real name? Give me a break.
Yeah, "real men" sit at a computer and talk about Amiga. That's rich, dude.
ANN abuse : Comment 20 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by maybe_chunky_maybe_not on 13-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Darrin):
>If people know it one person making multiple comments and that that person leaps
>from one side of the fence to the other in a deliberate attempt to piss off boths parties involved in a debate then we'll all know that
>the person is a shit-stiring twat and should be ignored. Alternatively, someone might appreciate that person's point of view and
>perhaps pay more attention to other comments made in different articles.
My point is that you're not entitled to know this either way. Sure, if I really want to be taken seriously I would have better luck if I remain consistent and post under a consistent nickname, but that's my choice, not anyone else's, except Christian Kemp's, because it's CK's board.
You wrote "there is no excuse (apart from memory lapse) to post anonymously" and I say that using a nickname IS anonymous, expecially on a board that does not require a login account to post.
> Of course, these are personal view which are shared by the majority of the ANN posters.
So now you know the majority of ANN posters views? If you're right, then it's a lucky guess, but you don't actually "know".
> You're entitled to your view and you're
> entitled to protect your privacy, however sniping at people from out of the shadows is chickenshit and a lot easier than sitting
> down at a table with a beer and having a debate. :)
Well of course, but that's the perrogative of the poster and ultimately the owner of the board, not the readers. A reader might think a poster is chickenshit regardless. What a reader thinks is of no concern to the poster.
Basically, I'm saying that there are many people who are too sensitive. When they are offended, they want to institute rules to prevent someone from offending them. When that happens, ideas are repressed. I think we agree here.
Posting under someone's real name is fraudulent. Posting under someone's official nickname, a name that replaces the real name, is also fraudulent. But without a login system, how would you know either way?
Finally, posting anonymously, by itself, is cautious, not spineless. Posting slanderous or fraudulent drek is spineless. It's this black-and-white judgemental opinion crap ("it's either this way or that way and there's no in-between") I object to. But, that's my problem if I object. Judge away.
ANN abuse : Comment 21 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (maybe_chunky_maybe_not):
>>My point is that you're not entitled to know this either way. Sure, if I really want to be taken seriously I would have better luck if I remain consistent and post under a consistent nickname, but that's my choice, not anyone else's, except Christian Kemp's, because it's CK's board.<<
As you may have read in CK's comment above, the "prefered" manner of posting on his group IS to use an identifier of either a name or nickname. Nobody is going to force you to do it, it's just polite. Why else do we shake hands and give our names when introduced to strangers for the first time?
>>You wrote "there is no excuse (apart from memory lapse) to post anonymously" and I say that using a nickname IS anonymous, expecially on a board that does not require a login account to post. <<
I agree that a log-in would be a nice option, but some people dislike the idea of log-ins because they feel that this is an invasion of their privacy. I guess what we have are three classes of anonymous - class one uses unique nickname to establish a cyber-identity, others (like yourself) use a variety of nicknames to provide a link to previous remarks on a linked theme, and finally others just use "anonymous" or uses someone's identity to cause discontent. It's this third group that's the problem especially when the use this "mask" for personal attacks and to spread lies.
>>So now you know the majority of ANN posters views? If you're right, then it's a lucky guess, but you don't actually "know". <<
Unfortunately I don't and perhaps CK could have a poll on this issue. My statement was based on my observations on actual postings. I would estimate that 75% of the posters can be "uniquely identified" and therefore make up a "majority" of the posters and thus I can deduce that the "majority" agree with this view :)
>>My point is that you're not entitled to know this either way. Sure, if I really want to be taken seriously I would have better luck if I remain consistent and post under a consistent nickname, but that's my choice, not anyone else's, except Christian Kemp's, because it's CK's board. <<
I agree again except where information is false. I believe everyone has the right to know their accuser, and if the accuser isn't prepared to stand in the light then he should keep his gob shut.
>>Well of course, but that's the perrogative of the poster and ultimately the owner of the board, not the readers. A reader might think a poster is chickenshit regardless. What a reader thinks is of no concern to the poster. <<
It's still not polite though. The poster MUST care what the reader thinks otherwise he wouldn't bother to post in the first place.
>>Basically, I'm saying that there are many people who are too sensitive. When they are offended, they want to institute rules to prevent someone from offending them. When that happens, ideas are repressed. I think we agree here.
Yep, we agree :) But I also think that people have a right to be sensitive to false and personal attacks. I like to think I have a thick skin, but attack my honour and my skin turns green and my shirt splits :)
>>Posting under someone's real name is fraudulent. Posting under someone's official nickname, a name that replaces the real name, is also fraudulent. But without a login system, how would you know either way? <<
Agreed again and this is why the abuse hurts so much. The posting system on ANN is a "honour" systems and relies on TRUST. If everyone in the world placed personal honour first abd trusted everyone then the planet would be a nicer place. The reason we have armies is because there are some evil little bastards out there that just love to cause trouble and need to be beaten with a large stick.
>>Finally, posting anonymously, by itself, is cautious, not spineless. Posting slanderous or fraudulent drek is spineless. It's this black-and-white judgemental opinion crap ("it's either this way or that way and there's no in-between") I object to. But, that's my problem if I object. Judge away. <<
In your case (and many others) I agree (again). In retrospect I also feel that I may have directed that spineless remark against you unfairly and unjustly. Re-read the earlier part of this post and understand that the "spinless" ones are the malicious third group I mentioned and not the first or second. Sorry about that :)
ANN abuse : Comment 22 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
I started reading this and it made me want to mop the kitchen floor.
ANN abuse : Comment 23 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (chunky):
And your real name is chunky? What's your point? I put a real email addy and a commonly known nick(redrumloa). Different than a total annonymous. If you want my home address I can do that to. Difference is I put a ;-) in my message and you didn't. Meaning I am being humorous and you are just a dickhead.
ANN abuse : Comment 24 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Cockroach):
*sigh*
Accept diverse opinions or you wont get a forum - just an endless stream of propaganda. Ever seen that advert by Ridley Scott for Apple based on 1984? Ever seen 1984?
"Malcontent, Parasite.." Ive never been so angry about bigotry since the Gulf War when people were branded "Peacemongers" just because
(1) They do not agree with the killing of other human beings just to resolve an issue.
(2) They pointed out the western intervention was due to this being an oil supplier AND the power involved had less capable arnaments, less food and a weary army that could easily be beaten. See the same loudmouths stand up against China? I think not as China has more nukes than any other country in the world and a far more capable fighting force.
So, before you start labelling people - ask yourself how YOU would feel being so labelled yourself just for having a differing opinion.
ANN abuse : Comment 25 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Anonymous):
>>(2) They pointed out the western intervention was due to this being an oil supplier AND the power involved had less capable arnaments, less food and a weary army that could easily be beaten. See the same loudmouths stand up against China? I think not as China has more nukes than any other country in the world and a far more capable fighting force. <<
"Capable fighting force"??? If an unarmed, prop driven recon aircraft can down one of their advanced fighter jets then imagine what a F15 with a few sidewinders could do to their airforce :)
ANN abuse : Comment 26 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Wilson on 14-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Christian - It might be time to liase with some of the better known names in the scene directly, and only accept posts from them to your normal email address (or a "special" one) - I know some may be spoofed, but thats likely to be rare if the email address is not a publicised one.
Perhaps you could adjust your scripts to reject posts using their names, because they haven`t done it by agreed channels.
Perhaps if a hotmail address was set up (or similar), so that anyone helping out with the site could access it (give them the login/password), to save all the added pressure being on you...
ANN abuse : Comment 27 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Christer Jansson on 16-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Christian Kemp):
I think that is a good idea!
If people use very bad words in a comment, it should never be added.
And if there are some really nasty people trying to sabotage, in any
way the ANN environment, I think they should be banned from this site.
That last thing could be tricky to implement since some unfriendly
people could try to lock out innocent persons... but I think it
could be worth it.
ANN abuse : Comment 28 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by Christer Jansson on 16-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Christian Kemp):
My last comment should be refered to comment number 6 (not 5)
ANN abuse : Comment 29 of 29ANN.lu
Posted by XybeX on 17-Apr-2001 22:00 GMT
Life is full of dumbasses and so is the internet, evrything from cheating in multiplayer games to posting dumb stuff while using other peoples names.
When will people grow up (and get a life?)
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