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[Rant] Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4ANN.lu
Posted on 06-Jun-2003 11:32 GMT by takemehomegrandma114 comments
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Some days ago there were a thread on amiga.org that discussed the future; who of the alternatives in the Amiga OS market would be the dominant winner? I have thought about that and come to a conclusion of which you can read below. This text also involves the Amiga brand, the future of A1 and OS4, as well as OS4 on Pegasos.

Letís begin with takemehomegrandmas encyclopedia of computer platform creation. :-)

A computer platform is a complex puzzle consisting of many pieces:

To get going you first need the most basic pieces: an operating system (MorphOS) and hardware (Pegasos). These pieces are the very core foundation. Then you need the application/games piece (Aminet, Commercial Amiga/MOS software, and the Super Bundle), but in order to get that piece you have to have the developers piece (Phoenix, Sceners, The Community, etc), but in order to get that piece you must begin to lay down the first pieces of the puzzle (Betatester1/2, Early versions of MorphOS, SDK) and drawing all kinds of creative people towards the platform by making the whole thing visible through the "visability piece" (Visiting trade shows, Public Reviews (OS News, etc), Press and TV, Spreading the word on the community forums). The previously mentioned "developers piece" is essential, and the end result will benefit if this piece is as big as possible (Bring as many other OS'es as possible to the platform and enjoy the cross-fertilization).

Laying this part (the initial construction) of the puzzle is a bit of "which came first, the chicken or the egg". All the pieces are necessary but each piece rely on the other ones allready being there. Therefore you have look at this part of your "puzzling" as a circle of events. But it's not enough to just identify the pieces. To lay the puzzle you need to get organized (PriceWaterhouseCoopers sets up a corporate structure), a great deal of money (Genesi), management (Genesi, Professional external management consultants (can't remember their name)), active support from happy community members (us enthusiastic MOS followers ;-) ), and someone holding it all together and on the right course (BBRV).

After "circling the events" for a while, you will have a solid base for your platform. This is not the end goal. This is the beginning. Let's call this base the "input market" which is a melting pot of community (developers, enthusiasts, alternative computer users, etc), technology, creativity, fun, and business opportunities for everyone interested in making a buck. The end goal, where the big money is and where everyones creative efforts will be channeled to, will be the "output market", and this is the second (and most interesting) part of the puzzle.

What is the "output market" then? Is it the Wintel workstation market? Is it the 1985 computer market that we all remember with joy as the "Amiga era"? I'm afraid that the latter is gone forever (or rather: it became the todays alternative computer market, one of the components of our "input market"). And I think it won't be the wintel kind of market either. That market is overcrowded and is actually shrinking. The MHz race is over. The companies there are in chrisis because they are stuck in the old way of thinking. The IT world is changing now, into something that many calls the "convergence market". My guess is that the future end-user "computing" products is yet to be formed. They might come in several shapes. Many peoples reasoning of "the future of the Amiga/Pegasos" is based on the assumption that there will forever be the same structure of Platforms and "Computers" as we know them today. But what if the future computing products needs to be more context driven, with focus on the customers needs rather than on the actual tower box itself? The computer market has up to now been product oriented. This is about to change, and I think that is obvious.

I think it's amusing to read comments like "Genesi have no future since they only sold 600 units", "how can you expect any developer to be excited over a 600 people userbase", "How can you sell your hardware so cheap", "How can you *give* away the OS" and stuff like that. Hilarious! But these kind of comments is made from the assumption that the "input market" is the final goal. And to many of us people "living" in this input market, it *might be* the end goal and the only important thing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Have fun! :-) But one has to remember that to keep the fire under this melting cup alive (that is: to keep bringing in interesting developers' technology as the PegasosTwo among other, future, devices) one has to succeed on the "output market". STB's, the Psylent, the mobile Eclipsis and various incarnations of these (and other) devices will be a key. That's where the future is secured, not by selling 600 units of Pegasos (or even three times that many, if you know what I mean ;-) ).

And since the OS and the developers' hardware are such key pieces of the puzzle, and the future dollars from the output market is *so totally dependent* on them, don't you think it makes sense to make it as easy as possible for the community in the "input market" to get ahold of them? To make the obstacles to join the evolution as small as possible, so to say? If you look at the OS, it's just one of many components that makes any of the products on the output market, and it only makes sense in combination with the others. Therefore you could make it totally free for the input market. Heck, upload the OS to Kazaa, DC++, and the corporate website to make it *really* easy for people to download it. The wider spread the OS is on developer desktops in the input market, the better for the future convergence products on the output market. Any dongles in this context is utter madness. So is any $8000 motherboards. That only makes sense if you look at the input market as the final goal (and whatís the future in that way of thinking?).

There are (rather: were) one similarity between Amiga Inc (2 years ago) and Genesi. They both see (AInc: saw) business opportunities in the computer convergence market. But the similarities stops there.

Amiga Inc started out in the peak of the dot-com era. They wrote a busines plan with a lot of hype (you only have to look back in time a little on the net to see what I mean. Everything they said was spoken in "dot-com"-ish) and got a Venture Capitalist to fund a company. They licensed some IP from tao (their view of entering this market), and then they invested a lot of time and all that money in ... well, nothing!! Towards the end they decided to try another approach and handed over the AmigaOS to Hyperion and the exclusive right to Amiga branded hardware to Eyetech. That is, they split the key puzzle pieces and gave them away in two separate directions, each by itself. That's all Amiga Inc really achieved in those years. What remains is two separate pieces of a potential puzzle.

Genesi has begun to lay the first part of the puzzle described above. They have released products on the input market and done a lot of other things, but IMO they have not reached the "start line" yet. It will take some more of that "circleing" to get there, but it's no doubt they will get there, because they have allready secured all the pieces under the same umbrella, and they have everything it takes to finish it. They have left the locker room, entered the track, and is beginning to warm up serously before the race. But that doesn't stop them from allready prepearing the route for the second part of the puzzle, the part when the race actually begins.

This part of the puzzle is still kind of vague for us in the community, but some information has been released some day ago. It's about the output market. There has to be some products like hardware (STB's, mobile devices like Eclipsis, etc), OS (MorphOS), Applications and games (Phoenix, Atari), and whatever input Nolan Bushnell and his www.uwink.com brings. There also has to be distribution channels (Atari, Plexuscom, Genesi resellers, etc), a strong brand (Atari), and capital (Atari, Genesi). This part of the puzzle is essential for securing the future development of "our" platform. And IMO it looks kind of promising :-).

Some people also seems to think that OS4 and the A1 are competitors to MorphOS and the Pegasos. I think not! Remember, the race is on the *output market*. If Amiga Inc had played their card differently a couple of years back, then perhaps there would have been a "red puzzle" slowly materializing for this market by now. But that is not the case. Two lonely, isolated pieces of an abandoned puzzle is materializing.

The A1 piece is such an uninteresting piece of hardware that it won't even succeed on the *input* market. OK, some fanatics will buy it because it is said to be the only way to run OS4 at decent speed. That's it!

OS4, will only be sold to some CSPPC owners and the fanatics that buy the A1. That's it! But OS4 has far better chances to succeed on the alternative computer market (our "input market") than the A1, *IF* Hyperion manage to get the OS running on some interesting hardware.

Some people thinks that Genesi should pay money and accept the conditions to get an "Amiga" license. That won't happen, there is no reason for them to do that. The brand has been dead for 10 years or so, except in our little part of the alternative computer market. And now there is this new Atari plan, where the brand only seems to be minor part. Sure the Amiga brand could mean something to get more momentum on the *input* market; more developers attracted to the platform. But they allready have momentum, and the interest for the platform is increasing anyway, much thanks to all the OS'es that's being ported.

It lies within *Hyperions* interest to get their OS running on interesting hardware, and this is nothing that Genesi should be paying *them* for (or rather: the Amiga Inc corpse)! If they can't get their OS to run on interesting hardware, then nobody will use their OS (other than some hundred fanatics). The CSPPC is *NOT* interesting. It's old and slow now. RIP. The A1 is *NOT* interesting, it's hilarious price tag is only one of it's problems when compared to the PegasosTwo. RIP. Hyperion is trapped and their OS effort is riscing to suffocate in it's incubator. But they *could still* try to make their effort pay off on the alternative computer market ("our" input market) via the more sensible PegasosTwo platform. I'm sure they are more than welcome to do that. Lot's of OS'es are/will be running on that platform. The platform is allready gaining attention from international press (even TV) and it will attract all kind of "alternative geeks" (;-)). The resulting cross-fertilization will benefit everyone involved, and everyone is invited. :-)

And I'm sure that Hyperion would really have done this if it would have been possible. But here is the problem. Remember that Eyetech has exclusive right to Amiga branded hardware (but only the HW), so if Hyperion would bring the amiga brand to the Pegasos hardware there would be a trademark infringement/contract violation. This trademark split is what stopping OS4 on Pegasos, not Hyperion and certainly not Genesi (OS4 on Pegasos would only boost the creativity on the Pegasos platform, *and* OS4). The A1 could have benefitted from running MorphOS some six months ago too. It would have been a lot easier for Eyetech to sell that board with an Amiga related OS instead of Linux. But that would have been impossible for the same reason (Hyperion holds the right to the Amiga brand for the OS).

The A1 and OS4 are floating alone on a big ocean. Amiga Inc was planning to lay a puzzle using these two pieces (among lots of others), but didn't want them to start puzzling too much on their own (*must* be a threesome). So AInc tied their hands behind their backs through the conditions of the deal and tied them firmly to their own body. The three depend on each other. Problem is, Amiga Inc is not floating anymore. And they are still tied together. It would be nice if Hyperion would find a way to get around this. I am not particulary interested in the OS4 myself (many of the "reds" think that all Pegasos owners are dying to get OS4; perhaps some, but not all!), but I would try it out among all the other OS'es on this platform if it became available!

When amiga.org had their interview with Ben Hermans, I submitted some questions to find out Bens view of the future, how they would succeed, how anyone thinking about investing time and money into products for their OS would be rewarded. I wanted to know something about their strategies. To me, the future (in the "output market") is more interesting and fundamental than wether the OS will have a CDDA filesystem upon it's initial release (and that kind of questions). Unfortunately, my questions were not forwarded to Ben (perhaps another time?). I asked the same questions to BBRV, and it will be interesting to see their answeres (if the questions gets forwarded, BTW, what happened to that interview?).

OK, debate! :-)

Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 1 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 09:33 GMT
Wow, what a long text! Well I was bored, OK?? :-)

Slow day at the office today ...
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 2 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 06-Jun-2003 09:57 GMT
Intelligent and extensive analysis, though a bit biased I'm afraid. I could elaborate *ALOT* on this if I only had the time. I'm afraid I don't have that at the moment but I'll get back to this topic as soon as I do.

Until then, keep those intelligent debates coming! We've seen way too little of those lately.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 3 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2003 09:59 GMT
Your reasoning appears to be "I like MOS/Pegasos and therefore the A1/OS4 has no future, except for the hare-brained fanatics who buy it".

Not really a well-argued discussion of the futures of the alternative platforms, is it?
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 4 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (samface):
> though a bit biased I'm afraid.

I *am* biased :-)

> I'm afraid I don't have that at the moment but I'll get back to this topic as
> soon as I do.

Looking forward to it! :-)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 5 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by tokai on 06-Jun-2003 10:12 GMT
OS4 on Pegasos? I whould buy it. :)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 6 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 06-Jun-2003 10:18 GMT
Your post is well-argued. One must of course only see it as a very biased
opinion of the present and future - but as such it's good and I look forward to
someone putting togeher a similarly well-reasoned post debating the other side
of the coin.

The only thing I find unnessecary and uncalled for is to go about calling people
making another hardware choice than you "fanatics". That's not having an
opinion. That's being intolerant. Also the tone you have of stating certain
things as "facts" and not "opinions" is also bad style and even though its
obvious to me you draw people over the same slate just because of your own
preferences it might not be obvious for the rest of this international community
and is something to avoid when wanting to instill a seasoned debate as seems to
be your intention here. It deviates unnessecarily from your otherwise well
thought-out arguments.
.
SlimJim
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 7 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Anonymous):
@ Anonymous

Do you agree in my view of "input markets" and "output markets"? How far in the creation of an input market did Amiga Inc reach? What plans did they have for an output market? What red products will there be for the output market and how will they be produced? what what resources and what management do they have? Who is putting the red puzzle together? To sum up: What future does it have?

> Your reasoning appears to be "I like MOS/Pegasos and therefore the A1/OS4 has
> no future, except for the hare-brained fanatics who buy it".

That was not my point. What I was trying to illustrate was the fact that A1/OS4 and the Pegasos/MorphOS is playing in completely different leagues, and they have different end goals. Therefore *it doesn't matter* whether I like the A1 or not. If you don't get my point, try reading the text again!
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 8 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by mahen on 06-Jun-2003 10:31 GMT
Oh noooo ! It's too long !!!
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 9 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (SlimJim):
> Your post is well-argued.

Thank you! :-)

> I look forward to someone putting togeher a similarly well-reasoned post
> debating the other side of the coin.

Samface is on the move! :-)

> The only thing I find unnessecary and uncalled for is to go about calling
> people making another hardware choice than you "fanatics". That's not having
> an opinion. That's being intolerant.

OK, I'm sorry for that. It was not my intention of hurting anyones feeling and if I did that, then I apologize. I wanted to illustrate my view that the current A1+OS4 offer is only interesting to a very limited group of people, and this was my somewhat pragmatic way of doing that.

> Also the tone you have of stating certain things as "facts" and not "opinions"

Well, my opinion is that these are facts. ;-)
Please feel free to state why they are not, using other "facts" if you want!
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 10 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2003 10:54 GMT
Wow! People with a lot of time on their hands.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 11 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 10:57 GMT
I fond the part about puzzles very interesting, hardware goes with software etc. I impression is that MorphOS + Pegasus option not matching puzzle brisk if you will, in my view MorphOS is not fully integrated solution, and you can say the brick donít match, the Pegasus II might be better the Pegasus I, I can say the AmigaOne do not match my likings due to via686b chipset I have head one computer with that chipset do NOT like an otter one? While AmigaOS4.0 is fully legacy integrated system (NO box design and memory protected system memory),
I think the OS deserves a better computer, so the brisk donít match,

If you got my whish then I like to se MorphOS desktop on top of AmigaOS4.0, ExecSG kernel and I like to se ExecSG running on Pegasus II.

Well the MorphOS desktop might need some fixing, need to become more user-friendly from what I have been reading, MIME etc.

It might be interesting if they sold the desktop independent from MorphOS.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 12 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 06-Jun-2003 10:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (tokai):
>OS4 on Pegasos? I whould buy it. :)

I would too. I think most Pegasos owners would. Its a bigger market for Hyperion if they have the good sense to make it happen.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 13 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:03 GMT
A welll written piece of text you gave us there, clearly some tought went in it.

your view of the future is in the line of what i envision to happen in the next coming decades, but there are key points with wich i don't agree.

For starters, the "only 600 machines etc" comment. It's a fact of life that FOR NOW, this is the number in circulation, i'm sure this will change, but if Hyperion were to support pegasos hardware, it wouldn't be the Peg1, it's a dead market (hardware wise) and since the Peg2 uses a different Northbridge it's pointless to port to the peg1 anyway (in view of the Peg2)

Also, i don't see MOS (or AOS4) in it's current form be able to create a decent convergence platform, ALOT of work needs to be done on this field, and theoreticly, both OSes can be adapted for a wider range of hardware.

AOS4 isn't a dead concept, it might appear that way to you (no Quark kernel, this not expandable, this reasonning is bogus if you ask me, it's just a different appprouch then MOS) and when you say that the A1 hardware is worthless, then again i disagree, it might be more expensive then the Pegasos hardware, granted, but that doesn't bother me, i decide on wich hardware to buy compared to what it provides me with, the A1 provides me with linux (not needed for me, although i like PPC) and AOS4 (needed for me). For me, the Amiga has always been about AOS, and in that line i consider AOS4 superior to MOS.

I won't defend Ainc, because i have no clue what they've been doing lately, haven't been in touch with them for ages, but i wouldn't write them off yet, stranger things have happened :)

Also, M$ has been trying to get their hooks in this aswell (the convergence market) and are a force to be reconned with, it'll take more then genesi & atari to defeat them, and from that point of view i'd say the most likely to win the race is Symbian.

The future surely will hold lots of suprises for us, and, while i might not always come over that way, i AM excited about it (computing & the market in general).

For now however, i'm looking at the "input market" (to use your terminology) with big eyes, because i consider AOS4 a decent product, and i hope it succeeds (and CSPPC owners will be pleased with it, believe me ;)), i know the A1 will sell alot more boards when AOS4 is released, and there is potential in the technology, if it can be adapted for a large enough market.

Just my toughts :)

Cheers

PS: For the sake of the thread, anyone, don't start flaming eachothers ok? And don't mention anything your not able or willing to proof, Alkis & Samface are watching ;)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 14 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 06-Jun-2003 11:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (takemehomegrandma):
> Well, my opinion is that these are facts. ;-)
> Please feel free to state why they are not, using other "facts" if you want!

I know too few objective facts about the future - things you obviously know
better than me judging from your tone of certainty. So be it. But since I don't
feel I have have all the data from behind the scenes, all the parameters I feel
more than reluctant any sort of personal choice as being "true" or "factual". If
you will, my "belief" is that "facts" need no "opinion" for them to be facts.
That's the reason I rarely comment in fora on these matters; there are few real
facts to base your opinions on and a whole lot of rumour, agenda and
misconceptions - on all "sides".

I have no problem with people having different opinions though. Only when people
start talking about "facts", my scientific nerve starts itching.I put a lot
higher demand on facts than I do on opinions.
.
SlimJim
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 15 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Kjetil):
I think you'll like the AOS4 desktop just asmuch, although the default won't look like the MOS one, they can probably be made to look simular

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 16 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 11:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Kjetil):
@ Kjetil

We could discuss which OS is most clean, "integrated" (?), which desktop is best (Ambient/Workbench), etc. This is perhaps what most of us techies are interested in. But still, this is only one of the pieces in a complex puzzle, and if we are going to discuss future sucess we have to look at *the whole* puzzle from a Helicopter perspective, and not on a level like "which themes are available for Ambient in version 1.3". Any discussions about the future must take the big picture in account.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 17 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by MiniBobF on 06-Jun-2003 11:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (tokai):
"OS4 on Pegasos? I whould buy it. :)"

I would too... the current stagnant state the "Amiga & Compatible" market finds itself in means we won't see it. I hope the market changes for the better and allows OS4 on Pegasos.

To Genesis it's an advantage (as they're a hardware company, selling the Peg, as opposed to MorphOS), and to Amiga as they're a software company (of sorts) and have showed effort (but minimal) to provide a platform FOR that software.

Neil Thomas, AKA MiniBobF
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 18 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by MiniBobF on 06-Jun-2003 11:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (MiniBobF):
Arse, had a pub lunch and noticed my mistakes in the above message. Can't be bothered to correct them. Just thought I'd say incase anyone wishes to pick me up on my misspelling of Genesi.

Neil Thomas, AKA MiniBobF
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 19 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (takemehomegrandma):
Sure, i'm willing to debate about this :) Like i said in an earlier post, i've done alot of musing of what "computing" will be like in the future (and therefor i have a pretty well founded opinion about it)

What do you think are the nearterm goals of Genesi? (Nearterm goals being the next 2 years eg)
How do you think they will implement MOS on things like, eg, PDA or mobile technology?
How do you see "the whole" fitting together? (a computer, pda, mobile (or a mobile with integrated pda or vice versa), digital media, 'net and gaming?

The biggest oponent at this time is SymbianOS, however, they lack the power in the desktop area (wich M$ has, but M$ is unable to enter this market or future market yet).
Another contentant is Apple.
Genesi is clearly trying to steer into that market aswell
And offcourse, good ol ainc (don't ask me how they might pull it off, i dunno)

Lets start with this :)

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 20 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Amon_Re):
@ Amon_Re

Thank you for your thoughts! :-)

But as you say yourself, much of what you wrote in comment 13 is based on only two of the pieces in the puzzle, and they are both in the "input market". The initial post was about future success, and this involves much more than this! But the "input market" is what many of us are here for, and I'm sure that OS4 will be a great product!
:-)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 21 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 11:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (SlimJim):
@ SlimJim

OK, I don't have any data from behind the scenes, and I am not "Saida" (you are a Swede, huh? ;-) ), so I know nothing about the future. What I stated was opinions, but I tried to discuss some of them. They can of course be debated, but I don't think that any of them was completely out of the line.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 22 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 06-Jun-2003 11:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Amon_Re):
@grandma

a) You really mean $8000-mobos ? Or is there a "0" to much ?
b) I'm not so sure wether Hyperion are so unhappy with the Eyetech-monopoly.
It means that noone could buy_a_Peg_now_to_run_OS4_later, and than find out
that he doesn't really need OS4 (cos MorphOS is good enough).
They haven't even found the resources to get OS4 on the A1 by now (and when we are in nitpicking-mode : not even the CS-PPC), how do you think they could have
done another HW ? The licence gives a perfect excuse to blame that on Genesi
(or any other company making PPC-HW).

@Amon_Re
Yes, only 600 Peg1s, but don't forget who owns them, lots of bedroom-coders and
other acive members of the community, and those are allways in short supply.

But than it is quite likely that most of these boards have allready been replaced
with Peg2s by the time OS4 is really ready to compete with MorphOS (on legacy-free
HW that is).

And grandma is 100% right in one thing, both sides will need to find a way out of
this community, cos even if they could sell 5000 boards, it would still be far to
little. Somehow I doubt that a name will be enough to sell $800-mobos in the real
world, and sofar I haven't seen any info from Hyperion, how they are gonna break out
of this, and even more important who is gonna invest millions needed for. That cash
is clearly not there atm (Hyperion allready needed to do some "paid work").
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 23 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (takemehomegrandma):
I forgot how many pieces your puzzle has, but i know that Hyperion is also working on getting a third piece in it :) (developers)

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 24 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 06-Jun-2003 11:24 GMT
I got to go now. My "slow time" is over and I have to attend a meeting. I'll be back, hasta la vista!
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 25 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 06-Jun-2003 11:24 GMT
Who do you expect will read this way-too-long text? Not me! ;)
Provide a summary...
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 26 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Kronos):
I disagree on your point about Hyperion lacking the resources to get AOS4 on the current hardware, because most work is already done.

Yes, Hyperion has a smaller budget then Genesi, but does that mean they'll fail?
No, it doesn't :)

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 27 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 06-Jun-2003 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (takemehomegrandma):
Fair enough.
.
SlimJim (And yes, I know who Saida is/was) ;-)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 28 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Amon_Re):
Actually, come to think of it, the fact that Hyperion is a small company it also means they are very flexible, so i do think they have a great future ahead of them

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 29 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 11:38 GMT
From an static point of view there grater interest in AmigaOS4.0 then MorphOS, and the goes for AmigaOne and Pegasus, now if we could select freely what type of hardware to use the pull might de different when it comes to Pegasus II and AmigaOne, then again it might that they all ready are working on Amiga Tow or what ever. So the pull might again de changed.

Way do folks select one option over an otter option this is the question you most ask your self, to under stand the big picture you most understand the smaller picture is always linked to larger one, I agree with you that itís a bit sticky for Hyperion when it comes to selecting hardware for AmigaOS4.0, biz can complicate things that should not be an issue, if the biz world real lessen to the customers the hole issue can be solved it all boils down to how is doing what really.

I donít se the problem whit poring AmigaOS4.0 to any none IP hardware, way canít the Amiga OS be soled separately from the hardware? Okay so the hardware is not Amiga hardware butt the computer is an Amiga compatible computer.

I think the biggest reason for not going Pegasus for OS4.0 is that they wonít to have software support before they start competing whit MorphOS on the same hardware, just think if every new program that exists for MorphOS or is going to be supported and not AmigaOS supported then no one will boot AmigaOS4.0 and then MorphOS will automatically win, how ever if you stick to AmigaOne for a year and wait for all the goody-software to be port to AmigaOS4.0 then the race might be different. Donít forget that there is an bigger interest for AmigaOS4.0/AmigaOne then MorphOS/Pegasus(I/II)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 30 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 06-Jun-2003 11:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (SlimJim):
SlimJim said:

>>The only thing I find unnessecary and uncalled for is to go about calling people
>>making another hardware choice than you "fanatics". That's not having an
>>opinion. That's being intolerant.

I have to comment on this, since its a language discussion. You say it
is unnecessary to call people supporting the eyetech platform 'fanatics.'
I agree, it isn't necessary. However, it is an opinion.

As for whether this opinion is one of an intolerant person, or
automatically marks one as intolerant, perhaps. But the word 'tolerant'
is one of those words like 'censorship' that is so emotionally charged,
it's often not a useful word, in my opinion.

A person should always have some respect for other people...but the word
tolerance goes beyond that to imply respect for ideas. And that is ridiculous!
Idea's should be opposed at times.

Take the example of a really racist remark. It's an idea that has to be opposed, and people are intolerant of such ideas, with good reason. People would call for the removal of such a poster, and the removal of their remarks. People who normally would state they are tolerant, would not be tolerant. Who believe in free speech, would call for censorship.

Most people agree then, that in that situation intolerant behaviour is called for...of course, pro-Amiga fanatics are not similar to racists, and should not be thought of in that light. Nevertheless, that example also goes to show,
that they are not treated in that light, and such intolerance was not called for. They were called out for making a bad decision, but no one called for their removal from discussions, no one calls for censorship of their remarks. So the 'intolerance' level
is limited to saying 'I find their ideas unreasonable'

That is an intolerant remark, on a technical level, but so what.
Whenever someone says 'I am right'...they imply an opposition viewpoint is wrong, but so what, thats the nature of an opinion piece. And
calling out that fact, is entirely unnecessary, nevertheless, it is only
saying out loud, what is implied in every opinion article.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 31 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Ben on 06-Jun-2003 11:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (takemehomegrandma):
I for one have been around Amigas for about 16 years, was so interested in getting OS4 running I coughed up $50, but I have left it at that - I aint buying anything (same goes for the "other side") until I can buy a boxed copy and see a few reviews running on hardware that I can buy easily.

Until then we all just have to be patient for both sides to come up with comparable products that are not just "geek" purchases - I mean, its not as if we havent waited before.

On another note (that isnt a million miles from where we are now...) anyone recall the Sam Coupe or Russian Hobbit? :)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 32 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Kjetil):
To be fair you also have to say that that interrest comes from the current amiga community, outsiders might have a completely different view of this.

However, attracting "new blood" won't happen with MOS nor AOS4 in their current form without afew killer apps

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 33 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 06-Jun-2003 11:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Amon_Re):
@Amon_Re
Hyperion needed >1.5 years to get where they are now:
OS4_4_CSPPC ready to show, but not ready to sell.
And they needed to do "external" work to just get there.
Still a long way till OS4 is ready to be sold for/with the A1, and probraly
more "external" work in the meantime.

Small companies may be more flexible, but only if they are :
Not to small (there is just so much work 4 fulltime-workers can do).
Have the funding (without it they are not free to do what they want).

A longterm plan and "mental" resources are also mandatory, but discussing that
would be flame-territory ;)

When Eyetech found out that they needed a new BIOSm could Hyperion react flexible ?
No, they had to pull resorces from ExecSG/OS4 over to PPCBoot.
Same story when Petunia (and its intregration) was stalled after that guy got ill.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 34 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 06-Jun-2003 11:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Amon_Re):
> However, attracting "new blood" won't happen with MOS nor AOS4 in> their current form without afew killer apps MOS nor OS4 wont be a success in the desktop market. Not even if they had "killer apps". Maybe if Peg or A1 can sell 10000 desktop units (== success) then it could be different thing. But I doubt.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 35 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Kronos):
True, but that's mainly because they don't get the funding for Eyetech, nor Ainc (As far as i know, i'm their bookkeeper), also, the poor sales of their Amiga titles didn't leave much breathing room.

The fact that they've been able to get this far alone without a large financial backing proves my point more or less. They are survivors in a very difficult market.

Genesi has the adventage of having lots of capital (or so it would seem, i'm not their bookkeeper neighter ;P) and thus they can afford to push more developers, however, what happens if the well dries out? How flexible can they react? What about running contracts etc? This isn't an attack at Genesi, mind you, but just an illustration

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 36 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 12:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (itix):
Even 10k is way to few to break through.

In order to attract new blood, you need a unique selling point, something to attract people with, once you have that, you also need to maiintain that unique selling point, and expand on it.

For eg, lets asume that the machine & os have a renderer (to keep inline with the amiga's history) that runs extremely fast on G4's that surpasses anything the compesition has, then you must make sure the people who use those things know about it, and that the adantage remains.
Imagine what would happen if this happens, the machine would gain entry to a niche, once you have a niche you can expand further into other area's, but that's where the biggest threat is, namely M$.

I'm not saying this will happen, i know it's an unlikely scenario, but its an illustration of how they might be able break out of the current, neardead market.

Cheers

PS: I didn't use any names for the machine because this illustration applies to both, it's whats needed in order to break through in the desktop market
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 37 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 06-Jun-2003 12:27 GMT
> strong capital (Atari..)

LOL, Atari was Infogrames. They were dying (or they still are). They need "Enter the Matrix" to be the bestseller of all times to pay their multi-million debt.

They probably don't have the capital you're talking about.... Maybe.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 38 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by nOMAAM on 06-Jun-2003 12:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Elwood):
The BBRV inteview is pending ... can't help it.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 39 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 06-Jun-2003 12:59 GMT
@takemehomegrandma

It was nice to read your opinions and I think you should take note of SlimJims comments, but nothing I hadn't ever thought you weren't thinking ;-)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 40 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 13:38 GMT
If we look at big picture, form marketing point of view;

OS + Applications + Hardware + Markets + Advertisement + funding = Successes

OS:

Most user think about Amiga OS4.0

Applications:

Morph OS has the most native applications at the current state.

Hardware:

Pegasus it looks it's the public choose, if OS4.0 can run on it,
Amiga OS4.0 is not ready to compete with Morph OS it take time to
build the software foundation to even out the score.

Markets:

Gensi has big plans for Morph OS pocket books STB what ever,while no one knows where Amiga OS will be inn the future the only thing known about Amiga OS is that it can be adapted quickly to the selected market PPC, whit the new HAL system,if Amiga Inc is not in economical problems we my se SDK port
to AmigaOS4.x in short period of time, this improve the level of usage for AmigaOS, even if more software and support is needed. For MorphOS get inn to otter markets it has to present some thing unique, some thing you can't do with Windows, Linux or MacOS, one thing I can't understand way no one has targeted the TV market, I think the menu systems on TV are so bad, way not talk whit PHILPS or SONY, PANASONIC or some otter big names.

Advertisement:

you can't advertise some thing you do not know how to market, this is the problem for AmigaInc/Hyperion, while MorphOS is under development and has head some response and there for can take it easy they know where they won't with product, the problem is if the product is not appealing to the degree needed to win over otter options inn the market, as for example AmigaOS or Linux.

The systems are at current time targeting it self after current AmigaOS users and Linux users, and ex AmigaOS users, they need 3rd party developers to boost the platform, they need to go inn to devlopment of software for not target markets as well as there is some cases where the user need a Little more the just a web browser and email client.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 41 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Marktime on 06-Jun-2003 14:01 GMT
oh and one other thing, along these lines....

I think that the constructive criticism others gave about the article was insightful...probably one should only use the term 'fanatic' if they are intentionally trolling, as I often do.

Finally....I think its great, and good to see some of the pro-Amiga fanatics in here worrying about tolerance, when, in my opinion, other members
of that group....do not have such worries...its been a problem, many
people have called for both censorship and banning, which is a level of
intolerance well beyond simply stating 'I find your ideas foolish'

But that is off topic.

to the original topic, i thought the article was interesting, but I personally
find myself lacking in enthusiasm for such discussions. I suppose its
because I have grown tired of waiting for more results. I know both groups will produce...but until then, its
kind of boring. Even all of the dramatic news of the past two days pales
in comparison to the release of a good compiler...if we would only ever see
that....

Does that make sense? I mean there are a LOT of things that go into a
successful enterprise. They also include, following correct paperwork procedures, how do you hire someone correctly, making payroll on time,
having a safe and clean working environment. Reducing noise in the workplace.

What is the correct size of a cubicle?

You know what, its boring, like watching paint dry. I have respect for
those who do it, but on another level, I really don't care. I'm a computer geek.

Where the heck is that compiler?
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 42 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Ed on 06-Jun-2003 14:34 GMT
My brain fried on the first paragraph.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 43 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 15:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Marktime):
There is lots of programs for that type of task like Rubicon, visma and eport and lot of otters many of this systems are based on SQL and can easy be made front ends for Amiga, SQL is socket based system,

there are many type economy system, and storage system, service systems,
the problem is that this systems are targeted at one type of task, will come opp with one program can do all things, plug inn system, can be extended and by 3rd party's will help any approach this can be problem, the costumers all sow have some short to interaction this can help to update the costumer database and it can help with tracking of products inn and out, this is what most biz need, and you good email client and an system for document process thinking find the information when you need it, and let the document parse trow different check points,
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 44 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 06-Jun-2003 15:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Marktime):
@MarkTime

I have no intention to start arguing over semantics with you. My use of
"intolerant" refers to generally labelling a group of people as "fanatics" only
based on the choice of computer hardware they make. "Fanatic" is for me a very
negative word, but I suppose the mileage may vary.

Let's it end there. Semantics is an endless subject. Now get some more
lighter reading by moving over to amiga.org and read my dragon-descriptions in
the Pegasos-AOS4-thread bbrv turned into a tale about cavemen...:-)
.
SlimJim
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 45 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 15:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Ed):
it can be an indication that your nerve transmitter is growing to connect and build more advanced nerve network so your logical thinking you are expanded, you are getting smarter or you are lacking oxygen or you are in toxic environment, it can indicate you having an small stroke thats a bad thing, are you feeling dizzy?
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 46 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith on 06-Jun-2003 15:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (SlimJim):
Dang!

Who are you people and what have you done with the regular crowd? :)

This was an absolute pleasure to read - a long discussion about a controversial topic and there wasn't a single nasty remark.

Congratulations guys. You have pushed up my faith in the Amiga a fair few notches :D
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 47 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by MayhemMaybe on 06-Jun-2003 15:31 GMT
What I find amusing about the initial 'rant' (anbd I see some others have found it a sticking point) is tha tif 600 people buy a Pegasos they are an 'input market' (if I'm reading it right. But if 600 people buy an AmigaOne they are 'fanatics'. I think that's what is putting most people off.

Some food for thought. I don't think the Pegasos people gain anything from selling both parts of the puzzle. In fact, most evidence seems to point to the contrary. Although there are many compnaies out there that make money from hardware sales, what companies in the general purpose consumer computer market have been sucessfull doing both? Commodore, Atari, Texas Instruments, Tandy, Timex/Sinclair, and the list goes on and on. Only one is left, limping along, Apple. Meanwhile look at the raging successes. Microsoft. This is not saying a company can't be sucessfull. Commodore was for a long time. Palm was. Apple was. Another thing to think about is that you don't really want to give the software away for too long since, as Microsoft has shown, the lions share of the profits are in the software. Giving away the software is also no guarantee you will create an 'output market'. Look at Be. My guess for the future is that Morphos will eventually no longer be free. This might already be in the cards I don't know because I don't really follow Morphos/Pegasos that closely as I have no intention of buying one.

You see, I'm a fanatic.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 48 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Rob on 06-Jun-2003 15:40 GMT
@tmhg

Isn't it a bit misleading to mention Atari in your Article or does
Nolan Bushnell work for Atari (formerly Infogrames)?

Or is there a seperate deal that only some people know about? :)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 49 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 06-Jun-2003 15:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (MayhemMaybe):
I can name others: Palm, Microsoft (or did you forget the XBox and their PVR?), SGI, HP, Sun Microsystems, IBM...

My my, I'm seeing some big names there with even bigger pocketbooks.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 50 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 06-Jun-2003 16:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Nate Downes):
Hey TMHG, it looks like you took some time to do this and it seems there are plenty of thoughtful responses! Sorry, we have been too busy today. We will check in tomorrow.
:-)
R&B
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