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[Rant] Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see thingsANN.lu
Posted on 14-Aug-2003 19:58 GMT by Martin Heine48 comments
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Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck of Genesi on MorphOS-News.de:
"In the text that follows we have shared a few ideas. We decided to post them here because it was easier for us. The Corporate Staff, Core Development and WebDev Teams are too busy doing other things and this is really more of a message to the broader community of MorphOS and Pegasos users. We like posting our thoughts like this and we appreciate the feedback we get (here or directly by email). Thanks for all the interest and support."

The First Computer Revolution of the 21st Century

Change comes hard to people. It takes courage, dedication and intelligence to be different. Leaders change things. Most people do what everyone else does. Most people do not ask "why?" With change comes confusion. Sometimes confusion itself brings change, but most big changes come incrementally. Opportunity can also occur. It is a good thing to be ready when opportunity comes calling.

Microsoft and the hundreds of companies worldwide that make computers and applications that work with Windows have generated more opportunity through the Internet in a given period of time than arguably any other human creation. The telephone or television and the car or airplane, each introduced change, which led to other developments, but none has introduced as much potential for a massive shift in communication, education and commerce as the Internet. Incidentally, communication, education and commerce are the three most important ingredients that lead to change.

The Internet has introduced a new sort of freedom. Naturally, freedom can inspire both "good" and "bad". This is human nature and no rule or technology alone will change this. We have email; we have spam. We have file sharing; we have piracy. The question becomes: is the freedom to do what you want still freedom when it violates the freedom of some one else? If we talk about the future of the Internet we have to start there and this is where responsibility steps in. Freedom and responsibility work together. Said another way (by someone much smarter): vigilance is the price of liberty. Have we forgotten why homes have doors, or why doors have locks?

Surely, this is the study of Governments, but the Internet transcends government because it can theoretically involve all humanity. How to get so many, so different to agree in union to a code of behavior? Well, it could start here ­ with the Pegasos and MorphOS. There are machines in 34 countries. The first building blocks are in place.

We have to be different if we want to create change. We have to be more than a computer, an OS and applications. We have to be about change. At the same time, we have to be about the same things people have always done; we just have to do them in better ways ­ more conveniently, easier, faster. The car took us places faster. The airplane further and faster still. We can stay right where we are with the television and "be there". And, the telephone, well there is nothing new there ­ people talking to people. Now, people talk to each other with the convenience of not "being there" and from wherever they are.

So, where are we going with all this?!?!? :-D

Where we are. It is our feeling that change begins one person at a time. So each of you reading this can be part of the change. We have some plans for the near and mid-term future and a vision for what comes after, but we cannot do it all by ourselves. We are looking to create big changes and we need lots of people ready to propel and promote this change, but just before you think we are asking for charity, keep reading.

With the introduction of the Pegasos II we will be launching a number of old ideas in new ways. For example, the Pegasos II will come with MorphOS and the ever evolving and improving SuperBundle. We will not charge for the operating system and we will do everything we can to insure that the SuperBundle remains free to Pegasos owners. This means that we will favor an application that we can offer for free as part of the Pegasos. We want to extend this possibility as far as we can, not just for the "lite" version of an application, but for the fullest and latest release too. That goes for other operating systems as well. We think there has to be enormous "value" in what can be done with the Pegasos. The latest improvements for applications or operating systems must be available to all Pegasos owners. For MorphOS, we want to create an open-source mentality and support system for a closed-source operating system. For the Pegasos, we will offer a EULA-free hardware platform, again drawing innovation to the other object of our commercial interest, the hardware itself. The difference is that Genesi wants everyone who contributes to the success of the Pegasos and/or MorphOS to participate in the success as well.

Step #1: Make it a business

Genesi is not a profitable commercial operation. But, we are looking for like-minded people who want to share the risk and opportunity to turn it into one. The foundation has been laid. We have spent a considerable amount of money and effort just getting to the point where we can now transition it all into a business ­ the first venture phase is almost over. We have gathered a core team. We will continue to recruit others. We have licensed a host of applications and core operating system components to get the package to a point of minimal credibility. Today, we have accomplished this much and we now find ourselves on the threshold of opportunity.

Step #2: Carpe Diem

The Pegasos has been initially targeted at the computer "geek" market. Computer software developers, embedded system technicians and suave computer users that enjoy developing unique computing solutions define this market. In the next marketing phase, we intend to leverage the worldwide interest in the Linux, as HP, IBM and Sun, to further draw attention to the Pegasos. Linux is available for the Pegasos platform from a growing number of distributions, giving the Pegasos owner several choices from which to choose. There is a move away from Microsoft based products, particularly in Europe, where a number of governments have mandated that Linux or another fully featured possibility replace Windows for official computer use. On the Pegasos, MorphOS will be present and exposed to users through the notoriety of Linux. MorphOS will remain our sublime focus. We will ride the Linux wave to bring MorphOS to solid ground.

Simultaneously, there are a number of other very strong trends in the IT market that will positively contribute to a successful broader market introduction of the Pegasos II including: 1) market saturation, where the reasons to upgrade are beginning to sound increasingly empty ­ why upgrade if you cannot notice the difference, and 2) the growing emphasis on mobility which remains dominated by power consumption and efficiency (i.e., heat) issues as they relate to cost and use.

Genesi's business plan is based on continuing to seed the "geek" market with a flexible, forward compatible and scalable technology, while progressively targeting the markets that are driving the penetration of the PowerPC into the broader consumer market. For example, the worldwide state-of-the-art in the satellite television technology is a set-top box based on the PowerPC. The Nintendo GameCube and the TiVo are both consumer products based on a PowerPC. These are consumer electronic products <b>and</b> computers that are restricted to specific functions to reduce cost. It is Genesi's position that when these market forces are coupled with the upheaval triggered by Linux in the computer industry, the PowerPC is poised to become a commodity component at a much lower cost that will soon challenge the dominance of Intel-based processors because they are more efficient and powerful cycle for cycle. The Pegasos and MorphOS are well positioned to take advantage of the changes anticipated.

Recently, a large European media company commissioned Genesi to develop a low cost PowerPC based digital terrestrial television set-top box based on the Pegasos platform and MorphOS. In turn, Genesi developed a new kind of device that achieves both consumer electronic television related requirements and computer industry performance standards. On the low-end the device manages digital television viewing with expanded interactive features using instructions embedded in the digital television signal that can modify the information stored in the memory of the device. On the high-end given the addition of a broadband Internet connection, the device combines all the features of a computer and the Internet with all the possibilities created by the huge amount of data that can be transmitted by the digital television signal, whether terrestrially or by satellite. The features available can be scaled as a function of cost and performance from Euro 69/unit to Euro 299/unit. At Euro 299/unit the device is a fully functional computer that can be used as a home server to find and play music or movies (irrelevant of the source), operate with a web cam as a videophone, or supplemented with WIFI features to feed multiple devices in the home.

As the core technology of the Pegasos/MorphOS is more efficient and powerful the total system cost requirements for components, memory, and power can be reduced. <i>More can be done with less and for less</I> ­ that sounds like the old C64 marketing slogan;-). Genesi owns MorphOS and develops and modifies it internally. There are no royalties to be paid to third parties, further reducing the cost of use when compared to other available systems. Certainly, once the Pegasos is fully refined the hardware itself can be reduced to a handheld device, which corresponds to the evolution IBM has fashioned for the PPC. MorphOS is ideally suited for this environment and the future we envision. We can and will create a VERY competitive offering.

Step #3: Make it better; make it the best

Good, better, best. These are comparative terms. They are measures of relative value. To be better than anything else, we have to be the best! How? All the established players have more money and more resources. To be better, we have to change the rules. To draw an analogue from science, think about the electron orbital levels in atoms. As the Periodic Table number increases, the number of electrons and sophistication of electron orbitals found increases. We need to bump things up to the next "orbital". To be better, we have to change the definition of the "best". We have to add another "level". We have to be "next".

Here are a few general areas where you will see our focus. All these issues will be addressed at the right point and be integrated by design step by step into our future product offerings.

1. Security and Privacy issues will be balanced along with a number of existing tools to create a safer computing/internet experience. As the citizen of a country you have certain rights and responsibilities. Think about what is required to vote in an election or obtain a passport. Why should the Internet-based Community be any different?

2. A digital distribution and an online micropayment system needs become a function of the platform itself. Piracy won't end with music. Movies are destined to be "napsterized" next. The system is broken. We need to find a solution. Smart cards will have a role here.

3. Communication, information and entertainment are the keys to success. We want a built in videophone, online mass multiplayer game environments, and easier ways to use the Internet.

In fact, we want something completely better than what exists. We do not need to re-build it, we just need to leverage what is mostly there already and improve it. We have to be inexpensive and we have to provide "value". The platform needs to become invisible to the experience. When you are write a letter, have a conversation, watch a movie or play a game -- the computer is helping you to do something. What you are doing should be the focus, not the computer. The computer is a means to an end. The objective: make the user's life better. Make doing anything that can be done with a computer easier to do from anywhere, anytime.

Want to be part of it? We will be offering a way for anyone who has the skills that we need to accomplish these steps the opportunity to earn shares of Genesi stock during the next phase of our corporate development. We will be focused on making as many of you that deserve and want to be shareholders just that. Of course, all the Genesi employees/contractors will have the opportunity to be shareholders. There are plenty of millionaires working for Microsoft thanks to the same concept. We will even extend this opportunity to the Community. In this way we will create the incentive for increasingly broader and more fully committed long-term support. If there are applications that work on MorphOS, we want them integrated into the platform and we want the revisions and improvements coming as quickly as possible. There are websites that can be developed and maintained to promote the platform in one way or another. There are Moderators and online Help Teams that will be needed. We want all to have a chance to earn a stake in the success. We will have plenty of needs and there will be plenty of opportunity.

We understand that this kind of incentive is not for everyone and we respect this. We also respect the fact that without the support and involvement of the Community we would not have the success we are having today or the success we are destined to have in the future. This is our way of acknowledging our appreciation for all the benefit a vibrant, intelligent and participative Community can bring. Please consider this: it is not about creating a great game or an application that will bring a developers success. It is about many developers doing many things and all benefiting from the work of each other that will bring the greatest success. It is the total package. And remember, to be the best it will take much more than "developers". We subscribe to the Phoenix Developer Consortium definition here. There will be many things for many different kinds of people to do!

If you are interested in leading the charge to change and to getting the revolution started with your own contribution, please let us know. We will be happy to hear from all interested parties.

That¹s enough for now. Have a great day!

Raquel & Bill
bbrv@genesi.lu

Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 1 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Aug-2003 18:17 GMT
To the innocent bystander it looks like you're asking people to pay for being betatesters for the RIAA/MPAA. That's no way to attract the GNU/GPL/OSS hippies. ;-)
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 2 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Aug-2003 20:00 GMT
Now that is one long-winded blog. I have this theory: good visions are simple. They lock onto a target and have focus. This one is a fleecy (if you have nothing to say, make it long). Maybe it's intentional, I don't know. Smokescreen for the competition. Personally, I would feel more comfortable to understand where Genesi is going. Handheld? Apple? Desktop? STB? Content? Embedded?
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 3 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 14-Aug-2003 20:11 GMT
This is pretty much consistent with what Genesi and bbrv have been posting for months, if not years already. They keep up the same themes, which seem to include quite a few: the watts happening angle, secure online community (smart cards) and obviously the content issue. The vision and its presentation has been refined, and certainly it is starting to sound pretty eloquent, but only small glimpses to what it all actually means have been revealed.

As such, I have no problem with people labeling it fluff. Sure, we've all heard good stories like this before. "Fluff" it is. What is different, though, is that this time there already is product to back it all up out there. That certainly gives a bit more credit to it than similar stories from official torch-carriers. But fluff it is. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 4 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 14-Aug-2003 23:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
All of the above, maybe?

It's so easy to adapt the same technology to different fields, why limit your vision?
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 5 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Aug-2003 23:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
"I would feel more comfortable to understand where Genesi is going. Handheld? Apple? Desktop? STB? Content? Embedded?"

Where they go, they need no paths :)

Well with simple words:

- They go what the marked requests.
- They go where they can sell their stuff.
- They go where they could attract people.
- They go wherever but still have the community in their back.

Imo going this flexible way is the only way to go and they DO go. They make one step after another forward. Not like the Ainc crowd who goes 1 step forward and 9 back.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 6 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by amorel on 15-Aug-2003 00:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
"Personally, I would feel more comfortable to understand where Genesi is going. Handheld? Apple? Desktop? STB? Content? Embedded?"

Where they go there be dragons.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 7 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 15-Aug-2003 01:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (amorel):
>Where they go there be dragons.

LOL, can hardly debate that with a straight face, Amorel ; }

There indeed be dragons - just about anywhere that is worth treading these days, in and OUT of the old ghetto... So, might as well find some interesting ones to riddle : }
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 8 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Aug-2003 05:38 GMT
The best part about Genesi's IPO will be seeing the stock price plummet every time bbrv flames the officers of another company.

Hey, if nothing else this little adventure will teach the guy to be civil.

The downside will be if some nut gets it into his head to singlehandedly bring down the company by stock manipulation (happened a couple years back, when a pissed-off teenager almost killed some internet shop by spreading rumours, just because he wasn't happy with the service).
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 9 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by gz on 15-Aug-2003 07:06 GMT
I'd much rather secure my internet sessions with a good firewall that gets steady updates and a good e-mail program that is very un outlookish in terms of internet safety.

Smart cards could arguably bring new ways to limit user freedom of internet and would make it easier for companies using such technology to dictate what an user can do and with what cost. I don't like piracy either but it's something that can't be rooted out of humanity ever. It's the equivalent of trying to find a cure to murderers and rapists etc. I don't certainly like loosing my freedom because someone is using that freedom to do negative things.

The bottom line is that I don't like the possibility of someone being able to dictate my internet experience at their own will in any way. A smart card internet technology would bring opportunities for that.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 10 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by nomoreBBRVrubbishplease on 15-Aug-2003 07:25 GMT
Heehee, Tony Blair could do with your services right now.

Spin..spin...spin.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 11 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 15-Aug-2003 08:40 GMT
It was articulate and readable, even if pitted with analogies. Some people will complain about anything.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 12 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Alfred Schwarz on 15-Aug-2003 08:49 GMT
Hm, is it just me or is there really no real content in that thing?!

Would be interesting to get some update of how the things are doing instead of describing some daydreams, for example: Is the Peg2 prototype working, with AGP?

Ciao, Alfred
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 13 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Aug-2003 10:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Nate Downes):
It's not good to try to do everything and split/spread your resources here and there.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 14 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Aug-2003 10:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
Every serious company needs clear plan of somekind. you can't just wander aroud and do a little about something and then wander again and then find another interesting thing and so on.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 15 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Robert on 15-Aug-2003 10:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (DaveP):
@DaveP:

> It was articulate and readable, even if pitted with analogies.
> Some people will complain about anything.

I know. I actually found it a very interesting and positive read.

Jeezy-Creezy people, why so negative?

Robert
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 16 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Aug-2003 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (gz):
Hi gz, good post. What about a serious game of PegPong DaveP?

We posted this on MorphOS-News last night...

How to provide security without invading privacy?

Let’s brainstorm about it...

First, the issue really is privacy with security, not security with privacy. In other words privacy comes first. Privacy should be a choice. This is an issue of freedom or said another way, an issue of liberty. On the other hand, security is a means to an end. Security should be a technical standard. Privacy, like participation is a personal choice and is intangible – really more of a concept.

The issue is how to protect the privacy of innocent people while insuring that others who have equivalent access do not abuse the system.

Consider the extreme:

1. Air travel is easy and cheap.
2. We can turn the plane into a bomb and kill many people.
3. The residual effects will help our cause.

You know the story. The Internet and its abuse is no different, albeit less dramatic. Unfortunately, perhaps, the long-term results are more insidious.

We will not make a trade off for security with privacy. It would be more than sad to solve the Internet’s security problems by abandoning privacy and the civil liberties that inspire greatness in humanity. The problem here is that the freedom of the Internet, which we all appreciate and want to preserve, affords an advantage to an abuser that most of us would disdain to take. Remember, houses have doors and doors have locks. The Internet “terrorist” mingles with us freely online. They have no respect for the “freedom” of the others. Their efforts take place within the innocent activity of our everyday use. The only way to detect them is by looking for patterns of specific activities that have proven in the past or are estimated in the future to be indicative of misuse. Here we will concentrate. We have never contemplated “spying” on our community. We just want to figure out a way to eliminate the weeds from the garden.

We seek to find specific patterns of activities that can lead us to abuse. Please keep in mind that sometimes solutions are not without controversy – particularly as solutions are sought. It is our sincerest hope that the complex issues facing the Internet today may not be solved using methods that have been applied in the past. We need to explore complex solutions that sometimes involve controversial technical concepts in order to maintain the foundation of privacy that is the Internet’s strength and the basis for its freedoms. This will require the involvement of many, in fact the entire community…;-) We will all need to “lend a hand.” There is the whole responsibility issue coming back!

Anyway, we should continue the discussion. Thought should be given to anonymity, which could be accomplished with pre-paid smart cards. :-) Now, there is an idea with privacy in mind!

Keep thinking! Thanks for
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 17 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Aug-2003 10:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (bbrv):
...playing!

:-D

R&B
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 18 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 15-Aug-2003 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (bbrv):
Don't have the time today, 1% bandwidth left over from the work I am doing :-)

Another time perhaps.

So where does one go for the Club I Am Pegasos shares? ;-)
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 19 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Aug-2003 11:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (DaveP):
More on this later...but these are not shares for sale for money -- at least not yet. We are not looking for money from this community. These are shares in exchange for effort, apllications, updates, participation, etc. We are just taliking about "sweat equity" here. :-)

R&B
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 20 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Alfred Schwarz on 15-Aug-2003 11:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Robert):
> I know. I actually found it a very interesting and positive read.

So, maybe, you can tell me the content and news of that long reading in some simple sentences?

> Jeezy-Creezy people, why so negative?

I simply couldn't find any real content, maybe I just missed it because english isn't my first language.
I would be glad if someone could tell me in a few simple sentences what *is* interesting about all this, it doesn't read like any news to me.

Ciao, Alfred
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 21 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 15-Aug-2003 12:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Alfred Schwarz):
>I simply couldn't find any real content, maybe I just missed it because english isn't my first language.

It is a philosophical posting. Or fluff, for those so inclined. You will not find any (or at least not much) tangible content there. Yet you may find some food for thought if you look a little bit past the exterior - like the gz/bbrv exchange on privacy/security hinted at.

Is it newsworthy? Perhaps. It does give some hint of an answer to the question where, if anywhere, Genesi is going. People have accused them lacking a vision in the past (saying MorphOS is a dead-end etc.), so this might give something to those folk as well.

But fluff it is.

Yet nothing wrong with fluff if it complements tangible progress, and not the other way around - or worse, tangible progress is replaced with fluff. Genesi hasn't been guilty of that so far.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 22 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Alfred Schwarz on 15-Aug-2003 12:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Janne):
> It does give some hint of an answer to the question where, if anywhere, Genesi is going.

Hey, that's easy: 42

So this is, what it's all about :-)

Ciao, Alfred
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 23 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Senex on 15-Aug-2003 12:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (bbrv):
@Raquel&Bill

> but these are not shares for sale for money -- at least not yet.
> We are not looking for money from this community.

Thank you - both for that planned reward but also for clarifying this. It's quite reassuring - therefore IMHO you better should have made this more clear in your text; obviously the phrase regarding not looking for charity wasn't sufficient for this.

Especially I am reassured that you aren't needing our money. Not that I'd really would have seen certain "Genesi share coupons" in my mind's eye, but I'm very glad that Genesi is no publicly traded stock corporation, because otherwise I'd always fear it becoming another Metabox AG.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 24 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Ville Sarell on 15-Aug-2003 13:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Senex):
I didn't, at any point, think they would be selling shares for money...I think that came out from the post very clearly...at least between lines and even psychologically speaking..

Anyway, I'm certainly in! If there's anything I can do...sounds just what we (at least I) waited for :-)
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 25 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by 65535+1 on 15-Aug-2003 14:22 GMT
seems that it's ...
no, i better don't say it until it officially is.

baaaaah, what a stupid posting this is - but what the heck :D
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 26 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 15-Aug-2003 16:51 GMT
OK, lets take these thoughts one at a time and try to turn them into a discussion...:-)

@Anonymous 62.42.228.20 No, that is not what we are trying to do. What we are sharing is a thought process and what we are looking for is people that understand it and want to be part of it. If they have something to contribute to the advancement of the platform we will have a way for them to participate in the platforms success.

@Anonymous 202.88.140.166 You hold on to your theories and opinions. They work for you. If you don't feel comfortable with what we have written or understand it, that is fine. Have a great day.

Hi Janne! Fluff?! Know what happens when you build a house on sand? These are bricks and with bricks you build something solid that will last. Lets take a complex subject and make sure we agree. First step, lets define terms so we have a common "language" -- we need to use the same sheet of music so to speak! Whoops, you are speaking Finnish everyday?! Geee, this could be complicated. OK, lets pick a Finnish subject that is complicated. Can you describe to me how the Finnish Government is organized? And, please do it so 202.88.140.166 can understand...;-) Try to use less than ten words and use one syllable words if possible! BTW, thanks for all your support with Assembly and getting us involved there. You know we are not all talk...;-)

Nate, we are thinking of making you the official Genesi hallway monitor. What website are you working on now?! :-) Of course, your comment is correct. The core technology can manifest itself in many ways wholly or in part. Does that sound too fluffy?! :-D

Whoa Mr. Anonymous 217.229.109.250! :-D Let us give you a stick. We will place you on the front line and you can swing at anything that comes toward you. Whop them a good one! ;-) Thanks for your support nevertheless!

@amorel Dungeons and Dragons?! Just please stay there, in your personal dungeon that is. But, when you get that audio software finally done and working please let us know...;-)

Hi greenman! You are promoted! Your posts on amiga.org were thoughtful and intelligent. We are proud to be working with you.

@anonymous 4.33.151.136 Have a nice day too! When we have an IPO you will find out about afterwards...;-) Stock prices are based on supply and demand. If everyone is a seller the stock goes down. As you probably cannot/will not be a buyer, you cannot be a seller either...;-) Get it?! Do you know what stock manipulation is? Please answer in ten words or less.

Thanks again gz for the good post. Agree or disagree, we appreciate folks like you.

@nomorewhimpsplease Yes, spin is a one syllable word and while you are at it close your eyes too. One quick question, did you vote in your last elections. What do you know about Government or Tony Blair? Being a politician can be a very high calling. It sort of depends on the person. Who do you think was better, Chamberlain or Churchill?

(blushing) GeeWhiz DaveP! Thanks! What do you mean pitted?! :-)

Hi Alfred, no it is just you. There is nothing there. BTW, how is that support group you were forming coming along? It looks like anonymous 202.88.140.166 could be a friend to you! Go for it Sport!

@anonymous 195.148.82.17 You are correct!

@Robert :-D Thanks!

Hi Senex, thanks for helping us clarify that. It can be a challenge sometimes. There are probably no less than a dozen languages primarily spoken by the main core of readers here. But, we will be talking about a public traded company one day...like IBM, Microsoft, Cisco, Apple, Sun, 3Com, etc. See what we mean?...:-D

Thanks for the email Ville. Please try out that idea we suggested. :-)

@65535+1 ???

Here is some more "fluff" while we are at it...

We think in the end, the Internet will mirror "real" life. When things are important, the user will be required and WILL WANT to make certain disclosures...I am really this person, I can afford to buy this, I want to vote for this Mayor, etc. When things are less important, people can put on a mask and dance around the room and do whatever they want. Consider this, if you have a heart problem you go to a doctor -- and want to know he/she really is one. Serious issues demand serious procedures. For example, we think identity theft is a crime. Would you want someone to say they were YOU and order a few thousand Euros worth of stuff on the Internet? It happens. To insure this cannot happen would you be willing to participate in a "safe" community? This is who I am and I only want to deal with people that disclose as much information about themselves as I do. This can scale from no disclosure to full disclosure, but this is the users choice. Correspondingly, the more disclosure there is the more TRUST one can place in another who has done the same. We think there are many people that will be interested in such a service. In order to achieve this "safety" would they try a new computer? They might. Remember, they want to shop/be online without fear of being violated in some way. The computer is just a means to an end (do you walk to wear shoes or do you wear shoes to walk? Get it?! Sound "fluffy?").

It might all come down to "credentials." Think of this like a credit limit on a credit card and the process one goes through to obtain one. Some of you are old enough to know the advantage of having a credit card while traveling in Europe before the advent of the Euro. No cash required, just charge it! The future of the Internet is the same. There will be a common "currency" but it will be more than money. It will be a package of "who you are" -- it will be your credentials. This is for you to share with others who do not know you, not for others to use to "spy" on you. See the difference? You decided to provide information about yourself so that others can work/play/chat with you -- and you them with confidence.

This of course can work anonymously too in a different way. But, if you are anonymous we may not want to have a serious discussion or a major business transaction with you. On the other hand, you may have something that you need to understand about yourself anonymously. Here again, "real" life will be mirror and you will probably find a group of like minded people logged into AlcoholicsAnonymousonline.com -- all there to help each other.

Anyway, all this is sort of a funny discussion, because in reality there is nothing online anywhere that cannot be traced one way or another to the person or a computer precisely over a period of time. This is where the issue of civil liberties comes in and Governments, etc. We will need this on the Internet one day to prevent it from collapsing in on itself. Hey, good Internet Citizenship coming to an ISP near you! Watch...it will happen.

Again, as in life, you can drive up to a bank, run in, point a gun at the teller and run away with the money, but do not stop and keep running -- maybe for the rest of your life. The Internet is/will be the same. Usually "doors" and "locks" are enough to keep honest people honest. We just need to figure out the best way to do that for the online world that transends nations, cultures, languages, etc. Wow! Now, that will be a challenge!

Thanks for the discussion -- you see it is sort of happening right here already...;-)

R&B
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 27 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 15-Aug-2003 17:00 GMT
In answer to the letter of Bill Buck.


Dear Mr. Buck,


I think you missed the whole thing with your letter...

Are you promoting your products or complaining about actual security level of Internet?

--------------------
And my answer could be stopped here.
So those who don't want to read more can just skip the following part.
--------------------

Let's point some facts:



>Change comes hard to people.
>It takes courage, dedication and intelligence to be different.
>Leaders change things.

Silly statements you made, because leaders are only among other causes of changements...

Because also:

-Events & climate change things.

-Behaviours of persons change things.

-Technologies improvements change things.

-Enlightened persons change things.(only to cite some:
Budda, Christ, St. Paulus, Averroé, Charlemagne, King Richard, Fredrick II Honstaufen, Erasmus, Martin Luther, Queen Elizabeth I, Galilei, Voltaire, Rosseau, D'Alambert, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Pasteur, Nobel, Abraham Lincoln, Edison, Marie Curie, Einstein, etc., etc., etc.)

Even...

-Peoples change things.

And unfortunately:

-Diseases change things (think of the whole SARS affair)

-Terrorism and War (two of the heads of the same monster) change things, and change it all so bad.

-Dictators and bad presidents also can change things...

-Global warmth and pollution change things...

-Indifference and prejudices change things.



>Microsoft and the hundreds of companies worldwide
>that make computers and applications that work with Windows
>have generated more opportunity through the Internet
>in a given period of time than arguably any other human creation.

So what?
They also killed an equal amount in different opportunities.



>The Internet has introduced a new sort of freedom.
>Naturally, freedom can inspire both "good" and "bad".
>This is human nature and no rule or technology alone will change this.
[...]
>If we talk about the future of the Internet we have to start there and this is where responsibility steps in.

I agree with you. Responsibility come first.



>Freedom and responsibility work together.
>Said another way (by someone much smarter):
>vigilance is the price of liberty.
[...]
>Surely, this is the study of Governments,
>but the Internet transcends government because it can theoretically involve all humanity.

No, this is not duty of governments.
Governments made laws to prevent, emend and correct...

INSTITUTIONS have the duty to control.

and citizen must have the duty of responsibility of their acts and to signal any abuse (made by other people, by organizations or even by institutions) to WORKING & FUNCTIONING democratic institutions.

We pay a lot of taxes to hire institutions. They must do their work.

AND we citizens have the right to change institutions and people controlling these institutions if they made their work badly.


We must consider these two "actors" as parallel powers and mainly their duties are these:

Institutions must vigilate abuses...

...and citizens must vigilate that institutions do not exceed their duty.



>How to get so many, so different to agree in union to a code of behavior?
>Well, it could start here with the Pegasos and MorphOS.

Well, your beginning of the letter does not match this point of arrive.

What is the connection between Internet security, rights, duties, and Pegasos+Morphos?



>There are machines in 34 countries. The first building blocks are in place.

Indeed it is nice to hear this. It is a little success...



>Step #1: Make it a business
>
>Genesi is not a profitable commercial operation.

Sure I believed all except that all your past operations come from a "NO PROFIT ORGANIZATION"....

:-))))))))))))))))))

Silly...

Except the fact that (with YOUR words) you may suggest that "until today" you are working "in loss"...



>On the low-end the device manages digital television
>viewing with expanded interactive features
>using instructions embedded in the digital television signal
>that can modify the information stored in the memory of the device.
>On the high-end given the addition of a broadband Internet connection,
>the device combines all the features of a computer
>and the Internet with all the possibilities created
>by the huge amount of data that can be transmitted by the digital television signal, whether terrestrially or by satellite.

It is a good project, but honestly I must advice you not to count on Italy.

Because here in Italy, to allow our prime minister to continue keeping his property of 3 broadcast televisions (in spit of his instituitional role), and to make "unfair" competition with the RAI (Italian State Broadcast) itself, which instead wanted to improve the analog system to digital...

...the minister of telecommunication is planning (among other things), not to introduce digital for a lot's of years.



>1. Security and Privacy issues will be balanced
>along with a number of existing tools
>to create a safer computing/internet experience.

Simply don't put into your OS some SPYWARE as M$ made with Windows Media Player 7 and latter versions.

And it is not legal EVEN IF they advice the user that he is spied, and that the titles of what he played are reported to a Microsoft Center.

BECAUSE IT COULD BE LEGAL ONLY IF THE USER CAN PREVENT THAT FUNCTION BY CHOOSING IT OR NOT.



>As the citizen of a country you have certain rights and responsibilities. >Think about what is required to vote in an election or obtain a passport.

I think again that you made silly statements...

:-))))))))))))))))

To vote to an election I need nothing (execpt valid documents).

It is a well recognized right of citizen.

If someone wants to cancel or to abolish this right of mine, I will work and fight to obtain it again (with the help of all other citizens).

AND MAINLY...

To obtain a passport I need:

3 photos legal size,
a valid identity document,
and to pay about 45 Euro of taxes...

;-))))))))))))))))))))))



>Why should the Internet-based Community be any different?

Because, thanks to God, internet is free...

If I need some particular services from internet

(value added services)

THEN AND ONLY *THEN*

*ME* the common user need to:

-to prove my identity,

-to pay,

-and something else similar...



>2. A digital distribution and an online micropayment system needs become a function of the platform itself.

No, it must be an optional.

Micropaying is only a facility and *ME* the common user don't want to be bother by that if I don't want it...



> Piracy won't end with music.

Unfortunately also governments and laws won't end recording production firms to made a "trust" and over-price CD's.

For example I buy a lot of musical CD's in cheap edition coming with music magazines by special offers.

It is surely a real bargain! Legal, rigtheous for the buyer and convenient for the recording firms.
Sure it is EVEN profitable for them.



>The system is broken.3
>We need to find a solution.
>Smart cards will have a role here.

Well, you had to live here in Italy...

Unfortunately government had an idea to resolve situation.

They over-taxed all "still new"-blank-virgin recording media (tapes, CD's, DVD).

Well, you may complain that it is a bit illegal, because my government consider any person a pirate...
...even if the person is buying a tape to record private events (such as birthdays, marriages, etc.), he/she must pay a price that does not match the value of the media...

Money taken from this taxes are mainly a gain for the state, and a certain percentage goes to the authors and to the recording or movie production firms...

...But only if they are registered at government UNIQUE office of SIAE (Italian Society of Authors and Editors/Producers)

Silly! But real, authoritative and EXPENSIVE.



>3. Communication, information and entertainment are the keys to success.
>We want a built in videophone, online mass multiplayer game environments,
>and easier ways to use the Internet.

First give me good productivity software, and I will be ***STRONGLY*** incentivated to buy your platform.
Then give me all value added software and facilities such as DVD player software, etc., etc., etc...



>Of course, all the Genesi employees/contractors
>will have the opportunity to be shareholders.
>There are plenty of millionaires working for
>Microsoft thanks to the same concept.

Strange you stated that, because M$ is unfortunately well reckognized as the firm who changes the rules in shareholding.

Infact they ***NEVER*** converted profits into year-end dividens for the shareholders, and preferred to rise cash amount reserved to the firm.

Because of that, a large amount of the value of the firm is stopped into cash assets.

That means what?

It means that *ME* the common shareholder of M$ (even being a millionaire shareholder, due to the high value of any share) can't obtain cash unless I don't sell the actions themselves...
...because in simply owing the share I receive no money due tho the behaviour and the decisions of the firm management.

to be a millionaire only "in potential" and not in benefit it is not a good thing.

Please think to reconsider your plans regarding actions if you think to follow the M$ model of behaviour in treating shareholders.

Regarding other your wishes, I hope you the best.

Ciao,

Raffaele
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 28 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 15-Aug-2003 18:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (bbrv):
@bbrv

Fluff as in the kind of visionary speak without tangible substance we have heard for years within this community from one torch-bearer and another. I'm not saying the message is the same, just the style. As I said, nothing wrong with fluff as long as it is followed by action too. I know you are more than just talk. Anyway, putting together some of this fluff with your earlier fluff is certainly starting to paint a more concerete picture. Trusted community. I see where you are going. In a fluffy kinda way. :-) Nice concept.

About Assembly, you're welcome. Letti (Sami) did most of the work!

As for describing the Finnish goverment for you in ten words would mean I'd have to give up fluff. Not fair, when you are allowed use fluff all you want! And what is politics without fluff. ;-) But I guess that was the point.

The problem with this kind of fluff in general is, it may be bricks or it may be just sand. You really don't know until it hits you in the head. Be that in business or in politics, you see lot of grand ideas, and people carried away by them. I wouldn't go as far as to say that it is easy to be a visionary, but in any case it is far harder to see those visions through, then to talk of them. Matrixish difference between knowing the path and walking the path.

The understandable reason behind all the scepticism towards your talk, is that we've all heard talk before, but seen much less results. There certainly was a time when fluff did the trick in this community, but it is much harder these days. People tend to like the concrete even a bit too much these days - more concerned with specific OS features than long-term direction. Fortunately it'll probably get more balanced again with progress.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 29 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Aug-2003 19:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (bbrv):
>Anyway, all this is sort of a funny discussion, because in reality there is nothing online anywhere that cannot be traced one way or another to the person or a computer precisely over a period of time

That is not correct, there are services that provide reliable privacy (like JAP, http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/index_en.html). JAP is a distributed untraceable distributed system. I do not like some of your statements for two reasons:

Firstly, they seem to ignore the facts. It is impossible to implement a secure platform via MorphOS and PPC. A smartcard approach just doesn't cut it. Two corner stones are missing: secure software (memory protection) and secure hardware. In the x86 world, Palladium - or what's it's name today? - will implement secure hardware. Without secure hardware, malicious code will always be able to hook into the system and steal or distort private information. For example, code could hook into the keyboard handler and record keystrokes. For secure hardware, one needs a secure chain from the very beginning to thew very end, including secured CPU, secured bus, secured memory, secured devices (VGA, keyboard). None of this exists for PPC.

Secondly, I disagree with the whole Palladium/smartcard/security idea. I understand that there are benefits for privacy and security and trustworthy computing, but as a whole, I see it as Pandora's box: While your above statement (that everything is traceable) is not entirely true, it is true enough for practical purposes. And that worries many because we don't want to live in an Orwellian world. Palladium can make that worse. It does not necessarily have to make things worse, it is just a technology, but it creates fertile grounds for total information control and big brothers. In my eyes, it would be folly to go down that route with the Pegasos, following Microsoft's footsteps and surrendering to big business and their idea of DRM, security and accountability. The way I see it, the window of opportunity for alternative platforms like Pegasos is exactly the opposite: privacy and anonymity. Before the computer age, much of our life was anonymous. There certainly was some listening to phone calls and some letters were opened but those were exceptions rather than the rule. Today or at the very latest tomorrow, computers will be able to spy on each and every bit of personal information, thanks to their incredible speed. Why don't you develop an anonymizing smartcard?
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 30 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by MeF on 15-Aug-2003 19:35 GMT
I have read BBRV's letter many times.

I fully agree with Raffaele, being italian myself 8) )

I just add that the post is really an empty glass. It mixes Privacy with Security, with Piracy, all different things...

I still wonder what's the relation with Internet security with MorphOs+Pegasos?
Is that the only solution that can provide those services (if they will ever seen as "positive" for the results you want to obtain)? How long will it take to
Genesis to develop them (seen they cannot have a stable working HW+SW)?
Mr. BBRV are you sure you can really compete on that field? Where's your browser that can use SSL level 1,2, encryption and such lately developed standards?
There are already some companies that produce technologies to recognize the user (fingerprints, smarcards, USB key etc..)? So what's the innovation? The original thought? Where's the contribution that Pegasos+Morphos can give to this field?
Intel already tried at your "innovation", (P3 unique and public ID) failing.
And your security "means", whatever they will be, as you said, are useless, as even on trusted connections, the other side can do any misuse of your credit card data.

So you are saying nothing new, proposing nothing interesting, arguing in a very superficial way of too complex subjects that many can't contain in 1000+ pages tomes. And those authors, usually, do not make propaganda (excluding MS derived publications, of course)

So I can't still see what is the position Morphos+Pegasos is going to take in the next 5 years (middle-long term, I dare to say, as I don't know if you can really last that much).

Of course Privacy&Security are things that your OS has to take into account to stay leveld with all the other ones. I doubt you can do anything other have already thought/tried, not because you sare not able, but because other, beside what you may think, are ahead of you. A lot ahead of you, and have already been working on those issues for some time now, while you have finished debugging your HW last month, and your OS still seems to have problem booting from a scratch machine!

So, I think it is best first to make a "finished" product that can be seen as stable and user friendly, then, and also then, come and speak about what you would like to see that going.

Otherwise it is "fluff" as someone else said.

Have a nice debugging.

M&F
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 31 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 15-Aug-2003 20:33 GMT
Common sayings (time tested):

"What we make, we can break"

"Locks are for Honest People"

Fact: As a matter of personal privacy and personal security we have anonomizer services that do provide untraceable communication. As anyone who has been to comp.sys.amiga.misc in the past year might have seen this in abusive application but the trade off is worth. The having to chose to ignore flaming trolls using such a service in exchange for making it possible for others to communicate information anonomosly that otherwise would or could result in a serious threat on their life or the lives of their loved ones.... Even educational institutions of law are providing such services on teh internet, as well as independant parties.

Also the idea of riding the Linux wave with a closed source OS ...... not to mention the difference it has on contributors freedoms. The Linux wave is bigger than that and it is far more likely to dictate (developer and consumer votes in using and requesting new things) the direction of where the future of computing is than anyone or group that wants to ride the wave rather than contributing to it. SCO is a good example of trying to ride the wave, and this linux, its just the first wave, the next is even bigger, GNU complete.

Piracy..... That is a word coined by Bill Gates when he accused the all of those who brought computers into the home, of stealing from him. Many, if not most, where not only not guilty of such but without them Bill Gates would never have become rich. But when Bill Gates yelled "Piracy" he disruppted a natural evolution of software development while subjecting the growing consumer user base to abuses and unfair constraints and limitation in order to "make people need him".

Fortunately people have become aware of this and are indeed getting back to being on a natural software evolutiuon track in FSF definition of "Free Software" which is differtent than your definition Bill.

Of course Genesi has the freedom to try whatever they want.

There is more I can say, perhaps even regarding the buzz word "terrorism", but people do things for reasons. If you remove the reasons then people will not do the thing good or bad. If you create a reason, then people will do a thing good or bad. Bill Gates created the reason to upgrade by always shorting the user of their freedom and sacrificed security..... now MS has to face the results..... is that good or bad? Isn't it really just the natural manifestation of what MS created?
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 32 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 15-Aug-2003 21:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (3seas):
There are a lot of comments in this thread, some critical, but happily most people seem to be thinking about what they are saying and there is no dumb red-blue bickering.

Without using the word that is floating around in these posts, I disagree that there is anything lightweight or insubstantial about BBRV's comments. Leaders are supposed to provide a broad vision, and with Genesi's record of getting 600 Pegasoses with MorphOS out the door and into the hands of (mostly) Amigans, BBRV has earned a credibility level that means people take their vision statements seriously.

What do I think about it? I agree that change is hard. This is a real lesson for Amigans who are notoriously loyal in holding on to an old computer system for so long. It is possible to take some of what made the Amiga great, and have some backward compatibility, and yet build on that and change. This is always what drew me to MorphOS and Pegasos, and what also made me a believer in what Genesi is trying to accomplish by backing the system. I had to be able to flex a little bit to accept that. Some people are like "I had 1.3, 2.1, 3.1, 3.5, and now I am going to have 4.0 no matter what." They are more resistant to change. And then there are some people who are scared of change. I think sometimes when people in this community attack Genesi it is because they are scared of change, and this fear turns into hostility. Yes, change is hard. But change is a good thing!

I disagree with BBRV's point about Microsoft generating so much opportunity through the Internet. The Internet and the opportunity it brought would have happened anyway. It would have happened better without Microsoft stamping out and cutting off the air supply of all their smaller competitors, for example Netscape who originated and popularized the browser that is the average person window and bridge to the opportunity of the Internet. I won't rant right now but IMO the Internet experience would be better and this opportunity would be greater if not for the anticompetitive monopolistic actions of Microsoft, which have reduced choice, destroyed innovation, and degraded the human-to-machine interface in ways which are really bad for the human. Sorry, I ranted after all, but the point is that there is a better way to do things and I also think Genesi potentially is this better way.

I am not going to comment the whole BBRV announcement, but when "a digital distribution and an online micropayment system needs become a function of the platform itself" and that a smartcard is part of this is said I can sort of see where we are going but it'll depend on the practical details and user-friendliness and efficiency and pricing if people will accept this or not, and we just won't know about all that until we start doing it.

When they talk about making users shareholders via one means or another it is just a good option for the people who use the products and believe in where Genesi is going. But nobody has to do anything, less-interested people can kick back and decide whether to buy the system or not based on whatever criteria they set for a computer system. And this is a good segue (sp?) to one point that I would like to make, we need to have a complete system that comes in a box like a regular computer that can be bought by regular people. We really have tapped the market of technically-savvy Amigans who are willing to buy a motherboard and purchase and build their own system. BBRV states that Genesi is not profitable at this point, I think that it is possible to be profitable on a small scale doing exactly what we have been doing except reaching more people who can't build their own &%@#ing computer. Not that we would stay smalltime forever but to me that is the next logical progression. And so this is why I worry when I hear that Pegasos II will be Pegasos I revisited, where we continue to attract developers and artists and authors and whatever. We already did that. Let's go on to the next thing. It is necessary for us to go on to the next thing. It is time for us to go on to the next thing. MorphOS will be there for the next thing.

Let me go ahead and wrap this up before the power goes out or something.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 33 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 15-Aug-2003 22:14 GMT
Stocks.... are they a good thing or a bad thing or just something that can be used either way?

The trillion dollar bet (search GPTV) was a VERY VERY bad thing and so is SCOs use of FUD to increase their stocks as they sell it off.

Stock market was intended to be a way for individuals to invest ina company and share in its profits at the risk of losing in its losses.

But due to the mechanics of it and teh ability to manipulate the mechanics. it is not uncommon for wjhat a company produces to be irrelavant to investing in its stock. Some even play the day trader game which is even more disconnected to the actually values being produced by a company.

The stock market has been turned into a game like poker, where some forms of cheating or deceiving are acceptable and getting caught at other ways of cheating are only wrong if you get caught.

Then there is the Microsoft problem where the investors will go along with anything MS says, even giving up of their human rights so long as MS stock goes up and regardless as to9 how the stock is made to go up. Simply put, such investors have been bought by buying MS stock.

The original intent of the stock market is now only a small part of how all the Stock market is is used. The Trillion dollar bet was used out of greed and drained SE Asia economy and caused a world wide economic problem by unnaturally (voiding stock original intent) and wrongly manipulating world economy. And what contributed to DotCom boom (building the false bubble and then bursting it)as well as teh financial troubles of major companies like enron and worldcom and even the political/military sequence of events from the first attempt on teh WTC to todays non-war in iraq.

People do things for reasons, good or bad.......

China was the only major country immune to the trillion dollar bet, cause they simply were not playing that game (with teh small exception of Hong Kong, already integrated into world stock game).

Stock Markets have become a way to transfer monitary value without producing real value, and in SCOs case they are even putting effort in distroying the value of the open source Linux community.

Do you really want to play that game?
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 34 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Casey R Williams on 15-Aug-2003 23:02 GMT
It sounds like a good plan to me as far as I understand it. Comparisons to Amiga's press releases don't hold up in my opinion. Amiga never clearly explained the plan for Amiga DE, OE, OS etc., then or now. I don't know if AOS4 is the payoff of their master plan, or their backup plan, nor where intent fits into their plans. With Genesi there's one platform and one OS, and it seems to be moving forward quite well...
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 35 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-Aug-2003 23:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Anonymous):
>if you have nothing to say, make it long).

Oscar Wilde: "If I had more time I would write a shorter letter" ;-)
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 36 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 16-Aug-2003 02:11 GMT
More discussion...:-)

Raffaele, thanks for posting. Unfortunately, English is not your primary language and Italian is not ours. Frankly, that is just the beginning of our misunderstanding. We have different concepts of humanity and government too. We do appreciate your response even if it is only to understand how little you understood about what we said. :-)

Janne, the title was "How we see things." It should be pretty clear that these are our personal opinions and in general we are trying to create just enough controversy to get a discussion going and get a few smart people to post a few of their own ideas. It is also a way to gauge interest and develop market understanding. It works. Thanks for playing...;-) We will send you an email when we post the "MorphOS 2.0 Feature List!"

@Anonymous 202.88.140.166 You miss the point. This is not about security as technological standard with Big Brother at the switch. This is NOT about technology. This is about a personal choice. Lets start over...Mr. 202.88.140.166, you have just won the lottery. You can now afford to live anywhere you want to in the world. Please make a selection now and explain why you made your decision. Just post it all here! :-) Then, we can discuss this a bit more! BTW (changing subjects), a prepaid smart card could be anonymous. We agree.

@MeF It may have been an empty glass, but you and Raffaele sure did try to fill it up! :-) We are glad you think security, privacy and piracy are all different. At least we agree that far, but you like 202, etc. seem to miss the point entirely. This is not about technology as the end game. It is about personal choice. Privacy is a decision we regulate ourselves. This is an issue of civil liberty. Security is just a technical standard or procedure. If you decide to live in a gated community it is your choice. So too, if you pitch a tent and sleep on a public beach. This was your decision. Can you see the difference?

Hi, Mr. 3Seas (which seas by the way?) 1. Everything on the Internet can be traced. It just depends on how bad some one wants to find you and how careful you are, but it is all just a matter of time and whether they have the legal authority to do it. But, that is NOT the discussion we are aiming for. There are different levels of anonymity and different motivations for it. It principal we are for it as long as it can not be used to disrupt the experience of some one else. 2. Of course Linux is bigger -- it is the "wave." We are surfing remember. 3. You lost us on the piracy discussion. What did we say to get you to think about that in terms of Bill Gates and software development? 4. Terrorism a buzz word?! Tim, you are in another discussion. We are not communicating. We have no idea what you are talking about. On to your last comment (#33)...the capital markets created the international economy that exists today. Yes, we want to be part of that. As in everything human, there is good and bad. The all-time utility meter for the capital markets is VERY high.

Hi Daniel! Yes, sort of refreshing isn't it?! We are all attempting to understand each other and express our opinions. Great! Thanks for the endorsement and complements. We hope we can continue to earn your support and participation. We value it. About Microsoft...we unintentionally drew attention to them. Our objective was more to say that computers and the Internet have changed the way commerce, communication and information are handled dramatically in a relatively short period of time. Windows, by definition, is a part of that as it runs more than 90% of the world's computers. Maybe, that is where 3Seas was confused too...(into a completely different discussion). We are just kicking the old smartcard idea around looking for ideas, but most of them are there already. The SIM in a cell phone is a smart card, a bar code is like a smart card, so is the magnetic strip on you credit cards. In Europe, credit cards and telephone cards have had smart chips on cards for years. It is just a way to store and communicate information. What we are talking about is not much different than using a Cash or ATM machine. First, you have something (YOU have it) -- the card. Second, you have to go somewhere to use it (insert card here) and thirdly, you have to know something to use it -- your PIN code. For starters, just imagine your own card reader PIN pad connected to your computer. Maybe, the card has an authentication key too that identifies you specifically to the network when you log in...Hi Daniel, what can we do to serve you today, etc. You imagine the rest... Finally, about the next sales phase. There are many more technically suave computer people that want a Pegasos -- many more. They write us every day. The Pegasos II will not be impeded by the same problems we had before and we will be able to follow a classical product development cycle. Lets see how it goes. You might be right, but we think it will take another iteration before we are ready for prime time. We will have one standard computer package this time though. You are right about that.

Hi Casey, thanks for the encouragement. :-)

@Anonymous 65.96.105.223 Oscar Wilde was writing about something, were you?

Anyway, thanks to all of you for taking the time to share your opinions. Even if we miscommunicated completely at least we know that and we can work to improve our technique...:-) "Keep those cards and letters coming!"

R&B
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 37 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 16-Aug-2003 03:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (bbrv):
Mr.BB wrote:

>Raffaele, thanks for posting.
>Unfortunately, English is not your primary language and Italian is not ours. >Frankly, that is just the beginning of our misunderstanding.
>We have different concepts of humanity and government too.
>We do appreciate your response even if it is only to understand how little you understood about what we said. :-)


Well, don't worry about me. I had undestood you well.


I just wanted to point to some statements you made from your "different viewpoint to intend government and humanity", which didn't match a discussion made about IT marketing, purposes, strategies, dreams.

For example: the beliving that only leaders made changes.

...And I want also to show you that using M$ as an example on how good they are in generate profit is not fitting perfectly your aiming.

It is better to use a polite firm as an example in the next future.

(Well you can became that one polite firm if you want to)

Finally, it is more important to me that other persons have understood what I said.

Ciao,

Raffaele
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 38 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 16-Aug-2003 04:47 GMT
Hi Raffaele, thanks for posting. We will try as you to communicate better...;-)

1. "Leaders change things." This is a complete sentence, but not a sentence that means leaders are the exclusive agents of change. In your first page you correctly identified many others. Can you understand that there is no contradiction?

2. In general, we are not sure you understood us, but that is OK. We probably got almost as far as we can online. Maybe we can catch up at a Pegasos Show in Italy one of these days. :-)

3. We never referenced Microsoft as a business making profits. We referenced Microsoft as a Company that awarded stock (shares in the Company) to many, if not all its employees. In doing so many employees became millionaires as Microsoft became successful. See the difference? We were not referencing Microsoft "as an example on how good they are in generate profit..."

4. We want to be the "polite" firm! :-D

In closing, it would be a amazing thing one day if any of us could understand exactly what each of us said as we intended it to be understood! And, in all the languages too! :-)

Sincerely,
Raquel and Bill
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 39 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by vortexau on 16-Aug-2003 05:16 GMT
I would be wary of using MS in certain examples:-

As I see their relationship with the US government, and their (so-called) "Trusted Computing" protocol, as a Twenty-first version of the Nazi takeover in Germany and the accompaning loss of personal rights!

Because of THESE concerns, I refer to that "Trusted Computing" protocol by a diffent name -- *Fasist Computing*! When Hitler took power in Germany on January 30, 1933 - he acted swiftly to suspend personal rights. *Fasist Computing* has the potential, along with political developments in the US, to curtail personal rights on a massive scale.

You could not trust (there's THAT word) Hitler! You cannot trust Bill Gates/Ms and the US Political/Business Combine! You cannot trust "Trusted Computing"!

Writers, Actors, Directors, Singers, and Musicians SHOULD be paid for their work. Just as Farmers and Growers SHOULD be paid for theirs! I DON'T take issue with THAT!!

What I DO take issue with is Marketers and Middlemen snatching the lion's-share of profits for themselves!!!!!!!
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 40 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Janne on 16-Aug-2003 05:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (bbrv):
@bbrv

>It is also a way to gauge interest and develop market understanding. It works.
>Thanks for playing...;-) We will send you an email when we post the "MorphOS
>2.0 Feature List!"

Never said it wasn't working. I'm only saying why it may be harder. My intention was to provide insight into why this community may not be the most receptive of audiences to "visions". It has just been burned by many enough. You know, back in 1999 you could still feel how Jim Collas' (later found to become his last) "yeehaw" did the trick. People were excited with visions. One more sale of assets, Amiga Inc. and a dot-com bust later the mindset just isn't the same anymore. There is understandable scepticism. People may also have a hard time separating an opinion piece (posted for comments) from a marketing announcement, since they've had so many of the latter, and few of the former.

However, I myself do listen with interest, as always. I always liked visions more than feature lists.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 41 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous critic on 16-Aug-2003 05:59 GMT
Things will manifest once Pegasos2, the real (hopefully) bugfree Pegasos, is finally on sale, with the software available at that time.
Those few months of initial sale will be way more determining and revealing
than even tenthousand million of hollow words could ever be.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 42 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 16-Aug-2003 12:06 GMT
@bbrv

The Sea of Honesty, the Sea of Dishonesty and the Sea of Honesty about Dishonesty.
(amoung other things)

It took the Decimal System (including the "nothing" of zero having value) 300 years to propogate and replace the far more limited Roman Numeral system.

There is what I call "Self Supported Dependancies" where anything outside and contridictary of the dependancies is ignored or not understandable by those caught inside the self supported dependancies. Drug Addicts, alcoholics, are examples of people with self supported dependancies and in order to excape the addiction they often need external help.... the 12 step program and support.

A current article expressing this SSD in the computer IT industry http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20030814.html

Those "experts" in using the Roman Numeral system of mathmatics where the core resistance to change, as a matter of job security. Just like it is today with the IT industry.

Imagine where we would not be today, had the Roman Numeral system persisted as the main form of math?

We wouldn't have computers!!!

Likewise, it is difficult to see and much less believe in such a massive change possibility when you are holding on to old ways, and have never experienced such "yet to be" advancements.

Calling the old ways "new and the direction of change needed", is only a deception to maintain the old ways.

And Bill, you really are holding on to old ways.

The wave serves everyone, the surfer serves only himself.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 43 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 16-Aug-2003 12:17 GMT
My advice to Bill/Genesi is to focus on developing PPC hardware at a price/performance people interested in that architecture will be attracted to.
The providing MorphOS as a default OS included with the Hardware, for free is a plus but only for those buying the hardware who don't plan on using another PPC OS on it. Of course Genesi has to know this otherwise they wouldn't be promoting the porting of other OS to its hardware. OS like Linux, the Hurd, AROS have far more potential to allow people currently running in x86 to move over to PPC hardware, as these OSs allow the user to move to the PPC hardware without having to lose what they have OS wise on the x86.

Leave the evolution of the general direction of computer usage to those who are in the position to direct it, or find yourself guessing wrong.
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 44 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 16-Aug-2003 13:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Janne):
Janne, I always enjoy your reasoned interjections and think-pieces. Indeed, this is not the most receptive audience for HOW WE SEE THINGS. Like a pendulum many in the community have swung the other way after getting nabbed by visions that had no work going on behind them (the "Wizards" were working their image projectors overtime while their machines of industry were on permanent vacation).

I was maybe one of the lucky ones. I never felt Collas or many of the others had the real stuff behind them. Working with Genesi, I've seen a lot of problems. But I've also seen a will to overcome the obstacles, and to place shoulders behind presented visions and statements of intent. Bill and Raquel and all the various teams working in their own areas have shown no sign of letting up, and the finance has proven secure thus far. I see no signs of that changing.

Right now we are in a phase that is sustaining central development quite well, and feeding third-party development with resources and support. Some of us do not NEED large visions to drive our work; others have longer-term goals or imperatives that require such visions to use as templates for our designs and implementations. We have an incredible amount of materials and ideas, enough that we need such templates.

The reason to talk of much of this with the community is NOT to spin webs of pink cotton candy around everyone until it reminds people of times of sweet smells and sensations that later appeared to be a web of illusions. Perhaps we merely want to show people where we want to go, and what we want to do, and why. There are reasons all too apparent now for why we wrap ideas of privacy, security, personal right and freedom, with commerce and products.

It has been clear since at least the Industrial Revolution how technology impacts lives for better or for worse. It has become all the more evident since the early days of the Information Age that many problems considered not too pressing to the Industrial Age mindset (speaking very generally here) have not really been addressed sufficiently. Indeed, the global movement of information has shown how faulty assumptions from that mindset have come along for the ride and seem to have more barbs and hooks than were ever realized.

We are interested in products and services. Genesi sees a need and an opportunity to play a part in taking the users of alternative personal computing to a future where they may have more choices in how to enjoy that pastime, a pastime that for many already seems more like a central axiom for life and interaction.

...OK. I supplied what could be more "fluff". But I'm convinced that it is worth tying this all together, and that it is a very big job with huge implications. And if it also gives us cool toys and tools in the meantime, I am very happy to see efforts along these lines : }
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 45 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 17-Aug-2003 10:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (bbrv):
>4. We want to be the "polite" firm! :-D

ROTFL!!!

Sorry bbrv, I simply couldn't help myself. :-P
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 46 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 17-Aug-2003 17:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (samface):
That is OK Sammy. We know you. We appreciate you...in a special way...;-)

R&B
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 47 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by 3seas on 17-Aug-2003 23:14 GMT
Some thoughts:

Security on the internet is like trying to assure that anyone driving a car will never, by choice or accident, break the law, hurt or even kill someone.

I heard a news report about teh crime rate in New York during this recent Blackout in comparison to the last blackout in New York. The recent blackout had actually slightly dropped from normal levels, where the last blackout was for a shorter period of time and the crime rate rocketed up.

What made the difference?

Did someone invent something that prevented people from commiting more crime when the power, including the power to all them alarm system, went down?

Maybe it was a change in laws?

It couldn't possibly have been just a result of individual choice as to whether or not to commit some crime, because everyone knows if people in general can more likely get away with crime, they will more likely try.....

Just like people know they can use a car to run someone down..... if they have less chance of getting caught, then more will do it....

Why? Because it is human nature to be destructive, especially if there is no reason to!

RIGHT?

The point is, security is not achieved by taking peoples freedoms away from them, for that only provoaks or motivates then to prove such logic wrong, as they want their freedom back.

The crime rate dropping in New York during this past Blackout if associated with technology, especially computer technology.... one would have to consider there was no power to run the technology...... Does this mean that computer technology causes an increase in crime? Certianly if it is used to entrap others, it will inspire effort to excape such traps.

What really happened in New York is that people in general just chose to not commit crimes. A miracle? The Impossible happening???? No just the simple freedom of being able to make the right choice.

And that is where the future of security on the internet is to be found, in choice, free choice.

What about commerce on the internet? The exchange of value general in terms of money.

Seems to me every time someone comes up with an idea as to how to include themselves as an additional middle man taking a cut in mass transactions thru the internet, they fall on their face.

Why?

choice of course.

Isn't the governments enough of a middle man, taking a forced cut of every transaction?

And it's clear people are waking up to removing middlemans like MS and even IT.

Why should people want to add middlemen to their costs?

Then there is the Free Software wave.

You can't make hardware out of thin air or less than that, like what software is made of -- in thought converted to text.

Hardware is not made for free, and never will be, for it is a conversion of matter.

Riding the linux wave. Where does that put products like AROS and MOS?

Are they surfers or surfboards?

If they are surfboards, are there limitation as to how far you can go with them?

What restrictions are imposed upon their use?

summary:

security --- it comes down to general population choice to ....

Commerse --- it comes down to choice to....

So how the hell do you motivate people to need security from middlemans and convince then you are it?

Without Lying to them?

That last condition puts MS out of the picture.

The future of computing is in providing the consumers, the end users with real and genuine power to make their personal use to be as they see fit.

100 years from now there won't be any such thing as IT. Instead there will be such technology existing that enables people to configure the computer, the automation machines to do what they want, without being limited to just teh scope of vision of some other trained in bit flipping.

The evolution of this is going to happen within the foundation of Free Software, because that is the only place it can happen.

Proprietary software has been given its chance but the inherent motivations of such have proven incompetitance towards such future of freedom from false constraints. False constraints that are primarily designed to unsurp unearned value from others.

current constrained ways are no longer going to survive any more than the roman numeral system had. (still in use in very limited ways - is it even used for math at all, anymore?)
Raquel Velasco & Bill Buck: How we see things : Comment 48 of 48ANN.lu
Posted by anonymous on 19-Aug-2003 22:42 GMT
"In the text that follows we have shared a few ideas. We decided to post them here because it was easier for us"

Where did you find these easy ideas bbrv? Hahahahaha. These are almost as original as the addition of Greenboy to your venarable team. Sorry mate, but moist and garrulous does not a business plan make. Hahahaa.
I dont know where it is that a green beret finds such money to waste on such tripe, but bravo, you are all a piece of work. Thank you for your contribution to the bleeding edge of technology.

Hahhahahahahha
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