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[Events] Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBITANN.lu
Posted on 08-May-2004 16:00 GMT by Raffaele49 comments
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I have news that Elena Novaretti, author of good software programs such as ZoneXplorer and Power Icons (and a known Pegasos fan and owner) is also present at Webbit Padova with a Pegasos II kindly furnished by Pegasos Italia just for the exhibition event. We expect soon impressions of Webbit show from Elena, and news about the impact which Peggy II made to italian public. Wow!!!

After 10 years of absence to important events here in Italy, two Amiga based platforms are there!

More! I have news that the booth by Virtual Works, Ikir Sector, Soft3, Bitplane (with partecipation by Eyetech, ZetaOS and Cloanto people) IS A DOUBLE-SIZE booth.

Very impressive.

And more, seems that (basing upon Ikir statements on the web), there are two Pegasos at Amiga booth...

Amiga has a Very Very strong presence and a lots of opportunities to impact the public at Webbit Italy.

Good news for our beloved platform.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 1 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Ugr on 08-May-2004 14:55 GMT
"two Amiga based platforms"

According to you Amiga is "Amiga based platform" and Pegasos is also "Amiga based platform". This is not true and you know that. Amiga it is Amiga not "Amiga based platform". Elena (yes, you are right, She is good programmer) shows nothing more as clone of Amiga. In addition clone which is not full compatible with this true Amiga showed on the same event.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 2 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-May-2004 15:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Ugr):
"According to you Amiga is "Amiga based platform" and Pegasos is also "Amiga based platform". "

That seems a fair description to me.

The hardware is practically identical. AOS4 is closely based on AOS3, and Morphos is rather less closely based on AOS3 but still near enough to run many programs unchanged. The people involved have all owned Amigas and developed for 68k Amigas at some time.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 3 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-May-2004 15:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Ugr):
I don't think it worth arguing over this,
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 4 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 08-May-2004 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Ugr):
Come on Ugr.

By having two different platform in the same booth (and in a booth not sponsorized by Bill Buck, who [I think] knows nothing of the move and the efforts which made pegasos-italia to be present at Webbit show... Show which has great importance in Italy) it is a proof of democracy from amigan people who sells different products.

Please, do not criticize the effort that Amiga people from both fronts made in terms of very generous moves.

And mainly Eyetech people and AmigaOS4 developers such as Stefano Guidetti who could have been hurted by the presence of Pegasos also at same booth in which they are demoing their products.

By the way... I think that Elena was present in another booth. Is anyone here who knows who is hosting her?

Or italian amigans are so kind to host her at their same booth?

And finally...

Pegasos share the same concept of the Amiga. It was born from people who work with Amiga, and who created good hardware.

It is capable to run the same software of classical amigas, even in emulation, so it is a clone of it, yes.

But mainly it shares the same concepts and ideas of good, efficient code, with no consumption of resources, "microkernel" architecture, same multitasking methods, easy in using and leaving complete control by the low-end user.


By the way I use the past regarding the show, because I think it is finished now at 20:00.

Webcam shows a still-image now, with the cheers and greetings of all the crew to whom I made in answer all my greetings also.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 5 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-May-2004 16:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Raffaele):
But mainly it shares the same concepts and ideas of good, efficient code, with no consumption of resources, "microkernel" architecture, same multitasking methods, easy in using and leaving complete control by the low-end user.

This I don't believe, sorry, to many boxes and layers, it can't be efficient.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 6 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-May-2004 16:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kjetil):
> This I don't believe, sorry, to many boxes and layers, it can't be efficient.

:-)
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 7 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 08-May-2004 16:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kjetil):
And again another clueless Kjetil post .....

Hint: One of the Friedens allready admitted that they will have to write some sort of box
for apps written for AOS1-4.0, once they introduce REAL MP in OS4.x

2nd hint: the number of layers does say allmost nothing about the overall efficenty, only
the quality of those layers does, and you can have a completly f***ed up OS by just trying
to mix to many ideas and concepts into the only layer you got.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 8 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 on 08-May-2004 17:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Kjetil):
>This I don't believe, sorry, to many boxes and layers, it can't be efficient.

It's not about the amount of boxes, but about that, what's inside them :-)
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 9 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-May-2004 17:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Jupp3):
@Jupp3
I respect your view
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 10 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by the man in the shadows on 08-May-2004 17:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Kjetil):
> I don't think it worth arguing over this,

The only comment worth it's salt so far. I honestly believe getting a person to change their religeon would be easier than changing how they see the Amiga/Pegasos ordeal.

Oh man... I said religeon and Amiga in the same sentence... I wonder how long it will take for Billsey to respond? 8^)
--
Kent
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 11 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 08-May-2004 17:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Kronos):
Don't forget that the most 'confusing' thing about MorphOS is that it's not exactly a 'box' (again, this is my bias, being ex-OS/2), or more exactly, it's a 'box' that doesn't so much impact either protection/security or performance.

This, in turn, does have me question when Quark/MOS will be able to do anything other than provide a slightly enhanced 1994-alike environment, but I've quite honestly given up trying to figure it out until y'all 'show us the money' in an actual implementation. In turn, everyone on that side of the fence can go on thinking 4's approach somewhat special-case/brute-force, and it's all sort of moot until either OS officially releases a full 'solution' to the protection problem(s).
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 12 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-May-2004 18:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Kronos):
Hint: One of the Friedens allready admitted that they will have to write some sort of box
for apps written for AOS1-4.0, once they introduce REAL MP in OS4.x


Yes I know this where used as an argument, and I don't think it's needed,
different rules to different task it all that is needed, the problem so to speak is that 68k programs,
pass arguments using pointers from whit inn the program it self, static vars etc, and not from shared memmory, inn system using isolated memory you can not pass pointers from an read only area, this will force an mmu hit,

We do not won't a fake exec to duplicate arguments and memory areas before passing it on to real execSG, that slow, and it will make every thing use twice the amount of CPU time,

Some one will argue that they have implemented the perfect box, and that they do not pass/duplicate arguments between the core kernel and the fake kernel, all the fake kernel is do all the memory allocation and reassure management by it self, if that is the case how the hell is your system able to communicate whit the other boxes,

2nd hint: the number of layers does say almost nothing about the overall efficenty,

WindowsXP, MacOSX, nice preforming OS, NOT.

WindowsXP = DOS + Win3.1 + WinMe + WinNT + Java + VB
MacOSX = OS8.0 + OS9.0 + Alian kernel + Java
MoprhOS = Quark + ABOX + (QBOX inn development)
AmigaOS4.0 = ExecSG + (68k task emulation)
AmigaOS4.x = ExecSG + "68k BOX"
AROS = AROS

Every task takes up CPU time, every driver takes up CPU time, every Box takes up CPU time.

only the quality of those layers does

If the box is resident, it takes up CPU time,

nd you can have a completly f***ed up OS by just trying to mix to many ideas and concepts into the only layer you got.

just like A/BOX contains 68k + PUP + WUP support.

yes it's hard and difficult task to make a system run on task emulation bases, given they you most be able to expand on the old, whit out braking an egg or tow, some times it's worth breaking an egg inn the process,
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 13 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-May-2004 18:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Don Cox):
> The hardware is practically identical. AOS4 is closely based on AOS3

Closely based on OS3?!? After 2+ years of development, it must be a lot of new code in all key areas, at least I hope so. Hopefully the nasty old AmigaOS souce code was used for reference only in most places, rather than as basis for the new AmigaOS4. As to MorphOS, there was a rumour that the blue side had the AmigaOS source code, too. The compatibility of MorphOS is so high that such a rumour makes sense (imagine the insane amount of reverse eningeering required to understand the badly documented procedures in DOS).
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 14 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-May-2004 19:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
When where first version of morphOS, displayed 1998 or something version 0.6?
If we look back we will find that MorphOS used to have AmigaOS installed to fill up the holes inn MorphOS, this is one of this things that fulled bad vibes between AmigaInc and MOS, And this is way Abiant where created whit haste.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 15 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 08-May-2004 19:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Kjetil):
@Kjetil

Could you atleast for once try to stop babbling bout stuff you don't understand ???

Yes OS4.x will have to provide some wrapper around exec-fuctions since you can't run a design like exec on a MP-system. And if you want to have that new kernel to be protected from OS1-4.0-apps, than they will do it in a boxed way.

The legacy box in OSX or XP is NOT what causes them to be slow, there still slow when you run SW compiled for OSX or XP ....

Passing some arguments trough one layer will cost just a handfull of cycles per call, wouldn't be suprised if a heavy MMU-setup would cost much more performance.

MOS0.4 was released in 2001, and yes it did use parts of AOS3.x (on a binary level). Nothing wrong with that as MOS0.4 ONLY runs on Amigas with OS3.x installed ..

Ambient wasn't created with "haste", it was created because a new desktop would have been needed anways.

So:
Could you atleast for once try to stop babbling bout stuff you don't understand ???
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 16 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Nicolas Sallin on 08-May-2004 19:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
MorphOS is not and was never based on AmigaOS source code. That's only pathetic *lies* spread by Hyperion&friends to badmouth their competitor.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 17 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 08-May-2004 20:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
(imagine the insane amount of reverse eningeering required to understand the badly documented procedures in DOS).
--

Nope. Imagine the time many people spent coding for AmigaOS over the last 15
years. Frank Mariak for example was the one that implemented one VERY important
element in AmigaOS: RTG. Picasso 2 was his work, as is CyberGraphX. Same with
the rest.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 18 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-May-2004 20:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Jupp3):
Think outside the box :-)
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 19 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 08-May-2004 21:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Kronos):

@Kjetil

Could you atleast for once try to stop babbling bout stuff you don't understand ???


What an extremely good argument, you most be clever

Yes OS4.x will have to provide some wrapper around exec-functions since you can't run a design like exec on a MP-system. And if you want to have that new kernel to be protected from OS1-4.0-apps, than they will do it in a boxed way.

AmigaOS3.x will not write randomly to any memory address, and if you find on that do then that has a bug, if you have program that hacks innto OS structures, then that is called a patch, or a virus, spy ware, that type of behavor is not some ting you like have inn a new system,

the behavor of 68k programs is that they give away pointers to address whit inn it slef program, not allocated trow by using shard memmory, it is that memmory are that can not be protected,


The legacy box in OSX or XP is NOT what causes them it to be slow, there still slow when you run SW compiled for OSX or XP ....

well yes if you have program running inn the background using all up all your CPU, there be nothing left for your software compiled for OSX or XP.

Passing some arguments trough one layer will cost just a handfull of cycles per call, wouldn't be suprised if a heavy MMU-setup would cost much more performance.

this CPU cycles will be multiplied by the number of times they are executed whit inn a task switch, given that you may have many programs whit inn your box, and that the box need to check for external and internal IPC communication, you lose lots of time,

and MMU setup will ONLY use CPU when an exception is triggered, and when you need to change the vector table,
exception will only accrue when an task is doing some thing illegal.

MOS0.4 was released in 2001, and yes it did use parts of AOS3.x (on a binary level). Nothing wrong with that as MOS0.4 ONLY runs on Amigas with OS3.x installed ..

Nothing wrong unless the software is pirated.

Ambient wasn't created with "haste", it was created because a new desktop would have been needed anways.

My impression is that is where crated whit haste, quite blither tone just before it where created.


So:
Could you atleast for once try to stop babbling bout stuff you don't understand ???


What an extremely good argument, you most be clever.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 20 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 09-May-2004 05:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Kjetil):
@Kjetil
> AmigaOS3.x will not write randomly to any memory address, and if you find
> on that do then that has a bug, if you have program that hacks innto OS
> structures, then that is called a patch, or a virus, spy ware, that type of behavor
> is not some ting you like have inn a new system, the behavor of 68k programs
> is that they give away pointers to address whit inn it slef program, not allocated
> trow by using shard memmory, it is that memmory are that can not be protected,

NEWSFLASH :

SW written for AOS does write into unallocated memory (every SW has bugs), and
sometimes they are even supposed to write into system-structures. Making that
imposssible, and thereby protecting kernel and apps from eachother is the whole
point of MP. 99% of all old apps will fataly fail the second your put MP over the
kernel and it's structures.

> well yes if you have program running inn the background using all up all your
> CPU, there be nothing left for your software compiled for OSX or XP.

Yeah, and what has this to do with the number of abstraction-layers involved ?

>> Passing some arguments trough one layer will cost just a handfull of cycles per
>>call, wouldn't be suprised if a heavy MMU-setup would cost much more performance.

> this CPU cycles will be multiplied by the number of times they are executed whit inn
>a task switch, given that you may have many programs whit inn your box, and that
> the box need to check for external and internal IPC communication, you lose lots
>of time,

Lets see, the exec-wrapper and all old apps are within that box, so lots of inter-task-communication can be done without switching back to quark. But lets assume it would happen 100 times per secound and each switch would take 100 cycles. Thats 100.000 cycles on a CPU that just made atleast 600.000.000 cycles ...

> and MMU setup will ONLY use CPU when an exception is triggered, and
>when you need to change the vector table, exception will only accrue when an
>task is doing some thing illegal.

It will eat cycles while it is monitoring wether a access to a "moved" mem-area is happening. It will eat cycles rerouting those acceses to the physical address, and no this does not just happen when something illegal happens (just read for what they want to use the MMU).

>>MOS0.4 was released in 2001, and yes it did use parts of AOS3.x (on a binary level).
>>Nothing wrong with that as MOS0.4 ONLY runs on Amigas with OS3.x installed ..

>Nothing wrong unless the software is pirated.

And what has this to do with the kernel they run the SW ?

> My impression is that is where crated whit haste, quite blither tone just
>before it where created.

Noone cares (and noone should care) about your impression.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 21 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 09-May-2004 05:33 GMT
great post Raffaele, thank you for your positive tone.
i just skip past the argueing the same thing over and over posts these days.
congrats to the various italy and wider amiga based crews. ;)
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 22 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by stefkos on 09-May-2004 06:17 GMT
Change name of your OS yo TerronOS.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 23 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 09-May-2004 06:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
"Hopefully the nasty old AmigaOS souce code was used for reference only in most places, rather than as basis for the new AmigaOS4. "

In what sense is the Amiga OS code "nasty" ?

I would hope that the OS4 code was based on it as closely as possible. It has been thoroughly tested over the years.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 24 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 09-May-2004 08:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (stefkos):
Way should they do that?

They have licened the Amiga name!
marketing: it's all about having a name some knows.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 25 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by koan on 09-May-2004 08:27 GMT
You guys are sad!!!

Chicks (i.e. women) interested in AMIGA !

How can we make this the norm ? That would be a killer app - the platform that is cool with women.

koan
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 26 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 09-May-2004 08:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (koan):
By not being to technical inn this forums? :)
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 27 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 09-May-2004 08:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Don Cox):
I would hope that the OS4 code was based on it as closely as possible. It has been thoroughly tested over the years.

I agree whit you, how ever if they need to make an omelet, they
need to break a egg.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 28 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 09-May-2004 08:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Kjetil):
And not scarying them away with clueless posts.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 29 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 09-May-2004 09:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Kronos):
SW written for AOS does write into unallocated memory (every SW has bugs), and sometimes they are even supposed to write into system-structures. Making that imposssible, and thereby protecting kernel and apps from eachother is the whole point of MP. 99% of all old apps will fatally fail the second your put MP over the kernel and it's structures.

if every SW has bugs the AmigaOS will crash the instance you turn on your computer, if you cybergouard, you will se that not every task will create enforced hits,

Yeah, and what has this to do with the number of abstraction-layers involved ?

every thing uses CPU, and thats my point, don't add layers on layers on layers, unless you have no other option.

Lets see, the exec-wrapper and all old apps are within that box, so lots of inter-task-communication can be done without switching back to quark. But lets assume it would happen 100 times per secound and each switch would take 100 cycles. Thats 100.000 cycles on a CPU that just made atleast 600.000.000 cycles ...

if it can be avoided do not implement it.

It will eat cycles while it is monitoring wether a access to a "moved" mem-area is happening. It will eat cycles rerouting those acceses to the physical address, and no this does not just happen when something illegal happens (just read for what they want to use the MMU).


they are going to use it for security, virtualmemory and jit.
the number of times en exception is triggered depends, on the amount of memory free,

on the event of jit it will only happen when the jit compiler detects 68k program code, (converted code will not trigger exceptions)

on the event of security when a program writes to unallocated memory area, or try to hack the kernel (MCP, OXYpatcher, SetPatch).

And what has this to do with the kernel they run the SW ?

comment 14: where directed as comment on an other subject inn replay to Anonymous.

Noone cares (and noone should care) about your impression.

I think users of the forums are interested inn what other users inn the forum thing, thats my impression.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 30 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 09-May-2004 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Kjetil):
"I would hope that the OS4 code was based on it as closely as possible. It has been thoroughly tested over the years.

I agree whit you, how ever if they need to make an omelet, they
need to break a egg."

The equivalent of breaking the shell is changing from SAS (and some assembler) to gcc.

The aim is to break the shell but not the yolk.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 31 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Andrea Maniero on 09-May-2004 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Raffaele):
> By the way... I think that Elena was present in another booth. Is anyone here
> who knows who is hosting her?
>
> Or italian amigans are so kind to host her at their same booth?

Actually, yes. The italian AmigaOne dealers kindly hosted the PegasosII G4 sent to Elena by Pegasos-Italia on Saturday. It should be noted, however, that Virtual Works (one of these exihibitors) is (or is going to be) also a PegasosII dealer, and in fact they did have two PegII G3 on display on the first two days of the show (one actually working, the other shown "naked" behind glass).

Kind regards,
Andrea
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 32 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 09-May-2004 10:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (koan):
Mr Koan wrote:

>You guys are sad!!!
>
>Chicks (i.e. women) interested in AMIGA !
>
>How can we make this the norm ?
>That would be a killer app -
>the platform that is cool with women.

Are you insane?

We are pointing the demoing of a platform in an exhibition in which it is not planned its presence...

And a good platform presented by a very known professional despite of her sex!!!
(incidentally a woman, and a beautiful one, but this fact do not diminish her capabilities in any way -***au contraire***- ;-) to explain it in french noun...).
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 33 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Lecta on 09-May-2004 12:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Andrea Maniero):
What Andrea wrote is right, I want only to specify that I am not a developer as reported by Raffaele, but only a Betatester/Translator.

Indeed Elena and her Pegasos were hosted by VirtualWorks, Soft3 and Alternative Tecnologies. Actually she was right near my AmigaOne and we also helped each other to configure net access for both the AmigaOne and Pegasos...truly amazing... (well, not really "amazing" for us, but it seems that someone would consider that very "amazing" :)).

Regards,
Stefano Guidetti
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 34 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 09-May-2004 12:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Kjetil):
"if every SW has bugs the AmigaOS will crash the instance you turn on your computer"

You do know that not every bug is necessarily fatal right, especially when you don't have full MP .. MP will generate more crashes, not less like some seem to think...

"on the event of jit it will only happen when the jit compiler detects 68k program code, (converted code will not trigger exceptions)"

Heh, so you're saying OS4 will generate an exception every time it encounters 68k code? And you are complaining about the alleged slowdown of layers? Please...


- CISC
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 35 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 09-May-2004 14:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Sigbjørn Skjæret):
"if every SW has bugs the AmigaOS will crash the instance you turn on your computer"

You do know that not every bug is necessarily fatal right, especially when you don't have full MP .. MP will generate more crashes, not less like some seem to think...


forcing a bad program form trashing memory is not a crash, it's a program termination.

"on the event of jit it will only happen when the jit compiler detects 68k program code, (converted code will not trigger exceptions)"

Heh, so you're saying OS4 will generate an exception every time it encounters 68k code? And you are complaining about the alleged slowdown of layers? Please...


68k assembler code, it will be translated by jit to PPC, the jit compiler will only compile it once, there is no need to translate it the 2en time the code is executed,

when you start the program you might get an hi overhead, once it starts running it will be come more and more PPC native, so the overhead becomes less,

Compared whit interpreted code, it have less overhead, the trying to read one 68k opcode, read x number of operands, so some thing whit it, move over to next opcode etc.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 36 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 09-May-2004 15:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Kjetil):
"forcing a bad program form trashing memory is not a crash, it's a program termination."

To the user that is equivalent to a crash.

"68k assembler code, it will be translated by jit to PPC, the jit compiler will only compile it once, there is no need to translate it the 2en time the code is executed, when you start the program you might get an hi overhead, once it starts running it will be come more and more PPC native, so the overhead becomes less,"

So, it doesn't translate all at once (since that would make programs start really slowly), right? That means while this code is not translated yet there will be alot of exceptions generated by jumping in and out of OS functions that are PPC... Also, what about 68k libraries? Last I heard Petunia doesn't know how to JIT those (if someone knows the current status of this, please fill us in) .. now that will certainly generate alot of exceptions .. and hey, what about those nice "traps" (jmp.w 0, wtf is that about?) that are added in the 68k libentries for PPC libraries, those must make a nice overhead (it parses 68k registers for dawgs sake!) too. :P

Now, as an illustration of the (virtual non-)impact an extra api layer can have, you just have to look at the Warp3D wrapper in MorphOS (which Ben Hermans described as "A replacement based on a stone-age old technology called Rave which was ditched by Apple years ago." (that should give you some perspective from your angle)) .. on the same hardware it not only is fast, it's actually many times faster than the original! Why? Simply because the layer is efficiently written, and it's running on top of an api that is cleaner and more efficient than the layer api (ofcourse, better drivers help too). As you can see, if done right, layers can have next-to-no impact on performance, and whatever insignificant loss there is can quickly be recouped by having a clean and efficient base...

Anyway, the point is that you are (once again) discussing things of which you know nothing about (completely offtopic to the thread even (ok, you didn't start the offtopic discussions, but you did propagate them by adding comments contradicting all other evidence)) .. you admit that you have no first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge of how MorphOS works, still you are always there to tell everyone how inferior this and that in it is, and now even going so far as to showing your blatant ignorance on how an MMU works (no, the overhead is not limited to when you get exceptions), yet talking as if you were some kind of authority on the matter...

I've kindly suggested to you before that perhaps you should try to read up and make actual observations on matters before you comment on them before, but that obviously failed (and you seemed to have taken some kind of offense to it as well, judging by some other threads), now I will kindly urge you to do so for your own good, however I suspect it won't help. :(


- CISC
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 37 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by koan on 09-May-2004 18:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Raffaele):
> Are you insane?

No, just being very cheeky :)

I thought that my post might have gone too far but someone picked it up as
an excuse to troll.. unbelievable!


> And a good platform presented by a very known professional despite of her sex!!!

Well... I think you shouldn't put the emphasis on her gender then.

I'm sure she is extremely talented and it's great to have developers working on
new Amiga platforms. But AFAIK her portfolio is an icon patch and a fractal
drawing program. It's hardly PageStream or Lightwave, is it ?

koan
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 38 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by ikir on 09-May-2004 18:57 GMT
The show was a GREAT success! There were a LOT of people interested and exited by AmigaOne and Pegasos. I loved the MicroA1 (coool), AmigaOS4 and the good usb support in MOS (we have tried my usb pen on the Elena's Peg). I was very happy to spend my time with a lot of nice people like Elena and Libero, and also a good oppurtunity to meet Andrea Maniero (Guruman), Delsig and the all the other people visited the stand...... A very positive show.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 39 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Miky060 on 09-May-2004 20:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (ikir):
I'm happy to listen you all have had nice time at Webbit. Unfortunately for me and Pegasos-Italia this fair has been off-limits this year: too far from here. I wanted however to help the Pegasos visibility sending to Elena the PegasosII G4 she showed. When she told me that Virtual Works and the other italian AmigaOne resellers wanted her at Webbit also this year showing her Pegasos1 I was really happy for this so I tryed to give an hand sending that Peg. I appreciated a lot the possibility that VirtualWorks and the others gave her and I thanks them too.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 40 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Miky060 on 09-May-2004 20:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (ikir):
I'm happy to listen you all have had nice time at Webbit. Unfortunately for me and Pegasos-Italia this fair has been off-limits this year: too far from here. I wanted however to help the Pegasos visibility sending to Elena the PegasosII G4 she showed. When she told me that Virtual Works and the other italian AmigaOne resellers wanted her at Webbit also this year showing her Pegasos1 I was really happy for this so I tryed to give an hand sending that Peg. I appreciated a lot the possibility that VirtualWorks and the others gave her and I thanks them too.

--------------------------
Michele Magliocca
www.pegasos-italia.com
--------------------------
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 41 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by cecilia on 10-May-2004 15:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (koan):
>> And a good platform presented by a very known professional despite of her >>sex!!!

>I'm sure she is extremely talented and it's great to have developers working on
>new Amiga platforms. But AFAIK her portfolio is an icon patch and a fractal
>drawing program. It's hardly PageStream or Lightwave, is it ?

well, that's an interesting attitude! If someone wants to attract women to computers, that's sure NOT the way to do it. (I've got ideas on how, but I'm working on those myself)

anyway, The main program which got me interested in MOS is ZoneXplorer. and, as it can be used on Amiga as well as MOS, it should never be used as a bone of contention between either users. It makes beautiful fractals which I have used in a variety of projects. maybe you just don't have the imagination to know what to do with it.

Plus, the "icon patch" has allowed me to use my PNG icons - the ones I created with the help of ZoneXplorer and ImageFX, on my Amiga. So, why is this unimportant or silly in any way?

I've used Lightwave - the Amiga version - since it began, as well as the windows version for TV projects, so I know full well how powerful it is. There aren't many programs that are in that category. But Lightwave wasn't writen by one person for fun. It's years old, was first developed for a complex piece of hardware and has gone through alot of changes. Don't compare apples and oranges.

What great pieces of software have YOU written that I've found useful, delightful and fun?

If guys want women to come around to computers, try not talking and arguing like a bunch of idiots. that would help alot. And I don't mean, being "PC" that's just crap. Honesty is good. But quibbling about nonsense is a giant bore.

Here is a person - of some notable abilities - who went to a show and is extending the hand of friendship to both camps and all some people can do is make this into a negative.

how rediculous.
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 42 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Lecta on 10-May-2004 15:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (cecilia):
Amen to that! ;)

Regards,
Stefano Guidetti
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 43 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Libero AT & ATGraphics on 11-May-2004 07:25 GMT
Hallo boy my name is Libero and I'm the CEO of Alternative Technology, the third
Italian reseller for AMIGA, ZETA and LINSPIRE (LINDOWS). Wherefore my name and company isn't mentioned in this message???

I have exposed at Webbit jointly the other italian reseller, i
have paid for my space in Stand and i have give hospitality to capable and lovable Elena Novaretti jointly the other reseller (Soft3, Virtual Works/BitPlane).

I have expose at Webbit three Alternative S.O., AMIGA same the other reseller, BEOS-ZETA and LINSPIRE in exclusive right.
This is only a due specification, me too have contribute to the big success of the manifestation.With so much work hard and money (much money).

Thanks so much for your attention.

Regards and sorry for my bad english, i have study it long time ago (about
20 Years ago).



Libero Moschella aka "Amiga-One"

Alternative Technology & ATGraphics
24049 Verdellino -BG-
Italy

Cell: ++39-380-3109966
E-mail: mglfree@hotmail.com
E-mail: info@alternative-technology.net
Web Site: www.alternative-technology.net

--------------------------------------------------------
Ami ...life is a real dream whit us. ^_^
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 44 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Raffaele on 11-May-2004 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Libero AT & ATGraphics):
Sorry for not to mention you...

I apologize. I've lost you in the mass of exhibitors

Is here any moderator reading, who could edit my initial post? Thanks...
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 45 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Libero Moschella on 11-May-2004 15:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Raffaele):
Ok, no problem my is only a due specification.

italian ON>>>

Non ti preoccupare Raffaele capisco, sono cose che nel casino dello Stand durante tutta la fiera possono accadere... ;-), lo segnalato solo per la cronaca e perché mi sono fatto un mazzo di lavoro per il Webbit.

italian OFF>>>

Bye boys and good AMIGA or PEG for all.

Libero Moschella aka "Amiga-One"

Alternative Technology & ATGraphics
24049 Verdellino -BG-
Italy

Cell: ++39-380-3109966
E-mail: mglfree@hotmail.com
E-mail: info@alternative-technology.net
Web Site: www.alternative-technology.net

--------------------------------------------------------
Ami ...life is a real dream whit us. ^_^
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 46 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-May-2004 18:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Sigbjørn Skjæret):
"forcing a bad program form trashing memory is not a crash, it's a program termination."

To the user that is equivalent to a crash.


It's not, the difference it that one, don't get the Guru, and you do not need to restart you computer, it's not the same thing, puss if you are a developer you can find out what the problems.

"68k assembler code, it will be translated by jit to PPC, the jit compiler will only compile it once, there is no need to translate it the 2en time the code is executed, when you start the program you might get an hi overhead, once it starts running it will be come more and more PPC native, so the overhead becomes less,"

So, it doesn't translate all at once (since that would make programs start really slowly), right? That means while this code is not translated yet there will be alot of exceptions generated by jumping in and out of OS functions that are PPC... Also,

what about 68k libraries? Last I heard Petunia doesn't know how to JIT those (if someone knows the current status of this, please fill us in)

This information is totally new for me, so checked whit Altavista and google and can't find any references, any way I think the issue is resolved as petunia is integrated in the developer version of AmigaOS40, Se Petunia page for references.

.. now that will certainly generate alot of exceptions .. and hey, what about those nice "traps" (jmp.w 0, wtf is that about?) that are added in the 68k libentries for PPC libraries, those must make a nice overhead (it parses 68k registers for dawgs sake!) too. :P

Some times developers make, errors inn there programs forget to set pointers to a allocated memory space, programs like that can be dangares, if lets say if the pointer value is increased and overwrites address 0x0004 the execbase, that will kill your operating system instantly,

exec kernel do not need to be allocated inn the zero page, the address stored inn execbase (0x0004), is the first address inn the dynamic library table (exec.library),

Now, as an illustration of the (virtual non-)impact an extra api layer can have, you just have to look at the Warp3D wrapper in MorphOS (which Ben Hermans described as "A replacement based on a stone-age old technology called Rave which was ditched by Apple years ago." (that should give you some perspective from your angle)) .. on the same hardware it not only is fast, it's actually many times faster than the original! Why? Simply because the layer is efficiently written, and it's running on top of an api that is cleaner and more efficient than the layer api (ofcourse, better drivers help too). As you can see, if done right, layers can have next-to-no impact on performance, and whatever insignificant loss there is can quickly be recouped by having a clean and efficient base...

This is offtopic: and I have no clue about what your are Ravening about, never try any 3D stuff on Amiga, so I well need to look this up.

Anyway, the point is

you do not have any point.

you admit that you have no first-hand (or even second-hand) knowledge of how MorphOS works,

first/second-hand information from developers as your self,

still you are always there to tell everyone how inferior this and that in it is,

I simply do not bay inn to marketing.

and now even going so far as to showing your blatant ignorance on how an MMU works (no, the overhead is not limited to when you get exceptions),

Do you know of any pages that might be of interest to me then?

yet talking as if you were some kind of authority on the matter...

You fail to describe how it works, and ask me, so I say what I think.

I've kindly suggested to you before that perhaps you should try to read up and make actual observations on matters before you comment on them before,

I where hoping you have able to fill me inn.

but that obviously failed

Me all knowing, you don't know anything

(and you seemed to have taken some kind of offense to it as well, judging by some other threads),

I don't get crap, I don't give crap.

now I will kindly urge you to do so for your own good, however I suspect it won't help. :(

Ignorance
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 47 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 11-May-2004 18:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Sigbjørn Skjæret):
Álmos Rajnai:

a task based emulation: each emulated task has it's own emulation process independently from the others, with escaping trough the so called emulation-traps at each system calls to the native code. The emulation in AmigaOS4 is working roughly with this method, except that there is an MMU-based 68k code identifying used instead of usual emulation-trapping, thus increasing the switching speed, lowering the memory requirements and simplifying the 68k code patching mechanism.
Why is it good for us? There is no need for virtualization of resources, no delay until building a complex sandbox-mechanism, each task has it's own interpretation/translation state, no interferences. The rest of the system can work on full speed, because it is mostly native PowerPC code, and every task scheduled individually. (Keeping the usual Amiga-feeling in feedback and working.)

When will the emulation be ready?
Soon... ;) Technically the emulation is ready. Converting from WarpOS to AmigaOS4 took more time, than we expected, but it is done. We are working on bug fixing and integration into the AmigaOS4. I cannot tell you more precise interval.

source:
http://amigos.amiga.hu/rachy/petunia.html
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 48 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 11-May-2004 19:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Kjetil):
"It's not, the difference it that one, don't get the Guru, and you do not need to restart you computer, it's not the same thing, puss if you are a developer you can find out what the problems."

You know, not every crash results in the entire system becoming useless .. if an app suddenly gets terminated for no apparent reason, that is equivalent to an application crash for the user, and yes, I'm not saying this is necessarily bad, I'm just saying that many people don't realize that MP will result in alot more of these kind of crashes (and doubly so if you are using apps that were written without MP into a world of MP, the more MP, the "worse" it gets (up to a point where they simply can't work anymore because the whole concept was based on the fact that there was no MP, and took advantage of that))...

"Some times developers make, errors inn there programs forget to set pointers to a allocated memory space, programs like that can be dangares, if lets say if the pointer value is increased and overwrites address 0x0004 the execbase, that will kill your operating system instantly,"

Unless you protect that area ofcourse, which both MorphOS and OS4 do...

"This is offtopic: and I have no clue about what your are Ravening about, never try any 3D stuff on Amiga, so I well need to look this up."

It's not offtopic to your offtopic topic. ;) I was merely giving you an illustration of how layers are not as bad as you may think (and that even OS4 is full of them)...

"you do not have any point."

Just because you missed it doesn't mean there wasn't one.

"first/second-hand information from developers as your self,"

Which you seem to repeatedly ignore (or atleast forget very quickly).

"Do you know of any pages that might be of interest to me then?"

Google is your friend (most of the time).

"You fail to describe how it works, and ask me, so I say what I think."

I didn't want to fill the thread with too much technical babble, besides, it's not like the info is secret or anything, you can find it anywhere .. which is what I've been trying to tell you .. instead of producing some kind of hypothesis as truth you should actually educate yourself on matters first...

"I where hoping you have able to fill me inn." .. "Me all knowing, you don't know anything" .. "I don't get crap, I don't give crap." .. "Ignorance"

See, this is what I'm talking about, I'm not sure why I even bother when you have this kind of attitude towards things... :P

I'm not trying to teach you some lesson, or "educate an ignorant fool" or whatever you may think .. I'm just saying that things may not always be what you think it is based on someone else's ignorant statements, and thus propagating the same ignorance, albeit unintentional .. doing your own research and drawing your own conclusions quite often pays off...


- CISC
Elena Novaretti (ZoneXplorer - PowerIcons) is present with a Peggy II at WEBBIT : Comment 49 of 49ANN.lu
Posted by Sigbjørn Skjæret on 11-May-2004 19:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Kjetil):
"The emulation in AmigaOS4 is working roughly with this method, except that there is an MMU-based 68k code identifying used instead of usual emulation-trapping, thus increasing the switching speed, lowering the memory requirements and simplifying the 68k code patching mechanism."

Like you said in the other post .. "I simply do not bay inn to marketing." .. this is one of those times you should be critical .. firstly because OS4 actually does use "traps" several places, and secondly because MMU induced context-switching is actually slower than traps (if the traps are done and handled correctly)...

"Technically the emulation is ready. [...]"

Excellent, but it says nothing about JITing libraries, which I believe was the issue I was asking about .. maybe Álmos Rajnai cares to comment?


- CISC
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