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[Web] First review of OS4-pre?ANN.lu
Posted on 07-Jun-2004 23:36 GMT by Emil 'opi' Oppeln Bronikowski149 comments
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OSNews just raported about AmigaOS4-pre review done by Sascha "SieGeL" Pfalz. Go, and read it. It's kinda shame that, I, ,TheBlueSider'' have to add sutch intresting newsitem instead someone from Red Side. ;-))
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 1 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jun-2004 22:19 GMT
Anybody owning both (A1, Peg) and willing to make a comparison? I know it's pre-release, don't give me that, be shameless and compare :) Is this thing worth the money and two years waiting?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 2 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 07-Jun-2004 23:47 GMT
"It's kinda shame that, I, ,TheBlueSider'' have to add sutch intresting newsitem instead someone from Red Side. ;-)) "

LOL. Very true, but I certainly appreciate it :-)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 3 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by gloklaw on 08-Jun-2004 00:29 GMT
ahh...you old softie, you!!!

Everybody, GROUP HUG! GROUP HUG!

Hey, you little blue kids, put that frog back in the slough. What?
You red imp, come back with my new mouse! Darn trolls.

Trolls, trolls, and more trolls. Gasp=-_ maybe even I'm one...

8')
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 4 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 00:35 GMT
Great to hear Siegel is getting on well with AmigaOS4 :)
If it's that stable, when can we expect a release!?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 5 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by cheesegrate on 08-Jun-2004 01:55 GMT
when they have removed all traces of stolen mos code...


;)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 6 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Trollbusters on 08-Jun-2004 02:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (cheesegrate):
Stop trolling!
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 7 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 08-Jun-2004 03:07 GMT
That's a very good review for it's size! Unbiased and clear! Keep up the good work!
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 8 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 08-Jun-2004 04:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Indeed a very good review.

Let's hope the next one covers the SDK, though :-)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 9 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 04:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Well it might be good, but unbiased ??? Where are the missing features and Probs mentioned? For example, a well known red Troll was cited in a comment on A-News, that is is very frustrated about many non working software on the Pre Release (but of course he is still going and telling everyone how cool OS 4.0 is, seems frustration is only for insiders) Or what about all the missing stuff which becomes clearer everyday, as there are missing USB, SCSI, Serial Device, DMA Ide Drivers, PPC Grafiksystem and so on.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 10 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by SJ on 08-Jun-2004 05:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Pre-release. Pre-release. Pre-release.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 11 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 05:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (SJ):
well I remember people bitching arround the missing features in the Beta2 Release of MOS (The same thing with another name that was). But at least it had all this mentioned things.. The "uh but we have Roadshow" sound then like a joke, simply because MOS can replace it with an 68k Counterpart, while for OS 4.0 nothing of the mentioned exists....
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 12 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Olegil on 08-Jun-2004 05:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Uhm, the review only covers the installation process, you dimwit
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 13 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jun-2004 05:47 GMT
Yeah, where are all those who tried to tear the first MorphOS betas apart a few years ago? :)

I'm glad to see that the blue side is much more understanding and tolerant :)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 14 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 05:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Olegil):
Well, one of us can`t read.. here it says "first review of OS 4.0"
And it covers a bit more than the installation.. So you have another review?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 15 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by SJ on 08-Jun-2004 06:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
Please realise that the pre-release is not even a beta.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 16 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 06:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Anonymous):
>Counterpart, while for OS 4.0 nothing of the mentioned exists....

Hm, strange that I have all of the above except for SCSI (I don't have a
scsi card nor a scsi drive) installed on my system then...
Must be my virtual system then...
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 17 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by hnl_dk on 08-Jun-2004 06:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
>Counterpart, while for OS 4.0 nothing of the mentioned exists....

Hm, strange that I have all of the above except for SCSI (I don't have a
scsi card nor a scsi drive) installed on my system then...
Must be my virtual system then...


Exactly ... he did compare the "Amiga OS 4.0 developer prerelease" with a betaversion of MorphOS ... this is no betaversion of "Amiga OS 4.0", this is a developer prerelease ... people getting this OS are not intendet to betatest it ... that is what the betatesters are for (the ones with all the godies) ;O)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 18 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jun-2004 07:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (hnl_dk):
So does that mean morphos is no longer beta?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 19 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 07:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (hnl_dk):
don`t playing games here. We are talking about OS 4.0 Pre Release! And Os 4.0 Dev Pre Release is for Aone, like MOS 1.0 was for Peg with the first Betatester Release of this machine. You might name it "Pre Dev" but it is the same.. Only difference it lacks many more features then Even the hardest MOS Fan could have expected...Well, but at least, anyone gets what he/she deserves. All those MOS bahsers must now live with their pre-dev (well we better name it pre beta..) and have to wait another year until the thing get at least usable...
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 20 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jun-2004 07:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (DaveP):
>So does that mean morphos is no longer beta?

How on earth you ended up to this conlusion based on comment #17? :)

MorphOS is beta till 1.5, thats the way I see it. After that is released, it's useless to ride with the old betastate-excuse anymore, but till then: let's call it beta, shall we?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 21 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 07:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (SJ):
"Please realise that the pre-release is not even a beta."

Nor is it being sold as a "beta" but as a "developer pre-release" - that is, enough of the OS for people to use for coding.

If the definition of a beta is that it has all the features but is still buggy, then this is an alpha version. But there is no secret about what is not yet there, nothing is hidden. It will get the A1 owners going, it is something to use until 4.0 is ready. It is the end of the beginning.

And major parts will be released on the web site when they are ready.

MOS has been in development for longer and is naturally more complete. Neither is complete compared to OS X.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 22 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 07:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (hooligan/dcs):
"MorphOS is beta till 1.5, thats the way I see it. After that is released, it's useless to ride with the old betastate-excuse anymore, but till then: let's call it beta, shall we?"

Strictly speaking, it is not feature-complete until Firewire works. (That applies to AOS 4 too.)

No OS is ever finished.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 23 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 07:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
>and have to wait another year until the thing get at least usable...

Hm, I must be sitting with a very unusable production system then... The fact
is that I only use my A4K for mail atm, simply because I havn't moved over
the mail storage yet.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 24 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 07:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Emeric SH):
Most people mainly (and IMO rightfully) criticized MOS for its instability issues at the time (Don't know how this is now). I think that's what you get when you state release a v1.x instead of a Pre-release or v0.x. For a v1.0 people expect to see some quality and IMO this developer pre-release already showns more stability/quality than at least the earlier MOS v.x releases.

Some MOS users still prefer to replace Ambient even with Workbench 3.9 due to some limitations. Food for thought maybe?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 25 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jun-2004 07:50 GMT
"Strictly speaking, it is not feature-complete until Firewire works. (That applies to AOS 4 too.)"

Don't think that a firewire stack should decide about the state of an OS. There was no OS level support of PPC cards, not even in 3.9 (save for the WarpOS prefs).

MorphOS is a pretty mature beta as far as common discussion is concerned. And as it does everything I'd expect from a final version, I feel it's a decent release since 1.4. As MorphOS developers feel that it's still lacking, and still refer to it as beta, it's just more credit to them IMHO.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 26 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jun-2004 07:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Guest):
"Some MOS users still prefer to replace Ambient even with Workbench 3.9 due to some limitations. Food for thought maybe?"

Some linux users still prefer to use console instead of a GUI. Food for thought maybe?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 27 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by DaveP on 08-Jun-2004 08:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (hooligan/dcs):
@Hooligan/DCS

Thats what I thought, thanks for clarification. :-)

btw, no not just based on that comment, based on the article and the thread so far, re: comparisons.

Regards

Dave.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 28 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jun-2004 08:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Emeric SH):
>Some linux users still prefer to use console instead of a GUI. Food for thought maybe?

Yikes I know a couple.. *shudders*

That said, I used to boot into bare AmigaDOS back in the days when I had KS2.04 and A500+harddrive. I felt Workbench didn't have much to offer for me and everything I needed to do I was able to do using AmigaDOS.
I have to admit, I still use Shell a lot.. usually I do all archiving, dearchiving and such using Shell although I have configured everything I need in Magellan.


Oh god.. did I just admit I have something in common with those Linux-geekfreaks.. :P

/me loads a gun and slowly point the gun at my head
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 29 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler/Pagan on 08-Jun-2004 08:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Anonymous):
@Anonymous:

Well, I can say the same thing about my µA1. It handles everything including mail. I actually don't have a HD in my old system any more.

That said: It's more important that the pre-release runs fairly stable rather than having all features enabled. Its prime function is to be a tool for developers.
It's secondary function (something everyone around here can understand, because we know what it's been like the last couple of years) is a shiny new toy for the ones who bought the board to show their support.

It will do both well. I ran with the ISO that became the pre-release for several weeks and it worked very well and as far as AmigaOS goes in comparison to 3.9 was fairly feature complete with only a few things missing but on the other hand it had some things my 3.9 never had.

But again: It is mainly intended to give a fairly stable work environment and that it does. Surprisingly stable for a beta state OS.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 30 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 08:34 GMT
As far as I can tell the TBD list for OS4 is growing rather than shrinking. Last September Ben Hermans asserted that 98% of the feature list was coded, with only some conversions to PPC and a few "minor" modules (such as OpenGL) still to be done. Fast forward to today and we see that whole swathes of functionality are missing from the developer preview. You might argue that we're seeing a branch taken back at Christmas when this "preview" was first promised -- but that's long after Ben made this statement.

Would anyone like to add to this list of missing features in the preview? Any privileged beta testers want to identify bits which are now in beta?

* USB bus manager & drivers
* VM Swap
* SNAP graphics drivers
* Just-in-time M68k -> PPC translator
* Mount Rainier
* 3D acceleration
* IDE DMA
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 31 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler/Pagan on 08-Jun-2004 08:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
I do hope I'm not overstepping my boundaries by saying "several".

There's one level of testing before we humble beta testers get the stuff though, so more than I know about is being tested as we speak.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 32 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Emeric SH):
> Some linux users still prefer to use console instead of a GUI. Food for thought
> maybe?

Do you want to imply that Linux GUIs have severe limitations compared to command line interfaces? I think it is rather the other way around, especially considering you can start multiple CLI within a GUI as well.

From what I heard, the main reason not to replace Ambient with Workbench 3.9/3.5 for people was losing the eye-candy.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 33 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Jupp3 on 08-Jun-2004 09:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Guest):
>From what I heard, the main reason not to replace Ambient with Workbench 3.9/3.5 for people was losing the eye-candy.

Yep, that's likely the main reason. But that doesn't mean that there couldn't be other reasons aswell.

Maybe majority of Linux users prefer graphical user interfaces, but that sure doesn't mean that every user does.

Well, even some (but NOT every) Amiga & Morphos users prefer using command shell!
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 34 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Jun-2004 09:34 GMT
In AWN I saw a comment from OS4 user using IBrowse 2.3. Is MUI 3.9 (PPC) now part of pre-release?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 35 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Thomas Würgler/Pagan on 08-Jun-2004 09:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (itix):
The MUI version on the pre-release is 68k and in contributions.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 36 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Emeric SH):
"Don't think that a firewire stack should decide about the state of an OS. "

It should in the case of an OS that was famous for video editing and animation.

It should in the case of an OS for hardware that has a Firewire port built in.

However, the important thing really is what an enormous amount _has_ been done by these three very small teams, rather than what is still to do (which is plenty). But if you are going to argue about alpha-beta, then IMO all three Amiga-style OSes are in alpha, and will be for at least another 18 months.

Compare OS X (which I don't have nor particularly want, but it _is_ a complete working PPC OS).
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 37 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 08-Jun-2004 09:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Anonymous):
Did you even read what SieGeL wrote in his review ? Did you read what he said about OS4 ?

He was quite happy with the prerelease. The review was quite positive.

It's quite interestiung that only people which seem not to be happy with OS4 pre-release are you and some other blue trolls who don't even care about the whole OS4!!

Those guys who I have been talking with (in IRC and IRL) are quite happy with OS4 prerelease. If you know someone who is not then sure, you never can please everyone.

You really should understand that we are talking about developer prerelease. This is not latest beta version, how could it be ? Sure there has been lot's of progress since pre-release CD-image was done.

And so what if there is no PPC native Picasso96 etc in the pre-release ? Sure everyone did know it already !! It was quite clear that those are not ready yet. So if someone is surprised that those are not included then maybe he can't read, because it was said manytimes before pre-release CDs arrived !!

Those who now have prerelease knew it that it is not completed OS4, they knew it that it is not lates beta.

Still people are happy that they can start using it, vecause it is wery much usable already. People are happy that they can start using OS4 and coding for it. People are happy because now they can start using AmigaOne for what they bought it.

It seems to me that only reason why you are whinig here is that people did not like first MOS release and complained about it. It seems to me that you just wont to revenge. if that's true then get a life.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 38 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (hooligan/dcs):
">Some linux users still prefer to use console instead of a GUI. Food for thought maybe?

Yikes I know a couple.. *shudders*"

There's nothing wrong with a command line. If you want somebody to do something for you, do you ask in words, or do you draw pictures, wave your arms about, and jump up and down?

A GUI is obviously best for a paint or DTP program. A "verbal GUI" like DOpus4 is good for file management. A CLI is good for running utilities, like pdftops.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 39 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 10:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
"Would anyone like to add to this list of missing features in the preview? Any privileged beta testers want to identify bits which are now in beta?

* USB bus manager & drivers
* VM Swap
* SNAP graphics drivers
* Just-in-time M68k -> PPC translator
* Mount Rainier
* 3D acceleration
* IDE DMA"

Firewire
Unicode
MIDI

What is the state of Catweasel support?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 40 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 08-Jun-2004 10:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Anonymous):
You don't seem to understand that not all of those features have never been planned for the first OS4.0 version. Many of those features is planned for the OS4 versions coming AFTER the first full version (4.1, 4.2 etc)

Sure quite many features were also planned for the later version, but will be included in the first 4.0 release. that's one reason why OS4.0 development has taken so much time. OS4.0 will include stuff which was planned for the later versions.

Anyway you should understand that not all features in OS4 feature list are planned for the OS4.0. Some will come in updates after release of 4.0, some will come in OS4.1 etc.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 41 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jun-2004 10:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Don Cox):
>There's nothing wrong with a command line. If you want somebody to do something for you, do you ask in words, or do you draw pictures, wave your arms about, and jump up and down?

Didn't I tell I use Shell quite a lot? =)

I don't like jumping... sports kills.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 42 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (hooligan/dcs):
Actually I like both GUI&CLI for different purposes. That's one of the things I like about AmigaOS, it has both a powerful GUI as well as CLI.

IMO most things are done faster and easier in and GUI environment. Only with certain utilities it's easier to use a short command in a CLI with its parameters than to search through the huge amount of GUI icons/commands of the C directory and then still have to fill out the required parameters.

To have solely a CLI running is IMO very limited though, a GUI can IMO be far more powerful and elegant for most operations.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 43 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Jun-2004 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (miksuh):
"You don't seem to understand that not all of those features have never been planned for the first OS4.0 version. Many of those features is planned for the OS4 versions coming AFTER the first full version (4.1, 4.2 etc)"

It has never been very clear what Hyperion's plans are. I think they are just pushing forward as best they can.

It is a great success so far, and there is a long way to go. What names or numbers they stick on the various releases are not important. What is important is that Hyperion (and the MorphOS and AROS teams) stay in business and keep going until they have OSes that can stand up beside OS X.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 44 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Kronos on 08-Jun-2004 10:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Don Cox):
You mean till 2165 ?
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 45 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jun-2004 10:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Don Cox):
> But if you are going to argue about alpha-beta, then IMO all three Amiga-style OSes are in alpha, and will be for at least another 18 months.

That's funny, in countless areas MorphOS is far, far ahead of the existing AmigaOS 3.9 and yet you seem to think it is alpha ;) Ambient is a mixed bag but the rest of the OS is release quality material (and the new Ambient is on the way).
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 46 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 08-Jun-2004 10:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
If you are sure it's "release quality" then why haven't they made any firest final release, when the beta status can be removed first time.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 47 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by miksuh on 08-Jun-2004 10:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (miksuh):
first
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 48 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Jun-2004 10:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Don Cox):
> There's nothing wrong with a command line. If you want somebody to do something
> for you, do you ask in words, or do you draw pictures, wave your arms about, and
> jump up and down?

LOL, that's a good one :-)
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 49 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Guest on 08-Jun-2004 11:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Anonymous):
> existing AmigaOS 3.9

Eventhough OS3.9 is a bit old now (December 2000 release) MOS is only ahead in some areas (especially in the eye-candy department) while being behind in other areas. IMO the this pre-release of AmigaOS4 is ahead of AmigaOS 3.9 in *all* areas already, but in some areas not yet as much as MOS.
First review of OS4-pre? : Comment 50 of 149ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jun-2004 11:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Guest):
"Eventhough OS3.9 is a bit old now (December 2000 release) MOS is only ahead in some areas (especially in the eye-candy department) while being behind in other areas. IMO the this pre-release of AmigaOS4 is ahead of AmigaOS 3.9 in *all* areas already, but in some areas not yet as much as MOS."

MorphOS is the counterpart of AmigaOS, and Ambient of Workbench.

To be honest, you have to look very hard and being very biased to find only those areas where the current prerelease of AmigaOS4 offers more than MorphOS. Both is in active development, but the side where MorphOS offers more than AmigaOS4 is still overwhelming, and most probably will remain so for a very very long time.
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