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[Motd] Former advertiser refusing to payANN.lu
Posted on 15-May-2000 12:21 GMT by Christian Kemp34 comments
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As you may remember, AmigaOnline.net advertised on ANN for a duration of about 35 days. It's now been one and a half month since I invoiced them for the first time, and it looks like they are refusing to pay for both the months of March and April, leaving me with over $500 of unpaid advertising. After making promises of payment, then disputing the amount to be paid, and finally no longer replying to my emails, I don't see any other possibility to get my money than to go public with this information and to ask you for any help you could possibly offer. If needed, I can disclose all emails exchanged, as well as extensive server logs, to prove that I fulfilled my part of the deal.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 1 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Dave Collupy on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
You go, Christian! I know what it's like to get stiffed for money. In fact,
I'm dealing with a lamer of my own right now . . .
Put on some pressure. I wish you the best of luck and keep up this great site!
Peace,
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 2 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by David Liddle on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
I'm sure we will all remember this when it comes to making purchase decisions.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 3 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Give 'em hell!!! All ANN supporters should now add AmigaOnline to their black-lists until they cough-up the cash.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 4 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Paolo "Mod3m" D'Urso on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
It seems they're not the only ones who forget to pay Amiga developers or supporters.
I had some kind of these experiences with Alive Mediasoft. They distributed my program Extreme since July 1999, and I never received any money from them.
After I wrote tons of emails, they replied that bank were closed in UK due to bankholiday and they would have sent the money the next monday to my bank account.
After 2 weeks where I didn't received nothing, I wrote them again and I got a short reply "your money it's in the post".
Waiting, waiting, waiting, they told me the package turned back to them.
And I'm not the only to haven't be payed for my work: Mark Sheeky, the author of Blade, never was payed for his game by Alive Mediasoft, and I've heard that also the authors of Turbo Racer 3d and The Prophet didn't received any money.
At the end, why complaining the Amiga market? Better develop for other markets, where sales are much higher and publishers are more honest.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 5 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Szutoman on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
This is truly a sad day. I will be spreading the word about Amigaonline and thier bad faith. Its hard enough to make it as an Amiga service and for this to happen is just plain sad and disgusting. You do have legal rights and you can sue them! Better yet, file a complaint with the Better Business Buraeu. All corespondence through email can be used in courts to prove you had a contract. They have breached the contract through bad faith, unless somone dies, the product is destroyed in a fire, they owe you!!!!
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 6 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Its not of you business on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Paolo "Mod3m" D'Urso):
Oops! That means that Darkage is leaving the Amiga? :(
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 7 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Jofre Furtado on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
I say- the hell with them!
This is a "VALUED" Amiga website and forum discussion site. If they don't want to pay, stop advertising them. Find someone else- they obviously don't want the advertising.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 8 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Where are they located?
If you don't get your money, you can only sue.
Do you have a written contract?
Some of you people out there are so careless about things like contracts.
Afterwards you come to us lawyers complaining but usually there is little we can do without a written contract.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 9 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Remco Komduur on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
I really hate these kind of people and companies. These companies
should be boycotted. We don't need them.
It's bad for the faith in the Amiga industry. I hope they are man
enough to cough up the cash and come with a real explanation and
not some bad, weak one.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 10 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Mike Bouma on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
- If you don't get your money, you can only sue.
I think Christian made the right choice to go public with this. Sueing often costs too much money and takes too much time. AmigaOnline.net better pay fast and apologize or come up with a solid explanation or excuse (i.e. a pending bankruptcy)
Without working together the Amiga community wouldn`t have survived. A boycott would hurt AmigaOnline.net more than paying this relative small amount of cash.
Sincerely, Mike Bouma.
http://www.stormloader.com/amiga
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 11 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Paolo "Mod3m" D'Urso on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Its not of you business):
Not, we're not leaving the Amiga, and the proof is that these days 2 of our products will be released (Amiga Classix 2 and Powerball) by Epic Marketing.
But we had to start developing on ther systems too because we're no more able to pay stuff like Italian taxes, Internet phonebill, etc.. every copy sold helps to continue developing on the Amiga :(
Note: I'm not complaining about the Amiga market and people, but it's just a decision we had to take: close Darkage or start developing on other systems too.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 12 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Don't feel bad. I got burned by an Amiga store in Anaheim, CA, called Transdata Systems
to the tune of $900cdn.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 13 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
It disgusts me in the sheer utter unprofessionalism of this market; or
at least the way it is going. Some people really need to think hard
about the consequences of their actions. Christian - all the best in
your fight for your cash, but I sure hope you have a written contract!
:)
This is a sad day.... :/
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 14 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Colin Wilson on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Publish their email addresses
- loyal readers like me are sure to be willing to spam them into email oblivion :-)
When they start to lose orders amongst all the spam mail, maybe they`ll act, and pay up.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 15 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Esteve Boix on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Well... Since it seems to be in topic: Ferst Computer (Germany) seems to have the same idea about how to help Amiga developers: Collect registrations and never paying the author :(
The only way to help us is simply passing the information.
Regards,
Esteve
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 16 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Esteve Boix on 14-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Well... Since it seems to be in topic: Ferst Computer (Germany) seems to have the same idea about how to help Amiga developers: Collect registrations and never paying the author :(
The only way to help us is simply passing the information.
Regards,
Esteve
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 17 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Paolo "Mod3m" D'Urso):
(and also #16)
It's a shame that these things still can happen in the age of the internet! Do you remember ClickBOOM? And many of us heard yet something similar. It's not just immoral, or so, but criminal and illegal. And sometimes these 'companies' even menace news-sites with sueing because of telling the truth... What a crazy! And developers even feel ashamed to speak about such things. IMHO, it's time to change that for ever! (A dedicated site???)
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 18 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Anonymous):
Truth about Clickboom,
you know we got ripped off by Clickboom? for the Game they claimed to be there's "Quake". Yes we coded the 68k Version and they didnt end up paying us, dont listen to there shit about the reasons there was no PPC version, we did develop a PPC version.. they didnt pay us the money... Alexander Petrovic in our eyes is nothing but a thief!! I have proof, contract details, and also all versions of quake from v0.10 to v0.96 Clickboom versions of quake, inc. Source Code.
I think we need to put up a new site with Amiga Compliants about companies ripping off the amiga community!
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 19 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Chris on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
I think that stinks!!!! if they wanna use you then they should be prepared to pay..
I think that you provide a valuable service and if they care about the amiga in any way then they will pay you soon!!!
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 20 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Harv on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Good luck suing a company in another country. The lawyer's fees alone will
cost him a lot more than the $500.00 he's after.
I wrote for the last two dozen issues of .info magazine back in the late 80s and
early 90s. The editor kept asking me to submit my next column. Then the checks
stopped coming. I kept asking when I'd get paid and got excuses.
Then .info shut down in 1991 and its owner/publisher, Benn Dunnington,
declared bankruptcy. I got a nice official letter from the bankruptcy court
stating that I could not sue him for back pay, for which I held a written
contract, until the case was settled. The case was settled, and I got another
nice official letter from the court saying that he was now protected by
bankruptcy laws and I couldn't sue him at all.
I am in Calif. .info was in Iowa. I went to my local Small Claims court and
asked if I could sue them. I was told "only if they have any tangible assets
in Calif." Well kiss that $2,000 goodbye. I couldn't afford to travel to
Iowa and sue them there. So in that case, a written contract wasn't worth
toilet paper.. Benn made his money off my writing, and split, owing me and
a bunch of the other regular monthly columnists roughly $2,000 each.
Sometime later, I found that he had put up a web site with scans of his personal
collection of casino chips, including many $25.00 chips. He could afford to
go to casinos and bring home chips, but he couldn't afford to pay his regular
writers.
I had a similar experience with American People/Link the same year, 1991.
Plink decided to shut down owing me over a month's pay. I had (and still
have) a 24 page written contract with them. Again, toilet paper. In both
cases I had written contracts, in both cases I couldn't collect a cent and
lost over $5,000 in income due to me, for work which I had done, for which
I was contracted to be paid.
So good luck trying to collect $500.00 from a company in another country who
has decided not to pay you. If you manage to do it, I'd sure like to know
how it was done.
harv
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 21 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Perhaps if I could find thir e-mail address I could voice my displeasure.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 22 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Maybe these 'bad' companies mis-interpret 'Capitalism' for good...
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 23 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by anymouse on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Well, if you cannot sue, Perhaps people not buying the Boxer Computer that Dan, Owner of Antigravity is building, will persuade him to change his business practices....
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 24 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Andrew Korn on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Ben Hermans is exactly right - get yourself a nice strong contract, make sure both parties understand exactly what the terms are, and if possible write in a late payment penalty.
Unfortunately there are sharks in the Amiga market as anywhere else. We've had problems with one or two advertisers who were under the impression that paying for advertisements was voluntary too. However I do have one question for Christian - $500 for 35 days on an Amiga website? That sounds awfully steep. If the pricing structure was not made apparent, a bill like that could have come as quite a shock.
Cheers,
Andrew Korn
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 25 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Andrew Korn):
We had agreed on $3 CPM, the same amount the AWD used to be taking. This is
way below industrial average for *targeted* advertising.
Don't forget, the banner was displayed 169,628 times. This is extensive
marketing, for all of April they were the only Amiga advertiser too, and as
such I feel like the price I was asking was justified. Thousands of Amiga
visitors saw their banner ad every day. I don't think there's a better way
to build up a corporate image for an internet-related service.
That being said, I would have been happy to renegociate the ad rates for the
months to come. But to just refuse payment for services already delivered is
not the right way to do business.
Furthermore, I did bill them for the month of March on April 2nd, so they knew
how much advertising would set them back per day. Yet, they had the compaign
running for all of April.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 26 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Kent Seaton on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Andrew Korn):
Are you sure that $500 is for 35 days or for six months of advertising or three months of advertising. I've seen the advertising layouts on most of the major Amiga web sites and I have generally found the more popular sites run about 500-1000 for the whole year whereas 225-750 is an average for six months depending on the site and amount of traffic. However, if CK is doing a CPC (cost per click) method, it can get as high as $500 for 35 days. Heck, I've seen over $350,000 spent from one site for six months, granted it wasn't an Amiga based site though. Also I believe that that particular advert was some sort of affiliates plan paid out to some umpteen million people.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 27 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Kent Seaton):
The $500 actually translate to a CPM of 3$. The AWD used to sell advertising that way too, at least for some time. Last time I talked to Petra, amiga-news.de was selling ads for a monthly flat rate. I don't have any idea as to how amiga.org and Czech Amiga News are handling things.
I don't know any other Amiga site carrying paid adverts.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 28 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 15-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Kent Seaton):
We also have to look at the value of gauranteed, front page, solus masthead position. Other pricing deals may be run of site, which is a different proposition.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 29 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Andrew Korn on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Christian Kemp):
Don't get me wrong Christian, I'm not likely to disagree with the proposition that they should pay you for services you have delivered at the rate they agreed. If they don't like it, they shouldn't have agreed, but they can't go back now.
However I can see that if they weren't thinking or paying attention, that bill could have come as quite a shock. It seems like a rather large sum for a site which may be big by Amiga terms but isn't exactly mass marketing.
CPM probably isn't the right billing model for a site which is going to have a lot of repeat visitors and a lot of multiple clicks per visitor. I'd have thought that a flat rate or CPC would be a better approach.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 30 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Andrew Korn):
Always remember, while ANN may not be a large site globally speaking, it is
one of the major sites in this niche. If somebody is advertising Amiga
products here, he has an excellent opportunity of reaching potential buyers.
A CPC pricing model wouldn't be fair for me, since it doesn't take into account
the advertising (image-building) that is already made just by a visitor seeing
the banner. A visitor may look at a banner ten times, a hundred times. He
then stumbles across the advertised site by different means, remembers that
he saw it a lot on ANN, considers the site as reliable and makes a purchase for
$1000. With a CPC model, the shop would have made quite a nice profit whereas
I wouldn't have been paid at all, even though the sale may only have happened
because the buyer "knew" the advertiser from previous ad views on ANN.
A flat rate is pretty much the same as a CPM model, in my eyes. Except that the
later caters for increases or decreases in visitors. If I had promised 200,000
pageviews per month, asked a flat rate of $500, but after the end of the month
only delivered 100,000 pageviews, the advertiser wouldn't have been happy. So
CPM gives me a means of assuring that the advertiser gets what he pays for - if
ANN is not popular he has to pay less; if ANN gets more exposures and therefore
displays the banner to more people, then I feel it is justified to present a
larger bill.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 31 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by consumer_help@egroups.co on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT
Please join this site by emailing consumer_help@egroups.com dont expect too
much at this stage. But I am looking for anyone that has been ripped off by
Amiga Companies or Individuals or any other companies, from here I can
build a web database and expose these thieves. I am looking for anyone
that can help also, if there are any lawyers out there, please join too!
This is going to be a start for protection against the consumer!
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 32 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by frlnce on 16-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Harv):
I had money owed me for contract work, and they were out of state. Since everything was handled through the mail, I was told I could file suit in federal court. That was in 1994, and I received my money. Not that much, but to me it was important.
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 33 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by a-nony-mouse on 17-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (consumer_help@egroups.co):
Protection /against/ the consumer?
Former advertiser refusing to pay : Comment 34 of 34ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 18-May-2000 22:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
(800) 747-2848
(310) 399-8785
sales@antigravity.com
Customer Service
(310)399-7782
service@antigravity.com
Technical support
(310)399-7446
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