| MorphOS out now : Comment 1 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | | Have anyone tested this? It would be very interesting to hear what it's like ... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 2 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Conor on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | | Fair play to Ralph for actually coding it but I can't help windering why he bothered.... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 3 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Conor on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 2 (Conor):
or "wondering" even :) |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 4 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Jens on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | At the first glance, it doesn't look any different from the original AmigaOS. In fact, it uses everything that is not native already through the emulation. The only thing I noticed was that my SCSI hard disk didn't work anymore (blizzppc.device isn't supported yet) and that my 68040 has morphed into a 68060 magically ;).
I haven't run any benchmark yet, so I can say nothing about the speed, but the emulation seems to be at least as fast as my 040. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 5 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Paul Heams on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 3 (Conor):
I haven't yet looked at it (downloading now), but can you say why you don't like
it?? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 6 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 4 (Jens):
What type of PPC do you have? Did any tests yet? Only totally system-friendly stuff works? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 7 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Jah on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | I succeded in booting my os3.5 under morphos on my Cyberstorm233-060/50.
The 68k emulation seems to be fast : aproximatively 75% of my 060/50
So fast that i have doubts about the 68k emulation. I want proofs that it is not my 060 running
The cgxaga seems to have serious display bugs (but it's beta)
If it's a real 68k emulation it sound interresting
I didn't notice yet any ppc acceleration relative to the native ppc os and the no more existing slow down from context-switch
Testing to be continued .... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 8 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Paul Heams on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | Not bad. I got it to run on a seperate partition with OS3.5. The 68K emulation appears to be pretty good. My 240mhz 603e managed a fair rate, though in some tests it was a fair bit slower than my 25mhz 040.
There is certainly potential for it (maybe with a PPC only Boxer?). However, currently there is not enough advantage to tear me away from from my Warpos Setup. In the future..... maybe...... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 9 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | | I hope someone will upload a thorough test on Aminet... (Apps, P96Speed, AIBB, etc.) |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 10 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 8 (Paul Heams):
Can you tell me for which apps you get a slowdown ?
Well..with a 240Mhz 603e i thought it always beats
your 25Mhz 40....Maybe only extensive shift instructions
+ bitfields could cause this. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 11 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Steve Zoneff on 01-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | Well I had it running last night. I think that this is an incredible achievement.
One of the above posts mention that they noticed no difference from their normal bootup.
This is a sign of how good this thing is. The m68k emulation looks totaly transparent to the machine.
I was not even convinced that my 68040 was turned off! (a later look at sysconfig showed that I had a
68060 which was a give away, and sysinfo says that I have a 68040 running at 1Mhz.).
The speed of the emulation was (In my opinion) excellent for my 166Mhz 603. Sysinfo (I know it is old) says I get 8 MIPS.
I didn't get a chance to test any native PPC stuff however. I will do that tonight.
Well done Ralph.
Steve Z |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 12 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Daniel Allsopp on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 2 (Conor):
I'm very interested in MorphOS because I (like many people I suppose) aren't interested in the crap Amiga Inc. are spewing out with their OS/SDK/AmigaOne. It's not an Amiga, never will be, in my opinion might I add.
So, I think with an OS that looks EXACTLY like the current OS, but is native PPC, is only a good thing!! PPC MUI, CyberGraphX, Voyager et all.....breathes a completely new piece of life into the machine, much more than Amiga have done or ever will do.
Well done Ralph, exactly what I want ;)
-
Daniel |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 13 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by jah on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 12 (Daniel Allsopp):
I agree with you Amiga Inc plan to build a computer which will never be an amiga (programming amiga on pc with sdk lol )
But what are the advantages of MorphOS for the computer of the classic generation ?
I bought my 060 a lot of money and morphos pretend to replace it with emulation on ppc:
so the ppc is slowed down by emulating the 060
How could it be faster than the amigaos we already have ? the amigaos use the both cpu and morphos only one !
Why emulating a cpu which we already have rather than just use it ?
It's the fisrt 060 emulation i see and it's working, well done !
But as long as we have 68k in our amiga and not ppc only amiga i dont really see the advantages of this os |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 14 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Carl Mohlin on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 13 (jah):
Because now we are able to run REAL PPC-only programs + with this solution it will be easier to step further to a PPC-only system. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 15 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Daniel Allsopp on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 13 (jah):
But isn't porting MUI, CGX, Voyager, SFS Filesystem for a BETA release not a huge step in makeing the 68k redundent? More and more classic apps (the big important ones anyway) will be ported to PPC only, making them faster, a BIG advtanage. And for those who want to run software which isn't in production anymore, you'll still have the 68k emulation there too.
I use my Amiga for the Internet (MUI, Voyager) and writing software. Two of my mostly used apps are there to start with, we would now need PPC versions of Miami, YAM, etc. Vapor has already commited to making its products PPC only for this OS. So, that's the internet side of things covered for a PPC only amiga system.
The software development, will I'm sure H&P would support a PPC only version of StormC, if not then we have GCC to write software with, someone will just write a nice PPC only IDE for it.
Other apps which are currently in production, CandyFactory, Photogenics, etc, i.e. all the software which is currently useful could be ported.
As I say, older software such as Lightwave, PPaint, could be used under the 68k. Lightwave would be a bit slow though...hmmm
--
A few suggestions for future MorphOS could be, since they have sources to SFS, multi-user support, and a true OS integration of Samba, that source is available anyway isn't it?
-
Daniel |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 16 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Paul Heams on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 10 (Ralph Schmidt):
In answer to Ralph's questions:
I have only tested Morphos with real life test (IE: running applications and not actually running timing tests). I can say that the actual operation of workbench feels a little slower as well as MUI apps, scrolling in Voyger, considerable slowdown in some WB games (WB Asteriods), and Foundation running a tad slower. Other apps such as wb tools (EditPad), cli commands etc appear to run quicker.
Don't get me wrong though, I am very impressed - I'm not expecting the earth out of a 240mhz 603e emulating a 68K!
I can see a lot of potential for what you have done - Well done! Do you have any plans with H&P / Amiga for a future PPC Classic OS (?!? Touchy subject ?!?). |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 17 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 13 (jah):
Hi
Ralph Schimdt is planning to port MorphOS to other hardware
platforms like iMac, PowerMAc G3/G4 or forthcoming IBM POP
hardware depending on the feedback from the users...
if it is working at %75 performance of a real 060 on 604/233
Think of what it would achieve on a G3 or G4 with proper L2 caches,e.t.c |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 18 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Jah on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 15 (Daniel Allsopp):
I agree with the fact that apps are going ppc only.
But there is two way to go to ppc : WUP and PUP
And MorphOs only support PUP
Do you think Hyperion and Impulse(Imagine is the only real ppc 3d soft today)
will rewrite all their apps to PUP ? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 19 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Daniel Allsopp on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 18 (Jah):
That is the one thing that is currently wrong with MorphOS, as good as it is, it doesn't support the more popular WarpOS.
And I'm afraid that if they don't sort the petty bickering out about WUP or PUP this great project will go into exactly the same state as PPC cards did when they appeared...
If Ralph is committed to PUP, the least he can do is include some sort of support for WUP too, or is project is dead.
-
Daniel |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 20 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mekanix on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (Sinan Gurkan):
But is POP happening? Or is it an eternal "almost there" like the vapour-BoXeR?
It's been a *long* time since there have been any news on POP. Making a search on google hardly gives you any hits from this millenium. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 21 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by sutro on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | Couldn't make it to work on a clean 3.5 Workbench.
"CD: unable to open redirection file"
"CD failed returncode 10"
I also tried to put the exact path of the rom files in the startup's statement without any success.
The whole installation is a mess, I hope this does not make justice to the final product.
sutrro |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 22 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Frank on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 21 (sutro):
: .. Unable to open redirection file ...
Removing the "s" (script) protection bit from the binary files might help
tar adds the "s" protection bit for some reason |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 23 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Chris on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 18 (Jah):
> But there is two way to go to ppc : WUP and PUP
> And MorphOs only support PUP
> Do you think Hyperion and Impulse(Imagine is the only real ppc 3d soft today)
> will rewrite all their apps to PUP ?
I doubt it, I know I won't be (my games use WarpUP & MiniGL). Any serious WarpOS
projects i know of are too far into development to change them anyway, it's easier
to just drop them and do linux versions - at least you actually get a market then
too.. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 24 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mark Olsen on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 17 (Sinan Gurkan):
What i tried of it was pretty slow. If i have to be generous, an estimate would be 020@28mhz for most things. A little higher for others. Running on a 240mhz 603e. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 25 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Conor on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 12 (Daniel Allsopp):
> I'm very interested in MorphOS because I (like many people I suppose) aren't > interested in the crap Amiga Inc. are spewing out with their OS/SDK/AmigaOne.
I don't think that there are as many people who think like that as you would LIKE to believe.
It's easy to call something you just don't understand (or aren't prepared to consider) crap but it's probably the most M$ like way to go about things that there ever could be.
> It's not an Amiga, never will be, in my opinion might I add.
The definition of what makes and Amiga an Amiga is subjective but could you explain to me exactly how is a PowerUp-powered Amiga running a differnet OS an "Amiga" anyway?
If you think that an Amiga is something that runs an OS almost identical in function to the real Amigas then you can use that limited view, that's up to you. However, I'd prefer to use a definition of Amiga that takes into consideration the principles behind its design. If there's one OS out there that can even come close to capturing those founding principles the Ami is it.
> So, I think with an OS that looks EXACTLY like the current OS, but is native > PPC, is only a good thing!!
It is if it is used solely as a way to continue on the current Classic OS, but as a new version of an OS aimed at making computing more productive it's not needed, there are better solutions out there, QNX for example.
> PPC MUI, CyberGraphX, Voyager et all.....
....would all be better developed for a more modern OS IMO.
> breathes a completely new piece of
> life into the machine, much more than Amiga have done or ever will do.
You should be able to use the new Amiga OS on your PowerPC-powered Amiga, an OS which is a hell of a lot better than the Classic OS, I'd say that's a fairly good way of breathing new life into your machine! :)
> Well done Ralph, exactly what I want ;)
I think it's a great achievement. There's many better things that he could have done though, it's a pity he used his obviously fantastic skills in what will turn out to be a fairly meaningless manner.
All the best..
Conor |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 26 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 24 (Mark Olsen):
What have you tried ? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 27 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 26 (Ralph Schmidt):
Why don't you change your ABI and everybody can run WarpOS code as well as MorpOS code? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 28 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 27 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
1) Because SystemV is the most used PPC ABI...the std gcc PPC ABI.
2) It`s the fastest, simplest and most flexible PPC ABI
3) Because the emulation structure for the PPC depends
*heavily* on it. It would not work otherwise.
But i have already said that numberous times...you may have unbiased
skilled ppc programmers in your line which could take a look at the
emulation docs to understand why it is implemented the way it was.
4) Your gcc enviroment probably also generates normal SystemV code
and the only thing you have to deal with PowerOpen conventions
is your "dll".
If you never touch R2 in your games then there is no problem as
you only require a new interface lib which does the work for
MorphOS. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 29 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 28 (Ralph Schmidt):
Okay, be that as it may (I'm noy qualified to judge) but it seems to me that you could do something to make sure people don't need a dual boot system.
Starting up the kernel war again (whether that is your intention or not) will most likely be very detrimental to your product and all PPC users out there.
I read what you said in Amiga Active about time limitations etc. but maybe you should take the time? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 30 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Anonymous on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 13 (jah):
Wouldn't it be strange if the Macintosh users would haven't accepted new (but Mac'ish) OS'es for their machines, but instead would just have complain about preparing the old one??? OK, that wasn't as good as AmigaOS, but 15 years are 15 years... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 31 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Mark Olsen on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | | Now if only the CGX V4.2pre7 patched worked. It would be nice to try MorphOS with a graphicscard. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 32 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Frederik on 02-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | The god thing abut MorphOS is that it only uses the PPC.
OK, right now, the fastest we have is 233 mhz 604, and a 68K emulation on that is slower
than an 060/50, but way faster than an 040/25.
Now just imagine Boxer with a 400 mhz G4 or even faster.
And what abut POP ?
MorphOS really kick ass.
/Frederik |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 33 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 29 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben...this is pointless. I have explained dozen times now that the
r2 issue is a *fundamental* problem. I have so much to do now to
finalize it and then i have even more to do to remove remaining
HW dependencies for a port to other HW that *I* don`t have time
to kludge WarpUP into it...and i really mean *Kludge*, because
it can probably only work outside the whole emulation enviroment
and that`s just a not really a thought through ""solution"" path.
Actually..a really dirty fix would be to run all Warpup code
under Forbid(); which is rather ironic from my perspective but
..well..i doubt you would like that:-)
Again for everybody...
WarpUP uses PowerOpen which uses the register R2 for TOC(SmallData)
which means...it changes it all the time.
MorphOS uses R2 as the *global* ptr to the EmulHandle which means
without a valid R2 PPC software can`t jump into Amiga Libs, Call
68k Code and most important..there would be no valid SR register
and A7 for the Task Dispatcher.
For people with 68k experience that`s like a bogus A7 and a killed
ExecBase.
And maybe there are some skilled people here which can look at
the docs and see *why* it was designed that way...because
it`s an ideal way to implement it.
If needed i can explain the issue in detail to the Frieden
brothers on phone so that the issue is understood by technical
people at your company. That`s all i can do for now... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 34 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 29 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben...this is pointless. I have explained dozen times now that the
r2 issue is a *fundamental* problem. I have so much to do now to
finalize it and then i have even more to do to remove remaining
HW dependencies for a port to other HW that *I* don`t have time
to kludge WarpUP into it...and i really mean *Kludge*, because
it can probably only work outside the whole emulation enviroment
and that`s just a not really a thought through ""solution"" path.
Actually..a really dirty fix would be to run all Warpup code
under Forbid(); which is rather ironic from my perspective but
..well..i doubt you would like that:-)
Again for everybody...
WarpUP uses PowerOpen which uses the register R2 for TOC(SmallData)
which means...it changes it all the time.
MorphOS uses R2 as the *global* ptr to the EmulHandle which means
without a valid R2 PPC software can`t jump into Amiga Libs, Call
68k Code and most important..there would be no valid SR register
and A7 for the Task Dispatcher.
For people with 68k experience that`s like a bogus A7 and a killed
ExecBase.
And maybe there are some skilled people here which can look at
the docs and see *why* it was designed that way...because
it`s an ideal way to implement it.
If needed i can explain the issue in detail to the Frieden
brothers on phone so that the issue is understood by technical
people at your company. That`s all i can do for now... |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 35 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by sutro on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 22 (Frank):
Many thanks !
It actually works now, albeit a bit slow for my taste.
I am very pleased with my classic amiga right now. When/if G3/G4 cards
ever come for amiga than we definetely need a PPC only solution that
emulates 68k on the fly.
I do not see why it is impossible to work together with the WarpOS
team in order to develop a consistent kernel that makes everyone
happy.
sutro |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 36 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by mr_W on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | Ralph, please do not forget to add VMM to MorphOS.
exec.library does lack one nice mmap(), and optional memory protection, like mprotect().
Otherwise, nice work. Shame that WOS software doesn't work, it always worked better than PUP. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 37 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by MagicSN on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 33 (Ralph Schmidt):
Hi!
I see the point about dependencies between System V
and your 68k Emulation...
Well, why don't you talk with the H&P people for a
change ? I fear without anything happening here
your system is doomed to fail... and they have
really good PPC Coders there.
Also I think personally it is madness to try
to setup a OS (okay, currently it is only a
68k Emulation System and no OS) single-handed-ly
"against everyone else involved".
Steffen |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 38 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Thomas Jensen on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 34 (Ralph Schmidt):
I've been wondering, wouldn't it be possible to write a (link/shared) library that provided *source level* compatability to WarpOS ?
That way apps could easily be cross-compiled for MorphOS/PUP/WOS.
I'm not suggesting that you (RS) should do it, but maybe some skilled developper is willing to try? |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 39 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 03-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 38 (Thomas Jensen):
Well..probably but a recompile from a 68k C source to PPC
MorphOS is dead easy as it`s the same enviroment. |
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| MorphOS out now : Comment 40 of 40 | ANN.lu |
| Posted by Thomas Jensen on 04-Aug-2000 22:00 GMT | In reply to Comment 39 (Ralph Schmidt):
I'd better soon take a deeper look at the dev archive :-) |
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| Anonymous, there are 40 items in your selection |
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