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[News] WOA2000 newsANN.lu
Posted on 09-Dec-2000 16:57 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä184 comments
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In an IRC conference (that was cut short by an attack from script kiddies...) today, Fleecy Moss stated that there's already 1.5 million orders placed for the Amiga DE. OS3.9 needs to sell 50000 copies in order to justify the development of a classic OS4. Earlier there was also a chat with an Elbox representative who, amongst other things, announced support for the AmigaDE running on the forthcoming SharkPPC boards. Amiga.org have the log from that.

WOA2000 news : Comment 1 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
1.5 million copies is *very* encouraging I think. To be honest I was not expecting anything above 50,000. I think that OS3.9 is going to have a tough time raising the 50000 sales though.
WOA2000 news : Comment 2 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Arne Karstensen on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Guess we can kiss OS 4.0 goodbye and concentrate on MorphOS then..
WOA2000 news : Comment 3 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
1.5 million orders placed? Without confirmed names, that statement is worth about 0.02$, if not less. As for the 50,000 copies requirement, I always thought that 3.5 sold less than half of that... Call me a sceptic, but to me this sounds too much like just another bunch of promises.
WOA2000 news : Comment 4 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Teemu I. Yliselä on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christian Kemp):
The 1.5 million sales are coming from the STB market, according to Fleecy. It does sound awfully lot, yes, but then there's huge growth to be expected in that market when digitv hits off. The figure for the necessary OS3.9 sales was based on exact financial calculations, apparently. I don't think they actually expect to sell that many copies.
WOA2000 news : Comment 5 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Elliott Olson on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
So, when can we see some pix of some of those mentioned Elbox displays at the show?
WOA2000 news : Comment 6 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Radfoo on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Any news on any other of the IRC conferences?
WOA2000 news : Comment 7 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by James Whelan on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
50,000 copies of 3.9? Terrific. Looks like we can say goodbye to 4.0
I was really disappointed to read this news. Surely Amiga Inc know well that if they shifted half of that figure they'd be doing well. While I am excited by the Amiga DE and am looking forward to trying it out, I can't help but get the feeling that setting such a high sales figure for 3.9 is Amiga's way of finally extricating themselves from further Classic OS releases. It's a great shame. There's tons more that could be done with it - the potential is enormous.
WOA2000 news : Comment 8 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Amiga Inc. really must have no idea of the Amiga market if they expect
50 000 copies of OS 3.9 to be sold. So I'm wondering why
they made such a statement that OS 4.0 is possible?
And for 1.5 million AmigaDEs already sold. Metabox also "sold"
millions of settop boxes and are now even not able to keep on their
sponsorship of a German sports club according to a newspaper.
And wasn't it Amiga, Inc. that said: "We don't make any announcements
about our products until they are finished."?
Funny also: They don't want anyone to split the Amiga market as Fleecy
told on IRC because he was asked about MorphOS.
But isn't it Amiga that splited the market already with AmigaDE and OS
3.9/4.0...?
BTW: Hyperion showed Heretic II running on a Voodoo card in a A4000
tower with Grex.
WOA2000 news : Comment 9 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Frederik on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
hey.. 3.5 did not even sell half as much..
no 4.0, what can we use usch a statement for then ???
WOA2000 news : Comment 10 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by sutro on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Same old story. The same was said for the 3.5 as far as I remember. It seems like a dirty trick to just sell more copies of 3.9 - they don't look enthusiastic about PPC at all. It's hard to sell 50000 copies not because there are too few potential buyers but because 3.9 does not offer much more than 3.5 or 3.1.
sutro
P.S. Hell, I 'll buy two copies (each for one of my top-end amigas) just because I need AmigaOS PPC desperately ;-)
WOA2000 news : Comment 11 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (sutro):
The figure of 50,000 is probably based on a rough calculation of what
it would cost to make a port. I would guess it would take 2 full time
programmers about 18 months.
Work that out in wages (German, probably).
Somebody pointed out that the code for the ROM is written on several
different C compilers and several assemblers. It will need a lot of
tidying - AROS might be a better bet, or some combunation of AROS and
Morphos.
WOA2000 news : Comment 12 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Richard on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
I have to say that I am astonished to read that Fleecy is supposed to have said they already have 1.5 million AmigaDE ordered. Why haven´t I had the chance to order it myself yet, I who follows the Amiga market daily ? This must be figures based on how many licenses they have given to other partners and 3rd party developers, ie SetTop boxes and stuff like that.
Anyway, I am eager to read more news but suppose I won´t get the details until tomorrow.
WOA2000 news : Comment 13 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Fredrik on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (David Scheibler):
>BTW: Hyperion showed Heretic II running on a Voodoo card in a A4000
>tower with Grex
Any nice fps to share? :-)
WOA2000 news : Comment 14 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by David Scheibler on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Fredrik):
Sorry I don't know as I wasn't there but some people said that it
looked very cool ;-) Even don't know if it was in hardware or software
mode...
WOA2000 news : Comment 15 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Nicholai Benalal on 08-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christian Kemp):
"TIY" =3D=3D "Teemu I. Ylisel=E4" writes:
The figure for the
TIY> necessary OS3.9 sales was based on exact financial calculations,
TIY> apparently.=20
There is no such thing as an exact financial calculation :-) The 50k
figure is nothing more than marketing imho
--
Nicholai Benalal
nicholai@altavista.net
WOA2000 news : Comment 16 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Brian H on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Aw come on guys and Gals. For Amiga to make any kind of money, they need to be able to sell x amount of units. Should Amiga spend resources on an OS that will sell less than 50 thousand? What if they end up selling about 10,000? Is it worth it to invest the time? Or does it make sense to expend energy with something that has sold 1.5 million units? I know we want the classic OS to continue because that's what we're used to and love, but the numbers just aren't there to make it realistic money wise for Amiga. And if they've truely sold 1.5 million units of the AmigaDE, I would encourage them to keep the momentum going at 100%.
WOA2000 news : Comment 17 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Mark Olsen on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Brian H):
They know they won't sell 50000, so this is as good as a plain no. If they raised the OS3.9 price a bit, it might have been possible. But with that no, and that they will hunt down MorphOS, they suck.
WOA2000 news : Comment 18 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by bbuilder on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
And the community is whining again.
1.5 million sold AmigaDEs is very GOOD news!
(even though it is only to set-top-boxes)
They said that 50000 target for OS3.9 sales for further encouraging people to buy OS3.9.
PEOPLE REALLY SHOULD BUY IT, if they care about the Classic Amiga.
And it does not split the community, it is a effort to keep the community happy with they (old) Amigas until new generation and applications come available.
(if OS4.0 is made and it comes available in 12 month from now, there is not any big apps for the AmigaDE yet)
-bbuilder
WOA2000 news : Comment 19 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (David Scheibler):
> And for 1.5 million AmigaDEs already sold. Metabox also "sold"
> millions of settop boxes and are now even not able to keep on their
> sponsorship of a German sports club according to a newspaper.
That's exactly my point, I was thinking of that example too.
I'm figuring that I really need to get around to bill Metabox for last month's ads now, after that news item. :)
WOA2000 news : Comment 20 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Stephen Illingworth on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Don't forget that the reason 3.5 sales were weak, was because 3.5 itself
was weak. I suspect I'm not the only person who exempted himself from the
3.5 experience for this reason.
I just wish H&P realised that they're producing an operating system. At
the moment they're distributing the modern equivalent of Fred Fish disks.
WOA2000 news : Comment 21 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Kay Are Ulvestad on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Stephen Illingworth):
> Don't forget that the reason 3.5 sales were weak, was because 3.5 itself
> was weak.
-
Err...why should I not forget what is not true? OS3.5 was a pretty good upgrade,
especially considering the .4 version jump and low price... As far as I can remember,
it got good reviews too... What would you require from an OS upgrade if you were
to buy it?
-
Kay
WOA2000 news : Comment 22 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Chris on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
> > Don't forget that the reason 3.5 sales were weak, was because 3.5 itself
> > was weak.
> -
> Err...why should I not forget what is not true? OS3.5 was a pretty good upgrade,
> especially considering the .4 version jump and low price... As far as I can remember,
> it got good reviews too... What would you require from an OS upgrade if you were
> to buy it?
Try focusing on two words: OS and UPGRADE. 3.5, and from the looks of it 3.9,
have very little "upgrade" as far as the OS is concerned. "Some" bugfixes to
a couple of libraries and a bundle of third party shareware and freeware apps
does NOT constitute an OS upgrade, it is a sick joke. An OS upgrade involves
fixing the problems that people have known about for YEARS, completing the work
that C= started but never finished, adding support for remotely modern hardware
on the lowest levels of the OS rather than bundling the patches other people
have done for you. OS upgrades are not a competition to see how may applications
you can fit on a CD, they are about bringing the OS up to a level where it doesn't
need third party patches or libraries to support RTG, RTA, virtual memory,
protected memory, improved scheduling and so on.
I am quite prepared to admit I am wrong, H&P merely needs to list the plethora
of bugs it has fixed and additions it has made TO THE ACTUAL OS. Not the list
of 3rd party programs and eye candy - I either do not need or already have
every, single application they list, or their superiors, plus a number of
applications and OS patches I have developed myself. Improvements to the
actual OS, the core libraries and resources, are the only things important
to me, not an "official" clock or task bar.
And anyone who wishes to complain about my attitude on this matter WRT the effect
on 3.9 sales and the likelihood of 4.0, please wake up. I seriously doubt that
there are 50,000 active Amiga users left in the world, and many of those that are
left will pirate 3.9 anyway. Anything I say isn't going to make 4.0 any more
or less likely - there's absolutely, utterly and undeniably no possibility that
4.0 will see the light of day if the target of 50,000 is remotely accurate.
WOA2000 news : Comment 23 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (Mark Olsen):
> But with that no, and that they will hunt down MorphOS, they suck.
They'd need a case to hunt down MorphOS. It doesn't contain anything
that is copyrighted by AI. Their so called 'stick' simply doesn't
exist.
WOA2000 news : Comment 24 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Emmanuel Lesueur on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
> OS3.5 was a pretty good upgrade, especially considering the .4
> version jump and low price...
The .4 version jump is nothing more than a marketing choice. It
doesn't change anything to the fact that they are selling a
software bundle under the name "OS upgrade".
> What would you require from an OS upgrade if you were to buy it?
Real improvements to the core of the OS, that can't be done by
third parties. E.g. provide extra exec functions to help getting
rid of lowlevel things like Forbid/Disable or accesses to
private OS structures. Move away from functions that are too
close to the hardware: e.g. proper replacements of the Blt#?
functions (especially the Mask one), or improvements to the
pattern filling system. Those things still require using
planar bitmaps. Improving that is not difficult, it's just a
matter of adding extra API functions. There are plenty of
simple things that could be done, and IMHO, it would have been
better to spend money by paying programmers to do that, rather
than by buying already available third parties software.
WOA2000 news : Comment 25 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
>Err...why should I not forget what is not true? OS3.5 was a pretty good upgrade,
>especially considering the .4 version jump and low price... As far as I can remember,
>it got good reviews too...
-
OS3.5 was not a *good* upgrade. I bought it, cause I want to see the os being developed further. All the addidions to the os was more or less to live without. A good patched os3.1 is just as good. Who needs buggy cursor support with icons, and glowicons that load slowly? Etc. OS3.9 is what OS3.5 should have been. And good reviews? Almost every shit released for the Amiga gets good reviews, cause if they don't, the developers will run off! Anyway, I have already ordered OS3.9 cause, as I said, it is what os3.5 should have been. Now there is no excuse for not buying it, cause it will be worthwhile for os3.5 isers and essentially 3.1/3.0 users. (I upgraded from 3.0 last time).
WOA2000 news : Comment 26 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
And let me add. The leap from OS2.0 to 3.0 was HUGE! Can we expect this from 4.0? I don't mean the looks and buzzwords, but the features of the O.S. I don't care that much about mem protection, and I understand it is hard to implement in AmigaOS, and VMEM? I like it per app, not in the core, I don't want my HD fragmented after 10 days of use. But at least, get some needed features like RTG and Retargetable Audio >OS: ;o)
Thanks.
WOA2000 news : Comment 27 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by XDelusion on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
I plan on buying OS 3.9, I did not purchase 3.5 cause my friends got it, and I thought it was just lame. An active desktop like effect does not make me want to go blow my cash. Now 3.9 Has a bit of Morph OS intergration, that is a good step cause that can be upgraded, and it is nice to see the support added at long last, also you really can not go wrong in the long run considering, this is the 1st Amiga OS that will not only install easy, but also install freshly with TCP/IP support, configurable tool menus, and a load of other things, that I don't even need to go into, that all in all will save me the task of spending a couple hours downloading and installing programs and what not just to make my OS feel at home.
If there is to be a 4.0, then I would expect to see a major UPGRADE, but if this is the last of the litter, then it is definatly a relief to see that we at least did not get stuck with 3.5 to build off of.
WOA2000 news : Comment 28 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Sinan Gurkan on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Hi
I think it is time for MorphOS team to licence AmigaOS from AmigaInc...If it is made official..I am sure every developer will support it...
WOA2000 news : Comment 29 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Franklin Cheney on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (XDelusion):
If the people who chose not to buy the expensive proprietory
hardware upgrades in the past will use the new PCI boards to
wake up their closeted, virgin, unexpanded Amigas, we may
well see a transition to 50000 users over the next 6 months...
and many more than that when new motherboards are on sale.
As long as we can use PeeCee memory, G3/4 processors, and
off the shelf cards, assuming the price point is BELOW $800 for
motherboard + 128 meg + 500mghtzG3, the future should be brighter
and brighter, not even counting yet what MorphOS might yield...
WOA2000 news : Comment 30 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Richie on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Franklin Cheney):
There is no way a pci board with 500mhz ppc, 128mb, etc. will be sold
for less than $800. PPC accelerators for the 1200 are like $600.
Better luck next time.
There's always winuae, which will run on an entire computer costing
less than $800. If you buy a really cheap computer, get a monitor as
well!
Hoping AROS can be done.
Richie
WOA2000 news : Comment 31 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Roj on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
> What would you require from an OS upgrade if you were to buy it?
Had C= not gone under, I wholeheartedly believe OS 4.0 from C= would've had an advanced HTML datatype, and enabled MultiView to be used as an OS-Level browser with a fully function HTML datatype. Then you'd have proprietary companies writing official datatypes, like a QT datatype from Apple, a Windows Media datatype from Microsoft, a PDF datatype from Adobe, all built into the OS properly and all tying into MultiView/AmigaGuide as a real browser. This is what I expect in an upgrade. Not this slap here, slap there nonsense that exists currently.
Maybe Multiview and the existing datatype structure isn't advanced enough to allow this type of functionality. Aha! Therein lies the true need for an UPGRADE rather than just a patch. Datatypes are seriously underused, and it looks like H&P are moving even further away from them, which is a step in the wrong direction.
WOA2000 news : Comment 32 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Kent Seaton on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Richie):
> There is no way a pci board with 500mhz ppc, 128mb, etc. will be sold
> for less than $800. PPC accelerators for the 1200 are like $600.
> Better luck next time.
> There's always winuae, which will run on an entire computer costing
> less than $800. If you buy a really cheap computer, get a monitor as
> well!
Richie, honestly now. Have you ever bothered to use an Amiga with PPC and a graphics card? Let me give you an example of WinUAE. To my right is an A4KT with a CSPPC 060/604 with 64MB memory on board. Also in there is a PIV. To my left, a 1GHz Athlon system with a Matrox G400 and 256MB of memory. In emulation, the Amiga pounds the living snot out of the 1GHz system sometimes 10 times that of what it could do in emulation.
You get what you pay for, nuff said.
WOA2000 news : Comment 33 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Jer on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
Is this it??
I've been combing a bit for more info on the convention thing. But is this all for new Amiga information? So all there was was the os3.9 stuff, a few icq clips from fleecy and others, and some software/hardware news from some amiga companies.
I was hoping for more/bigger announcements. sorry but the other announcements were not big enough me. for me that is...
oh well....
jer
junk_mail1@mail.com
WOA2000 news : Comment 34 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Paul Qureshi on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Rik Sweeney):
50,000 sales isn't impossible. 3.5 sold around 25,000 aparently. I'm sure there
are 50,000 loyal Amiga users in the world, and OS4 is just an incentive to buy
3.9 now!
Amiga will never die.
WOA2000 news : Comment 35 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Jörg Frieden on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (David Scheibler):
Yes, Heretic II was running hardware-accelerated. The resoultion it was running
on was 640x480. In that resolution I got 41 FPS on a PPC604/180 in tutorial2, and 64 FPS in 320x240. Actually things will get a lot faster when the drivers
are finished, since I'm not using the second texture unit, and no command pipeline interface which will also speed things up considerably. The driver as presented on the show was the work of one and a half week of almost sleepless nights :-)
Best regards, Hans-Joerg.
WOA2000 news : Comment 36 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Frank Mariak on 09-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Hans-Jörg Frieden):
And you used a 143MHz Voodoo3 2000, not a 166MHz Voodoo 3000 even which should give about 10% higher acceleration performance .....
WOA2000 news : Comment 37 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Allsopp on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
This "so-called" amigaos3.9 should have been called AmigaOS3.2
H&P are doing nothing more than take this piss out of amiga users who
beleive in OS4. It's so obvious they (Amiga Inc. and H&P) are
announcing OS4 as being possible so all the gullable "believers" out
there will buy OS3.9.
I, for one, will not spend my hard-earned money on a
so-called UPGRADE that does nothing you can't do with a OS3.1
installation and a trip to Aminet....I challenge anyone to name one
thing in OS3.9 that you couldn't do in OS3.1 without patches (which
is all H&P are using)? And is that worth spending your money on?
Emails to "h&p_rip_you_off@thesnakepit.demon.co.uk" with your answers!
WOA2000 news : Comment 38 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Al K on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Paul Qureshi):
Well, it seems as we are not used to large numbers anymore. There were times
Amiga's were sold in the millions, now we are arguing 50,000 is to much to be
reached, sad enough this is true. Even if H&P sell 50,000 copies and do 4.0PPC,
IMHO there is only a chance to keep that number quite stable. I do not see
any way for further expansion of the AmigaOS market (I very much dislike
that 'classic' term). And as a serious SW developer they need to think 'bout
future chances.
Anyway, the OS itself was never the problem, as even 3.5 is _3_.x (not 4 or 5
as version number!!) which may show how advanced 3.1 was in 1992.
What we really lacked was.. hardware. How else can you explain that PCI hype?
ZorroIV anyone?!? Or PPC, what about 68080 and further?
Years ago i would have blamed C= for delivering something like 'AmigaDE'. They
should have built AAA, forced Moto to continue 680x0, deliver enhanced Zorro's,
etc.., that time is long gone.
Now anyone seems to realize that as MorphOS->PPC, AROS->x86, AmigaOS4.0(?)->PPC
including support for most commonly used PC HW (VooooDooohhh... :0)
And as I never expected anything less, AmigaInc. took the giant step, as is
support for x86 _and_ PPC and further more processors and platforms.
That is Amiga: Never do the obvious, there's always an Amiga way ;-)
Can't await counting Amiga users in millions again...
post scriptum:
Hey, what about an AmigaOS4.0-VPPPC inclusive..?
WOA2000 news : Comment 39 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by joh on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Roj):
That's the first truly insightful reasonable comment I've seen in a long time. Datatypes in combination with a standardized RTG and RTA and a fully mutithreaded gui is the way to go. In an ideal world the powers that be would take note of this comment and implement them in 4.0. I don't have the heart left to be that optimistic and am way too confused about the best upgrade option for my softbooted A3000 to spend the money. I don't have a clue which product would work best with my computer and if I did I would still be afraid that it wouldn't be supported more than two months before one company or another went under or changed their plans. At this point I will just sit on my cash(I really do want to upgrade) and wait things out till something starts to make sense. I really want to be impressed by AmigaDE. If I am that may be the way to do.
WOA2000 news : Comment 40 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Richie on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Kent Seaton):
Probably does beat the snot out of UAE. The last amiga
I used was a stock 3000. A wonderful computer. My memory
is getting cloudy now but UAE seems pretty similar to that.
Hell, I can, and do, browse the web with it.
And I don't need to buy a $1000 board with 128mb and a
processor made by THE COMPANY that pulled the plug on
the 680x0.
One day I'll have an amiga with a 200mhz 680x0, uae.
moto didn't support me.
Back to the thread, I don't feel a pressing need to buy
3.9 for all the above stated reasons, its not really
an upgrade to DOS. Also, I don't need to buy 4.0 for
PPC support becasue I use x86. So all that
PPC stuff would be useless.
Good luck to all of you.
Richie
WOA2000 news : Comment 41 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by D1 on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Richie):
I think what really needs to happen in order to make OS4.0 is to take the first step and purchase OS3.9, than make OS4.0 a little more attractive (such as an incentive, if you purchase OS3.9 you will recieve 20% off OS4.0).
Next step. is to make OS4.0 attractive from a features point of view!
Have classic OS4.0 work with other classic and new hardware from other vendors (such as Bplan, DCE, Elbox, metabox). In order to make a great OS, such as OS4.0 all vendors must work together with Amiga INC to make it successful.
Virtual Memory, Memory Protection, 68k emulation, all these items are long overdue and should of been implemented in OS3.5/OS3.9.... hopefully these items will be implemented in OS4.0
RTG, one of the most wanted items on the amiga classic computer, have a vendor create this item and incorparate it in OS4.0 and have it as a standard.
AHI, why the hell hasn't this been included in the OS, hopefully this will be included in OS4.0.
Vendors, Vendors, Vendors.... you will have Mediator, GREX, Predator, bplan, bring all the drivers together and include them in OS4.0 (Windows did it, why can't we?).
PPC will be one of the most important items for future growth of classic amiga, which one is it going to be MorphOS or WarpOS?, MorphOS looks great, WarpOS has the software... Can't we make MorphOS have WarpOS emulation? and include this as a part of OS4.0?
Most important to AMIGA INC. (PLEASE READ FLEECY) license out OS4.0 to a vendor that dosen't favour anyone. Have someone that is equal, someone that can bring all vendors together to work on OS4.0 and make it successful. Someone that can make peace between vendors instead of all this bitch fighting (ie. press releases about which product is better.. etc...) this has been unprofessional from my point of view.
I hope someone can agree with me on the above, coming from project management experience that works with many vendors I feel a project manager has to be appointed by Amiga INC. to sort things out before they can babble on and say next will be OS4.0.
WOA2000 news : Comment 42 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Franklin Cheney on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Richie):
Kan u sppelll EYEmacK? Doun thu sstreat...$7NEINtee9
innKwoodung moaniter...
WOA2000 news : Comment 43 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Nabs on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Daniel Allsopp):
Alright, I accept your challenge.
The complete ARexx interface which Workbench now has.
Go download that off Aminet and install it on your 3.1.
Oh whoops, you can't. Looks like you were talking rubbish.
The ARexx interface is an example of something that 3.5 can do, which 3.1 can't.
3.9 may yet have other features (besides included shareware) which were
previously not possible.
However, this whole debate about 4.0 is academic. There is no point in carrying
on with this line of OS, when the new AmigaDE will be so much superior. The
AmigaDE is being worked on regardless, whereas continuing with 3.9+ would take
additional resources for little gain.
Amiga Inc. could have just left us with our old systems to die quietly, and then
eventually be forced to buy an AmigaOne, or go Wintel. But they haven't. They
announced 3.9 (which was totally unexpected to everyone), which breathes some
more life into our machines. Enough to keep us going till the new systems become
usable. In addition, they came up with a way to give current Amiga guys access
to the new hardware, via the Eyetech AmigaOne solution.
Look on 3.9 as the closing of a chapter in the Amiga story, rather than the end
of the road. AmigaDE is the next phase.
AmigaDE will have everything everyone wants in an OS4.0, and more besides. RTG,
RTA, virtual memory, multithreading, a new gui, drivers for modern hardware,
support for modern software standards/formats and whatever else you may want. On
top of that, it's hardware-independant.
Calling for a PPC OS (which is what 4.0 would presumably be) is all well and
good, but what if Motorola decided in 2 years time (2002/3) not to continue with
the PowerPC series, like they did with 68k? We'd be in the same boat that we've
been stuck in for the last 8 years: Amigas which are tied to obsolete hardware,
and therefore un-upgradable. Then you could either stick with your 10-15 year
old Amiga, or move to the by-now flourishing AmigaDE. Doesn't make much sense,
does it?
If it were up to some people, we would still be using Workbench 1.3, because it
does its job. That may be true, but unless we move on, there's no progress. If
the dream of every Amigan is to see Amiga back at the top, or at least
successful again, then you have to realise that it isn't going to happen without
new technologies. Amiga has to make up for 8 years of non-development, and they
are doing that with AmigaDE.
We are using hardware from 1992, and there has to come a point where that either
dies, or becomes too slow to be useful. Yes, we can upgrade, but that too has
limits. It's time to move on, and stop expecting our by-now ancient (by modern
standards) Amigas to live forever, and be supported forever. It's not accepting
defeat or admitting that the Amiga isn't upto today, it's simply progress.
AmigaDE will still have features which we know and love, which give this OS its
feel (screens, datatypes, multitasking etc.), but will be ultra-modern, and make
Amiga successful again, and prepare us for the future (ie. new CPUs).
------------
If Commodore had one day released AmigaDE, we would probably accept it without a
peep. A CPU-independant OS is a natural evolution. So here is my solution to
everyones dilemma:
(Imaginary world where Commodore still runs Amiga)
1. (1992) OS3.1 - 68k-only
2. (1998) OS4.0 - evolves into PPC-compatible
3. (2001) OS5.0 - evolves into being compatible with any CPU, including PPC
So look on it this way: Amiga Inc. has simply jumped over stage 2, which is no
longer necessary to get to stage 3. They are doing this as a way of making up
for the lost time between 1992 and now.
We just have to accept that the OS skipped a generation, and AmigaDE may as well
be called AmigaOS 5.0.
I hope that sorts it all out for everyone (like, yeah right :) )
Nabs..
WOA2000 news : Comment 44 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by David Plunkett on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Nabs):
Well said "Nabs"
WOA2000 news : Comment 45 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by David Plunkett on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (David Plunkett):
Too quick with the send button.
I meant to add that I had suggested in a thread a few days ago that
maybe there should be a port of 3.9 (or maybe 4.0) to VP, rather than
PPC. This would give PPC and all the others.
I had no real practical reasons for suggesting this, and I doubt it's
feasible. The one thought I did have, that relates to Nabs'
comments, is that it would be a visible stepping stone to the DE.
I think that's what a lot of people have missed - the incremental
changes in OS design that could have taken us from those days to these
days. Coming in one leap makes some people feel cheated.
Regards
David
WOA2000 news : Comment 46 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by fleecy on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Emmanuel Lesueur):
To correct some of the rubbish flying around here from all the experts.
1. Members of the MorphOS team have seen the Amiga source code. That is all
that is required to allow for a full source review, done by technical laywers,
costing quite a few million dollars and taking months, perhaps running into
years.
2. 50,000 is the nbr of users required to provide the minimum valid market.
We would be pouring money down the drain otherwise. So would commercial developers and in the end, so would users, who would buy it and then whine
because it would obviously be too expensive for them, and obviously be our
fault that there was no content it for it. Amiga, both the company and its developers and not a charity. For those who have spent thousands of dollars
buying the latest equipment and games, TRULY supporting the Amiga, then I am sorry. For those who whine, and expect everything to be done for them at
minimum expense to them, then if you want a platform where you can
continue to whine, I suggest you finally start buying something.
This may sound hard and arrogant, but after having been to Cologne and seen
great companies trying to provide for this market, and having pathetic sales
and no support, it is time to call the community to account. If you want a
PPC OS Amiga, buy OS3.9.
We and the developers and the dealers have invested our lives in this community.
It's time for the community to invest in it, not those who truly do support it,
like the guys who bought 5 copies at Cologne because they want OS4, but the
whiners still on OS3.1 who complain that nothing supports their AGA 68k20.
If they come, we will build it - not the other way around.
End of story.
WOA2000 news : Comment 47 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Martin Baute on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
A collection of remarks...
> PPC will be one of the most important items for future growth of classic
> amiga...
Whoops, I think you intended to say "slowdown of the dying process", not "growth". Does _anybody_ here _honestly_ believe there is _any_ future
for the Classic OS/HW line? Who will buy it, aside from people already
using Amigas? Where do you see _growth_?
> which one is it going to be MorphOS or WarpOS?, MorphOS looks great, WarpOS
> has the software... Can't we make MorphOS have WarpOS emulation? and include
> this as a part of OS4.0?
Try making Ralph Schmidt doing WarpOS support... try moving Mount Everest. He´s
the guy who _made_ ppc.library, and he already made a firm statement that he
_won´t_ do WarpOS support. He´s pretty stubborn with this, as anybody who
had a look at the Phase 5 / H&P "kernel war" will probably agree.
And again, where do you see a future for MorphOS? Who will ever use it save some
long-time die-hard Amigians? _No_ company can survive for long in the Amiga
market as is.
> I just wish H&P realised that they're producing an operating system. At
> the moment they're distributing the modern equivalent of Fred Fish disks.
Which is about all they can do, given the fact that they are a company of three? four? full-time people...
WOA2000 news : Comment 48 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by fleecy on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (D1):
We have had lots of discussions with all the commercial interests in the Amiga
community, as well as development teams both inside and outside of the Amiga community.
We are ready to start AmigaOS4 PPC tomorrow if we get confirmed orders of 50,000 OS3.9 sales.
OS4 would be done quickly, to move the classic OS, or as much of it as is required to support commercial products and projects of the last year or two,
over to the PPC platform. The HAL specification would be made open, so that
DCE, Eyetech, Elbox etc would be able to provide the new short term hardware
for the AmigaOS4, whilst machines like the AmigaOne from bPlan would support
it in the long term. We may even port it to the Mac platform, to allow those poor souls to finally have access to a decent OS.
This would provide us with a modern, protected foundation for the further,
proper development of the AmigaOS itself, working closely with the AmigaDE.
OS5 would see the benefits of all the research and development being done on
the DE for imaging systems, universal device management, SHEEP etc.
As for all the politics, I informed all of those I spoke to that if OS4 happens,
then it will be done in a professional manner. No egos. No childish spats or
"I'm better than you are" stuff. We haven't time for that anymore.
Amiga Inc would manage the entire project and would have the final say on anything.
We see a lot of value in the remaining Amiga developers, and in the work that
we saw, including a very good demonstration by the MorphOS team, and by the
H&P team.
We just all need to see a show of commitment from the customers and users themselves, and then it will happen. (and if ppl want to complain, 50K is half the number we actually arrived at - Amiga Inc is doing its bit to make this
work!!!)
fleecy moss
CTO
Amiga Inc
WOA2000 news : Comment 49 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (Martin Baute):
>Whoops, I think you intended to say "slowdown of the dying process", >not "growth". Does _anybody_ here _honestly_ believe there is _any_ future
>for the Classic OS/HW line? Who will buy it, aside from people already
>using Amigas? Where do you see _growth_?
Eyetech/Escenda - predator
DCE - CS/B PPC
Elbox - Shark PPC
BPlan - PPC MB
Metabox - Amijoe
I dont see a slow down?, do you?, all will support classic OS too when there is a sufficient enough 68k emulation such as MorphOS
WOA2000 news : Comment 50 of 184ANN.lu
Posted by Phil on 10-Dec-2000 23:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Nabs):
Agree with you for the roadmap, but....
A lot off people have buy PPC cards, so it would be nice that
AmigaDE support these (i think is not supported by now).
By my case, i've a feeling to be screw ..... by these roadmap.
Phil
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