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[News] AROS can now be programmed!ANN.lu
Posted on 23-Oct-2001 07:07 GMT by Christian Kemp89 comments
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m0ns00n wrote: AROS can now be programmed! In the screenshots section, you can see False in action, and also Python, which is now being ported to AROS.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 1 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 23-Oct-2001 07:56 GMT
So, when will we be seeing a AROS SDK? ;-P
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 2 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 23-Oct-2001 08:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Samface):
Well, I for one would like to see the AROS team talking Sassenrath into making an AROS version of REBOL once AROS is capable enough. Would be great to host my REBOL desktop OS on...:-)
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 3 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 23-Oct-2001 09:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Lennart Fridén):
Lets just tidy up a Linux/68k Linux/PPC distro for the Amiga to cope with the new generation busboards, give it an Amiga-a-like window manager, shell and be done with it. If you want backwards compatability then UAE seems to be getting quite good!
If you dont agree with me, thats your right. Just tell me whats so great about the AROS direction vs MorphOS vs Linux vs AmigaOS4.x vs whatever.
I thought that AROS was just Amiga-a-like libraries for x-window/linux but Im obviously mistaken.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 4 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Dave):
You mean losing ALL backward compatability and run only new programs
once possible? That's bullshit...
AROS is an effort to rewrite the whole AmigaOS 3.1.
And about AmigaOS4 vs MorphOS vs AROS vs Linux...
First of all... MorphOS uses some AROS code for parts it's missing,
and the same goes for AROS. I'm sure that Amiga Inc will also use
AROS code for any parts they need...
I don't see linux competing with any of the aforementioned OSes... Can
you? AROS does run hosted under *NIX too (including linux) but this
is for development reasons.
Even Amithlon, that uses a striped linux kernel for the HW drivers,
doesn't really has anything practical to do with it... You can only
see AmigaOS running on it...
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 5 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Oct-2001 09:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>You mean losing ALL backward compatability and run only new programs
>once possible? That's bullshit...
*hackles rise*
Of course, /I forgot/ that UAE stops you from running any old programs. Silly me! Unlike of course AROS! Duuuuh!
Come on, on my latest tower system with Mediator/Voodoo I cannot run most of the old programs that I wanted to and take advantage of new displays. I resort to running UAE in a window and that is far from satisfactory. A TV card helps somewhat but limits me to old refresh rates and resolutions.
You state that Linux cannot compete with the OS you mention. Oh *come on* if you are going to say something like that please back it up with some facts, even some explanations however subjective!
I know why *I* dont like a whole load of the current linux /distributions/ on x86 but thats the beauty of GPL, what you dont like, modify, tailor and otherwise hack! As for the Linux kernel, thats a different matter. It has some technical limitations in my opinion but it urin8s on the AmigaOS from a great height now. Before you flame this, ask yourself why. The AmigaOS has gone from a leading desktop OS to something less powerful and more patched than a hand held OS. It cannot compete on the workstation OR server. It can *just* compete on the desktop and then it loses.
Face it, little evolution and no revolution means that the open source movement and Linux is incredibly tempting! Im not a troll, Ive just spent a lot of money with Power, VP and some with Elbox on Amiga products. Ive just come to the conclusion that there *IS* a better way and that better way is to help improve the 68k and PPC distros of Linux on the Amiga based hardware.
I can still support Amiga themselves by running DE on my Linux and Windows boxen!
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 6 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
You didn't get my point...
No, linux does NOT compete with Amigaos flavours... Not because it's
not better, but because it's on a different market (mainly x86).
About compatability... Yes, if you want to run old programs run UAE...
Running UAE for everything KILLS the Amiga...
Ask yourself a question... Can DOS programs be run on Win 2k or XP?
NO. BIG NO. Even some 9x programs don't run... So why do some people
consider losing some backwards compatability a great loss?
And no... AROS doesn't allow you to use any old programs with no
recompile.
Guys, if you want an Amiga better use AmigaOS (maybe with a few
emulators on it). If you want Linux or another os, buy a PC...
Ok, I do run linux on my Amiga sometimes but I don't complain
if this and that doesn't work... I have this machine to run AmigaOS
after all!
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 7 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Penguin hunting??? on 23-Oct-2001 10:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
Okay, you know why you don't like certain x86 distributions of Linux, and that's the beauty of GPL: one can hack and slash until one has something one likes. Fair enough.
Others of us would actually like to be *using our computers* during the time you're (a) learning how to hack and slash the penguin, and (b) then hacking and slashing the penguin. I mean, if one obtains a penguin, one might actually want a penguin and not a puffin, or worse yet, a walrus.
At my work, the two Linux-philes prevailed over us to by x86 machines and run Linux on them. However, because there was a video card issue (that no one ever "figured out", they just "hacked and slashed" around it), two machines sat around neglected for months before one of them finally deigned to come down from their lofty heights. My boss finally gave up trying to get it to work and is now running Windows 2000.
Imagine all the productivity one could have gotten from that machine, had he simlpy gone with Windows 2000 from the start. And if I'd had my way and gotten a Mac G4... I'd be as productive at work as I now am at home.
But since I can't lose time hacking away, I'm obviously at a disadvantage.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 8 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 23-Oct-2001 10:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
> First of all... MorphOS uses some AROS code for parts it's missing,
> and the same goes for AROS.
That's not exactly true. Whilst it's true that MorphOS uses AROS code, it's not true that AROS uses MorphOS code. AROS just gets some of its code debugged this way, but nothing else.
Fabio Alemagna
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 9 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 23-Oct-2001 11:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Dave):
Considering that AROS can boot and run natively on x86 computers now, I don't see how you can call it an amiga-a-like library for x windows.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 10 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 23-Oct-2001 12:16 GMT
Fellas, fellas! If there's yet another OS not half as blotted as Wirus that runs on x86 I'm happy. If it's useful and not a toy then I'm even happier. The AROS team wants to do it so let them. Just for fun, remember?
If you're a critic ask yourself this: what have YOU done lately?
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 11 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 23-Oct-2001 12:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Dave):
"Lets just tidy up a Linux/68k Linux/PPC distro for the Amiga to cope with the new generation busboards, give it an Amiga-a-like window manager, shell and be done with it. If you want backwards compatability then UAE seems to be getting quite good!"
Nonononononono! Never would I want such an OS! I mean, here's a couple of examples:
Problem1: Something's wrong with my system, it doesn't boot.
Solution: Comment out everything in s:startup-sequence, see if it boots without errors. Then try adding one by one of the lines in the startup-sequence and see what's causing the failure.
Summary: In just a few minutes you've located exactly what's causing the system to fail while booting. Try that using Linux/Windows/MacOS!!!
Problem2: One of my applications crashes or doesn't run at all.
Solution: Get SnoopDOS from Aminet, it will tell you exactly what causing the application to fail.
Summary: Simply another great feature that I've never seen on any other OS or platform. Let's face it, the AmigaOS is one of the most effective and easy to maintain operating system in the world!
"an Amiga-a-like window manager"... *shaking my head in disbelief*
I'm telling you, it's so much more than just good looks!
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 12 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Oct-2001 12:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Samface):
Samface - you are talking about things of which you obviously have zero knowledge, I'm afraid.
Your point 1 is p!ss easy on Unix.
Your point 2 is just plain WRONG.
SnoopDOS will not tell you why your program crashed. Sure, it'll tell you that it could not find a particular resource (i.e. did not load), but not why it CRASHES. Unless you know how to get SnoopDOS to report writes to memory not owned by the process, or reads from uninitialised pointers, or writes out of bounds in arrays, or....?
Can you tell me how to use SnoopDOS to stop GURUs? How to get SnoopDOS to stop my machine from crashing when a particular program drags the system down?
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 13 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Oct-2001 12:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Penguin hunting???):
*sigh*
I would not be learning, I know how to use it, modify and write drivers and it is with the intent of ending up with a system that actually has applications for it ( which albiet need a recompile and some porting ) that I would embark on this exercise.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 14 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Oct-2001 12:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Maily x86? Yes, true. But where there is source there is hope - the point is it IS a competitor because it DOES run now on our platform. It needs some work for catchup but probably less than AmigaOS.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 15 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Oct-2001 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Graham):
Dear oh dear. Quote correctly please:
"I thought that AROS was just Amiga-a-like libraries for x-window/linux but Im obviously mistaken."
See the latter part of the sentence? Nuff said.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 16 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 23-Oct-2001 12:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Lennart Fridén):
So its just for fun? Shame.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 17 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 23-Oct-2001 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
That's the way Linux started and look how many users it got now. No, I'm not implying that AROS will become a new Linux, I just say that you can achieve great things even without being dead serious about it.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 18 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 23-Oct-2001 13:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Anonymous):
"Your point 1 is p!ss easy on Unix."
Dave suggested making an XWindows manager for *Linux* which I know for a fact is NOT that easy to maintain. I intentionally never mentioned Unix because I don't know anything about it.
"Your point 2 is just plain WRONG."
Sorry, I meant to say that SnoopDOS will tell you what's causing the failure, meaning it will tell you wich files it's reading (or trying to read) at crash time. 99% of the times (speaking out of experience) that file is the one causing the application to fail. (due to wrong or missing library most of the times)
Any way, is there anyone to disagree with me on the point where Amiga is *one of* the easiest and most efficient operating systems to maintian in the world? Do we really want to replace that and run it as a window manager ontop of another OS? I sure as hell don't...
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 19 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 23-Oct-2001 13:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Samface):
The quote was:
> give it an Amiga-a-like window manager
Which is *not* hard to maintain. In fact IIRC there is a WM for X available on Aminet somewhere that allows you to have an Amiga look and feel. About seven years ago I wrote a shell for AIX that had the Amiga look and feel and even supported most of the AmigaDOS command set. Im sure Ill find the source on a floppy disk somewhere if I look hard enough!
Dont forget that a WM is different from an X Server, which is what I suspect you are getting at.
Theoretically one could extend IXEMUL and use/writenew X-Server for Amiga and easily port most "Linux" based applications. I read a rumour once that the creators of the Amiga based Linux distro started there and decided that the Linux route was simpler and better supported.
I also read somewhere ( probably AmigaActive ) that one of the software houses still supporting Amiga has developed a screen select function that acts like the screen select functionality on for example CDE or KDE ( and most window managers that support the gadgets needed ). The "preview" slammed the idea which leads me to believe that the writer was a total pillock. I would LOVE that functionality on the Amiga.
Lets face facts, ( and an earlier arguer in two succesive posts argued FOR backwards compatibility being desireable and also against it !! ) most "older" applications dont run on the workbench window. Most dont work well with being promoted and the addition of GFX cards has exposed problems with earlier "hacks" on certain art packages ( lets not go there ).
If we picked out an "Amiga Community" distribution of Linux as a subset of our favourite parts of the distributions out there and finished off some of the drivers to support our hardware and made it available on x86,68k and PPC would we not be better off?
If not, why not. Lets have reasons not vitriol.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 20 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 14:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Dave):
I didn't actually mean that.... What I meant is that OS programs and
actually all new programs should run. It's not neccessary to have all
old programs run (old games, hw bangers etc).
Sorry, I didn't crarify this enough
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 21 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 23-Oct-2001 14:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Samface):
For once, I have to agree with you, Samface, AmigaOS *is* the easiest to maintain. (and fastest, ost intuitive, ...).
AROS continues (copies) this tradition. AROS isn't *just* an x86 AmigaOS, it's a PORTABLE AmigaOS. It's binary compatible on Amiga hardware.
Now imagine Amithlon merged with AROS.
Bleep
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 22 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Panties on 23-Oct-2001 15:07 GMT
All of you assholes are just vultures plucking at the Amiga carcass. AROS is a gigantic steaming pile of shit. MorphOS is a gigantic steaming pile of shit with an idiot (Hi Ralph!) at the mast. Amiga Inc. are a bunch of damned morons who don't give a shit about existing Amiga users, they only want the name, and the furvor behind it. If anyone truly gave a rat about the Amiga, here's what they would have done:
a) Integrate the custom chipset onto one IC for backwards compatibility.
b) Manufacture ATX mainboards with 0x0 and PPC on board. No legacy emulation of code, full speed ahead captain. Make sure all boards have PCI, AGP, and at least 2 SDRAM slots. Doesn't this sound a bit like Boxer? Whoever wanted to do that was on the right track, it's just too damn bad nobody wanted to help with it, or support it.
c) Standardize an API for video and sound.
d) Work on migrating large portions of the Amiga OS into PPC code, if anyone even has the source code anymore.
That's pretty much it. If people need "features" like memory protection, or a journaling file system, it can be added later, or released as a seperate OS revision. All this time and money being poured into a glorified java-a-like operating system with UAE under it for legacy code is pie in the sky. Everyone seems to think there was something wrong with the old Amiga OS. There wasn't. It was modern, easy to program, fun, easy to use, and pretty damn modular. So what are we going to get? In the end, probably nothing, and the Amiga will fade away as one of the computing's pecularities, because people lost their vision, or had it hijacked by idiots.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 23 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 15:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Panties):
And Panties is a hell of an asshole with no brain in his head:))) You
forgot to mention that:)
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 24 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 15:33 GMT
if you really did have a brain, you would know that PPC AND 68k
together are a NIGHTMARE. Do you think that the G2s we've been
using are really that slow, with a megabyte of l2 cache and the
whole OS running on this CPU??
Don't that bring back 2 terms in your mind?
That's right my Friend...
Cache Incoherence... (that's why there's no l2 cache)
and that leads to:
Cache flushes (context switches). You know, the performance of the
CPUs we've been using is about 60% of the full...
If you don't know what these mean, then you never did have a mixed
cpu Amiga or never seen one... Ever tried to code for it?
Have you ever felt the need to kill your Amiga becauce the loading
proccess slows down the gameplay of your favourite game?
You know it's much slower on the current PPC cards due to...context
switches...
Fun huh?
And do you know how much money does it need to prepare a custom chip?
Don't ask... (several millions...)...
You know, logic chips aren't that fast to emulate the whole Amiga
chipset... If you want fast enough, you pay.... the hell.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 25 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by ex-Amigan on 23-Oct-2001 15:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Panties):
> If anyone truly gave a rat about the Amiga,
> here's what they would have done:
...
> c) Standardize an API for video and sound.
> d) Work on migrating large portions of the
> Amiga OS into PPC code, if anyone even has
> the source code anymore.
I don't know I can agree with the first two. (I just don't know.) But... isn't Amiga Inc. working on c and d?
> Everyone seems to think there was
> something wrong with the old Amiga OS.
> There wasn't.
Yes, there was. It had some serious defects from an OS point of view: the lack of Memory Protection being the worst.
> It was modern, easy to program, fun,
> easy to use, and pretty damn modular.
I agree completely. I loved the machine. I hope Amiga carries through with OS 4.0, 4.2, and 5.0. If they do, I'll support it.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 26 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 16:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (ex-Amigan):
c) The Cybergraphx API (used in both CGX and P96) is a standard.
Ahi is the standard for audio. Warp3D is the standard for 3D.
In OS4 terms these are:
AmiRTG: consists of:
Ami2D (P96 PPC, compatible with the CGX apis)
Ami3D (Warp3d 5.0)
AmiRTA (new, but I suppose it will ne a derivative for AHI)
MorphOS uses
CGX5, AHIPPC, MUIPPC for GUI, Rave 3D and emulated Warp3D
(under the warpos emulator)
C... Done.
d) Amiga Inc., H&P and others are currently doing that...
The MorphOS team has almost finished doing that...
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 27 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Still Penguin hunting! on 23-Oct-2001 16:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Anonymous):
quote: "I would not be learning, I know how to use it, modify and write drivers and it is with the intent of ending up with a system that actually has applications for it ( which albiet need a recompile and some porting ) that I would embark on this exercise."
Great, more power to you! BUT you don't work in my office, and even if you did, I doubt they would have hired you to do nothing but solve computer systems a la Jimmy Farrell on SNL.
Lots of us DO have to learn how to use it and modify it in order to make it useful. Thanks to Linux' bizarre structure, the result is a huge waste of time figuring it out.
Example: it's been nearly a year, and not even the Linux gurus have figured out why the kernel won't recognize my CD burner on the bus. They've simply put it out of their minds and moved on to other things. These were the same guys who advocated we do Linux because the GPL meant we could modify it. Meanwhile, I use my iBook to copy my data over the Net, and burn it onto backup CDs at home.
I loved the Linux idea... until I actually had to use it. In retrospect, all the troubles we've had make sense: what computer experts think is intuitive and easy-to-use is mind-bogglingly bizarre to ordinary folks who are trying to use the computer to get something done. And I'm not even all that ordinary.
I gladly concede that Linux is a great OS, according to everything I ever learned in my OS class a decade ago. It sure beats Windows for all sorts of practical things, too.
But as long as people advocate it is better and the first reason they cite is effectively its "open-source" nature, it is simply not ready for ordinary computer users.
When people in the Linux world finally and validly cite some *other* reason as the FIRST reason to use Linux, then, and only then, will it be ready for the rest of us.
That applies to APUS Linux just as strongly.
Thus, I am all for AROS, or any other alternative, that is actually straightforward to USE.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 28 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Mad Dr. Z on 23-Oct-2001 17:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Panties):
a) that is expensive
b) 680x0 cheaps are not a option for they are slow more ways than mhz. Emulation of the 680x0 chip is really the best option. If you wan't to play old games on a new miggy, then use UAE.
c) I thought that what was happening. Eitherway. It needs to be rewritten. AFAIK AOS 3.1 and under was written in '000 ASM. '000 ASM is not compatipatible with PPC ASM AFAIK.
AOS is pretty good, but it has a few drawbacks.
1- not hardware independent
2- no Java
3- needs to run on new processors
4- support of USB and PCI integrated
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 29 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 23-Oct-2001 18:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Mad Dr. Z):
MorphOS is what you say, right now, and AmigaOS 4.2 will be that too.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 30 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Ralph Schmidt on 23-Oct-2001 19:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
"will" sounds so "real":-))
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 31 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 23-Oct-2001 19:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Still Penguin hunting!):
> I loved the Linux idea... until I actually had to use it. In retrospect, all
> the troubles we've had make sense: what computer experts think is intuitive
> and easy-to-use is mind-bogglingly bizarre to ordinary folks who are trying
> to use the computer to get something done. And I'm not even all that
> ordinary.
Someone on Slashdot summed this up pretty well, I think: the people behind Linux are mostly programmers, and programmers who are on their own mostly just scratch where it itches them.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 32 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by kjetil on 23-Oct-2001 21:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Still Penguin hunting!):
(TO YOU)
Like to pint out this...
My friend when you by a server you most attend to
compatibility issues before you go and by the server.
The same way when you go and by PC hardware for you Amiga,
Is there any drivers for the hardware you are buying?
if not don't bay it.
When you bay hardware you are best not baying the
newest as new drivers or Os's are not bug free.
I recommend finding out what company's support you're os and how don't
bay only hardware that works for the less supported system you are going
to have on you're P.C.
If you are not a Developer, Administrator or
hacker of neater Linux or Aros may not be for you, at lest for the moment.
(TO ALL)
Point 1.
Amiga OS 2.0 is not Unix just because it can run X-windows and GGC on it,
this is optional.
Point 2.
There is no way redesigned system can be 100% backword compatible with new systems,
with out some kind of emulators.
Even programs programed for Kickstart 1.2 don't allways work on Kickstart 1.3.
Programs made for library version 1.1 don't allways work on library version 1.2
AROS is open source this is to make programs portable from A*OS to A*OS.
Just like linux. To compile programs some times need Lot of knowledge some times it don't.
This is not for all,
feature more ported programs can be started on any system they are ported to. 8-)
so in a way AROS is for all even the people how don't get it.
(Amiga OS is like Closed windows, AROS is like open linux)
Point 3.
Benefits of Python ported to AROS is it makes it easier to port to Amiga OS 3.1 68k.
And when AROS it self, is ported to you're processor, then you do not need to ported,
you just hit the compile button.
Point 4.
It you don't know what AROS is do not take down on it please at lest check AROS news,
<A HREF="http://www.aros.org"> AROS </A>
And it you relay like to know what it is download it, it is free.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 33 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 24-Oct-2001 06:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Panties):
"b) Manufacture ATX mainboards with 0x0"
Uhhmmm...a HEX 0 CPU? Never heard of it. Where can I obtain information of this HEX 0 processor of yours? :-)
"That's pretty much it. If people need "features" like memory protection, or a journaling file system, it can be added later, or released as a seperate OS revision."
It's quite obvious that you have little or no programming skills and it's also obvious that you don't know a thing about how an operating system is designed.
"Everyone seems to think there was something wrong with the old Amiga OS. There wasn't. It was modern, easy to program, fun, easy to use, and pretty damn modular."
Yes, it _was_ al of that.
"So what are we going to get? In the end, probably nothing, and the Amiga will fade away as one of the computing's pecularities, because people lost their vision, or had it hijacked by idiots"
...which doesn't mean that _YOU_ have to act like one. Do something constructive or shut up.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 34 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 24-Oct-2001 06:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (Ralph Schmidt):
Oh no, Ralph, not this thread as well. Back into your cage, you've got code to write...:-)
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 35 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 24-Oct-2001 06:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Still Penguin hunting!):
Much of what you say I agree with. But, I already have a job that is not about system building but doing real work and Linux plays heavily into it.
I would not advocate Linux merely because it is Open Source, but because of all the OS available on our hardware it stands the best chance of:
1) continuing to be supported as a development platform
2) being a maintainable codebase not owned by an individual company ( the tits up syndrome we have suffered with )
3) having applications available for it.
4) having a migration path.
Sure, GG plus an X-Server Unix does not make HOWEVER that was not my point. To tap into the rich source based application distributions it gives you a head start. An example would be a project management tool, how many of those are on the Amiga?
Having developed on AmigaOS, DE, Unix, S/390, Win32, OS/2, EPOC, PalmOS, Java blah blah blah I know what I like from each of them and how they work at a low level.
Dont get me wrong, Im not one of those "Open Source is good because its free" bigots ( in fact I wrote an article in the Amiga press that decried these misguided individuals ) but the marketplace continues to shrink at a rapid pace and STILL we are at the mercy of companies that are a whiff away from bankruptcy and can only use hardware supported by the whim of the proprietary solutions ( this includes Elbox, what used to be PhaseV etc. ).
I do not like bloatware Linux distributions. In fact I think the whole threading support in Linux sucks. But, its a good start and it is relatively easy to cut out the bloat and end up with a usable base, tight and compact, that we can extend for our own benefit and still retain compatibility with the main Unix based application portfolio.
Sure, I find AmigaOS more user friendly in some(most) respects on a "personal" computing level. But a simplification of the user experience would work wonders.
It is not enough to say that AmigaOS based applications are easier to maintain - it is easier for those of us that have spent the majority of our time familiarising ourselves with Amiga. Its just a viewpoint.
When you weigh up the pros and cons you may not agree with my choice, but its *my* choice. This may sound suspiciously like the Collas choice to a lot of you but wake up and smell the coffee - AmigaOS needs a complete rewrite!
PS: No disrespect to AROS - this is distinctly offtopic and should not be seen to detract from AROS.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 36 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 24-Oct-2001 07:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Dave):
"This may sound suspiciously like the Collas choice to a lot of you but wake up and smell the coffee - AmigaOS needs a complete rewrite!"
You can say that again!
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 37 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 24-Oct-2001 08:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Lennart Fridén):
This may sound suspiciously like the Collas choice to a lot of you but wake up and smell the coffee - AmigaOS needs a complete rewrite!
Happy to oblige!
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 38 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 24-Oct-2001 10:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Lennart Fridén):
Yes, definetly. And, that's exactly what Amiga inc (& co) will do. To be even more specific, they'll have too! How else could the OS be 64-bit and have MP? It's impossible without a complete rewrite. Can't you all see that Amiga inc is doing exactly what we all want, exactly the way we all want them to do it? Yes, I'm not blind. It's not an easy task and it's going to cost them alot of time and money. Hell, I'm not even sure if they'll ever succeed. My point is, they're seriously giving their best shot at it and since what they're doing is what we all want, is there any reason for not supporting what they're trying to accomplish?
Yeah, I know. We can't trust a company changing plans and breaking their timeframes over and over again. Here's my reply to that:
1. Changing plans? No, they didn't change any of their original plans, they just added plans to them. "Didn't they plan to make AmigaDE a standalone OS?" Yes, and they still do. AmigaDE will be a standalone OS when merged with the AmigaOS into AmigaOS5. "Dindn't they say that they would never make a PPC version of the classic AmigaOS?" At the time when those questions were asked no plans regarding the classic AmigaOS were made at all. They simply didn't know yet. I remember a certain petition made at Amigart where people signed up because they wanted a PPC version of the classic AmigaOS, it was signed by thousands. I see Amiga inc trying to not repeat the mistakes of Amiga's former owners, I see they are listening to the community.
2. Breaking timeframes... *sigh* Taken from the timeline section of Eyetechs AmigaOne pages:
"The whole AmigaOne-1200 project is suddenly much bigger and very much better as a result. The small downside however is that during the several weeks leading up to the OS4.x announcement (at St Louis at the beginning of April) and more particularly since then, we and Amiga Inc have had to redirect much of our efforts to carefully defining, planning and allocating tasks and responsibilities to OS4.0 development and integration with the A1-1200. The extra work involved has also, inevitably, meant that timeframes have slipped."
Let's put it like this: Not even the great M$ release all their products in time as planned. Just look at their X-Box...
Oh, one more thing. When Amiga inc tells us everything about what's happening, people complain about them telling us too much. Telling the customers too much about what's going on leads to confusion, plans and timeframes especially. Has anyone figured out why Amiga inc got so quite all of a sudden yet?
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 39 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 24-Oct-2001 10:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Samface):
Sam, no one is arguing with you on that front. If Amiga come up with the goods and come up with a decent /32/bit operating system revision then Ill be the first to applaud/support it. However, there is an extreme risk that they wont and a certainty that they will need application support that at first will not need to take advantage of the "Amiga unique" features.
I would even suspect that it might end up like Monterey and have /32/ bit modules and /64/ bit modules allowing you to run in both modes depending on what you are doing. Makes C++ mangled names in shared objects a pain!
I applaud your pro Amiga.com statements and I think they are doing the right thing (TM) and have in the main the right people but the userbase needs a plan b, and proprietary OS, OS "emulation" et al does not seem to be an effective plan b.
A good plan b might be to maintain all the unix porting utilities on the latest revision of the OS as well as improve the stuff available for DE.
Another good plan b would be to maintain the Linux distributions for 68k and PPC, make them more user friendly and ensure that any new applications for the Amiga that can run /native/ can be compiled for Linux, AmigaOS, AmigaDE or whatever. This does mean sacrificing some Amiga native capabilities ( not much to be honest these days ).
The best plan b is to do both.
Thus, if Amiga "fails" or "falters" with AmigaOS we can jump on the "Linux" based distro /relatively/ painlessly and still support them through DE.
If it succeeds we can complete the port of "Linux" based killer apps onto the AmigaOS and /enhance/ them to take advantage of Amiga specific features.
No one has yet answered my question about what from a technical standpoint is so superior about AmigaOS? What does it have that we would need to add to Linux, or remove or rewrite? What does it have that Linux could never have?
Please include the whys when you enlighten us.
I would rather a "Linux" based escape route than any of the current alternative escape routes.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 40 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 24-Oct-2001 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Dave):
I don't see any alternative or "plan b" at all I'm afraid. The Amiga market wouldn't survive another failure of Amiga inc, not even MorphOS. I think the efforts of Amiga inc is our last chance. A compromise just wouldn't be Amiga anymore.
If they fail, I'll probably join the Linux community or something and get the work I need to do on my computer done with, no more. I will probably never be as dedicated to one single platform or OS again. Without the AmigaOS, computing simply wouldn't be fun anymore.
Long live the Amiga. :-)
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 41 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 24-Oct-2001 11:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Dave):
***** OT/OTT RANT ALERT¨*****
To be honest, I find the Amiga way more important than the Amiga HW/SW.
*Drum roll*
I can understand the way AmigaOS works. One can understand the way Linux/BSD/etc works. You might have to dig a bit, but it's possible.
No-one can understand how or why Windows work. And even if you could in theory there's no real way to obtain information of the ins and outs of Windows without working for M$ (and even then I'd say you're probably mostly guessing...:-))
I like heavily optimized code (read asm) and thus I can enjoy a project such as www.menuetos.org since I share a great deal of values with the author.
I like cross-platform compability and thus I like the idea of Java (but seldom its implementation) and of course REBOL. Furthermore I like the ideas of TAOs Elate and BSDs emulation system. Yes, you heard the word "emulation". It's not necessarily a Bad Thing(tm).
I like the combination of a powerful CLI and a neat GUI. Therefore I like AmigaOS. Linux and MacOS X looks promising too. Windows doesn't.
If you're getting scared when seeing
---
#include <stdio.h>
main()
{
printf("Only Amiga makes it possible!\n");
}
---
then you're probably Joe User. It's ok, you can install REBOL on Windows or MacOS and write it like this:
---
print "Only Amiga makes it possible!"
---
The point is that you might not be a kernel hacker but if you learn a programming language, any language (well, ok, maybe not Malbolge or Sartre) you'll gain more control over your computer than if you hadn't. And with control comes power. Power to do things the Amiga way. Once you do this, the underlying OS becomes less significant.
What I'm trying to say is that IF you chose to follow Amiga Inc. and shit happens make sure that you keep the Amiga spirit when you migrate to another platform. The same goes for those of you that chose to do so now or already have migrated.
Oh, hell. I'll just shut up and go back to study electronics now...:-)
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 42 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 24-Oct-2001 11:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Samface):
"Without the AmigaOS, computing simply wouldn't be fun anymore."
That's only true if you let it be true.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 43 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 24-Oct-2001 11:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Lennart Fridén):
Well said.
Except....
int main( void )
{
cout << "Only Amiga makes it possible, C++ makes it ugly!" << endl;
return 0;
}
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 44 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 24-Oct-2001 12:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Lennart Fridén):
Having just started to play with REBOL properly Im beginning to think if it less as a language and more of a computing platform. I know at the basic level its no better/worse than a bunch of standard libraries for doing complex things in a quick and simple way but the environment one could build on such technology! Yummy!
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 45 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 24-Oct-2001 12:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Dave):
I agree. REBOL is most definitely a major plan b (plan a also for that matter) for me...:-)
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 46 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 12:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Samface):
>Let's put it like this: Not even the great M$ release all their products in >time as planned. Just look at their X-Box...
I know, it's been delayed by a whole week, what a complete disgrace and failure of planning.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 47 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 12:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (Samface):
>Has anyone figured out why Amiga inc got so quite all of a sudden yet?
This close to the release date they shouldn't be quiet at all, they should be ramping up the hype and publicity. That's what any company which is about to release a big product does.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 48 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 24-Oct-2001 12:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Lennart Fridén):
Sorry Lennart, but I'm not a programmer and I probably never will be. All I can do is make my desktop look like the AmigaOS or run it through UAE, but that will never be like the real thing. All I ever wanted was the simplicity, ease of use, compatibility and expandibility within the AmigaOS, which no other OS has or will ever have for that matter. When was the last time you *manually* installed an application on Linux/Windows/MacOS? You see, Linux is far too complicated for a non-programmer to install anything without a properly working package manager and then a specific configuring application wich depends on bla,bla "libs and bins", Windows requires a whole installation program that needs to be installed before it can start installing the application itself, the same thing goes for MacOS but make sure you have the latest version of BinHex before you try anything. The ease of use within AmigaOS is unique and would be dropped if we made it run within another OS. Without it, computing will no longer be fun anymore, period.
A modern version of the AmigaOS is what I want and it won't be made through making it into some window manager ontop of Linux.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 49 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 12:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Dave):
>cout << "Only Amiga makes it possible, C++ makes it ugly!" << endl;
It's a lot less ugly than C style global functions.
AROS can now be programmed! : Comment 50 of 89ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 12:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Samface):
>A modern version of the AmigaOS is what I want and it won't be made through >making it into some window manager ontop of Linux.
For once I agree with you Samface.
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