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[News] AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10.ANN.lu
Posted on 24-Oct-2001 10:17 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä54 comments
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Haage & Partner announce: "Sales of AmigaOS XL started on Thursday, the 18.10. The delivery of the pre-orders will last until the end of the week. Thank you very much for your understanding. Last weekend the new version was introduced and sold at Pianeta 2001 in Empoli (Italy)."
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 1 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 24-Oct-2001 11:27 GMT
Now if it only ran on this Id be happy!
http://www.computerworld.com/storyba/0,4125,NAV47_STO65006,00.html
( just kidding I ordered a copy from VP - that hopefully they will ship soon! )
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 2 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Loki on 24-Oct-2001 14:50 GMT
AmigaOS XL ---- THE FUTURE OF AMIGA!!!!
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 3 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 24-Oct-2001 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (Loki):
AmigaOS XL - The death of all commercial Amiga development, and HW
development. The death of the Amiga... Now more and more people will
screw their plans for getting an AmigaONE or Pegasos and go this way..
If this thing stops enough people from buying Amiga HW, overpriced or
not, and PC ports, good or not, then... bye bye Amiga...
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 4 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Oct-2001 16:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I may be biased, but I find that a statement of towering arrogance and disrespect for the buying public.
So, what you are saying is that Amiga users must buy expensive and crap hardware followed by expensive and crap software in order to "save the Amiga" right?
(I'm not saying that all Amiga hardware or software is crap, buy you are saying it doesn't matter)
What a wonderful idea! Where do I sign up?
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 5 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Andrew Deacon on 24-Oct-2001 16:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Bill Hoggett):
I know your Amithlons biggest advocate, but calling A1/Pegasus
crap before there released is a bit out of order Bill.
I will certainly buy a A1 , ATM Amithlon is useless to me since I haven't
got a PC.
I don't expect tons of new software on the A1 but it will make ALL the software
I do run work a lot faster ,open a new world of expansions and improve the OS
somewhat.
AMithlon sounds like great 68k emulation , but it's got a deadend OS and I
predict no new software, except for curiosity x86 stuff.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 6 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 17:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>AmigaOS XL - The death of all commercial Amiga development, and HW
>development. The death of the Amiga... Now more and more people will
>screw their plans for getting an AmigaONE or Pegasos and go this way..
>If this thing stops enough people from buying Amiga HW, overpriced or
>not, and PC ports, good or not, then... bye bye Amiga...
You should direct your comments towards Amiga Inc and MorphOS for deciding to target their products at nobody else but a shrinking market, thereby offering zero chance of growth, new software or hardware development. It isn't AmigaOS-XL that will kill off the Amiga, but Amiga Inc's & MorphOS's ridiculous plans.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 7 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 17:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Bill Hoggett):
>So, what you are saying is that Amiga users must buy expensive and crap >hardware followed by expensive and crap software in order to "save the Amiga" >right?
>
>(I'm not saying that all Amiga hardware or software is crap, buy you are >saying it doesn't matter)
I am sure BPlan's and Eyetech's hardware will be technically competant, but on the software side you are absolutely right. Those who advocate a PPC solution state their main reason as "so people will be forced to use Amiga applications and not better quality Windows ones". But, not only will we be forced to use sub-standard applications, there is also no chance of them improving - firstly, because there is very little application development going on anyway (and the new PPC machines are unlikely to change this situation), and secondly because there is no competition against Windows apps to encourage Amiga apps to improve.
If we remember back to the end-of-Commdore days back in 93/94 we can see that after years of competition and pressure, together with the improving AmigaOS, Amiga serious apps were roaring away, for 1993 standards we had good quality applications, and that would never have happened if it weren't for competition. A more recent example of this frightening phenomena (to some, anyway) known as competition is the rate at which Linux applications have come bouncing along - okay, they're still not up to Windows - but they have been advancing fast in recent years.
Of course, now it's much different, there is no longer an installed Amiga userbase of several million, custom hardware is no longer the way to go - computer enthusiasts (the market Amiga should be aiming at) want to run all their systems on one piece of kit.
For developers to return (even non-profit developers) there needs to be a growth in the userbase (something that can't happen if your target market is within), and even then it will take several years for developers to learn how to use the OS effectively.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 8 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Oct-2001 17:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Bill Hoggett):
Bill, I am fed up to see you everywhere with your Amithlon / XL propaganda.
Going on the AmigaOne mailing list to speak about Amithlon is what I call arrogance and disrespect. Thanks to you a lot of money will leave the Amiga market for the PC market. The PC market won't use this money for Amiga projects.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 9 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 17:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
I remember all the same predictions of doom when UAE came out. The world is still here. But before blaming H&P, you should blame Amiga Inc and MorphOS for living in the 90s and offering inadequate solutions.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 10 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 24-Oct-2001 18:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (zootzoot):
UAE did some damage to Amiga. Amithlon will be worse.
MorphOS is up to date technology, AmigaDE is upcoming technology so I don't see your point.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 11 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 24-Oct-2001 18:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
> If this thing stops enough people from buying Amiga HW, overpriced or
> not, and PC ports, good or not, then... bye bye Amiga...
Autsch!!! If more people are thinking like this guy, AMIGA and Pegasos will be sinking. I don't need overpriced hardware and I don't need bad PC ports.
If AmigaONE/AmigaOS 4.0 and/or Pegasos/MorphOS are not able to compete, it's their own fault and has nothing to do with AmigaOS XL. Once I was told that AmigaONE will be available this summer and that Pegasos will be available this autumn. They both aren't available today. I buy a product which is available!
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 12 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 24-Oct-2001 18:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Andrew Deacon):
> I don't expect tons of new software on the A1 but it will make ALL the
> software I do run work a lot faster ,open a new world of expansions...
This is for Amithlon, too. And only the future will tell which solution will have more expansions and will work faster. And today I really don't know how an AmigaONE will look like or how expensive it will be....
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 13 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 24-Oct-2001 18:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Anonymous):
Anonymous ( a nice name for someone who has to say nothing ), what are you speaking about? Bill is speaking about products which are available. People are able to buy those things. Show me a shop where I can buy an AmigaONE or a Pegasos!
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 14 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 24-Oct-2001 19:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Anonymous):
Anonymous ( a nice name for someone who has to say nothing ) again, I don't see your point. I don't buy a computer to have newest technology. I need applications. I want to use this computer. I use my Amiga because it is usefull for me. Amithlon will be more usefull. AmigaONE? Pegasos? They are not available. So they are not usefull. Isn't it easy?
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 15 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Shawn on 24-Oct-2001 19:18 GMT
To jurgen and anybody that belives like him. Haage even admits to pc hardware being out of date. I have the email.
The reason why the Amiga hardware was a liitle pricey is becasue you can do more with it ie a scsi card that reads 1-4 scsi type, holds a harddrive and ram, and external scsi and can be used in any zorro slot. The advertsing was and is the problem . You cant show AMIGA uae and expect people to come in droves its inst AMIGA it only hurts. Amiga XL cant run pc stuff so they will just say why bother and another loss . Merlancia is on the right road. I have spent many an hour talking to Dave and Ryan. Doing the right thing takes time and Merlancia is doing just that. Newtek is who you should vent your anger to. They belive in the pc mindset now. They have been "bought" out by mickysoft.
Southbridge (which was until recently just a PCI device itself).
This model uses multiple bus architectures that are incompatible with one
another. Aside from the difficulties inherent in this, it also makes it
difficult for a machine to scale well. The largest drawback, however, is
that the various busses easily become saturated. For example, a typical
Southbridge includes an EIDE ATA/100 controller and USB controller (in
addition to the other myriad devices). These two devices alone are require
more bandwidth than the PCI bus is capable of sustaining. With the
inclusion of FireWire, Ultra2 SCSI (let alone Ultra160 and Ultra320) and
audio it quickly becomes evident that the current shared-bus architecture
design methodology is inadequate and will only get worse as these peripheral
technologies improve. I won’t even discuss how bad it will get for video if
it continues to reside on AGP.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 16 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by ROTFLMAO! on 24-Oct-2001 19:21 GMT
LOL!
Some of you people are truely fools.
Go on and support crap hardware, and crap sowftware.
Then, in 6-12 months, when they go under because everyone else isn't a fool, cryin your milk about being left high and dry.
The end od Amiga is near, at least as a h/w concept.
The only possible way fo Amiga to survive is through software.
And, its doubtful it will ever be more than a 'curiosity' to a small subset of the geek population.
Go buy your lame duck hardware, and crap software.
Sad thing is, any 15 year old can get a summer job and buy both a 1+ Ghz system, and killer software.
But, feel free blowing $1000-1500 on a shite 400 Mhz PPC, with a generic feature board.
And keep telling yourself that is all about the OS anyways, not the hardware.
Of course, the OS is 10 years old also.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 17 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 24-Oct-2001 20:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (ROTFLMAO!):
Nice nick. Notice trolls always need to hide behind anonymous? McDonalds is cheaper than Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, does that mean a 'Big Mac' is higher quality than a Porterhouse steak? I have both a high end PC and a high end Amiga. Guess what I use ~90% of the time? Yup the Amiga.
Anyhow my 2cents. I think Amithalon can be a good thing. I know at least one person who a former Amigan that hasn't owned an Amiga in 5 years who will be buying AmigaOSXL. I know 2 more who are thinking about it. Maybe this will bring back a few users? I doubt Amigans with high end hardware will sell their systems for Amithalon on PC hardware. I may buy it for my PC, but no way in hell I'm selling my A3k because of it. And no way in hell I will stop buying quality Amiga software(notice I said quality).
Payback w/update 5-Warp3D:Requires real Amiga with 3D GFX card. I own it, if you don't go buy it now. Don't tell me there are no quality original software titles for the Amiga. And guess what? If the complainers would open their eyes and buy quality original software(oh I forgot the compainers dont actually own a Amiga), then we would see more quality original titles. James Daniels may be making more original titles if Payback sells enough.
Freespace:Requires real Amiga with Warp3D. Don't tell me Hyperion does BAD PORTS. They do GOOD ports for people who actually use their amigas, i will be buying it. I'm curious to see how it performs on my 060/75 w/Voodoo3.
Regards,
redrumloa
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 18 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Andrew Deacon on 24-Oct-2001 20:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Jürgen Lange):
Amithlon won't run WarpUP software, or the new PPC parts of OS4.x
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 19 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Andrew Deacon on 24-Oct-2001 20:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (ROTFLMAO!):
I doubt replacing my BPPC /Bvision with a A1 and Matrox video card will cost
anywhere near $1000-1500.
Basically the only difference in cost between an A1 and a PC will be the cost
of the motherboard/cpu. Sure A1 will be more expensive, but to me it's worth it.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 20 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Oct-2001 20:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (redrumloa):
> Payback w/update 5-Warp3D:Requires real Amiga with 3D GFX card. I own it,
> if you don't go buy it now. Don't tell me there are no quality original
> software titles for the Amiga.
In terms of games there are very few. Even though Payback is an original title, it is not an original game design (being a clone of GTA). But yes it seems a good enough game, and if it was my type of game I'd buy it.
> And guess what? If the complainers would open their eyes and buy quality
> original software(oh I forgot the compainers dont actually own a Amiga),
> then we would see more quality original titles. James Daniels may be making
> more original titles if Payback sells enough.
Sorry, I did in fact complain, that's true. But if you think I don't own an Amiga (and I mean a fully qualified genuine Amiga) you are wrong. You are equally wrong if you think I don't own Amiga software. However one or two decent original games a year will not be enough to sustain a market.
> Freespace:Requires real Amiga with Warp3D.
No, it doesn't. Hyperion's statement is based on 060+3D card (software renderer on 060 is too slow) or PPC with or without 3D. In fact Freespace runs on both AmigaXL and Amithlon (using the software renderer), most likely at a decent speed as the emulated 68k has more processing power than the BPPC and CSPPC of today. However, this is not acknowledged on Hyperion's requirements as they don't recognise the existence of AmigaOS XL as a viable platform.
> Don't tell me Hyperion does BAD PORTS. They do GOOD ports for people who
> actually use their amigas, i will be buying it. I'm curious to see how it
> performs on my 060/75 w/Voodoo3.
They do good OLD ports, and that's why those ports can't compete with the Windows versions which by then have become dirt cheap. Whose fault is that?
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 21 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 24-Oct-2001 20:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Andrew Deacon):
> Amithlon won't run WarpUP software,
That's true, but then no one said it would.
> or the new PPC parts of OS4.x
Most of those parts can easily be compiled for 68k, but they won't be because Amiga Inc are comitted to an exclusive PPC future. Forget the so-called hardware agnostic OS 5.0 because that's just a smokescreen. AmigaDE needs a hardware dependent core to run on as it lacks some features needed in a modern desktop OS. That hardware dependent core will always be PPC, as the same parties who now invest so heavily in a PPC future will not permit a multi-hardware platform solution to be released. What makes you think so many 68k programmers will now recode their apps to PPC, and then in 2 years time recode everything again for VP?
There is no problem with people choosing to go the PPC route, as long as they don't demand everyone else join them against their better judgement.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 22 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 24-Oct-2001 21:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Bill Hoggett):
I can clearly see that many people in here don't actually want to be
active Amiga users.... If you don't want to then LEAVE!
Ok for people that buy and use Amithlon and buy Amiga software for
it... People that buy Amithlon, and use it for old software or pirated
software because the new SW "doesn't worth a penny" ARE NOT AMIGA
USERS! THEY ARE FULL BLOWN PC USERS AND JUST USE AN EMULATOR!!
2 ways to support the Amiga guys... Either buy Amiga HW and SW
(i'll follow this, expensive or not), or get the emulator AND
buy amiga sw...
NO middle way... If you wanna flame me...feel free... Hell if I
care... What I say are facts... If everyone had a "why use Amiga
software, windows sw is better" logic, the Amiga would be dead...
If you have this logic...leave... There's nothing to hold you here,
except maybe your egoism....
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 23 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 24-Oct-2001 21:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Sorry... on te capital part i mean a "RETRO EMULATOR":)
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 24 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by zootzoot on 24-Oct-2001 21:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>buy Amiga HW and SW
Sorry, but there isn't much 3rd party hardware or software development going on, and without an expanding market this will not change.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 25 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Frank Livadaros on 24-Oct-2001 22:55 GMT
There is one thing that most people seem to ignore.
The vast majority of Amiga users uses pirated stuff, even today.
Most of Amithlon's users will use pirated copies of Amithlon to
run pirated software.
Additionally, it is more than obvious (and sensible) that most
(i.e. 99%) of Amithlon users will also run another OS on their
machine, which in most cases will be Windows.
Why should I believe that any of those people would wait for the
Amiga version of a program when they can have a PC version sooner
and cheaper due to economies of scale? (some people from Hyperion
have already talked about that in another thread)
What makes anyone believe that any sensible software developer
that has to make a living out of his products would devote
money and time to develop anything for Amiga running on Amithlon
while he can write stuff for another OS (ie Windows) that will run
on the *same* hardware as Amithlon and which provides better
development tools and a vastly larger user base?
How hardcore and fanaticized does one have to be in order not to
install Windows on his AMD/Intel machine and wait for an Amithlon
version of the same software or just *ignore* some good software
on the Windows platform because he wants to use Workbench instead?
Anyone developing for the Amithlon (supposing it's the only Amiga
around) is actually competing with the big companies in the PC market
because most Amithlon users will use a PC OS as well (unless they're
extreme fanatics). Most developers left in the Amiga are still on this
platform not only because they like the Amiga environment (which I do
understand) but also because in the Amiga market they can have larger
profit margins than in the PC market. Not to mention of course, that
in the PC market most of them wouldn't last a month and would have to
get a job in somebody else's company.
Amithlon is something that I will definately use so that I can have
a portable (classic as they say) Amiga, to run the software that I
already run on my Amigas.
This though is not a viable evolutionary path since I will definately
not wait for anyone to release e.g. Warcraft3 of Word on the Amithlon
so that I can say that I'm running it on Workbench, while I can dual
boot the system to Windows (although I do not like Windows as an OS).
Think of it the other way around as well. I did not run Lotus123 on
Transformer or PCTask because I had native programs (Procalc and
Turbocalc) that were so much better.
On the other hand, Amiga-specific hardware like the Pegasos or the
AmigaOne (yes, I know they use PC parts but they cannot run Windows,
can they) is a guarantee for the software developer that he will not
be competing with the big Wintel software companies and that he can
play in his small or medium sized pond (like the Amiga market used to
be in 1988-1993; Now it's not even a glass of water). This is the only
way the Amiga developers can survive (after they re-appear that is) and
the only way we can get some decent *original* (not conversions) software
like we used to a few years ago.
The same goes for all those Macintosh companies.
As for hardware, I do not foresee a market like one that existed with GVP,
ICD, Supra, Phase5 etc, as the parts for Pegasos and AmigaOne are industry
standard. This can only exist if a new Amiga would use very proprietary
stuff like the A1000,500 etc did and had a leading edge compared to the
IBM PC.
Anyhow, the Amithlon/AmigaXL is a good idea for anyone who wants to run
(classic) Amiga stuff, but just that.
The AmigaOne and Pegasos is our chance to break free of hacked PPC boards,
aging motherboards and out-of-production chips and to see some innovative
people returning to the market since they'll be able to make money out of it.
Anyone who does not accept the fact that most of the software is still
being pirated, is just voluntarily being blind or lives in an ivory tower.
Just my 2c.
Frank
...Amiga user since 1987
A3000/040, A1200HD/030/SCSI, A1200HD/030, A2000/030/SCSI, A500HD, CDTV.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 26 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by mark on 24-Oct-2001 23:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Frank Livadaros):
Your points are correct - Amithlon faces competition from other systems such as Windows, and will struggle to attract developers. But this is true of any new Amiga hardware too.
Piracy - this will exist on new Amiga PPC hardware too, I see no evidence that Amithlon users are more likely to pirate software.
As far as the argument that Amithlon users would rather use the Windows version of an application or game, I would guess that many Amiga owners (current, or future PPC owners) will also have a PC lying around.. they are cheap and plentiful enough these days. So why would they buy Amiga software when they could run the Windows version? Indeed, why would they buy Amiga hardware at all, when the PC hardware is produced "sooner and cheaper"?
If we're assuming that a market exists for those wanting to run AmigaOS and its Amiga software (as we must if we are to assume anyone wants future PPC Amigas), then there is a market for Amithlon, and software to run on it (be it 68k or x86 optimised).
Also if I'm running Amithlon on a PC, all things being equal I would rather have the Amiga version of something to save me having to reboot into Windows (not to mention preferring to use software under AmigaOS).
How hardcore and fanaticized does one have to be to not buy a PC, and instead wait for a PPC Amiga, and then wait longer still for an Amiga version of the software, or just *ignore* some good PC hardware and Windows software just because he wants to use Workbench instead?
You describe someone running Amithlon without using another PC OS as an "extreme fanatic", but what about buying expensive Amiga-specific hardware, without using a PC OS?
AmigaOS on Amiga-specific hardware has competition, from both other software and other hardware companies.
As far as PCTask is concerned, were your reasons for emulating because Windows was your preferred choice of OS and PCTask was the fastest way in existance to run Windows and its applications, or because there were a few applications you needed to run that didn't exist on the Amiga?
I don't have anything particularly against the idea of Amiga specific hardware btw, I just feel all of your points apply just as much to that as they do to Amithlon.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 27 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 25-Oct-2001 00:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Shawn):
I really don't know what you are talking about. Amiga hardware wasn't expensive. You haven't to mix it up with Phase5 hardware!
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 28 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Shawn on 25-Oct-2001 01:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (redrumloa):
Thank god ther are people like you still around that know the facts.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 29 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Shawn on 25-Oct-2001 01:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Alkis so true .Thats why we are where we are . soon ther is hope and something isnt as ded as it was thought to be.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 30 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Oct-2001 01:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Frank Livadaros):
Actually we go to substandard when we do the so called AmigaOne which is a zico and a joke. We must have new hardware and be there first. Then when they have to upgrade or the industry makers make it we are there already and they have to listen to us. Not like before but make Amiga clones. Its so easy. Like I said given the money Amiga had I would have had the SONY VAIO be the new AMIGA .
Also IBM and NEC would all be making Amiga clones and anybody else that wanted to. This is of course newer hardware and software not the substandard old hardware some think as new. Merlancia is going the right way so far.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 31 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Shawn on 25-Oct-2001 01:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (mark):
Mark and anybody else that belives like him. If you dont know why you should buy Amiga hardware you shouldnt even be using computers. Ill make it simple for you . Amiga Hardware/Software is better. Any discussion email me.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 32 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Lange on 25-Oct-2001 02:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Frank Livadaros):
> Additionally, it is more than obvious (and sensible) that most
> (i.e. 99%) of Amithlon users will also run another OS on their
> machine, which in most cases will be Windows.
I'll run Linux on the same mashine because of the lack of some apps for my busyness. For the same reason I've bought a x86 PC some months ago.
> Why should I believe that any of those people would wait for the
> Amiga version of a program when they can have a PC version sooner
> and cheaper due to economies of scale? (some people from Hyperion
> have already talked about that in another thread)
The Hyperion people aren't right. AmigaOS or MorphOS will always compete with Windows/Linux/other OSs. If I want to use AmigaOS 4.0 or MorphOS, I have to buy new Hardware AND a new OS. One example: I've bought a new x86 PC (with an outdated AMD K6-II, 256MB RAM, NVIDEA TNT2 64, sound on board) plus Suse Linux for 450 USD. I've got two office packages and two browsers with my Linux and a lot of other software, too. And I'm able to buy quality software for this system.
> What makes anyone believe that any sensible software developer
> that has to make a living out of his products would devote
> money and time to develop anything for Amiga running on Amithlon
> while he can write stuff for another OS (ie Windows) that will run
> on the *same* hardware as Amithlon and which provides better
> development tools and a vastly larger user base?
What makes you believe that a software developer buying an AmigaONE or a Pegasos will be able to make a living out of his products? The people using this machines will use pirated software and they will not have money for software because all their money went into hardware. AND NOTE: Most of this people NEED a second computer for their busyness (which will be a x86 PC or an Apple)
> How hardcore and fanaticized does one have to be in order not to
> install Windows on his AMD/Intel machine and wait for an Amithlon
> version of the same software or just *ignore* some good software
> on the Windows platform because he wants to use Workbench instead?
How hardcore does one have to be to use an Amiga? I'm using an A4000 because I like the OS and the application software I've bought. In 1999 I was able to buy software for 700 USD at the Amiga fair in Cologne, in 2000 I brought my money back home because there wasn't that much new software.
> Anyone developing for the Amithlon (supposing it's the only Amiga
> around) is actually competing with the big companies in the PC market
> because most Amithlon users will use a PC OS as well (unless they're
> extreme fanatics). Most developers left in the Amiga are still on this
> platform not only because they like the Amiga environment (which I do
> understand) but also because in the Amiga market they can have larger
> profit margins than in the PC market. Not to mention of course, that
> in the PC market most of them wouldn't last a month and would have to
> get a job in somebody else's company.
Developers will always compete. There is no Amiga World!
> Amithlon is something that I will definately use so that I can have
> a portable (classic as they say) Amiga, to run the software that I
> already run on my Amigas.
I'll run Amithlon on my desktop. I've got a call from Haage & Partner yesterday that I can fetch my AmigaOS XL.
> This though is not a viable evolutionary path since I will definately
> not wait for anyone to release e.g. Warcraft3 of Word on the Amithlon
> so that I can say that I'm running it on Workbench, while I can dual
> boot the system to Windows (although I do not like Windows as an OS).
> Think of it the other way around as well. I did not run Lotus123 on
> Transformer or PCTask because I had native programs (Procalc and
> Turbocalc) that were so much better.
Lotus 123 and Excel have changed but Procalc and Turbocalc haven't. They are outdated. But I'm still using Turbocalc.
> On the other hand, Amiga-specific hardware like the Pegasos or the
> AmigaOne (yes, I know they use PC parts but they cannot run Windows,
> can they) is a guarantee for the software developer that he will not
> be competing with the big Wintel software companies and that he can
> play in his small or medium sized pond (like the Amiga market used to
> be in 1988-1993; Now it's not even a glass of water). This is the only
> way the Amiga developers can survive (after they re-appear that is) and
> the only way we can get some decent *original* (not conversions)
> software like we used to a few years ago.
What do you know about the Amiga market in 1988-1993? In those days millions of Amigas were sold. The new Amiga market (PPC Amiga market) will be much smaller than the old one (68k Amiga market) today. Most Amiga developers are 68k developers. First class PPC software is hard to find. And why should developers re-appear. Open your eyes. Those developer are using a x86 PC or a Mac today...
> The same goes for all those Macintosh companies.
For the Mac you'll find MS Office and, hello, you are in the real world ;-).
But there IS a market. And there are applications and there are first class applications companies are using!
Anyhow, the Amithlon/AmigaXL is a good idea for anyone who wants to run
(classic) Amiga stuff, but just that.
The future will show.
> The AmigaOne and Pegasos is our chance to break free of hacked PPC
> boards, aging motherboards and out-of-production chips
I agree
> and to see some innovative people returning to the market since they'll
> be able to make money out of it.
I disagree
> Anyone who does not accept the fact that most of the software is still
> being pirated, is just voluntarily being blind or lives in an ivory
> tower.
If this is true, you will have sales of 2-300 copies for this new PPC OS software. You want to make a living?
Jürgen
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 33 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by CumGuzzler on 25-Oct-2001 03:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Shawn):
Blame Newtek?! Are you some kind of idiot socialist or something? Commodore's demise was Commodore's fault. Newtek was the only company actively promoting Amiga computers in major video magazines the U.S. when Commodore wouldn't even pay for a postage-stamp sized ad, you ungrateful piece of dog shit.
Remember this, commie. There is nothing noble about going out of business because you think the Amiga was a nice computer. Newtek (and the rest of the Amiga developers) got fucked by Commodore, so Newtek did the smart thing and made their MONEY-MAKING SOFTWARE for not only Windows, but for MacOS and Irix. Despite that, they continued to sell and support VT for the Amiga, despite the platform being DEAD (in 1994!) And now, the Toaster dream is alive again in VT[2]. The OS is unimportant in the grand scheme of things, it's the apps that count. Do I like Windows? No, but I don't hate it, because it's just a fucking computer OS. No one stays in business hanging on to a pipe dream. It's about money, stupid hippie gaywad, not appeasing faggoty little computer geeks.
In short, what I always wanted was a Video Toaster, not an Amiga, so I don't care if the fucking thing runs on the PalmOS. The main thing is that Newtek has finally returned the VT back to the world. For that, you should be licking the insides of their anuses with your filthy leftist tongue.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 34 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by EyeAm on 25-Oct-2001 03:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Regarding Alkis' comments:
"AmigaOS XL - The death of all commercial Amiga development, and HW
development. The death of the Amiga... Now more and more people will
screw their plans for getting an AmigaONE or Pegasos and go this way..
If this thing stops enough people from buying Amiga HW, overpriced or
not, and PC ports, good or not, then... bye bye Amiga..."
This is not the death of the Amiga--it's already died more times than Jason Voorhees and Michael Myers put together! :) This is what Amiga has needed for a LONG time. And, even though these are emulators, Bill McEwen already stated that they are porting Amiga OS to x86 architecture so it will then run natively on regular, off-the-shelf PC hardware. Amiga is becoming the Amiga PC, and since they are no longer doing hardware, it makes perfect sense. No overhead regarding hardware, they can focus more on the OS and drivers for the most popular and technically superior graphics and audio cards. Cheaper hardware will translate to more sales of software titles to Amigans, who would have otherwise spent most or all their money just to get a machine in the first place.
We don't need the high prices, anymore, haunting and dooming Amiga like a ghost from the past. Even Merlancia could more quickly put together off-the-shelf hardware and ship machines installed with Amiga OS, rather than to try and sell a 'few' to a very niche market...leaving the rest out in the cold because they couldn't afford a high-priced machine AND the software they want or need. Again, Amiga is a software company.
Mick Tinker could convert the BoXeR to utilize an AMD cpu, get with Merlancia even, pop a Catweasel card into the ISA slot, an Amiga OS running native on x86 (with emulation of the Classic Amiga programs) Matrox 550 PCI video card, Creative Labs Soundblaster audio card, and have the beginnings of a new flagship sanctioned by the parent company. That's one idea; surely, there are other combinations and ideas floating about that would work.
For those hellbent on PPC, make it the 'high-end Amiga'. ;) Then let's see which one sells more.
--EyeAm
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 35 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 25-Oct-2001 04:53 GMT
AmigaOS XL ---- a planb for me, if nothing else materializes (and my A4k dies)
(btw. a4k&OS3.9 running fifth day without a crash ... am I just hallucinating ...)
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 36 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 25-Oct-2001 05:06 GMT
Still one more word for AmigaOSXL.
I think it is positive because that gives me confidence to continue buying Amiga 68k apps (SW for $400 per year since 1998) for my 68k Amiga, even though my a4k has indicated some HW problems. If a4k dies, I'll move the HD to my Duron box and continue.
I will not pay $1200 for DCE "dongle" to be able to run kludge PPC apps.
I will rather spend the same amount of money on AmigaOne box, though, because that enables me to gradually replace a dying HW platform. (And then I'll start investing in pure PPC apps...)
IMHO: If future PPC amigas do not materialize, then we should start thinking about native x86 Amiga apps, but not before.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 37 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 25-Oct-2001 05:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
> Ok for people that buy and use Amithlon and buy Amiga software
> for it... People that buy Amithlon, and use it for old
> software or pirated software because the new SW "doesn't
> worth a penny" ARE NOT AMIGA USERS! THEY ARE FULL BLOWN PC
> USERS AND JUST USE AN EMULATOR!!
I doesn't even matter what sort of computer users they are. They are just pirates or retrogamers. The first won't buy Amithlon, they'll pirate it, and the second will be far better off with WinUAE anyway so they should buy Amiga Forever 5.0. (plug for Cloanto there)
> 2 ways to support the Amiga guys... Either buy Amiga HW and SW
> (i'll follow this, expensive or not), or get the emulator AND
> buy amiga sw...
I absolutely agree, but developers must develop good software in return. Some already do, and I will continue to buy it.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 38 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 25-Oct-2001 05:45 GMT
And again, everybody using an emulator is a traitor...
Did you ever think about it this way: After buying an emulator and AmigaOS (money to Amiga Inc.), I have lots of cash left I can use to buy Amiga software (money to the developers).
After buying an AmigaOne (money to Eyetech, and the same amount as above to Amiga Inc.), I don´t have lots of cash left so I buy less Amiga software (less money to the developers).
If you look at it this way, the AmigaOne becomes the most expensive OS dongle in history.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 39 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Solar (BAUD) on 25-Oct-2001 05:47 GMT
Oh, and lest I forget, do you realize that, for Amiga Inc., it really doesn´t matter if you buy an A1200 or a copy of Amiga Forever? *They* sell a copy of their OS regardless.
The same would be true for the co-existence of the AmigaOne and an AmigaOS 4.x-enabled Amithlon or whatever. Amiga Inc. really couldn´t care less.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 40 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Oct-2001 06:35 GMT
Why do you guys even try ? it's quite clear that many of those Amithlong supporters simply don't care what happens to Amiga. Whatever you say those guys will just laugh at AmigaOne and so on :( I'm sure not all but many of those guys are just PC users who want to play old games. If Amithlon kills kills Amiga they can thik "oh well, who cares" and then they can continue using they BillOS.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 41 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 25-Oct-2001 06:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (redrumloa):
>Payback w/update 5-Warp3D:Requires real Amiga with 3D GFX card.
It runs fine in uae on my duron 800, in 640x480.
>James Daniels may be making more original titles if Payback sells enough.
Original? From what's I've seen, it's a 1:1 copy of GTA. Don't get me wrong, it's probably a great game, but a port would have been so much easier.
>Freespace:Requires real Amiga with Warp3D. Don't tell me Hyperion does BAD PORTS. They do GOOD ports for people who actually use their amigas, i will be buying it. I'm curious to see how it performs on my 060/75 w/Voodoo3.
Like Hyperion people said themselves, noone will buy the Amiga port if they can buy the cheap PC version. Now, we all know that most amiga users today also have a PC. Why not focus on original games?
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 42 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 25-Oct-2001 06:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
What a backward statement. OK so I cant use Amiathlon or XL because if I do so Im not supporting the Amiga?
Facts
1) Im buying because I used to use UAE to run on my laptop an Amiga system for development purposes ( and to show the Amiga desktop to the masses rather than just talk about it ). So I cant have a faster system because of some kind of weird betrayal in your eyes. Just cos you say it means it must be true. This is the computing industry not a religious faith.
2) Buying a PC and running AmigaDE, course that MUST be a betrayal. Makes me a full blown PC user NOT an Amiga user??? I bet you $1000 that I know more about the Amiga than you do, use it more, know its flaws and at least accept it needs a rewrite.
3) I suppose Im also betraying the Amiga by having a Mediator, PCI based TV card, Sound card, GFX card, Network card? I must have betrayed the Amiga by buying a Blizzard PPC, any third party expansion like my Zorro-II slots and my Picasso IV! Oh NO Ive got an IBM hard disk in my Amiga! Im an evil betrayer!!!!!
I heard trash like most of the comments above when Amiga Forever came out, UAE even! Ive heard the same people claim that the Amiga is about the hardware, the software, the OS, the community. Make up your damn minds!
Ive heard trash written about 500MHz PPCs being slow, these are marketing peoples dreams - course MHz is an important factor in computing power rather than the architecture of the system. Im amazed an Amiga 500 even boots then!
If you are going to open your mouth and let Mr Hankey out at least live a few years in "Reality" first, learn about a few of the systems you are all so keen to slag off or are you frightened you might actually like them?
To many people are left in the Amiga community with little or no knowledge of computing, overzealous opinions and over simplified views.
Im running 'Athlon or XL on my laptop whether you like it or not so grow up!
Dave,
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 43 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Mika Hanhijärvi on 25-Oct-2001 06:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Brecht):
Well it would be good ofcourse. but creating "original" games is more and more difficult today when there is millions of games already published. it was easy back in 80's or early 90's but today it is not so easy to find idea which haven't used already. And devloping a new game requires much more resources, money and time than porting someone elss game. And I don't all Amiga users have a PC it's just illusion which PC users do have. Eg. I don't have a PC, I don't think myself as a fanatic or anything like that. I simply don't need a PC, I can fight with PC's at school and at work.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 44 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 25-Oct-2001 06:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Bill Hoggett):
Pirates?????? Retrogamers???? I think if you are going to buy XL or Amithlon you will soon find out you cannot run most of those "games" that people put up on ADF.
With respect Solar ( the Solar off Amiga.org ) I am NOT a pirate or a "retrogamer" in the negative sense of the word. My study is littered with Amiga HW and SW but also PCs, a Playstation et al.
Many of us will buy the products you are all flaming just to give us an Amiga on a laptop!
If AmigaONE is any good I will buy it - much respect to Alan and I think it will be. But it does not mean that I will not develop my laptop using UAE, Amiathlon, XL or whatever takes my fancy.
Go on, suggest I use PAWS - I dare you!
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 45 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 25-Oct-2001 07:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Dave):
Damn I hate it when I click reply to on the wrong post! Sorry Bill!
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 46 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Mika Hanhijärvi on 25-Oct-2001 07:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Brecht):
Well it would be good ofcourse. but creating "original" games is more and more difficult today when there is millions of games already published. It was easy back in 80's or early 90's, but today it is not so easy to find an idea which haven't been used already. I haven't seen really original PC game long time anymore, and that makes it quite boring. Developing a new game also requires much more resources, money and time than porting someone elses game. And I don't think all Amiga users do have a PC it's just an illusion which PC users do have. Eg. I don't have a PC, I don't think myself as a fanatic or anything like that. I simply don't need a PC, I can fight with PC's at school and at work. I can play with PSX, and if there is something I can't do with my Amiga, I can do it eg. at school.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 47 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 25-Oct-2001 07:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Dave):
And apologies for Solar - I caught a quote not your post. Jeez - puts double barrelled in mouth - click...BOOM!
( PS folks Ive got Amiga and PC copies of the same game. Must make me a sad bastard really )
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 48 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 25-Oct-2001 10:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Jürgen Lange):
>If I want to use AmigaOS 4.0 or MorphOS, I have to buy new Hardware AND a new OS
>
That is only true if you do not possess a PPC accelerator already
MorphOS runs fine on PowerUP (and GREX).
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 49 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 25-Oct-2001 11:01 GMT
There's a lindows project based on wine so that windows software can run on linux.
I'd imagine this, or similar will be transfered to Amiga.
AmigaOS XL: Sale started on 18.10. : Comment 50 of 54ANN.lu
Posted by Dave on 25-Oct-2001 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (John Block):
Isnt the work on that project solely focussed on the x86 line?
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