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[News] Interview with Ben Hermans from HyperionANN.lu
Posted on 07-Nov-2001 20:45 GMT by Christophe Decanini194 comments
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Christoph Gutjahr interviewed Hyperion about AmigaOS 4.0. You can read the interview on amiga-news.de in English or in German.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 51 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 08-Nov-2001 10:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Graham):
Yes, but that doesn't stop Linux from being fundimentally overcomplicated for a home-user Desktop OS.
The fact that there ARE so many distributions in itself complicates it further for the Desktop user, because there is less uniformity between versions.
I'm not saying Linux is a BAD operating system, but it is just not suited to the Desktop. Not at home, at any rate.
I personally DO NOT want a KDE-driven desktop over OS4.0, and the fact that we very probably won't get one is a good thing imho.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 52 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 08-Nov-2001 10:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (Graham):
Oh, and Windows can have its start menu on ANY edge of the screen. Does that make it good? :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 53 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 10:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Peter Gordon):
KDE is not Linux.
It just happens to run on it, but don't attribute Linuxes problems to KDE.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 54 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by wouter on 08-Nov-2001 10:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ha Ben, are you belgian?
As an amiga owner since 1986, i'm more than happy to meet you in Leuven and discuss your "anti x86" attitude :)
>x86 architecture for reasons we have outlined before and which have to do with Windows smothering all competition"
x86 is about hardware. So who cares if it's intel, amd, motorola? Fast and cheap. It's the OS that counts.
As a user, i want to be able to buy the best hardware at the cheapest prices. I think we all spend enough on ridiculous overpriced outdated hardware allready in the last years, don't you?
Amiga will run on cyberstorm ppc boards. Wasn't it hyperion themselves who said that a clean break was necessary. Modern hardware, not going backwards?
Amiga on x86 is THE only way for survival.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 55 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 10:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Peter Gordon):
Judging by the number of start menu clones on Aminet, a lot of people like the idea.
Of course, in an Amiga, the option would be there to turn it off. Like there is in KDE (who at least don't label it "start" and who can also get it to scale to the height of the bar).
The fact is a modern OS can do a lot more with applications, AmigaOS barely supports minimisation, and that to an icon on the desktop. At least a taskbar/menu allows you easy access to that iconified menu... Task management is a large part of any desktop OS, and Workbench has none, apart from the launcher tabs in 3.9, and the aforementioned Aminet tools.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 56 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 08-Nov-2001 11:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Brecht [darklite]):
> I didn't mention WarpOS.
No, I did.
> What else will be new that's not in OS3.9?
A lot. Details will be available shortly.
> Linux is a success in the professional world, but not on the desktop market
Servers and the like, yes. AmigaOS, regardless of PPC, 68k or X86 is no server OS, but a desktop OS. That is exactly the point. You cannot co-exist in the desktop market. I never claimed anything else.
> In the embedded market mostly.
Yes, QNX is an embedded product. Where x86 has zero influence. Unlike the Motorola embedded PowerPC's, or StrongArms.
> But all these OS's are/were far more successfull on the desktop market than
> a PPC AmigaOS will ever be.
Sure, in the server market where AmigaOS is as inept as Win95. With *no* system security *whatsoever*, how would you like to compete there?
Again, show me one single desktop OS besides Windows that has any significance. If you don't like the BeOS example, pick one of the others. I don't care. DesktopWindows.
> You know better than to generalise than that.
No, sorry. That's all I ever see of UAE users.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 57 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Hans-Joerg Frieden on 08-Nov-2001 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (smithy):
> The failure of Be was given as a reason to not have a version of AmigaOS on
> the PC. But Be didn't go bankrupt because of BeOS on the PC (that is the
> context being expressed). In fact, BeOS/x86 increased the sales of BeOS
> massively, generated revenue and gave them a high street presence.
Fact is, that in spite of offering *free* versions of BeOS to PC manufacturers, there was only one series of PC'S where BeOS was actually pre-installed, but disabled by default. You call that a success?
> How many people do you know actually download their Linux copies?
So that gives a business opportunity for Distro sellers. What about software developers? How many successful software developers exist? Even essential projects like DRI are canned because of lack of funding.
> QNX are moving into the desktop market
They've been trying that for years. Yet they didn't succeed. Just have a look at QNX. There is so much essentials missing, it cannot even calibrate the display correctly.
> Which parts have I bent?
" Would half as many people still be using AmigaOS, and active members of the community if it wasn't for UAE/x86 and Amithlon/x86? No. "
Amithlon is a bad example, as you said yourself. About UAE... It's a bad example, too.
>I think the stereotypical emulator user/retro-gamer doesn't fit anymore.
So what? Do they buy Amiga software? I highly doubt that. So they aren't interesting from a business point of view. That is what I mean with "users arent customers". How are you going to make a living from people that mostly dwell on the "good old times"?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 58 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 08-Nov-2001 11:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (wouter):
>Ha Ben, are you belgian?
I certainly am.
>As an amiga owner since 1986, i'm more than happy to meet you in Leuven and >discuss your "anti x86" attitude :)
You're welcome to do so. Contact me via e-mail if you want.
Maybe I can turn it into a seminar.
>x86 architecture for reasons we have outlined before and which have to do with >Windows smothering all competition"
x86 is about hardware. So who cares if it's intel, amd, motorola? Fast and cheap. It's the OS that counts.
I agree. I have nothing against the (unelegant, powerhungry but fast and cheap) x86 architecture.
The only problem is that x86 means Windows and Windows stiffles competition.
Theoretically, an x86 box which cannot run Windows would do the trick but unfortunately that would be a custom product making the whole affaire "expensive" again.
>As a user, i want to be able to buy the best hardware at the cheapest prices. I >think we all spend enough on ridiculous overpriced outdated hardware allready >in the last years, don't you?
Again, I agree. Products like the AmigaOne will allow you to use standard PCI/AGP/USB etc. hardware.
A solution to provide cheap PPC systems is imminent but I can't comment further.
>Amiga will run on cyberstorm ppc boards. Wasn't it hyperion themselves who said >that a clean break was necessary. Modern hardware, not going backwards?
You need an installed base. These people payed a lot of money for their hardware which in terms of performance is roughly equivalent to a K6-2 @400 to 466 Mhz, depending on the model you have.
There is no reason to leave these people in the cold provided no design compromises need to be made.
>Amiga on x86 is THE only way for survival.
It certainly isn't. Cheap hardware is the way for survival regardless of the make of CPU and as long as it isn't a machine capable of running Windows.
Hell, even that isn't true. Apple is doing fine and their hardware is quite expensive really.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 59 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 08-Nov-2001 11:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Graham):
I'm not!
Linux is overcomplicated. KDE isn't the nicest Desktop i've ever used. As a combination I don't think its a good home-user Desktop OS.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 60 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam cheese on 08-Nov-2001 11:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
i agree with ben here.. people undestimate the monopoly power of windoze.
if you are an OS on x86 you are not competing, just living day to day thanking
god for your survival... amiga0s4.0 - 4.5 has *no chance* on x86//
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 61 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Nov-2001 11:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (adam cheese):
This is crazy... I'm still waiting for an answer to the question:
what stops people from buying an x86 machine *anyway*?
Try to answer to that...
Fabio Alemagna
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 62 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam cheese on 08-Nov-2001 11:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Amiga will run on cyberstorm ppc boards. Wasn't it hyperion themselves who said >that a clean break was necessary. Modern hardware, not going backwards?
>You need an installed base. These people payed a lot of money for their >hardware which in terms of performance is roughly equivalent to a K6-2 @400 to >466 Mhz, depending on the model you have.
But isin't most of your installed base already using MorphOS? :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 63 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam ceremuga on 08-Nov-2001 11:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (Fabio Alemagna):
>what stops people from buying an x86 machine *anyway*?
- people don't have enough money on two boxes.
- if they set out to buy x86/windoze fine.
but it's different if something like amithlon promises you amiga and you intend
to use aos but switch over to windoze because of various reasons that always
occur
adam
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 64 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by dakang on 08-Nov-2001 11:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Hoi,
Its a wonder you guys get any work done at all what with the continuous postings on ANN ;-)
Thats why OS4.0 has been delayed: all the developers are too busy posting defences!....
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 65 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 12:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
- Fact is, that in spite of offering *free* versions of BeOS to PC
- manufacturers, there was only one series of PC'S where BeOS was actually
- pre-installed, but disabled by default. You call that a success?
Yes, this was because of Microsofts monopolistic tactics that meant that the company couldn't advertise the systems as being able to boot BeOS, nor were they allowed to boot BeOS (terms of Windows bootloader - only MS OSs can be booted using it). The DoJ decision came 3 years too late for BeOS, and isn't enough to prevent this happening again.
This is another reason why you don't want to mess in the generic x86 PC market.
Graham
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 66 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 12:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
- Theoretically, an x86 box which cannot run Windows would do the trick but
- unfortunately that would be a custom product making the whole affaire
- "expensive" again.
No, it needn't be expensive to make the machine not boot Windows.
Replace the BIOS with something else. Windows cannot boot then. As I said, put a 2MB flash ROM, put the stuff on that that you would be putting on the 2MB flash ROM on the AmigaOne, and you are off.
You could even just try and fit something into a standard 256KB BIOS flash ROM that will read from a small partition on disk (similar to how AlphaBIOS works) that contains your start-up software.
Get one of the x86 motherboard manufacturers to slightly modify an existing design to use 2MB flash ROMs (or larger :)). The problem then turns into one of writing new material for that ROM - which you are already doing for the AmigaOne. Of course, there are x86 nastys to get out of the way as well (turn to 32-bit mode, real mode, do this and that, etc, enable cache on processor, etc).
Graham
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 67 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 12:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (smithy):
>Would Linux have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
I agree. But Linux is a cheap world for home users.
Look how successful are company that tried to sell software for these users.
Amiga won't go the same way as Linux.
>Would QNX have been a success like it is without a x86 port? No.
QNX has been a success on embeded systems before going on X86. I don't think they are selling a lot of systems for desktop use.
>Would half as many people be using Solaris if there was no x86 port. No.
Solaris is mostly on Sparc system. Go on sun.com and find out how many x86 they sell.
>Would half as many people still be using AmigaOS, and active members of the >community if it wasn't for UAE/x86 and Amithlon/x86? No
These UAE users are not contributing ($$$)as much as the people that own a real
I own an Amiga shop and we never see the x86 users coming ...
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 68 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 12:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Mekanix):
>How does that differ from the 99.9% of Amiga-users who does this with a >different x86-box next to the Amiga?
I don't think it is the case. I have no PC and a lot of the people I know only own their Amiga. Some of them have PS2, some of them may have a PC.
>I really don't get this attitude that people haven AmigaOS on a x86 gets an >urge to boot Windows while having a x86 next to an overexpencive AmigaHW you >are less inclined to boot windows? There is no logic in this. This only spells >a smaller userbase.
Smaller user base but a user base that allows commercial development. How could Hyperion, Haage & Partner, ... compete against windows software ?
Do you thing Newtek will do a new lightwave for an x86 Amiga ? No way they would just say "use our Windows version".
>AmigaOS 4.x for x86 will not happen, which mean it's certain now that we'll
We don't know.
>have a second fork of the Amiga community: AROS/Amithlon. 2 fighting for a >minischule overpriced PPC-market and one going for the mainstream x86 >architecture.
Why should the PPC be overpriced ? If it is it will fail and Aros will be the only solution. It will be also the end of commercial applications.
>Anyone for a bet on which one will end up with the largest installed userbase? >My money is on AROS/Amithlon, which suits me just fine.
I bet that in my Amiga shop the most active customers will be the one that have a real AMiga ...
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 69 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Ugr on 08-Nov-2001 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Christophe Decanini):
> Do you thing Newtek will do a new lightwave for an x86 Amiga ?
> No way they would just say "use our Windows version".
Do you think that NewTek will do Ligtwave for only 1000-1500 people using new PPC Amiga?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 70 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 12:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Brecht [darklite]):
>>New OS on new hardware platform with new innovative applications (at an affordable price).
>That combination is impossible. Either it's mainstream and cheap or it's PPC/new and it's expensive.
No it can be in beetween (it has to be)
>1) most Amiga users already own/use a Windows PC. (Christian: poll please? :)
Which one use an Amiga and a PC and whcih one use a PC to run AmigaOS ?
On these last users how many contribute ($$$) to commercial developments ?
>2) There are also other OS's available on PPC: Linux, BSD, MacOS (partial >emulation).
Linux on PPC has not has much application as the current AmigaOS.
BSD is more server oriented.
3) New PPC CPU's can emulate PC's at full speed, so basically, PPC will also run Windows.
But it won't be installed on every machine.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 71 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 12:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Come to Cologne and find out.
This is almost as good as no answer.
>Or better yet, have the guts to meet me in Leuven.
>Industrial engineers ....
You want a showdown? ;)
Asswipes...
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 72 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 12:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Anonymous):
>The x86 line has reached the end.
Absolutely. The x86 line finished development about 6 or 7 years ago. The Pentium is not a 586 and has no relation to the previous x86s. The Pentium was a complete redesign. Then came the Pentiums 2-4 which are also complete redesigns. The fact that they maintain a common interface is irrelevant, it has no bearing on the design or internals of the CPU. The Pentium range is not kludged on top of older x86 models.
Equally, Intel's new 64-bit Itanium will also support the common interface, it'll just be different on the inside having a complete redesign too.
There is no need for emulation.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 73 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by windtalkers on 08-Nov-2001 12:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (smithy):
>In fact, BeOS/x86 increased the sales of BeOS massively, generated revenue and >gave them a high street presence.
And that's why they ended up giving it for free?
Pleeeeaze... get your facts straight
>Market dynamics. In every young market with fast growth there are always too >many players, when the market starts to mature some players disappear.
This is just an excuse, the players who disappear are usually the small ones, not the biggest ones as in this case
"Corel sold out all Linux stuff."
>If I remember correctly that was something to do with Microsoft purchasing a >stake in Corel, not because of the state of the Linux market.
Nothing to do with Microsoft, but with the fact that people don't buy SW for Linux as they are already running Windows and most likely already have the same software. And this is the fear Hyperion has of an x86 AmigaOS, and rightly so.
It would make no sense in porting Windows games to AmigaOS
>QNX are moving into the desktop market and seem to be doing well from it.
Are you kidding yourself?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 74 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by windtalkers on 08-Nov-2001 12:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (tinman):
>Wasn't BeOS/x86 given away free, or was that only towards the end? If it was >free the whole time how did Be increase sales?
BeOS was given free toward the end, when BE having tried everything unsuccessfully had decided to use the last resort. In fact, BeOS came in two versions, a light one for $49 and a more complete one for $59 or $69, can't remember exactly right now.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 75 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 12:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Brecht [darklite]):
In your previous post you just said that none of the Desktop OS on the X86 have been a success except Windows. Do you really think that AmigaOS can beat windows on X86 after the failure of IBM, SUN, Linux, ... ?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 76 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Vidar Langberget on 08-Nov-2001 12:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben Hermans:
Why should a custom x86 box have to be expensive? There are several possibilities that would make it almost impossible to run Windows on a custom x86 machine, and few of those methods are expensive compared to the development that Eyetech and bPlan are undertaking with their respective motherboards.
regards,
Vidar
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 77 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 12:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Ruben Monteiro):
>"Let's run away from Windows, and have a AmigaOS/PPC". Oustanding. This >brilliant move ensures that, besides Microsoft, Amiga now has to compete with >Intel/AMD. But it get's better: the PPC move also ensures Amiga will run on >expensive hardware that's not available anywhere. This is great, because we >don't want to make it easy for people, do we? I mean, what has the world come >to, that you can go to any PC shop and get new hardware for your Amiga, >cheap???
AmigaOS 4.0 has just more chance to expand starting on a specific hardware platform.
Why would Apple stay on PPC ?
X86 is not the key of the success it is the key to compete with windows.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 78 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Nov-2001 12:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (adam ceremuga):
Look, if I want to use windows I DO it, whatever you can say. If I want Amiga then I DO it. If you're afraid that AmigaOS and its application cannot compete with Windows and its applications then you're basically admitting that AmigaOS and its applications are inferior to Windows and its applications. the user choses obviously what's the best for him/her, and if Hyperion says that its products are inferior to the ones available elsewhere then I believe it and go elsewhere. Who can know better than Hyperion whether its products are bad compared to other ones? <g>
At the end Hyperion is not playing a smart game saying that they cannot compete against windows... think of it.
Fabio Alemagna
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 79 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 12:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Hans-Joerg Frieden):
>Fact is, that in spite of offering *free* versions of BeOS to PC
>manufacturers, there was only one series of PC'S where BeOS was actually pre-
>installed, but disabled by default. You call that a success?
If you judge success only by the number of PC manufacturers that pre-install software, then no. But that's not how I judge success in this case. The fact is that the BeOS userbase grew massively after they released the x86 version. They didn't give it away either - there was free "Home" version that was crippled, but you could also get the full version from PC World. Obviously PC World wouldn't have continued stocking it if it didn't sell too.
>So that gives a business opportunity for Distro sellers. What about software
>developers? How many successful software developers exist? Even essential
>projects like DRI are canned because of lack of funding.
PC World also sell Linux software. I have seen various server software selling for up to 100 UKP. Again, obviously PC World isn't going to put products on their shopfloor that don't make money for them. PC World have to pay for their shopspace so they want every last meter to be profitable.
>They've been trying that for years. Yet they didn't succeed. Just have a look
>at QNX. There is so much essentials missing, it cannot even calibrate the
>display correctly.
I agree with you that maybe it's not a rip-roaring success. But compare the relative success of the PowerPC/x86 versions.
>Amithlon is a bad example, as you said yourself. About UAE... It's a bad
>example, too.
>So what? Do they buy Amiga software? I highly doubt that. So they aren't
>interesting from a business point of view. That is what I mean with "users
>arent customers". How are you going to make a living from people that mostly
>dwell on the "good old times"?
Well the fact is that when people buy Amiga software nobody actually knows whether they are going to run it on Amiga hardware or on UAE. I myself have bought more software this year (after getting a usable Amiga system on the PC) than I did last year (after having a semi-broken Amiga).
I am sure I am not the only person who's main use of AmigaOS is through running it emulated.
Also, I doubt anyone is much making a living from AmigaOS software at the moment, but the key question is will they make money in the future? To do this, we need to attract developers (even freeware & shareware developers).
To attract developers Amiga Inc are going to have to sell a lot of machines. I have already written at length why I think they can't sell lots of machines given the route that Amiga Inc have chosen.
We all want to see lots of new software development, especially from the freeware/shareware guys, we just need to consider taking a route to make this happen.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 80 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 12:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (windtalkers):
>Nothing to do with Microsoft, but with the fact that people don't buy SW for
>Linux as they are already running Windows and most likely already have the
>same software. And this is the fear Hyperion has of an x86 AmigaOS, and rightly
>so. It would make no sense in porting Windows games to AmigaOS
People won't buy software for AmigaOS/PPC either. Why? Because not enough will have sold to make it viable for anybody to develop on. You disagree? Then tell me who is going to buy tens, if not hundreds of thousands of units of AmigaOne hardware to make it a viable platform to develop for?
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 81 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by smithy on 08-Nov-2001 12:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 76 (Vidar Langberget):
>Why should a custom x86 box have to be expensive?
Custom x86 hardware is as bad as PPC hardware. I am not necessarily pro-x86, I am pro-common/standard-hardware.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 82 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Graham on 08-Nov-2001 13:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (smithy):
Yes, custom hardware == expensive hardware.
bPlan at least are using common hardware (the southbridge being a standard x86 chipset southbridge).
The AmigaOne has a custom chipset, for no other reason than to incorporate the A1200 interface onto the motherboard, when it would be better placed on a PCI card.
We will see what the outcome is when both hardware platforms are released.
An x86 solution would use standard x86 chipset parts throughout. In fact, it would be a standard x86 motherboard ($100) with different stuff on the BIOS flash ROM.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 83 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam on 08-Nov-2001 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Fabio Alemagna):
@fabio
i think u are looking on negative side of things..
your expectations are too high, how can hyperion a company with 10 programmers
claim to compete against microsoft the biggest company in the world and all
the games developers developing for it..
they are wise to say what they believe and it makes sense to me.
it is about the amiga spirit.. that includes ppc
if you want amiga you buy pegaos/amigaone/tsunumi when they come out. all this
talk of x86 is blah people trying to take an easy way out with emulators..
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 84 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Nov-2001 13:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (adam):
> i think u are looking on negative side of things..
Well, I think I'm looking at facts...
> your expectations are too high, how can hyperion a company with 10 programmers
> claim to compete against microsoft the biggest company in the world and all
> the games developers developing for it..
I'm not expecting anything like that, at all. I *know* that they cannot compete, but saying it so quietly sounds unwise to me. I mean, if I told you "Look, here you have my game and it costs 50, there you have the same game, it works better and costs 5", what do you do? There are two things you can do: you can say "ok then, obviously I don't chose yours, as it's evidently inferior to the other one" or you can say "well, doesn't matter if your is inferior, I want to buy it anyway because I'm part of this community and I don't want/cannot betray it. It's about spirit, etc...".
Now, if Hyperion is still producing SW for amiga it's mainly due to people that use to answer the second way, and those people will stick ALWAYS and FOREVER with AmigaOS, wherever it goes, because otherwise they would have gone away ages ago.
I think that the amiga community is mainly populated of fanatics... I'm sorry to say that, guys, but this is the impression that I get. I get also the impression that Hyperion wants to keep your eyes closed, so that you cannot see the "better" world outside. Puzzling is, thoygh, that they are pratically ADMITTING that yes, that's their strategy... I don't know if they realize this...
Fabio Alemagna
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 85 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Richie on 08-Nov-2001 13:32 GMT
Who split the amiga market?
Moto-rat-ola, that's who!
If you could buy a 750MHz 080 right now this discussion would be a moot point.
Now peeps actually want to buy product from them.
Very strange indeed.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 86 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 08-Nov-2001 13:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Kay Are Ulvestad):
Ok, you are wrong about UAE.
UAE is a great alternative to a native AmigaOS -> cuz it doesn't need repairs and you can reignite the environment you enjoyed on your broken down Amiga, without buying a new one that will be useless for AmigaOS 4.x
Another thing: they don't buy apps you say? I bought IBrowse 2 for my UAE, even bought it online WITH UAE. I also started developing a platform game on UAE, cuz I could finally use ECS again (my Amiga didn't allow me that, since I used CV64).
Please, all I want is some peace to use an Amigaish OS and get productive. The Amiga environment doesn't have to be called "AmigaOS" - and if I get the environment (CLI, RamDisk, Workbench, etc..) I can use the most productive environment I ever used.
Arguments that are outdated for AmigaOS 68k:
* Multitasking
It is not a luxury anymore, and all the AmigaOS clones support it
* Boot up your work on a floppy disk you make and see it go!
AROS lets you do this now, on x86 even :-) I don't think it will be
possible to format an AOS4 disk and boot it without having os4 installed. I don't think it is possible with morph either, or windows. Correct me if I'm wrong.
* Small system
AROS
* Nice apps
Many of the original _great_ Amiga Apps are now on PC - Linux has Realsoft 4D, Windows too, Pagestream is on Mac and Windows, DPaint is still used on DOS, and a new proggie, called Pro Motion (DPaint clone) is exclusively on Windows. I don't need to go on, you all know it.
* Blablabla
I don't know why I am bothering. But it irretates me that the few fanatics still in honor of the Amiga Inc. vision goes on about PPC, and x86 being evil. It is bound to fail if AmigaOS goes PPC only. The guys we quarraled with when RISC was introduced in 1996. I remember. P5 was going to bring this to Amiga. People laughted at me. No use getting bitter, and I know they were right now.
Please open your eyes.
Perhaps we _should_ make a MNN.lu or even AROSNN.lu
AmigaOS is going down the drain, and I won't sink with the ship. I won't be stupid and let the rest of the world leave me with competance on a system no employer needs, and with a system I can't afford(!).
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 87 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by dark ness on 08-Nov-2001 13:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (Fabio Alemagna):
/*
[...] so that you cannot see the "better" world outside [...]
*/
ah, ah, ah, ah.... :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 88 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Fabio Alemagna):
>If you're afraid that AmigaOS and its application cannot compete with Windows >and its applications then you're basically admitting that AmigaOS and its >applications are inferior to Windows and its applications. the user choses >obviously what's the best for him/her, and if Hyperion says that its products >are inferior to the ones available elsewhere then I believe it and go >elsewhere. Who can know better than Hyperion whether its products are bad >compared to other ones? <g>
>At the end Hyperion is not playing a smart game saying that they cannot >compete against windows... think of it.
I think it is not a problem of application superiority but just the number of application and their features.
We need time on a protected platform to get these applications and time to have more features in these applications. No way to start them on competing on x86.
We also need to have support from dealers. Amiga dealers live of Amiga hardware sale. You won't buy your x86 PC in an Amiga shop that can not compete with PC sellers that sell xxxx PCs a year.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 89 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by dark ness on 08-Nov-2001 14:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (m0ns00n):
/*
[...] with a system I can't afford(!) [...]
*/
but you can afford buying new hardware every month for the pc ?
as I you dont' know the price of the future hardware so wait until the system is on sale. after you can talk.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 90 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam on 08-Nov-2001 14:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (m0ns00n):
>AROS lets you do this now, on x86 even :-)
what are u talking about? AROS dosn't even have a WB. just cli so no apps..!
>Windows too, Pagestream is on Mac and Windows, DPaint is still used on DOS, and >a new proggie, called Pro Motion (DPaint clone) is exclusively on Windows.
so? but they are still apps on ppc amiga and new ones like motion studio etc.
>I don't know why I am bothering. But it irretates me that the few fanatics >still in honor of the Amiga Inc. vision goes on about PPC, and x86 being evil. >It is bound to fail if AmigaOS goes PPC only
x86 is not evil but is not amiga. it's simple.. as for your last statement please provide some details 1
>AmigaOS is going down the drain, and I won't sink with the ship. I won't be >stupid and let the rest of the world leave me with competance on a system no >employer needs, and with a system I can't afford(!).
pegaos can run linux.. ppc will come down in price thanks to ibm competition.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 91 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam on 08-Nov-2001 14:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 84 (Fabio Alemagna):
@fabio
<I think that the amiga community is mainly populated of fanatics... I'm sorry <to say that, guys
well what are you doing here then? unless... you are one of these fanatics! :P
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 92 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 08-Nov-2001 14:11 GMT
Just to say that:
Most of Amiga developers, dealers agree that going to x86 for AmigaOS 4.0 on custom (I mean not Apple) PPC hardware.
If AmigaOS goes x86 I can close my Amiga shop and won't distribute Amiga software. I can not compete selling PCs, These last 4 years we saw plenty of PC shops opening and closing in our street. This is because they can not compete with big PC shops that import directly masses of PCs from asia.
If we sell PPC harware we can live and promote Amiga software and even take part in some software development investment.
I understand that all of those wo bought a PC does not like these statements but this is the reality.
This is the ONLY subject where you will have Hyperion, H&P, ELBOX, Titan, Morphos, Bplan, ... and all company still doing Amiga hardware/software agree.
AmigaDE or something similar is surely the way to go multiplatform (and find better price / performance hardware than x86 ;) ) but it is not ready as a desktop OS right now.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 93 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Nov-2001 14:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Christophe Decanini):
Chris, that kind of strategy can work only in two situation: either you have the monopoly of the IT market, so that you can FORCE people to not buy other kind of computers, or you target your product mainly to fanatics that will never even think about chosing something different. In both cases it's plain clear to me that it's an ill strategy. I mean: if I want AmigaOS then I buy it, if I don't want it then I don't buy it. That's all...
I could agree with you id AmigaOs were free, but since to use it you have to BUY it, then it means that if you BUY it you are WILLING to use it. It means that the competition has been already WON by the producer of the product you're buying.
Heck, it's so simple...
Fabio Alemagna
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 94 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 08-Nov-2001 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 86 (m0ns00n):
I think I get it now.
* Amiga Inc. DON'T CARE about productivity. They care about DOLLARS!
* Amiga Developers DON'T CARE if you are productive, they just want to force you to BUY
* Selling SOFTWARE is the only thing people in the computer biz live off, not selling their productivity (Webdesign, Art, Service, blablablabla) *sarcasm*
The priests who are left on AmigaOS are Softwaredevelopers afraid to be left out in the cold. Sorry
Linux is successful, not because it sells so much software, but because users can DO SO MUCH WITH LINUX SOFTWARE!!!!!!!!!! And their doing gives them money - productivity is the key, and IT attracts markets, IT attracts users.
Sorry, Amiga R.I.P.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 95 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 08-Nov-2001 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 89 (dark ness):
The PII 500mhz I bought in 1999 suits me fine thank you very much. And I am very productive on it too.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 96 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 08-Nov-2001 14:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (Christophe Decanini):
>If AmigaOS goes x86 I can close my Amiga shop and won't distribute Amiga software. I can not compete selling PCs, These last 4 years we saw plenty of PC shops opening and closing in our street.
-
POOR YOU! This is the real world, and I'm not going to buy Amiga stuff to be *NICE* to you. I have my own echonomy to care for!
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 97 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by adam on 08-Nov-2001 14:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 95 (m0ns00n):
>The PII 500mhz I bought in 1999 suits me fine thank you very much. And I am >very productive on it too.
i bouth PII in 1998 but so what? i would be prepared to buy
bplan/merlancia computer if
- good apps like motionstudio etc
- could run linuxppc as well..
- back to amiga community why not?
however if hyperion and morph continue infighting then not worth it..
all i will have to say, sorry guys but i'm going to piss elsewhere...
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 98 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by m0ns00n on 08-Nov-2001 14:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (adam):
Sorry that should be PIII 500mhz, but it really doesn't matter. And motion studio? I don't need it. You can get that stuff on any platform. AmigaOS is just not worth it.
And as for the Amiga community?!?
Most the people, _MOST_ the people I recon as part of the real Amiga community is living "the spirit" out on other platforms. The people who is left on the Amiga platform are mostly not worthy of such an honor. All they do is complain and fight and play arrogant techheads, in the real world, living out their lives cluelessly blind.
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 99 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht [darklite] on 08-Nov-2001 14:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (wouter):
>Ha Ben, are you belgian?
>As an amiga owner since 1986, i'm more than happy to meet you in Leuven and
>discuss your "anti x86" attitude :)
What about an Amiga meeting in Leuven? :)
Interview with Ben Hermans from Hyperion : Comment 100 of 194ANN.lu
Posted by Brecht on 08-Nov-2001 14:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Graham):
My first real C project I'm currently working on is a 'task manager' for AmigaOS, and it's not a start menu clone. Intuition badly needs a 'hide' flag for windows, as I think you need to pull some ugly hacks to achive it.
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