28-Apr-2024 13:07 GMT.		 UNDER CONSTRUCTION
Anonymous, there are 211 items in your selection (but only 61 shown due to limitation) [1 - 50] [51 - 100] [101 - 150] [151 - 200] [201 - 211]
[News] OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions?ANN.lu
Posted on 09-Apr-2002 14:29 GMT by Christian Kemp211 comments
View flat
View list
catohagen points to this article: OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 151 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 04:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Alkemyst):
He did, on the other hand, state that "The PPC is one of the most popular CPU's for embedded systems" which is incorrect. Furthermore, the x86 is hardly obscure as most people with a PC knows what kind of CPU is in it, whereas people using e.g. game consoles are _probably_ less familiar with what kind of CPU is in their "play stations" (pardon the pun).
How many of you can name of the top of your head what CPU/CPUs was/were used
in the following game consoles?
NES
SNES
N64
Game Cube <- Ben mentioned it.
Sega Megadrive/Genesis
Sega 32x
Sega Saturn
Sega Dreamcast
Playstation
Playstation 2
XboX <- This one should be easy.
CD32 <- This one should be VERY easy (shame on you if you don't know it).
My point is that whereas there are far more embedded processors than PCs with x86 CPUs , most consumers don't know/care what kind of CPU is embedded. Saying that the x86 is obscure (or more correctly "obscure" as Ben put it) seems a bit farfetched to be honest. Less used than embedded CPUs? Yes. Less used than PPCs? Uncertain. Less known than PPC or other CPUs in general? Hell no!
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 152 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by NeRP on 12-Apr-2002 04:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (Solar):
Shuttup, you tard. AmigaOS does not need dual boot. If you need an
x86 machine, then buy that too. If you can't have both, make your
choice and shutup. What if you *and* your wife both need a car?
Should it split in half like the gadgetmobile just to make you happy?
I don't give a shit about the *SMALL* amount of money for the
AmigaOne. The way you idiots act.... no one should be happy with a
Porche, because someone sells McLarens out there. 600mhz G3 will be
able to run *any* software out there, currently made, and currently
available in the PC market as well. Sure, it might lose in a
benchmark vs ______ <== (insert favorite processor here) but really,
it doesn't matter that freakin much. If you x86 people are not
willing to ante up and buy AmigaONE, then we don't need you anyway.
It's better having 2 machines anyway, for when the windows box
shitcans itself
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 153 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 05:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (smithy):
*sigh* I knew this was going to happen...
>>However, that option would most definitly kill what's left of the already
>>nearly extinct Amiga hardware market.Eyetech, Merlancia, Elbox or DCE would
>>hardly survive competing with IBM, Compaq or Fujitsu (for example), don't you
>>think?
>But doesn't the AmigaOne have industry standard PCI and AGP slots? Why doesn't
>your argument cover Amiga graphics card manufacturers when they'll have to
>compete with nVidia & ATI?
There are no Amiga graphics card manufacturers left on the Amiga market worth mentioning.
>Anyway, as an AmigaOS fan my loyalty is not to any company, it is to AmigaOS.
>In IT you have to adapt to survive, businesses don't rely on customer's
>charity for their survival.
That's not the issue here. The issue is wether it's even possible to make a business of an x86 AmigaOS4. Believe me, I do NOT think the charity of the Amiga community will make the AmigaOS survive and that's why think we wouldn't stand a chance against the competition on the x86 market.
>>Then we have the pre-installed OS issue. I don't see any major x86
>>manufacturer wanting to have AmigaOS pre-installed on their hardware instead
>>of Windows.
>No, but the same is true for Linux. And it hasn't harmed Linux because the
>average consumer isn't interested in it. Same for AmigaOS - the average
>consumer isn't interested. Only computing-fans are interested. Linux has a
>high street presence, so did BeOS. Why? Because they ran on mainstream
>hardware and could sell enough to make money for the retailors. With
>AmigaOS/x86 both the hardware and the operating system can be sold on the high
>street, with AmigaOne/PPC, it is unlikely that either will be sold in high
>street chains. Certainly not in the UK's number 1 PC chain, PC World, because
>they only sell software that runs on PCs.
1. Linux is not a business, how could it possibly be harmed by the competition?
2. AmigaOS needs ALOT more interested users than its the current userbase in order to be profitable.
3. Why is Be Inc suing Microsoft again? URL: http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/24134.html
>>It would be pretty much doing business suicide these days. So, we would have a
>>software platform without corporate hardware support at all.
>And this is bad because?
Again, check out http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/24134.html
>>That means that a consumer must reformat his harddrive, buy the AmigaOS
>>seperately and install it himself just in order to be able to use it,
>Like I said, consumers aren't interested in AmigaOS. Only computing
>enthusiasts are. They do the same to install other alternative operating
>systems, in fact, I'd bet they'd prefer doing that than having a seperate
>piece of hardware for each OS.
Amiga Inc is still a business company which needs profit in order to survive. How could the enthusiasts of the Amiga community possibly be profitable?
>>which means we will have to provide a really good reason to the consumer for
>>choosing AmigaOS over Windows. That's one battle the AmigaOS won't win for a
>>very long time to come yet. The AmigaOS5? Perhaps. The AmigaOS4.x series?
>>Forget it.
>They don't have to choose with AmigaOS/x86 (they can have both), but with
>AmigaOne/PPC they do have to choose.
Exactly. When put up against the rest of the x86 world, the AmigaOS doesn't have much to show for. So, giving the user that option isn't benefitial.
>>Just face it, the AmigaOS might run on the x86 one day (AmigaOS5 has been >>said to be available for the x86 as well when that time comes)
>Who said that? Find me the webpage where it says that.
I can't. It was a letter from Bill McEwan that was posted on Amiga.org which confirmed that the AmigaOS5 is *intended* to be available to the x86 as well. That article isn't there anymore for quite obvious reasons...
>>Sure, the AmigaOne is far from beeing as cheap and fast as the x86 but it's
>>cheaper and tremendously much faster than what the Amiga market has to offer
>>today so I don't think we'll see the real Amiga hardware owners complain.
>You mean we won't see the shrinking band of elitists complain. The rest of the
>world will just move on.
Yep. The rest of the world which simply wouldn't choose AmigaOS over Windows regardless if it is capable of running on their machine or not.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 154 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 05:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (NeRP):
NeRP, you don't get it.
> AmigaOS does not need dual boot.
I need a word processor able to read and write Word documents without mangling them. I need a mail client that can process meeting requests. I need a 1.4EE Java development environment.
I will not go on any further, because those three points would require me to dual-boot at the time being (that includes OS 4.0 / MorphOS), period.
> If you need an x86 machine, then buy that too.
The point is I *have* a x86 machine, why should I need Amiga hardware? And that's not just me.
> If you can't have both, make your choice and shutup.
Now you get close to the point without realizing the implications. Yes, people will make their choice and shut up. And Amiga will be forgotten. I am *not* shutting up because I want Amiga to *succeed*, because I don't like the computing world as it is.
> I don't give a shit about the *SMALL* amount of money for
> the AmigaOne.
You're kidding, right? Listen, the x86 is the system people *need*, the Amiga the system people *might* play around with. But that "small" amount of money you mention will keep them away.
> 600mhz G3 will be able to run *any* software out there, currently
> made, and currently available in the PC market as well.
Hell-o! That 600 MHz G3 is worth s*** because it doesn't run *anything* from the list I presented above (expect if I dual-boot into LinuxPPC, and didn't you say that dual booting is evil?).
Benchmarks don't matter. Probably even availability of the hardware doesn't matter. But the price tag, and the ridiculous set of available hardware does matter.
> If you x86 people are not willing to ante up and buy AmigaONE,
> then we don't need you anyway.
Little do you realize. You desperately need every f***ing user and developer you can get for AmigaOS to survive. Why do you insist on making it so difficult for them?
> It's better having 2 machines anyway, for when the windows box
> shitcans itself
If that happens (and it hasn't, in fact my x86 systems give me less trouble than my Amiga ever has), I'll have to buy a new one anyways *because the Amiga does not run the software required to do the work*.
I (and many others) would like to change that with our development work. But, as you did put it so nicely, you don't need us anyways...
As always, it boils down to this:
You say, software will come, subsequently attracting more users.
I say, without more users, no software will come.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 155 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 06:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 145 (darklite):
>>However, that option would most definitly kill what's left of
>>the already nearly extinct Amiga hardware market. Eyetech, Merlancia, Elbox
>>or DCE would hardly survive competing with IBM, Compaq or Fujitsu (for
>>example), don't you think?
>Though luck. If they're talented enough, they could even design PCI/AGP cards,
>and earn loads more than currently.
How could they possibly compete with huge motherboard manufacturers like ASUS or find better corporate deals with suppliers like the ones Compaq has for their hardware components? Face it, they would be gone in a split second.
>Why wouldn't Amiga delears be able to build x86 systems with AmigaOS pre-
>installed? Softhut is doing it right now with Amithlon. It's not like you can
>buy your AmigaOne from any PC dealer, so I can't spot the difference between a
>PPC or an x86 Amiga - except that more advanced users can choose what
>motherboard they want.
Sure. Then look at their prices and compare with your favorite PC dealer...
>But noone is saying there shouldn't be a PPC version of AmigaOS.
Nobody isn't saying that there *won't* be an x86 version of AmigaOS in the future either.
>Because of dual-booting, people wouldn't have to choose between Windows and
>AmigaOS, they can run both on one machine. Alot of people need a Windows box.
>With a PPC Amiga they need to buy an additional x86 system. Do the maths.
Again, that is something only the enthusiasts would do which won't bring food to the tables of Amiga Inc.
>>Just face it, the AmigaOS might run on the x86 one day (AmigaOS5 has been
>>said to be available for the x86 as well when that time comes) but it's
>I wouldn't be so sure about OS5 being able to run on x86... I have yet to see
>an official confirmation of this (statements of mr McEwen from before
>replacing the plan don't count).
Again, this was confirmed by a letter from Bill McEwan himself once, but I'm not going to argue. You'll believe whatever you want to believe anyway.
>Looking at the fact that they changed their plans a number of times and are a
>year behind schedule on, well, everything I don't think it's a good idea
>waiting for Amiga Inc. to save AmigaOS.
No, I'm waiting for Hyperion to save the near future of AmigaOS. What the future beyond that holds is too far away for simply waiting so, I'm not holding my breath.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 156 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 06:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 154 (Solar):
"You say, software will come, subsequently attracting more users.
I say, without more users, no software will come."
But does going x86 really mean more users?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 157 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 06:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 156 (Samface):
Looking at it from the PPC perspective. Why have people left the Amiga over the years, and why?
- because they lost interest. Won't come back for Pegasos/AmigaOne.
- because requirements (games, work) exceeded what AmigaOS could do. Won't come back until better software is available.
- because they could no longer make money in the Amiga market. Won't come back until market grows.
- others...?
Now let's look at it from the x86 perspective. What kind of people would give a x86 supporting AmigaOS a try, but not a Pegasos/AmigaOne?
- those really interested in supporting AmigaOS but not confident enough to make a >1000 Euro investment,
- those who would like to give it a try out of curiosity (you don't spend >1000 Euro out of curiosity...),
- those that get a pirate copy from somewhere.
One word on the last group - yes it will happen. No it won't happen with custom hardware. But do you really want to pay that much for a *dongle*?
And don't you think that some of those - let's say 1 out of 10,000 - might actually become a valuable "member of the community" later on? (Now beware and remember *your* early days...)
Now do a quick math and find out how many x86 users out there will give a x86 supporting AmigaOS a try, either because it's cheap or because it's pirated, then apply a ratio of 1:10,000 or something to find out the number of those getting *really* involved (buying / developing software).
And compare that with the number of people that fall under the category "others..." at the top of my post, plus "hardcore" Amigians switching from 68k/PPC right to Pegasos / AmigaOne. Then, apply a ratio of 1:10 or 1:100 for the number of those getting *really* involved (or having money left after buying the hardware)...
I can't give a clean "yes" or "no" to your answer, Samface. But I know that a x86 supporting AmigaOS will be able to survive even if b-plan and Eyetech bite the dust. And don't tell me that is a far-fetched possibility...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 158 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 07:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (NeRP):
"600mhz G3 will be able to run *any* software out there, currently made, and currently available in the PC market as well."
Uhm...yeah...you're of course thinking about emulating x86 and 68k. But since you said "*any* software out there" I'm sure you've got emulators for SH1 through SH4, MIPS, Alpha, ARM, StrongARM, SPARC, UltraSPARC, ColdFire etc in absurdum.
*SIGH* Some clearly type before they think...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 159 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 07:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 152 (NeRP):
Oh, shit didn't notice it was the lamer Shawn and his seven dwarf personalities. Ignore my previous comment, it's way beyond your mental capabilities anyway.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 160 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 07:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 154 (Solar):
Like a wise man once said, "Lost effort", Solar...;-)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 161 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 07:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Solar):
Damn it Solar, you should know better than that! :-) In the eyes of too many ANNers you've just sent the Jolly Roger up the flag pole - better prepared to get flamed by the illiterate...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 162 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Wittgenstein on 12-Apr-2002 07:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Vidar):
>>It's also about having a CPU family which has a clear upgrade path to 64bit with the ability to run 32 bit code at native
>>speed (G5).
> The Hammer family will offer the same, but most likely at higher speeds and lower price.
But what use do we have of runing 32 bit x86 code? It is the 32 bit PPC code we want to run.
>According to the last leaked reports about G5, Apple/Motorola are struggling to achieve sufficient yields at 1.6GHz. And
>that's on a 0.13 micron process. The Hammer will probably launch at 2 - 2.4 GHz on a 0.13 micron process. I fail to see
>what will make the G5 so much faster than the Hammer on a clock for clock basis (Rememeber that the Hammer will be at
>least 20-25% faster than the Athlon at the same clock speed).
Well, I dont know what "leaked reports" you talk about, but almost everything that has slipped out about the G5 (or is it called G6 now? Some ppl sais that MOT has renamed PPC8500 to G6 and G5 is now the PPC7500) has been positive. The Hammer is more vapor than the G5 and it has only been shown once (correct me if I am wrong).
You also mentions that the Hammer is 20% - 25% faster than Athlon, but this figure is totally unimportant, because 64bit x86 is almost like a new platform. The price per performance of the the 64 bit x86 chip when running 32 bits code will be very poor (because that the complexity of the wirering increases with a factor 2) so only 64 bits code will be relevant.
The big advantage of the PPC8500 is that it will execute 32 bits ppc code faster than the 7500 and it will reach clockspeed to atleast 3.5 GHz +- 0.5 GHz, while the 7500 only will reach about 1.5 Ghz and it will almost surely beat all the other PPC processors in speed and price per performance.
/
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 163 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 12-Apr-2002 07:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 149 (Lennart Fridén):
Ofcourse is isn't correct. Darklite knows nothing about the subject he talks about.
He has no hard fact about market shares, performance points, architectural drawbacks and benefits etc.
That information is all out there for anyone to find but unfortunately it's far easier to spout unfounded and misguided nonsense on websites than it is to actually do research.
" Uhm, actually they do. I've found G2 CPU cores in a number of Motorola embedded processors and microcontrollers. If you had set your range from G3-G5 you might've been correct (note, _might_), now you're not."
If you would kept up, you would certainly know that the Gamecube uses a G3 derivative and that Cisco uses PPC 7455 in some of its routers.
Take a look here for example:
(About the latest G4+)
Highlighting Motorola's continued innovation and performance leadership in the high-performance embedded processor market, the MPC7455 was named 2001 EMBEDDED PROCESSOR OF THE YEAR by In-Stat/MDR, a leading microprocessor research and analysis firm which publishes Microprocessor Report.
http://e-www.motorola.com/webapp/sps/site/prod_summary.jsp?code=MPC7455&nodeId=03M943030450467M98653
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 164 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 12-Apr-2002 07:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 163 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>Ofcourse is isn't correct. Darklite knows nothing about the subject he talks
>about.
Ben, if G1-G5 CPU's are used so widely, why can't they keep up with the x86 processors in both price and performance? Again, you are avoiding the point. PRICE/PERFORMANCE/AVAILABILITY MATTERS. That my toilet-brush uses a PPC DOESN'T MATTER.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 165 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 07:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 161 (Lennart Fridén):
> In the eyes of too many ANNers you've just sent the Jolly Roger
> up the flag pole - better prepared to get flamed by the illiterate...
I have been flying the Jolly Roger for years now... ;-)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 166 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 07:44 GMT
...and on second thought, about three months ago I added the red burgee: No prisioners... :-D
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 167 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Wittgenstein on 12-Apr-2002 07:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 164 (darklite):
>Ofcourse is isn't correct. Darklite knows nothing about the subject he talks
>about.
>Ben, if G1-G5 CPU's are used so widely, why can't they keep up with the x86 processors in both price and performance?
>Again, you are avoiding the point. PRICE/PERFORMANCE/AVAILABILITY MATTERS. That my toilet-brush uses a
>PPC DOESN'T MATTER.
It is very naive to put equallity between performance and the ability to crunch numbers. The main issue in many embedded applications is the power consumption which is one of the PPC's strongest sides. The PPC's aimed at desktops isnt MOT's main area, which explains why they doesnt make the same effort to bring out fast CPUs as the x86 companies does. If you look at the embedded market, which is the main focus of MOT, there isnt any great problems with availability.
Please, before you shout out loud, go and look for yourself! www.mot.com is a good place to start!
/
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 168 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C on 12-Apr-2002 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 164 (darklite):
For those of you who have the "Amiga must run on x86" disposition.
It isn't going to happen, get over it, or go away forever. Truth is I
would wager that most Amigans are more than happy about the choice of
PPC CPU. I know I am. So what if it isn't state of the art? It's good
enough for me and for the good folk at the Register. remember their
"want one" quote?
If you really want Amiga on an x86 then join the AROS effort. The rest
of us will stick with the PPC path and sail off in the other
direction. Whether it works or not is immaterial, we are going along
for the ride anyway.
So to Darklite and the rest, thank you for your x86 advocacy, but
the majority of Amiga users don't want the x86 route, so I guess
this is goodbye. Enjoy using your x86 running windows and Linux.
The rest of us will continue using non "industry standard" software
and hardware.
As to the MS Word etc, compatibility, well, who really cares? I have a
PC laptop sitting here gatherig dust for those sort of tasks.
The majority of the time, including now, I am happy using the Amiga.
Cheerio.
Mikey C
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 169 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 12-Apr-2002 08:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 167 (Wittgenstein):
>It is very naive to put equallity between performance and the ability to crunch
>numbers.
Fact: the x86 offers a much higher price/performance ratio.
>The main issue in many embedded applications is the power consumption
>which is one of the PPC's strongest sides. The PPC's aimed at desktops isnt
>MOT's main area, which explains why they doesnt make the same effort to bring
>out fast CPUs as the x86 companies does.
But AmigaOS is a desktop OS. Don't you get it? Noone asks about power consumptions when buying a desktop computer.
If, like you say, Motorola isn't very interested in the desktop PowerPC's, how will this benefit the Amiga?
>If you look at the embedded market, which is the main focus of MOT, there isnt
>any great problems with availability.
And yes there are problems with availability. I will be able to buy the AmigaOne or Pegasos only from a handful of dealers.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 170 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 12-Apr-2002 08:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 168 (Mikey C):
>It isn't going to happen, get over it, or go away forever. Truth is I
>would wager that most Amigans are more than happy about the choice of
>PPC CPU. I know I am.
What about possible new users? A percentage of the current PPC Amiga userbase isn't going to save the Amiga market.
>So what if it isn't state of the art? It's good enough for me and for the good
>folk at the Register. remember their "want one" quote?
First you guys tried to convince us PPC was the way to go because they were technically superior, and now you're admitting they cannot compete with x86?
You're basically saying PPC offers absolutely *no* advantages over x86, so I must conclude it all comes down to it being an elitist thing.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 171 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 12-Apr-2002 08:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 170 (darklite):
Brecht/Darklite: stop putting words in people's mouths.
Besides, I guess those 4 million people who buy Apple computers each year are all morons right?
The PPC architecture presents several advantages to us:
- unrivaled SIMD engine (Altivec) which overpowers anything the x86 can offer (including SSE2 which can't even be used in parallel with the FPU).
It already does that today despite a Mhz "handicap" of around 1 Ghz depending on your CPU of reference (P4 or AMD).
We have reliable information from insiders that the G5 will soundly turn the tables again.
Seeing as the Amiga was always considered a multi-media machine, we will have the ability to make it shine again.
- a CPU architecture which is much better suited for emulating 68K code than a little endian CPU. Hardly surprising if one considers that Motorola had a had in designing both.
- Low power consumption which allows PPC hardware to be used in "homeserver" type devices which is where Amiga intends to position OS 4.x and OS 5 together with AmigaDE.
- Clear migration path to 64 bit with full backwards compatibility and no design compromises.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 172 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 08:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 157 (Solar):
>Looking at it from the PPC perspective. Why have people left the Amiga over
>the years, and why?
>- because they lost interest. Won't come back for Pegasos/AmigaOne.
I'm not so sure about that, I've seen positive response of the A1 from several people who left the Amiga years ago which lost interest but got it back now.
>- because requirements (games, work) exceeded what AmigaOS could do. Won't come back until better software is available.
The Amiga never was big in the home office business in the first place.
>- because they could no longer make money in the Amiga market. Won't come back
>until market grows.
The chances of making a market is bigger if you create a niche market on it's own instead of trespassing M$ territory, if you ask me. The original idea behind the very first Amiga was to create a cheaper but just as powerful alternative to the Mac, it's basicly the same thing we're doing again. It's a concept which has been proven to work before and could very well work again. :-)
>- others...?
No. Forget about the others. Only the Amiga enthusiasts would dual boot AmigaOS with Windows.
>Now let's look at it from the x86 perspective. What kind of people would give
>a x86 supporting AmigaOS a try, but not a Pegasos/AmigaOne?
>- those really interested in supporting AmigaOS but not confident enough to
>make a >1000 Euro investment,
Yes, a few lads perhaps. My income (which is NOT big) would probably cover buying those guys a pint of beer each to perhaps cheer them up a bit. ;-)
>- those who would like to give it a try out of curiosity (you don't spend
>>1000 Euro out of curiosity...),
I wonder how computers and game consoles can sell in the first place...
>- those that get a pirate copy from somewhere.
Aaaahh.. yes... Pirating. Very tempting option when trying out a completely new OS.
>One word on the last group - yes it will happen. No it won't happen with
>custom hardware. But do you really want to pay that much for a *dongle*?
Stop talking about the A1 as being soooooo expensive. It's actually the cheapest PPC mobo available today. I don't think a Mac user thinks of it as that expensive, you know. Also, you keep comparing it with PC's but you forget that the Amiga isn't a PC and not intended to compete with the PC either. It's not for office use, it's not for Windows, it's an entirely different machine for an entirely different purpose. It's like saying that since you have to use a PC for doing work at home, your breakfast cereal has to be served through it as well. It doesn't make sense. The AmigaOne is for Amiga enthusiasts and/or people interested in alternative platforms. Creating this niche market outside the mainstream will give us a greater chance of actually growing than trying to satisfy the little bunch of people who wants to save some cash on dual booting.
>And don't you think that some of those - let's say 1 out of 10,000 - might
>actually become a valuable "member of the community" later on? (Now beware and
>remember *your* early days...)
Yes, the early days. The days when the Amiga was looked upon as the cheap but just as powerful alternative to the Mac. What's your problem with the A1, again? :-P
>Now do a quick math and find out how many x86 users out there will give a x86
>supporting AmigaOS a try, either because it's cheap or because it's pirated,
>then apply a ratio of 1:10,000 or something to find out the number of those
>getting *really* involved (buying / developing software).
Don't underestimate the people willing to buy alternative hardware. There's nothing more odd about buying an A1 than a Playstation2, for example. (I'm not saying that the Amiga is a games console.) I own a x86 machine, an Amiga, and a PS2. I'll probably buy an A1 as well. Am I rich? No. I just have different interests for different machines and I'm prepared to pay for it. Am I alone with this kind of interests? Most definitly not.
>And compare that with the number of people that fall under the
>category "others..." at the top of my post, plus "hardcore" Amigians switching
>from 68k/PPC right to Pegasos / AmigaOne. Then, apply a ratio of 1:10 or 1:100
>for the number of those getting *really* involved (or having money left after
>buying the hardware)...
Only the enthusiasts would dual boot AmigaOS with Windows but as the AmigaOS lacks the features in order to impress anyone at all, their interest would probably fade sooner or later anyway. I think it would be better to "update" or completely rewrite the AmigaOS from scratch before letting it on to the x86 platform.
>I can't give a clean "yes" or "no" to your answer, Samface. But I know that a
>x86 supporting AmigaOS will be able to survive even if b-plan and Eyetech bite
>the dust. And don't tell me that is a far-fetched possibility...
The AmigaOS, yes. The Amiga market, no. We would be stuck with a dead OS, basicly. Kind of like the BeOS community is today. That's the problem about beeing a business. I wouldn't suggest the AmigaOS for the x86 today unless it would be made open source, which isn't likely to happen in within the next 5-10 years or so. :-/
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 173 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 09:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Samface):
"I wouldn't suggest the AmigaOS for the x86 today unless it would be made open source, which isn't likely to happen in within the next 5-10 years or so. :-/"
...and that's why AROS is a Good Thing (TM)...;-)
(Uhm, Sol, Samface, hit me for making shameless plugs for other projects...:-D)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 174 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 12-Apr-2002 09:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Samface):
>Don't underestimate the people willing to buy alternative hardware. There's
>nothing more odd about buying an A1 than a Playstation2, for example. (I'm not
>saying that the Amiga is a games console.)
What about the fact that the Amiga has next to no software developement, while the PS2 has tons of new software (games)?
>I own a x86 machine, an Amiga, and a PS2. I'll probably buy an A1 as well. Am I
>rich? No. I just have different interests for different machines and I'm prepared
>to pay for it. Am I alone with this kind of interests? Most definitly not.
Of course you're not alone... but do you really think there are enough people to support the Amiga market?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 175 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 09:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Samface):
Instead of typing something lengthy, I make another hopeless attempt at showing you the flaw in your logic...
> Only the enthusiasts would dual boot AmigaOS with Windows but as
> the AmigaOS lacks the features in order to impress anyone at all,
> their interest would probably fade sooner or later anyway.
Either AmigaOS recovers to the point where there are enough features and software titles are available to make it competitive.
Or AmigaOS will wither and die for all practical purposes.
This problem is not related to the underlying hardware.
Fact is, only the enthusiasts will buy a Pegasos / AmigaOS *at* *all*, and many (most?) of them *will* have a second (x86 / Mac) system sitting nearby. They will be dual-booting just the same, just using a different machine.
And the trick with dual-booting is to make it as comfortable to switch to the *less* powerful system as possible, so that users don't have *another* reason for not doing so...
But I know that the arguments pro and contra x86 support in AmigaOS just don't reach the other side, because both sides are convinced the other side is wrong.
And please, don't field MacOS. They have loads of productivity, entertainment, and office software. If you want to compare AmigaOS to anything in the alternative hardware department, compare it to LinuxPPC. It's there. It's available. Does it have lots of software support (*beyond* GIMP, StarOffice (?), and Mozilla)? Hardly. Is it successful? Yes. Is Linux x86 more successful? Yes...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 176 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Jon on 12-Apr-2002 09:33 GMT
In reply to Comment 174 (darklite):
Well, it's sure that you won't stand among them. I sometimes wonder what a guy like you is doing in this kind of a place?
Is the x86 life so boring?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 177 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 12-Apr-2002 09:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 172 (Samface):
>Only the enthusiasts would dual boot AmigaOS with Windows but as the AmigaOS
>lacks the features in order to impress anyone at all, their interest would
>probably fade sooner or later anyway. I think it would be better to "update" or
>completely rewrite the AmigaOS from scratch before letting it on to the x86
>platform.
That is not possible without a good userbase. A PPC AmigaOS is not going to bring us new users.
>The AmigaOS, yes. The Amiga market, no. We would be stuck with a dead OS,
>basicly. Kind of like the BeOS community is today.
BeOS is far more alive than AmigaOS, just look at the presence of the users on the net.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 178 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 09:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Solar):
Methinks that BeOS would be a better comparison, but I agree that Apple is a poor example. Besides, back then had M$ a ~90+% market share? Hell no!
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 179 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 12-Apr-2002 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Solar):
>And please, don't field MacOS. They have loads of productivity, entertainment, >and office software.
What prevents us from trying to get the software support for AmigaOS?
Hyperion already ported more AAA games to AmigaOS than there ever were for Beos, the multimedia OS.
Besides, I fail to see how a x86 AmigaOS is going to magically cure that problem. It certainly didn't for Beos or Linux x86.
Plus, remember iFusion? If people really need to tap into that MacOS market, they can do so at native speeds on their AmigaOne running OS 4 at the same time as MacOS 9.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 180 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 09:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 175 (Solar):
>Either AmigaOS recovers to the point where there are enough features and >software titles are available to make it competitive.
>Or AmigaOS will wither and die for all practical purposes.
>This problem is not related to the underlying hardware.
No, but the "underlying" market.
>Fact is, only the enthusiasts will buy a Pegasos / AmigaOS *at* *all*, and
>many (most?) of them *will* have a second (x86 / Mac) system sitting nearby.
>They will be dual-booting just the same, just using a different machine.
I'm not so sure about that but no point in arguing, only time will tell.
>And the trick with dual-booting is to make it as comfortable to switch to the
>*less* powerful system as possible, so that users don't have *another* reason
>for not doing so...
The AmigaOS in it's current state isn't a product worth marketing in itself at all. As a nich computer which doesn't try competing with the Windows market, then maybe...
>But I know that the arguments pro and contra x86 support in AmigaOS just don't
>reach the other side, because both sides are convinced the other side is
>wrong.
Like any other disagreement, yes.
>And please, don't field MacOS. They have loads of productivity, entertainment,
>and office software. If you want to compare AmigaOS to anything in the
>alternative hardware department, compare it to LinuxPPC. It's there. It's
>available. Does it have lots of software support (*beyond* GIMP, StarOffice
>(?), and Mozilla)? Hardly. Is it successful? Yes. Is Linux x86 more
>successful? Yes...
I was talking about the hardware, the AmigaOne basicly IS a Mac computer without the OS. Also, forget about telling me how successful Linux is on the x86, there's a reason for why I said that only an open sourced (and available for free) AmigaOS would make it on the x86. No commercial alternative to Windows has ever survived on the x86, period. I see no reason for why AmigaOS would be different.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 181 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 09:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 179 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
> Plus, remember iFusion? If people really need to tap into that
> MacOS market, they can do so at native speeds on their AmigaOne
> running OS 4 at the same time as MacOS 9.
Ben, please care to explain how dual-booting / running at the same time of MacOS 9 is any less dangerous (because of the better software support of the *other* OS) than dual-booting Windows.
No, wait, I got it - the market for PPC ports of x86 games is still there with the AmigaOS / MacOS dual-boot...
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 182 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 10:01 GMT
Sol, Sammy, the fun's over. Let it be and get back to work now.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 183 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by McCloud on 12-Apr-2002 10:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 180 (Samface):
>The AmigaOS in it's current state isn't a product worth marketing in itself at
>all. As a nich computer which doesn't try competing with the Windows market,
>then maybe...
But the AmigaOne IS competing with Windows. You have a choice: buy a PC or buy an AmigaOne. That's competition. How is AmigaOne going to beat the PC?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 184 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 182 (Lennart Fridén):
McCloud: Well put.
Lennart: I guess you're right.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 185 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 12-Apr-2002 10:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 183 (McCloud):
*Couldn't let this one go*
A PC and an Amiga aren't mutually exclusive.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 186 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 10:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Solar):
Please, Solar. Let me know how to run the MacOS on the AmigaOne without emulating? The difference is closed and open hardware which makes quite an important difference when it comes to operating systems.
Anyway, back to business, shall we? :-)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 187 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 12-Apr-2002 10:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 181 (Solar):
Solar/Martin
>No, wait, I got it - the market for PPC ports of x86 games is still there with >the AmigaOS / MacOS dual-boot...
That's insulting and so far off the mark. And very sad, because you seem to suffer from the same affliction as Brecht. I already refuted this BS from you time and again.
I also note that you didn't reply to my argument regarding the magical appearances of AmigaOS native apps on a x86 AmigaOS.
Fact of the matter is that 90% of our revenues stemms from MacOS/Linux work and that certainly is not going to go away when there would be a x86 AmigaOS.
But then you know that because I have told you that in private and publically.
That's called either stupidity or bad faith. Take your pick.
I would say that this comment of yours is almost as far off the mark as your dumb "every Windows developer I have talked to wants a write once, run anywhere OS".
Until I pointed out to you that there is already such a thing in the desktop market, it's called "Windows for x86".
Since the desktop platform has nearly completely standarised on Windows and x86, the incentive to move large codebases to a different OS is zero because at best you can capture another 3% of the desktop market.
Fact of the matter is that until you have carved out a very sizeable niche market (and that certainly won't happen over night if at all), software support of large established players will take the form of somebody acquiring a license from them to port their work.
Because they sure as hell are not going to do that themselves regardless of whether you run on x86, PPC or Sparc.
And I know from experience (that you lack completely) that it is FAR easier to convince a company to allow a port to a different CPU architecture than to a x86 based OS.
Reasons?
1. "But it already runs on x86. You just need to boot into Windows".
2. "We're not sure that's a good idea. We're trying to work with MS on this and that project (bundling, joint promotion, endorsements etc.) and you know how MS is when it comes to alternative x86 OSes.".
That's the reality but you can carry on with your fantasies.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 188 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 10:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 183 (McCloud):
Oh, I have a choice: Should I buy a hat or a t-shirt?
If you can't afford buying both the hat and the t-shirt, buy the most important thing for you. Please don't blame the clothes manufacturer for not combining the two into one product at the same price, it just won't happen.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 189 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Wittgenstein on 12-Apr-2002 10:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 169 (darklite):
>>It is very naive to put equallity between performance and the ability to crunch
>>numbers.
>Fact: the x86 offers a much higher price/performance ratio.
It depends on how you define performance. You 'fact' is very subjective and from your point of view you are correct. But that doesnt change the world.
>>The main issue in many embedded applications is the power consumption
>>which is one of the PPC's strongest sides. The PPC's aimed at desktops isnt
>>MOT's main area, which explains why they doesnt make the same effort to bring
>>out fast CPUs as the x86 companies does.
>But AmigaOS is a desktop OS. Don't you get it? Noone asks about power consumptions when buying a desktop computer.
>If, like you say, Motorola isn't very interested in the desktop PowerPC's, how will this benefit the Amiga?
This will benefit Amiga because they choose a modern CPU that will stick around for a very very long time. It may not be the fastest, but I dont think the AmigaOne will attract 'power users' so I dont se that problem. Many ppl just dont care if they have 100 or 150 fps as long as the OS is fast and snappy.
>>If you look at the embedded market, which is the main focus of MOT, there isnt
>>any great problems with availability.
> And yes there are problems with availability. I will be able to buy the AmigaOne or Pegasos only from a handful of dealers.
Do you think the availability would be better if it were a x86 on the motherboard? No, the problem is the size of the Amiga Market.
IF Amiga would make an x86 version of OS4 there would still be availability problems. Where would you buy all you amiga software? Amiga OS? The same place as you buy your Amiga hardware, so it will just as hard to buy the A1 to buy a Amiga software.
/
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 190 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 10:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 187 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Ben, we're back in the same cycle as always.
>> No, wait, I got it - the market for PPC ports of x86 games is still
>> there with >the AmigaOS / MacOS dual-boot...
> That's insulting and so far off the mark. I already refuted this BS
> from you time and again.
By repeating "it's not true", "it's still not true", and "yet again it's not true", I know.
You say that being able to dual-boot into Windows will sap the Amiga market of users and developers because they will tend to always use Windows.
Yet in the post I cited you said that with iFusion, Amiga users could tap into MacOS to get the Software that AmigaOS cannot offer.
I asked you how being able to boot MacOS is different from being able to boot Windows. (MS Office, Internet Explorer, Photoshop, ...)
You failed to answer to that. Luckily (for you), I provided another sentence for you to respond to.
Again, tell me: How is the ability to dual-boot into MacOS less dangerous for the AmigaOS user base than the ability to dual-boot into Windows?
> I also note that you didn't reply to my argument regarding the magical
> appearances of AmigaOS native apps on a x86 AmigaOS.
Not magical. By the legendary "bed room coders" you / Amiga Inc. value so much.
But it seems to be popular opinion that, if a bedroom coder doesn't pay for PPC hardware up front, then "we don't need him anyway"...
> Fact of the matter is that 90% of our revenues stemms from
> MacOS/Linux work
That is not the whole truth and you know it.
> But then you know that because I have told you that in private and
> publically.
> That's called either stupidity or bad faith. Take your pick.
Oh how nice you twist the words.
"How is the ability to dual-boot into MacOS less dangerous for the AmigaOS user base than the ability to dual-boot into Windows?"
I'd really like to hear you replying to that one for a change instead of twisting words.
(And don't give me that "PPC emulates 68k better", or I'll challenge you for a WinUAE / UAE PPC shootout. Besides, isn't the 68k code bound to vanish from AmigaOS anyways?)
> I would say that this comment of yours is almost as far off the mark
> as your dumb "every Windows developer I have talked to wants a write
> once, run anywhere OS".
Those were not my words. I said that I had *no* problems having co-workers - Windows developers - interested in Tao / Amigas "write once, run anywhere" capabilities.
> Until I pointed out to you that there is already such a thing in
> the desktop market, it's called "Windows for x86".
Twisting words again, huh? So we have an OS that runs everything everywhere - Windows. So why are *YOU* doing that AmigaOS nonsense if Windows is so great?
> the incentive to move large codebases to a different OS is zero
> because at best you can capture another 3% of the desktop market.
Hell-o, we're not talking about porting. (Well, at least *I* am not.) We're talking about *creating* a code base for AmigaOS.
> That's the reality but you can carry on with your fantasies.
*Your* reality might be ports. *My* reality is inventions of new software. Ports are invariably just running after the real thing, but never catching up. By definition.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 191 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 10:48 GMT
What am I doing here anyway? I guess I should just shut up, go away, and let you find out the truth on your own.
It's just hard to say "good bye"... (Even if I was blamed being "no real Amigan" more than once...)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 192 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 11:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Solar):
Please, Solar. Don't be so emotional about things, our Amiga interest is only for fun anyway, let's not spoil that, ok? :-)
"How is the ability to dual-boot into MacOS less dangerous for the AmigaOS user base than the ability to dual-boot into Windows?"
Because there's a difference between having access to those evil neccessaties *through* the AmigaOS than the other way around. That puts the AmigaOS in the front seat and supporting it lies within the interest of the developers themselves. Heck, it's not even possible to run the MacOS at all on the AmigaOne without having AmigaOS and a mac emulator installed first. Most importantly, having access to those evil neccessaties without having to use M$ products actually is a feature to most of us.
Also, please note how the Macintosh world tends to be more alternative platform friendly than the Windows world which also makes the Macintosh a prefered choice when having to choose between the two.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 193 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Solar on 12-Apr-2002 11:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 192 (Samface):
Just keeping that old blade sharp and shiny. ;-)
> Because there's a difference between having access to those evil
> neccessaties *through* the AmigaOS than the other way around.
Just in the mind. Technically, it doesn't matter. (Think OS/2...)
> Most importantly, having access to those evil neccessaties without
> having to use M$ products actually is a feature to most of us.
Now, now... Mircosoft and Adobe couldn't care less if you run Word and Photoshop on Windows or MacOS...
> Also, please note how the Macintosh world tends to be more alternative
> platform friendly than the Windows world which also makes the Macintosh
> a prefered choice when having to choose between the two.
Those are mind games. "x86 is evil". It doesn't make any difference for AmigaOS or it's native software base.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 194 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Samface on 12-Apr-2002 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 193 (Solar):
>Just keeping that old blade sharp and shiny. ;-)
You're free to sharpen your blade on my biceps. ;-)
>> Because there's a difference between having access to those evil
>> neccessaties *through* the AmigaOS than the other way around.
>Just in the mind. Technically, it doesn't matter. (Think OS/2...)
Yes it matters. Forcing the user to always have to boot into the Amiga first makes the user prefer using Amiga applications if available instead of doing another boot into MacOS. That's a technical matter which makes an important difference.
>> Most importantly, having access to those evil neccessaties without
>> having to use M$ products actually is a feature to most of us.
>Now, now... Mircosoft and Adobe couldn't care less if you run Word and
>Photoshop on Windows or MacOS...
No, but Microsoft would care if Photoshop wasn't available to Windows which would make the user prefer MacOS.
>> Also, please note how the Macintosh world tends to be more alternative
>> platform friendly than the Windows world which also makes the Macintosh
>> a prefered choice when having to choose between the two.
>Those are mind games. "x86 is evil". It doesn't make any difference for
>AmigaOS or it's native software base.
There's nothing wrong with the x86, it's Windows that is evil. :-P
But surely you must agree that the Amiga userbase pretty much hates everything M$ and that's the userbase we're targeting, x86 owners or not, right? So, curing the problem of beeing dependant of M$ products is a feature to the target consumers, right?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 195 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by aTmosh on 12-Apr-2002 16:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 171 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Looks like time to step in and debunk some FUD again..
> Besides, I guess those 4 million people who buy Apple computers each year
> are all morons right?
I wish people would stop comparing Amiga to Apple, they have an established
base of millions of users, established niche and an established image; all
of which lets them control the hardware and the prices. People are willing
to pay for that because there are applications and a certain mystique
involved (not in the least because of beautiful design). Macs are status
symbols, they are expensive and trendy.
None of this has got anything to do with Amiga, since Amiga cannot command
the premium, is much smaller so should command an even larger premium to
commercially survive, Apple has a lock on the faster desktop PPCs, have
already successfully made the 68k->PPC transition years ago (and are now
completely dropping legacy OS baggage with MacOS X), are kept around by M$
to show they are not a monopoly etc. Oh, and Apple still manages to turn a
profit, for now. It's no surprise they are branching out into embedded
systems too (e.g. iPod), perhaps they see the signs on the wall too.
> unrivaled SIMD engine (Altivec) which overpowers anything the x86 can
> offer (including SSE2 which can't even be used in parallel with the FPU).
Eh? SSE2 isn't meant to rival Altivec, and your assertion of it being
broken by design or underpowered is nonsense. Other than that, I'm sorry to
say that x86 has ample power to overpower any G4, Altivec or not.
It seems we are doomed to repeat history: Commodore refused to up the
common denominator to 030 because it would have made the A1200 too
expensive (or 020 for A500+), hence developers wrote with that power in mind
and the Amiga was not taken seriously for productivity/office applications.
I fear the same will happen with A1, the initial G3 run will saturate the
A1200 upgrade market and developers will be less inclined to add Altivec
support due to the lowest common denominator.
The same goes for the OS, it will be an expensive resource drain to sustain
two versions if/when a G4 based A1 appears, especially since G5 will (at
least as far as the Moto roadmap shows) *NOT* have Altivec. Unless you tell
me it's going to be modular enough etc., although I wonder how modular Exec
can be made, such changes are pretty fundamental. That doesn't stop
application developers of taking advantage of what is there, but the lowest
common denominator and other market realities don't spell too much good.
> We have reliable information from insiders that the G5 will soundly turn
> the tables again.
Really? G5 is still nowhere to be seen, and starts at 800 MHz, without
Altivec. We already have 2.4 GHz P4 and 1933 MHz Athlons with much higher
than P4 IPC by end of June. There is NO WAY you can make up the difference
in clock by IPC, which is incidentally lower than AMD's x86 offerings now,
except maybe for Altivec optimized software (and the Hammer line is going
to change even that by the end of this year). It will take Moto/IBM quite a
while to ramp up the clock, sadly remaining on the lower end of the
performance curve where the desktop is concerned.
That of course can be a strength, after all embedded is Motorola's main
market (and it seems Amiga Inc.'s), but we as AmigaOS users are hardly
interested in singing PDAs or printers with Amiga logo on it, are we?
The Motorola PPC roadmap: http://e-www.motorola.com/collateral/PPCROADMAPGIF.gif
Note that it fails to mention Altivec for G5, although it prominently does
so for G4. Also note 'new pipeline' which means 'longer pipeline', i.e. the
same thing Intel did to ramp up clock -> longer pipelines mean larger
latency and in the Pentium 4's case also lower IPC (~20% between P3 and P4).
AMD have made the choice to up IPC and move slower on clock, but still
manage to pull away more and more from Motorola.
This is also going to be the case for G5, note the subscript: 6xx, 7xx, 7xxx
(i.e. G4) for high performance computing and high-end embedded, 8xx, 8xxx
(i.e. G5): integrated for communication/consumer. This specifically means
that the G5 is a performance degree *below* G4, and says something about
where Motorola is moving, and that's not a performance competitor to x86
on the desktop as you should have gathered by now. Unfortunately it's neither
a price competitor on the desktop due to volume. In fact it confirms Motorola's
stated intentions of focusing on embedded, which inevitably means abandoning
the desktop. This eventually will mean Apple having to look for alternatives,
so where exactly does that leave a desktop AmigaOS?
PPC is the wrong choice, whether you believe x86 is viable or not due to
Windows dominance, certainly in the long term, unless your intention is
to go embedded. Trouble is, we don't care about embedded, and therefore
about DE/AA! Well, at least I don't, I want a desktop AmigaOS, nothing more
</dons asbestos suit>.
> It already does that today despite a Mhz "handicap" of around 1 Ghz
> depending on your CPU of reference (P4 or AMD).
Unless you want to believe an instance of Apple hype where Photoshop
outperforms a Pentium 4/2 GHz by 300-344% for some Altivec optimized
filters (http://www.apple.com/powermac/specs.html), this is plainly not
true. Note that one of the systems was a dual G4/1 GHz and two out of three
had 2 MB DDR L3 cache, hardly a fair comparison of the CPUs themselves,
especially since I doubt SSE2 optimizations were used, or that the P4
platform very well may have run with a crippled SDRAM chipset. Try something
else like encoding MPEG2/4, or playing a game of Q3A, or adding another
dozen real world benchmarks where the G4 can't keep up.
I decided to go find something for myself and the largest difference I
could come up with was for RC5, where a current top of the line 1 GHz 7455
outperforms my 1400@1533 MHz Athlon Thunderbird by 100%, however that
benchmark is also quite skewed because a) you will not see this kind of
difference in real life due to very few things lending themselves to this
kind of optimization, b) the client I used to compare is not fully AMD
optimized yet, c) my Athlon doesn't even have SSE, let alone SSE2, d)
revisit this benchmark six months to a year down the road and things will
look quite different, not in the favour of PPC sadly.
Oh, and I'm afraid RC5 will be finished soon now, so I guess we will have
to look for other similar benchmarks. If you take OGR for example the
Altivec optimization melts like snow before the sun, Athlon 1400 performs
the same as that 1 GHz G4. Incidentally, pretty soon that's going to be the
lowest speed Athlon you can get, starting this week the lowest speed
Athlon's/Durons sold by AMD run at 1.1 GHz.
Similarly, I've just benchmarked POV-Ray 3.1g compiled in x86 elf mode for
Amithlon and beat a dual G4 (2x 533 MHz) setup (http://www.haveland.com/povbench/).
In fact, even if run in emulated 68k code instead, it still beats the
fastest PPC Amiga entry (603e/240 MHz) by a factor of 5 (or 18 for the elf
module). Of course this is the worst case scenario for PPC, since the
Blizzard cards are hugely crippled and I doubt a lot of optimization
has been done on POV-Ray (nor for the elf compile though), but it's still a
good comparison for real world 'from the hip' compiled programs.
Now considering that for the price of that G4 Mac you can buy 3-5 x86
systems that generally outperform it, who's counting? Or perhaps you
should, Motorola have been having severe difficulties in ramping up clock
for G4, even to the point where Apple had to recall machines, and there is
simply no movement there now, while the competition is moving faster and
faster it seems.
> Seeing as the Amiga was always considered a multi-media machine, we will
> have the ability to make it shine again.
I certainly hope you do, since software will have to do it if you bet all
your cards on PPC. But how will you attract people if you don't have the
software? All those licenses for stuff like browser plugins, codecs etc.
will cost a fortune, and major money/manpower to get them ported in the
first place. The chicken and egg story, without developers there are no
users, without users there are no developers. Sadly the A1 doesn't offer
anything earthshattering to draw either of them.
> a CPU architecture which is much better suited for emulating 68K code
> than a little endian CPU. Hardly surprising if one considers that Motorola
> had a had in designing both.
What kind of efficiency does Petunia reach? For comparison, Amithlon does
about 40%, you are welcome to post your values. Still, no matter how well
it's done, due to the raw power disadvantage a G3/600 has (or any speed G4
for that matter compared to equivalent top of the line x86) if you're after
emulation performance PPC is not the way to go. I'm beating all kinds of
*native* PPC programs here with an emulated 68k, at a fraction of the cost.
> Low power consumption which allows PPC hardware to be used in
> "homeserver" type devices which is where Amiga intends to position OS 4.x
> and OS 5 together with AmigaDE.
Define 'homeserver'. I think most AmigaOS users would like a desktop, not a
glorified router, entertainment rack or fridge that calls the supermarket
when it's out of Duff. Except those who swear by AGA and are into demo
coding, but A1 isn't for them anyway. Nor is DE/AA.
> Clear migration path to 64 bit with full backwards compatibility and no
> design compromises.
Interesting, one sentence before you assert that low power homeservers are
the target, so how exactly are you going to combine that with no design
compromises 64 bit power? The OS has to be extremely modular to cater for
such discrepancies and AmigaOS simply isn't. You know that you will have to
break all kinds of paradigms to get a modern OS with all the frills like
memory protection and SMP and the scalability you project above. This means
sandboxing the 'classic' OS, or emulation, both of which PPC is too
underpowered for, certainly G3. Or if you mean weaning Amigans off AmigaOS
for DE/AA, I'm not interested in Planet Zed, sorry.
Also, Hammer introduces 64 bit with full backward compatibility for 32 bit,
so nothing extraordinary there. Even then, without actual software support
this is of no use whatsoever.
From another message:
> I'm willing to take bets that the G5 will go a long way to restoring the balance of power.
I'm willing to take you up on that. What do we bet on? Within what timeline?
I'd like to cash in before I turn 40 if possible :)
Wittgenstein in 162:
> Well, I dont know what "leaked reports" you talk about, but almost
> everything that has slipped out about the G5 (or is it called G6 now? Some
> ppl sais that MOT has renamed PPC8500 to G6 and G5 is now the PPC7500) has
> been positive.
Nonsense, first of all the G5 is 85xx and G6 is 86xx, secondly G5 is so
much vapour you cannot have a definitive opinion about it, and last but not
least far from all reports have been positive. The information present is
very conflicting, and judging from the architectural changes Mot have
sacrificed IPC for clock, similar to Intel. If that results in more
performance overall fine, but there are no indications they can keep up in
clock, or with AMD's IPC after going the longer pipelines route, so it's
moot. Dragging IBM into this is useless, because they are not in the
desktop market and their chips will cost you an arm and leg, and a hearty
laughing at if you knock on their door for inclusion in Amiga hardware.
> The Hammer is more vapor than the G5 and it has only been
> shown once (correct me if I am wrong).
You are wrong, it has been shown running Linux at CeBIT and engineering
samples are in the hands of people concerned. How that constitutes more
vapour than the mythical G5 anyone is yet to see is beyond me.
> You also mentions that the Hammer is 20% - 25% faster than Athlon, but
> this figure is totally unimportant, because 64bit x86 is almost like a new
> platform.
Hammer includes a mix of 32 and 64 bit, and the improvement figure I've
been quoted was 30% for *32 bit* code. Naturally we'll have to see about
that when it actually ships.
> The price per performance of the the 64 bit x86 chip when running
> 32 bits code will be very poor (because that the complexity of the wirering
> increases with a factor 2) so only 64 bits code will be relevant.
Perhaps you are confusing Hammer with Intel's failed Itanium, 32 bit code
will be more efficient than current Athlons. AMD know what they are doing
thankfully. But don't take my word for it, we'll see soon enough.
> The big advantage of the PPC8500 is that it will execute 32 bits ppc code
> faster than the 7500 and it will reach clockspeed to atleast 3.5 GHz +- 0.5 GHz
This is pure speculation, Motorola's own roadmap lists 800 MHz-2 GHz for
85xx. Of course I could argue Intel will ramp P4 up to 10 GHz and IBM and
some other manufacturers have shown purely lab transistor setups that go
over 200 GHz in a bidding war, but that doesn't mean a flying fluff for us
desktop users, or for anyone much in the next 5 years. Then again, people
have already successfully overclocked Pentium 4s to over 4 GHz.. Personally
I'll be more than happy with 2.5 GHz Athlon (overclocked of course) by summer :)
Ben Hermans in 163:
> That information is all out there for anyone to find but unfortunately
> it's far easier to spout unfounded and misguided nonsense on websites than
> it is to actually do research.
Indeed. It's even easier to wildly speculate about PPC and spout FUD about
x86 in the face of all the evidence because you know you are hopelessly
behind when looking at performance.
No amount of bullshit will change the fact that Amiga/Hyperion has to do
brilliant software in order to stand a chance and that the same software on
x86 would run circles around any PPC solution or that this performance gap
will only increase. Especially since *emulated* 68k already outperforms
*native* G3/600 software. I guess the only way to face reality is to hide
in the headlight of the oncoming train for some..
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 196 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 12-Apr-2002 17:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 190 (Solar):
You ask why using iFusion is different from dual-booting. The answer is
simple: it's an emulator. It runs at the same time as AmigaOS, and even
more, AmigaOS is what is always booted first. I have Shapeshifter,
Fusion, and iFusion myself. I much prefer to use Amiga programs where
possible. For example, I'm using an Amiga browser right now, not
Netscape or IE. I only boot up a Mac emulator when there is really no
other choice (mostly for games that will never be ported to the Amiga).
Even for productivity programs, I use emulators as a enhancement to
AmigaOS rather than a replacement for it, since I can shuttle files
back and forth easily and use whatever programs I want.
With dual-booting, this isn't really feasible.
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 197 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 12-Apr-2002 23:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 195 (aTmosh):
>G5 is still nowhere to be seen, and starts at 800 MHz, without Altivec.
No, I don't trust you on that one.
I don't consider some Mot roadmap a good source for info - they change
easily as others do their underwear. :-)
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 198 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by NeRP on 13-Apr-2002 06:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 158 (Lennart Fridén):
>>"600mhz G3 will be able to run *any* software out there, currently
>>made, and currently available in the PC market as well."
>Uhm...yeah...you're of course thinking about emulating x86 and 68k.
>But since you said "*any* software out there" I'm sure you've got
>emulators for SH1 through SH4, MIPS, Alpha, ARM, StrongARM, SPARC,
>UltraSPARC, ColdFire etc in absurdum.
>*SIGH* Some clearly type before they think...
No, I was talking native ports, not lame emulations. But then again
I'm sure you thought of that, since YOU clearly think before you type,
right dumbass?
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 199 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by NeRP on 13-Apr-2002 06:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 159 (Lennart Fridén):
>Oh, shit didn't notice it was the lamer Shawn and his seven dwarf
>personalities. Ignore my previous comment, it's way beyond your
>mental capabilities anyway.
No, I'm not Shawn, and you are apparently dumb as shit!
OSNews.com : Dear Amiga Inc., Could I Make a Few Suggestions? : Comment 200 of 211ANN.lu
Posted by NeRP on 13-Apr-2002 06:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 154 (Solar):
>I need a word processor able to read and write Word documents without
>mangling them. I need a mail client that can process meeting
>requests. I need a 1.4EE Java development environment.
Sounds like you need a PC
>If that happens (and it hasn't, in fact my x86 systems give me less
>trouble than my Amiga ever has), I'll have to buy a new one anyways
>*because the Amiga does not run the software required to do the
>work
Sounds like you need a PC
>Little do you realize. You desperately need every f***ing user and
>developer you can get for AmigaOS to survive. Why do you insist on
>making it so difficult for them?
NO! LITTLE DO YOU REALISE.... we made it this far, and AmigaOne will
only improve the situation. It'll be nice to finally be rid of the
whiners that only sit around and bitch cause their welfare cheque
won't cover the cost of the AmigaOne.
All you people do is cut down AmigaOS anyway, and/or the hardware,
then in the next breath claim how mortally important it is to you. If
it really was that important, you'd get AmigaOne, right? It's not
like it's an entire lifes savings you know?
Hmmm
Could be a whole lot of welfare cheques though... :)
Anonymous, there are 211 items in your selection (but only 61 shown due to limitation) [1 - 50] [51 - 100] [101 - 150] [151 - 200] [201 - 211]
Back to Top