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[Motd] Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PRANN.lu
Posted on 12-Nov-2002 19:45 GMT by Christian Kemp (Edited on 2002-11-12 22:00:15 GMT by Christian Kemp)62 comments
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Tonight, I received an email complaint from Elbox concerning this article in the Forum section. Read more below. The posting in question included code allegedly taken from a disassembled Elbox usb.device. However, no sufficient proof could be provided that this code indeed exists. On the other hand, there is no firm proof that the accusations made in the thread are not true. While the act of publishing code that seems to be derived from copyrighted material could be considered abusive and unlawful in some countries, code such as the one described in the article would be more harmful to the end user, and also punishable by law.

Elbox requested that the entire posting and all comments be removed, mentioned one of my advertisers, cited my hosting provider's Terms of Service and a non-existent "ANN netiquette" in what I consider as an attempt to blackmail me into removing all traces of criticism about their company and products.

I am complying with their request to the extent that I removed the posted code, even if no sufficient proof was provided that this code is indeed copyrighted by Elbox, or that any allegations made in the post are not true.

I will, however, not comply with their requests to remove the rest of the posting, or all of the comments added to the posting.

This posting was moved into the Forum section that is not displayed on ANN's main page by default. Visitors who go there need to click an explicit link and are well aware that content in the Forum or Unmoderated sections might not have been verified for accuracy or abuse, or contain content that might for any other reason be questionable. I did not remove the article in question at the time it was posted, because it made a valid objection that until now was not proven to be untrue, and because I was hoping that somebody would come up with an explanation in the comments.

The fact that Elbox does not seem to want to discuss things in an open manner, and seems to prefer to refer to blackmailing techniques to hide all evidence of criticism on a website, is slightly disheartening, but I am not willing to just remove an entire posting with serious allegations about code that could lead to severe damage and money loss, without any further explanation.

Until now, I did not have any contact with Elbox, and am neither a Elbox customer nor an owner of a competing product; and do not have any business that is even remotely connected to Elbox, or benefits in any way from whatever is posted here. It is my opinion that I am handling this incident in the most straightforward and objective way. Please discuss.

PS. Note that Elbox did not claim that the posted code was owned by them, only that if this was the case, we would be looking at a copyright violation. While this is a thin line, one has to realize that this is not an admission of ownership, or guilt.

Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 1 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 12-Nov-2002 18:51 GMT
This was to be expected really, sad but true :(
As i'm not a mediator owner myself i can't verify the code myself neighter, but i'd love to find out the truth about it. You handled in the best way i can imagine you to handle this, do not let anyone blackmail you, blackmailing is a lowly act.
It's in Elbox's hands now to refute these acusations, and making you delete the item won't make the questions disappair anyway
Amon_Re
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 2 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 12-Nov-2002 19:04 GMT
Considering Elbox has now claimed that the code is copyrighted by them, that sort of proves that the code is in fact present in an Elbox software product.
How else could they claim Copyright, if the code was made up?
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 3 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Lasse Bodilsen on 12-Nov-2002 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (T_Bone):
"I am complying with their request to remove the posted code, even if no sufficient proof was provided that this code is indeed copyrighted by Elbox, or that any allegations made in the post are not true. "
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 4 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Budda on 12-Nov-2002 19:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (T_Bone):
If Elbox then deny that the code is theirs too, it could be put back on the forum :)
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 5 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 12-Nov-2002 19:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Lasse Bodilsen):
Note that I changed the wording on that statement. The sentence you are quoting is the original wording, the post currently has a slightly different, and hopefully less ambiguous wording.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 6 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 12-Nov-2002 19:14 GMT
I don't think elbox has any (moral) right to tell you what to do in this case. Perhaps an explanation to the post i question could have been attached, such as that the information is provided as is. And that no verification of whether it is true or not has been made. I personally think that you did more than enough when removing the code.
The only bad behaviour made was them using questionable tactics (as described by you) to get the post removed. All they had to do was to make a statement about their view about the situation and that would have been enough. Trying to cover it up does them no good in any respect and is definitly a step in the wrong direction if they wanted to say that they have indeed not included said malicious code.
/Björn
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 7 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 12-Nov-2002 19:19 GMT
Kinda strange.. I would have assumed they *should* know what's inside their dirvers. Should't they? Or have they just used someones code and not even bothered to read it thru before giving it along their cards?
One way or another.. Sounds fishy.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 8 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by T_Bone on 12-Nov-2002 19:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Lasse Bodilsen):
> "I am complying with their request to remove the posted code, even if no sufficient proof was provided that this code is indeed copyrighted by Elbox, or that any allegations made in the post are not true. "
Bah! Reading is for wimps! Only the weak read the whole article! ;)
I wonder if Slashdot would remove the code, if no Copyright was claimed? Dying to find out... (well, after I hear from someone that can confirm the code is there)
Aw hell, forget it, I don't have the balls. Someone else submit a story.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 9 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 12-Nov-2002 19:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Björn Hagström):
I suppose it would be fairer if I were to post the email from Elbox in its entirety so people could see how it was worded. As it is, visitors will only get my subjective impression of it, no matter how much I try to be objective. However, I'm considering any email I received to be private, and therefore cannot quote it on here.
(Inquiring viewers might be aware that in recent weeks, a few postings have been moderated off the forum or main page without any further questions asked, simply because somebody qualified to do so sent a simple, non-threatening email, I agreed with their point, and the posting in question didn't raise any question that would really have necessitated an open answer.)
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 10 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 12-Nov-2002 19:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (T_Bone):
This was part of my reasoning before I removed the code: what would Slashdot (or any other community-oriented and -based website) do? However, I was thinking that in the small niche we're filling, you have to do some compromises. Removing the code was as far as I was willing to go - I neither wanted a direct confrontation, nor a restriction of open discussion.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 11 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Bill Hoggett on 12-Nov-2002 19:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Christian Kemp):
You did exactly right, Christian. The disassembed code itself may or may not have originated from the Elbox drivers, and it would most certainly be copyrighted if genuine.
However, the test for showing the consequences of that code is not copyrighted, and if the allegation is true there is definitely a question of criminal damage by Elbox.
Ironically, Elbox's request to remove the code while no denial of the allegation was made does tend to increase the likelyhood that the allegation is true.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 12 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by darklite on 12-Nov-2002 19:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Christian Kemp):
>(Inquiring viewers might be aware that in recent weeks, a few postings have been
>moderated off the forum or main page without any further questions asked, simply
>because somebody qualified to do so sent a simple, non-threatening email, I
>agreed with their point, and the posting in question didn't raise any question
>that would really have necessitated an open answer.)
You are of course in your right to to do, but I hated seeing the "Frieden comments on DH's pro-x86 views" thread being removed, as an interesting, civilised, thread had developed. Maybe you can remove the article, but not the comments next time?
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 13 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 12-Nov-2002 19:46 GMT
> I am complying with their request to the extent that I removed the posted
> code, even if no sufficient proof was provided that this code is indeed
> copyrighted by Elbox, or that any allegations made in the post are not true.
> I will, however, not comply with their requests to remove the rest of the
> posting, or all of the comments added to the posting.
A fair move!
And I think that it is of everyones interest now to investigate if there is any truth behind the accusations in the original post. I don't have the skills to do it myself, but I urge the skilled ones to do it. If several different sources confirms/denies the accusations, then we will know if it was all bullsh!t from the beginning or if it is Elbox that is sh!tty ...
An éloge to C Kemp for upholding the freedom of speech and not giving in to empty threats from one party. A forum is an opportunity for *everyone* to speak, including Elbox. You should be able to discuss everything. And Elbox are free to make comments in public under the same thread as the original post. If they don't, it's up to them.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 14 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 12-Nov-2002 19:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (darklite):
I was planning to do that, but unfortunately ANN is not always my main priority, and at work I do not always have access to all administrative options my scripts provide.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 15 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by gz on 12-Nov-2002 20:41 GMT
seems elbox has aquired some lessons of how to do 'business' from mcbacon ;)
Ok sorry, that shouldn't have been brought to this thread as the topic is of no relevance to my comment but it was too juicy opportunity to say it and therefore I couldn't help it. I will try to restrain myself from now on.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 16 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by redrumloa on 12-Nov-2002 20:53 GMT
IMHO you made the right decision. OTOH Elbox is looking like they have egg on their face...
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 17 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Anders Kjeldsen on 12-Nov-2002 20:59 GMT
I support this decision 99%.
I can't believe Elbox is doing this.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 18 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by [JC] on 12-Nov-2002 21:13 GMT
This knee-jerk reaction from Elbox, followed with blackmail, pretty much shows that Elbox are guilty as charged.
Time to start an open source USB driver implementation, guys.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 19 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 12-Nov-2002 21:16 GMT
Elbox just keeps amazing me!
Years ago I was amazed by their products, now I'm amazed by their business skills, or should I say lack off skills.
You did the right thing Christian, now I hope Elbox breaks the silence and gives us an explanation.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 20 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 12-Nov-2002 21:55 GMT
Elbox, I hardly cared about thee...
There are other USB APIs out there (MOS for example?). Reimplement one of those.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 21 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 12-Nov-2002 22:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (strobe):
MorphOS, Subway, Highway, Mediator, and with OpenPCI, G-Rex and Prometheus,
use Poseidon. The same USB stack. We just need a driver that works everywhere...
Already possible with OpenPCI but Elbox doesn't want it... They even threatened
Titan with Legal action if he released OpenPCI with Mediator support, as it
would harm their mmcd sales, (it has a free RTL8139 driver, usb drivers and
several other stuff).
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 22 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 12-Nov-2002 22:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
What is it with this protectionist attitude in the Amiga community?!?!
AAAAAAAAGH!!!!!
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 23 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Troels E on 12-Nov-2002 23:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (strobe):
I find the protectionist attityde ok, allthough there are several ways to accomplish this and Elbox seems to be way off..
The Amiga market are to small atm. to just let go and have more competition, I understand why Elbox _need_ the extra sale of hardware and driver CD's. I just don't like the way they are doing it, it's a wrong way!
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 24 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 12-Nov-2002 23:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
hmmm.. maybe it`s a silly question, but what could elbox do if someone else writes driver for mediator?
From an "ethical" Point of view, they better shut up imediatelly.. someone who doesn`t care over others License (In this case the P96 driver
which according to the P96 License is fully ilegal)shouldn`t complain among others who do free drivers for a bought product.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 25 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by knapster on 12-Nov-2002 23:23 GMT
I would not have even read the thread, unless Elbox had made a fuss in the first place. So they are simply making it worse for themselves. If the code really does trash hardware (a RDB of a harddrive) then this is deliberate sabotage of someone's computer, that would otherwise be ok. Now they have made a mess, either they should come clean and remove the code front their driver (rather than a posting on a news site) or deny the story and allow the 'fictionl' code back.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 26 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Ian on 12-Nov-2002 23:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (T_Bone):
> Considering Elbox has now claimed that the code is copyrighted by them, that sort of proves that the code is in fact present in an Elbox software product.
Where did you see that Elbox claimed that this code is copyrighted by them?
Christian wrote: 'Note that Elbox did not claim that the posted code was owned by them, only that if this was the case, we would be looking at a copyright violation.'
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 27 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Ian on 12-Nov-2002 23:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Christian Kemp):
>I suppose it would be fairer if I were to post the email from Elbox
So, why didn't you do it?
> However, I'm considering any email I received to be private, and therefore cannot quote it on here.
But you feel free to comment this private letter publicly :-(
I think, it would be much more fair if you quoted Elbox letter instead of commenting it.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 28 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Ian on 12-Nov-2002 23:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Bill Hoggett):
>Ironically, Elbox's request to remove the code while no denial of the allegation was made does tend to increase the likelyhood that the allegation is true.
How do you know what Elbox requested?
I haven't seen any statement on it from _them_.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 29 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by strobe on 13-Nov-2002 00:55 GMT
I agree with Ian.
On what grounds can Elbox tell you to remove the code if it isn't theirs?
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 30 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by James on 13-Nov-2002 01:51 GMT
The thing you all seem to be forgetting is the very simple fact that if you disassemble the code, you are breaking copyright. If you modify it, then your DEFINATELY breaching copyright. Wether or not they did code it, the fact it was modified , and could ONLY be activated by the illegal modification of the code means Elbox can't be charged with intent to damage, as the product they sold 'as is', does NOT do this. It would be like someone writing a HD Repair Tool Kit, and it worked fine with X and Y, but someone hacked it to work with Z and it killed the device. It was NEVER written to work with Z, so if it stuffs up that device as a RESULT of the USER's actions, then it's their own fault.
PS. No i don't own any of their gear either, nor care to for that matter.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 31 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Bladerunner on 13-Nov-2002 02:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (James):
your totally wrong.
1. you cannot prevent crime with another crime. And that is waht elbox did
2. According to a guy on Amiga-news, there where some posts on the mediator list (which have been
removed in the meantime) which have proven that there IS this code and you haven`t to modify the device.
It is obviously possible, that you can destroy your rdb without hacking this device.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 32 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 13-Nov-2002 03:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (James):
> The thing you all seem to be forgetting is the very simple fact that if you disassemble the code, you are breaking copyright.
Copyright law does not deal with disassembly of code. You may be violating other things such as a license, but you are not violating Copyright by disassembling code. Posting it to a website is another story.
> If you modify it, then your DEFINATELY breaching copyright.
Copyright law does not deal with the modification of code. You may be violating other things such as a license, but you are not violating Copyright by modifying code. Publishing the modification, along with the Copyrighted code, is another story.
> Wether or not they did code it, the fact it was modified , and could ONLY be
> activated by the illegal modification of the code means Elbox can't be
> charged with intent to damage,
What was the intent of the included code? What's it's purpose?
> as the product they sold 'as is', does NOT do this.
Hmmm, you mean like a backdoor trojan? It does no damage untill activated.
> It would be like someone writing a HD Repair Tool Kit, and it worked fine
> with X and Y, but someone hacked it to work with Z and it killed the device.
It depends, did the code intentionally check for Z and then maliciously delete customer data on purpose?
> It was NEVER written to work with Z, so if it stuffs up that device as a
> RESULT of the USER's actions, then it's their own fault.
What about the RESULT of the actions of the code that intentionally deletes the USERS data?
There's no grey area here folks, this is blatantly ILLEGAL. I'm fed up and sick to death with scum like this. These people need to be sent a very black and white message that what's left of the Amiga community will NO LONGER TOLERATE this garbage. May you all burn in hell. Pack up your thieves tools and leave, and don't let the screen door hit your a$$ on the way out.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 33 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Nov-2002 04:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Xeyes):
Illegal or not. Wouldn't some kind of action to show this kind of action is not welcome be enough. Do you really need to drive off one of the last remaining hardware developers left on the Amiga? Do it with a few more companies and you can successfully have no hardware developers, then you can be happy, as no one will develop for the amiga again, but hey least you got no one left you can run out of the market or complain about.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 34 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Mikko Virtanen on 13-Nov-2002 05:15 GMT
when I first saw the original posting and the code, I tried thinking what this guy would gain by posting such thing. Couldn't think of any real reasons and didn't want to start creating conspiracy theories either, therefore I think the code is indeed a part of the drivers code.
Elbox's reactions dont change this, quite he opposite.
In a matter of fact this is just the kind of thing a struggling piece-of-shit company would do in a niche market like ours.
Unforgiveable, BUT I would like to see a bit more mature reaction from Elbox just to even TRY clear their name. Eagerly waiting where this all leads to.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 35 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 13-Nov-2002 06:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> Illegal or not. Wouldn't some kind of action to show this kind of action is not
> welcome be enough. Do you really need to drive off one of the last remaining
> hardware developers left on the Amiga? Do it with a few more companies and you
> can successfully have no hardware developers, then you can be happy, as no one
> will develop for the amiga again, but hey least you got no one left you can run
> out of the market or complain about.
Excuse me?!! Are you saying that to not lose HW developers you are ready to let them do with your rights whatever they wish?!
Gah, if the market has to be this roted, better there's no market at all!
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 36 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 13-Nov-2002 06:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Ian):
> > I suppose it would be fairer if I were to post the email from Elbox
> So, why didn't you do it?
Because in many countries that would be illegal.
> > However, I'm considering any email I received to be private, and therefore
> > cannot quote it on here.
> But you feel free to comment this private letter publicly :-(
That's not illegal in any country I know of.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 37 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Grzegorz Juraszek on 13-Nov-2002 06:19 GMT
I decided to add my comment because I'm known among Polish Amiga users as a person always "fighting with Elbox". It is only partially true as not everyone understands my motives.
The hell broke off just the day after the announcement of of Prometheus PCI bridge from Matay. I was a PR person for the company then and I received a phone call with information that Elbox did some serious threatening moves as to prevent the PCI bridge from being released. I won't name the companies they threatened as I don't have any full-proof evidence and cannot check it today but you will know which ones could be (these connected with Warp3D and P96 teams, I would say). It didn't work though and Elbox got really angry. Then we had a famous accusation message after the first Prometheus review was published. They accused Matay of stealing code for drivers. In the letter, they put some names and my name was among them. The accusations were ridiculous but, of course, no one could do anything about it. Imagine me, a student (well, maybe not really poor but busy and certainly not willing to sue somebody) calling for a trail with them. I knew I would regret that, so the only result of it was, I could say, creation of a personal grudge I've held since against them.
Many more stupid accusations and wordfight exchange over Polish Amiga portals came after that. As a Matay PR person I was obliged to comment on them no matter how stupid and out-of-nowhere they were. This created a "fed-up attitude" towards such discussions among Polish Amiga users and they don't want to hear about anything no matter how bad Elbox behaves. This leads to a situation when no Amiga portal in Poland even mentioned the malicious code problem. The other thing is that they may be afraid of some legal actions taken by Elbox against them. It's easy to sue somebody in the same country and definitelly cheaper. I know that none of two portal owners here is willing to engage in a lawsuit. Their portals don't make any profits and I perfectly understand them.
A threat is real - from time to time Elbox threatens some of people who don't want to shut up sending them emails with reprimend. Of course, they don't say it open - just "if you continue, we MAY take some legal action" but it's enough for pupils, students and other young people who don't want to jeopardize their career and good name for the idea of fighting them.
I no longer work for Matay. It's been over a year now since I quit. I don't own a Prometheus or any other PCI bridge anymore. I don't even have an Amiga now. I sold it in prospect of buying A1 or Pegasos (haven't decided yet). What intrest would I have in fighting Elbox? No money, for sure. Fame? Come on, what fame can it bring? Maybe bad fame - you see how I introduced myself in the post. Some Polish Amiga users criticize me a lot because of my comments on Elbox. They say that no matter what they do and how bad they behave, they are the last real Polish Amiga company. Funny, isn't it?
You can ask - why then he continues? What's his point? (Elbox people say that Matay pays me for commenting ;). I can answer that in two ways. One - it's quite fun to see Elbox employees commenting. It's always funny when somebody not having any serious arguments continues discussion. He has to invent something... Example? I was called by some Elbox employee "Goebbels" (refering to my comments about them). Would you be mad about it? Not if the comment was done by such a person. Are you mad when children call me names? Maybe for a while, that's all. Second reason - the personal grudge I mentioned. If an adult continues to diminish your good name, you have two solutions: sue him or beat him. As none of them suits me, I chose wordfight. It has many disadvantages, but well... I could just shut up and not comment. But, again, it's against my nature.
To continue - apart from Goebbels, the same employee called other people criticizing Elbox my clones. You read right - CLONES. And it was an official comment (made in the name of the company). Pretty flattering, isn't it? I have clones to fight Elbox. Like the Emperor of the galaxy ;). Of course, that's not all. When it comes to argument exchange, Elbox spokespeople usually end with offending their counterparts. For example, one of my friends (you should know him, he is the creator of Frogger) was called "not able to read properly". Did he sue them? Of course not. We laugh at it because it's the only thing we can do. Elbox employees usually end with a "you are too stupid to talk to" or "you are mentally ill" motive, usually not literally but as an allusion (they have lawyers for that, I think ;). Many, many more people were commented on like that. There is even a webpage with (almost) all abusive Elbox comments gathered together (it's not the famous e-butt, another one). I don't give a link because it is in Polish. If you want it, send me a mail. It'd be funny to translate it but I don't have time for that.
To cut my long story short - don't be surprised if somebody is not willing to fight them. If it was for money, profits, power - hell, why not? But if it's just for the sense of righteousness - you'd think twice. Sad but true. I only hope that the dawn of new Amiga computers (and clones ;) will put them out of bussiness and they'd switch to their primary market which is not Amiga, no matter how Amiga-committed they want to appear abroad. I'd never buy anything from them anymore and I hope that some of my comments can prevent at least a few people from the same mistake.
To end up with a laugh: do you know what is their answering argument to all I wrote above when I put it on a Polish Amiga portal? "You're not an Elbox customer, you don't have right to comment!" Good laugh, isn't it?
So, all of you not-Elbox-customers - shut up now! ;)
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 38 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Grzegorz Juraszek on 13-Nov-2002 06:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Grzegorz Juraszek):
I'm sorry for a broken email link in my original post. It should be grzegorz(put "at" here)amiga.pl. No proper email link to prevent automatic spamming, I'm sure you understand.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 39 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 13-Nov-2002 06:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
> Illegal or not. Wouldn't some kind of action to show this kind of action is
> not welcome be enough.
No. We're not raising children, we're consumers dealing with a business. You don't send a business to his room, you stop doing business with them. Such kid-gloves you people are willing to wear!
> Do you really need to drive off one of the last remaining hardware
> developers left on the Amiga?
Yes, for crap like this? yes. Don't give me the "preserving the community" crap, getting rid of businesses like this SAVE the community. How many people are going to cling to a dying platform with trojan-riddled backdoors in the drivers?
> Do it with a few more companies and you can successfully have no hardware
> developers, then you can be happy, as no one will develop for the amiga
> again, but hey least you got no one left you can run out of the market or
> complain about.
Wrong, get rid of the bad companies, you create/enlarge the market for the few GOOD developers left. they'll appreciate that, and the good developers, THEY deserve it.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 40 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Syke on 13-Nov-2002 07:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (Grzegorz Juraszek):
Heh,
this almost inspires me to start my miggy (yeah, it's not being used at the moment, because of a some probs with the PPC card) and post the letter that I recieved from Elbox after I recieved their tower. IIRC it said something about my ability to read the manual (which wasn't included in the package).
/Regards
Stefan "Syke" Falk
www.amigaextreme.com
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 41 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Syke on 13-Nov-2002 07:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Syke):
Whooops, change the second "recieve to "review".
/Regards
Stefan "Syke" Falk
www.amigaextreme.com
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 42 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 13-Nov-2002 08:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (James):
A product that contains code intended to damage other people
software or hardwasre in ANY way and for ANY reason is illegal
in most EU countries. At the same time most EU countries allow
people to modify (for personal use only) a program they own
to make it work with other stuff they legally own.
So, if the usb.device really contains that code, it can not
be distributed in my country (Italy). Period.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 43 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 13-Nov-2002 08:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Anonymous):
What is the point to support Amiga computer if the people behind products
work exactly like many Windows developers?
Backdoors, illegal code, blackmail against who unveil
their secrets, spyware in software (it's not the case of ElBox
but of some other shareware programs) and so on. What is the
difference between Amiga and Windows, at this time?
Well, on Amiga you pay more to get less and the same
LACK of respect. And instead they have less work to
do, they can earn more (more profit per product sold) and
have less competitors.
At this point it's really better to have one product
instead of two, if having two means paying a so big price.
This is not anymore what Amiga was. This is just a trick
to earn money. From too many people, not just elbox
with their killrdb.device ( ;-) )
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 44 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 13-Nov-2002 09:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (Gabriele Favrin):
" Backdoors, illegal code, blackmail against who unveil
their secrets, spyware in software (it's not the case of ElBox
but of some other shareware programs) and so on. What is the
difference between Amiga and Windows, at this time? "
Biggest difference is that with Windowse you can chose whose hardware and software you use cause there is allways alternative available. As M$Office stiks, I got OpenOffice instead. Radeon-drivers for w2k were Buggy, I switched to Matrox etc..
And yes.. IF I liked Linux (or other Unix) enough I would have dumped this Windowse long time ag and used those. Unfortunately I don't like them so I just keep on waiting NEW amiga.
I don't care if Elbox can do flimsy hardware, none of them (what I have seen) are meaningfull after Pegasos and AmigaOne comes to market. Their cards are not needed much longer and with their attitude towards customers, neither are they.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 45 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by pinka on 13-Nov-2002 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (James):
> The thing you all seem to be forgetting is the very simple fact that if you
> disassemble the code, you are breaking copyright.
This is bullshit. I can do what ever I want with the stuff my machine is running as long as I dont publish it at least. And in my country I am allowed to publish a quote from copyrighted material so just tell me where to get this piece of code and Ill publish it.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 46 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Nov-2002 10:21 GMT
Elbox is dying.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 47 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Gabriele Favrin on 13-Nov-2002 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (pinka):
Someone copied the original post from ANN to this site:
http://strony.wp.pl/wp/dareksmietana/
I really hope that someone will talk of this story
(especially the censorship and the request to remove
even COMMENTS!) outside the Amiga community, eg.
on Slashdot.
We as the Amiga community HAVE to react to these
things. At this time ElBox has only two choices:
tell if the code is there OR make clear it's not there and write
public excuses for their recent behaviour. Maybe if they
haven't anything to hide they can also release usb.device
source.
Btw... I'm trying to imagine them blackmail Slashdot
or Google groups ;-)
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 48 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 13-Nov-2002 10:26 GMT
"PS. Note that Elbox did not claim that the posted code was owned by them, only that if this was the case, we would be looking at a copyright violation."
Huh? Don't post that code that may or may not be ours because if it is we'll sue? If thats not a shielded admission of guilt, I don't know what is.
You know, I was soooo close to going the Elbox route to OS4 at one point, SharkPPC looked tempting, but i think my 4000 will forever remain 68060 based, and i'll just get myself an AmigaONE to go with it.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 49 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 13-Nov-2002 10:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Troels E):
> I find the protectionist attityde ok, allthough there are several ways to
> accomplish this and Elbox seems to be way off..
They take hardware developed by others and slightly modifies the "firmware" (that is, a different PCI subvendor ID), and sell it as "Amiga" products. That sounds familiar to me!
They could have sold the product with an EUA saying that you don't have the right to use the software the way you want. They could have dongled the software. They could also have implemented a "License" policy to guarantee that the software works with "Elbox aproved" hardware (which will only be the Elbox products).
> The Amiga market are to small atm. to just let go and have more competition,
> I understand why Elbox _need_ the extra sale of hardware and driver CD's. I
> just don't like the way they are doing it, it's a wrong way!
If they are so desperate on money they could have started an "I am Elbox" club, selling $50 coupons and promising some T-shirts for it.
Elbox RDB allegations and email received from Elbox PR : Comment 50 of 62ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 13-Nov-2002 11:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (takemehomegrandma):
This is irrelevant. You are acting like an idiot.
Elbox are trying to serve a very small market. If you want to make money in the current Amiga climate selling hardware, Elboxes basic strategy is very good, and economically sensible.
However, threatening website moderators, putting trojan code in your drivers, and attempting to harm your competitors are all unacceptable, and through this behaviour Elbox can only expect to lose customers.
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