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[News] Eyetech server change and new G3 A1.ANN.lu
Posted on 21-Jan-2003 15:42 GMT by Troels Ersking (Edited on 2003-01-21 19:12:42 GMT by Christophe Decanini)94 comments
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Eyetechs new server is now operational and, more components has been added to the A1 section of the website. The A1XE-G3 is now sold with an 800MHZ CPU and replaces the 700mhz XE-G3 model. Alan RedHouse said on the AmigaOne mailing list:
The 800mhz CPU makes it around 60-70% faster than the A1G3-SE.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 1 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by StAn on 21-Jan-2003 15:05 GMT
750FX@800MHz rules... (power consumption wise at least)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 2 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 21-Jan-2003 15:07 GMT
Cool, we'll be up to dual G5 5GHz before AOS4 comes out at this rate! =)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 3 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 21-Jan-2003 17:16 GMT
Good news.
How (even with a better core on the FX ) the 200 Mhz speed jump make the system 60-70% faster ?
How was the 60-70% figure was calculated ?
Is it the full system, just the CPU performance or the performance gain on the JIT ?
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 4 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 21-Jan-2003 17:20 GMT
And concerning availability Alan wrote on the A1 mailinglist that they have recieved 25 G4 boards with the new layout and artica-s chip.
They will be sent to developers this week for final testing. They have already passed testing in Mais labs. Following that they go into full production.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 5 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 21-Jan-2003 17:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Troels Ersking):
And what is fixed in the new Articia layout ?
Is it the bug which is actualy fixed with wires soldered on the mobo or is the new layout fixing other things ?
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 6 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by tarbos on 21-Jan-2003 17:46 GMT
Why can't Pegasos have G3-800 as stated in December 2002?Has the "end of January 2003" quote been a mistake after all?What's the advantage of that CPU slot when there are no options?!AmigaOne was dismissed as being backwards and unflexible and now look,they've catched up and overtaken Pegasos (on paper)!
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 7 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 21-Jan-2003 18:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Christophe Decanini):
There is more than wires in the A1G3SE.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 8 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 21-Jan-2003 18:15 GMT
The changes makes sense IMO.

So when is the new ETA? Mid to late February? Well, I guess that really doesn't matter since the OS4 isn't due until March. But that is soon now! Seems like things finally are beginning to happen on the A1/OS4 side of the Amiga market. That's good. Maybe the waiting for some people will be over soon?
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 9 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 21-Jan-2003 18:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (tarbos):
> What's the advantage of that CPU slot when there are no options?!

There will of course be options.

> AmigaOne was dismissed as being backwards and unflexible and now look,
> they've catched up and overtaken Pegasos (on paper)!

No, not really. On paper the Pegasos 1GHz G4 (single and double CPU) still leads in MHz (and that is just the MHz aspect of it). In real life the Pegasos is still delivered with a G3 @ 600MHz, so is the few A1 SE with soldered on CPU's that has been delivered this far (and remember - no A1 XE has been delivered at all yet).

The concept with CPU modules is a good thing IMO, and it's nice to see that the A1 will be available with this option too. And will it have on board sound now as well?
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 10 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 21-Jan-2003 18:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Troels Ersking):
So in fact the February delay that was an "unfounded rumour" is 100% true.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 11 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by SKAN on 21-Jan-2003 19:02 GMT
OK OK, now everything is going the right way... BUT I WANT AOS4 ASAP!!! (Bugfree, I mean!!!) ;)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 12 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Yoris on 21-Jan-2003 19:06 GMT
What surprises me is that everybody talks about this or that machine being 100 or 200 Mhz than the others, but nobody seems to be worried about the flagrant lack of dedicated applications.
Bye,
Ben
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 13 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 21-Jan-2003 19:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Ben Yoris):
Exactly my thoughts. What is the software that makes me run out and get one of these?

(And I guess this applies to all "next-generation" Amiga solutions, be they PPC or x86 based. What's needed is some cutting edge applications to incite people to "switch".)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 14 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 21-Jan-2003 19:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Ben Yoris):
What do you mean by "dedicated applications"?

Do you mean apps that is PPC native and made for the new OS(es)? Then I believe those will come. On the Pegasos/MorphOS there are several allready.

Or do you mean dedicated applications as in 'exclusive for the Amiga envireonment'? That *might* be a problem, but again, new applications *may* arize. And more important is perhaps that the OS and user envireonment *itself* is an exclusive thing for AmigaOS (and the other OS distributions on the Amiga platform). I believe that many users values that higher than some well known apps on other platforms.

But I don't really think that neither the A1 nor the Pegasos is positioned today as a general Wintel killer targeted at the general "Joe User". I don't really know the thoughts and strategies behind the A1/OS4 (or even if there actually are any whatsoever after the A1/OS4 is released), but I believe that the Pegasos/MorphOS at this stage mainly is a developers platform, targeted to draw developers to the platform which in turn will develop for new niche appliances as the Eclipsis, Psylent, different kinds of STB's, and why not future desktop systems and server systems? The Pegasos is about creating a momentum for future developments, not to draw M$ out of the market during the next few week. At least that is what I think.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 15 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 21-Jan-2003 19:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Ben Yoris):
Right, having applications is the most important thing.
Having the HW/OS/Dev tools ready is also important to have developers create these applications.
It is granted that the applications could be developped on 68k/pup/wos and adapted after but some people are also waiting to get their hand on new HW to make their projects become a reality.
I have asked some Amiga developers if they would port/code new apps for OS4/ MorphOS and their answers were mostly: "If these platforms sell well we may do it."
The problem is thay may not sell well if most of the developers wait and see ... :(
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 16 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by clhammer on 21-Jan-2003 19:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Christian Kemp):
(.....What's needed is some cutting edge applications to incite people to "switch".)

Question: What comes first; 'programs' or 'a base of users'?
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 17 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Christian Kemp on 21-Jan-2003 20:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (clhammer):
Catch 22, I would guess. Often, you won't have important programs until there is a market, which might not form when there are no important programs... So I guess the path that both Amiga Inc. and Genesi seem to follow right now (get developers interested, and then take it from there) isn't too bad, except that all of it is taking too much time...
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 18 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Alex Klauke on 21-Jan-2003 20:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Christian Kemp):
Ben:

> but nobody seems to be worried about the flagrant lack of dedicated applications.

Oh, I am worried about new applications, don't assume otherwise. That's why I show my support and
give the developers of those 'dedicated applications' an incentive to invest their time and money in
a new (re-newed) platform: With jumping in from the very beginning (A1 XE-G4 on the way).
Some have to take that risk (it's not that I risk my life, 'just' some money. Been to the stock market
lately? ;-)

And I have read and heard about companies that are willing to develope for OS 4. Don't you read
ANN.LU? That's where some of those news could be found lately. :-)

Christian:

> What's needed is some cutting edge applications to incite people to "switch".

That definitely is the hard part. Do not expect those before a not so small lead time. Neither the cutting
edge nor the people that 'switch' to Amiga for the first time. The latter the AmigaOne and OS 4 were
never intented for (winning over new users), only just for a 'transition' for the existing base.
(even if you don't believe AmigaInc. a yota, there must be a reason they did plans for OS 5 even before
they told us that they want to continue AmigaOS to version 4. Both in the April 2001 Tech Up. Could
it not be that they did plan OS 4/AmigaOne as intermediate step after they could not do their Ami-intent
OS - now OS 5 ?!? - in an acceptable short time? But what do I know, don't mind).

And, as familiar OS 4 may be to the best willing developer as it is AmigaOS after all, there still is a learning
curve for the new functionalities (fe application.library). And you won't say fe. Pagestream, Photogenics,
whatever just recompiled for PPC is 'cutting edge', would you? 'Cutting edge' will only appear when the
programmers do know how to handle OS 4 the right way. Do not honestly expect it before the end of
this year. I don't, I do work in the software developement industry...

2c

Ciao, Alex

ps: The 'advantage' for Peg/MOS here is that, after they could not meet their October 2001 (!)
release date they had a now 15 month lead time (half a year for 1.0beta?) in which MOS 1.0 did go
through further developement and application programmers could already start developing, as it has
always been a public beta (as opposed to OS4). Of course there are some OS4 developers that have
their AmigaOne since more than half a year too, but just not OS4.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 19 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by kml on 21-Jan-2003 20:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christophe Decanini):
Hi

Its because of the speed bump + the speed of the databus.
Its 64bits on the SE and 256bits on the XE.

kml
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 20 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Kelly Samel on 21-Jan-2003 21:57 GMT
As far as dedicated applications go remember that
the jit compiler will make all current and future
68K apps run 10-20x their current speed. Running
Imagine or ImageFX on a machine like this is
advantage enough for me and there are going to be
many new apps developed once the machines are actually
available and end up in more developers hands. I
think the speed and gfx advantages of enhancing current
programs is what most people want to begin with and the
new power apps/games will follow.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 21 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 21-Jan-2003 23:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christophe Decanini):
>I have asked some Amiga developers if they would port/code new apps for OS4/ MorphOS and their answers were mostly: "If these platforms sell well we may do it."

If this reply was meant in the sense of "seeing return for time invested, in form of sold units", they might as well have answered no.

Let's assume the best case for a developer: killer application for MOS ready, no competitor. The majority of users will not be interested in your program, because programs rarely have unlimited appeal. For example, I don't own a single game. Let's assume that a rather impressive minority of 40% of all MOS users is strongly interested in your product and can't think of anything better or more impressive. Half of them will go right ahead and download a pirated copy. That leaves you with another twenty percent of all MOS users. Let's assume that these single-mindedly want to obtain your program, and they want to pay for it. Regrettaby, fifty percent of them just can't afford it at this time, are put-off buy payment procedures, are insecure about the future, or don't buy it right now for other reasons. After all this skimming, the killer application will sell to 10% of all MOS users. If you have a GPL-minded geek, all this doesn't matter. If we are talking professional developers, things are a bit different:

A developer working a year on a killer program, full-time, probably expects to see a minimum return of 40.000 US$ for his/her labour. Typically, a developer receives 10-20% of the sales price. Simple math: the program must generate 200.000-400.000 US$ per year. Now divide this by the number of customers, 10% of the MOS user base. At this time, the MOS user base is reported to be 200 users. Ten percent is 20 customers. You will have to sell your software at 10.000 US$ per CD to make a decent living. Now let's calculate the required MOS user base for the killer application to sell at a reasonable price, like 50 US$:

((40.000 / 20) * 100) / 50) * 10 = 40.000 users (and 4000 customers among them)

I'm not sure how bright Genesi sees the future, but 40.000 MOS users appears to be a bit on the optimistic side. Many of the numbers above were of course directly pulled out of my head and have no other basis than my own experience with selling software to Amiga users. Also, it probably should be taken into account that MOS users will be so starved for PPC software and eager to buy. But the numbers are still depressing. I don't want to know the fate of a non-killer-application.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 22 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 21-Jan-2003 23:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (clhammer):
>(.....What's needed is some cutting edge applications to
>incite people to "switch".)
>
>Question: What comes first; 'programs' or 'a base of users'?

It has to be programs. It's software that sells hardware, always has been. I bought my A600 back in '92 because I saw all the games available for it and I watched some demos at a friend's house (Scoopex' Mental Hangover and Kefrens' Wayfarer) which just blew me away. And more recently I bought an XBox 'cos I wanted to play Splinter Cell after seeing it running in a games store.

Where is the software on AmigaOne (or even Pegasos, come to that) which will "blow me away"? The new platforms need investment in software development. I mean big investment, like 8 figures. As it is, the new platforms will run many old Amiga applications but this just isn't enough, as most of them have already been matched or surpassed by similar applications on other platforms. We need the legendary "killer app".
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 23 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 22-Jan-2003 00:16 GMT
If at all possible, I think Genesi and AmigaInc/Hyperion should subsidize the development of one or more applications that would attract new users. These could be an office suite or media creation apps or whatever would appeal to a wide range of customers. IIRC, Be, Inc.'s Jean Luis Gassee said once that it was probably a mistake that Be didn't bundle more useful applications, like an office productivity suite, with BeOS, to increase the attraction. I don't know if this will be possible, but the companies should think of it as an investment for future growth. The companies should also try to articulate exactly what makes their platforms special, try to differentiate them in the marketplace. Just Another Operating System doesn't make much sense business-wise, but if a niche can be identified, then developers will have more focus in its realization. The sooner these platforms can be seen not as "faster machines to run old Amiga stuff" but as future-oriented alternatives with some identifiable, measureable advantage, then the sooner critical mass can be achieved.

If full-on subsidization isn't possible, or to supplement it if it is, the OS companies should do everything they can to encourage development, such as including dev tools for free with the OS, holding devcons, working with third-party developer support groups, having contests or otherwise giving non-monetary support to individuals and companies, etc. In short, they should look at what has worked in the past and implement the best. There will also have to be a strategy to bring open-source enthusiasts on board, if possible. This might work better for Genesi as a hardware supplier (and for Eyetech), if there are problems fitting open-source developers into the proprietary OS picture.

Just a few ideas, for what they're worth. I should add that anyone wanting to get together with like-minded people to pursue some of these things could contact the Phoenix Developer Consortium, which was set up to help facilitate development in any way possible.

-- gary_c
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 24 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 22-Jan-2003 01:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Anonymous):
Apple has the 'iLife' or 'digital hub' apps that people really like, and are unique to macintosh.

Apple has incredible industrial design that wins awards...they have incredible bundled applicaitons that are highly acclaimed...they have their own line of stores...a superior easy to use OS...

and all that gives them the ability to keep a static, very low marketshare.

I'm not saying give up, its all impossible...but I don't see any market beyond selling to the Amiga faithful right now, and developing killer apps is a big waste of time and effort. The best app isn't going to do jack diddly.

I don't think the math was wrong, just the premise. You aren't selling to the user base of Amiga or PPC....no you are developing unique software and selling to the market that needs that software and they will buy both your software and the PPC hardware to get the solution they need. They won't be your traditional desktop users, and they won't care about the amiga as a desktop platform.

There is nothing unrealistic about charging $10,000 for a piece of software, I've seen companies pay that all the time. I've seen companies pay that just to put a search engine on a corporate intranet. 250,000 for a corporate data tree's.

Just because you see a program as shareware for free, doesn't mean someone else doesn't charge a quarter million for it. It depends on a lot of factors. Fact is, big business isn't interested in freeware, or a 50 dollar program, for certain types of applications. They want best of breed, and they'll pay premium to get it. No one throws away 250,000, but the fact is, it is well worth it to pay 250,000 for software, even if there is a free alternative...if the more expensive one is better supported.

All of this is possibly uninteresting, since we care about morphOS as a desktop platform and not as an ATM machine, kiosk, or STB...or the many other places you can find an embedded computer...for example an auto repair shop diagnositc system....

but a developer could make money with morphos/pegasos if they want to, and there are some advantages to putting your customer on a dedicated box.

I have one idea right now, swim meet software...this is my favorite because I've written the software already (just web based/not on morphOS)...but you could even have a hardware interface to those professional swim timers...

its a great idea, but I don't really see why I would want to do it on MorphOS, I'm just saying...if I did want to do it, it would be an idea...fact is, I'd do it on Windows like everyone else....
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 25 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 22-Jan-2003 01:27 GMT
Hm.. I can't seem to be able to wies eytech site at all.. Would have liked to know how much all these adjustments have rised board price. Those older ones (XE with 700MHZ) were over 800 euros..
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 26 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by gary_c on 22-Jan-2003 02:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (MarkTime):
MarkTime wrote:
> its a great idea, but I don't really see why I would want to do it on MorphOS, I'm just saying...if I did want to do it, it would be an idea...fact is, I'd do it on Windows like everyone else....

Yeah, that's the challenge for any alt OS: why would somebody, either developer or user, buy into a non-Windows platform. This is especially a problem when there's a hardware "dongle" for any application. I really don't know the answer to this, but it's something that these companies should be thinking about. In the case of Genesi, it seems they have plans for the Pegasos apart from the desktop, so maybe there are hardware advantages that'll get wins for them, though this'll be tough, too, it seems to me. x86 can run pretty quiet, too, etc. and comes in small form factors. Maybe if Palladium catches on big with the major players, there'll be some fallout that alt OSs can cash in on, but that's not in the near term, is it? Apart from things like that, maybe Genesi (or AmigaInc, etc.) can try to nurture some kind of niche the way Apple has, but there has to be something real behind it, not just marketing. First of all, raw performance has to be ramped up as soon as possible, so they are at least in the ball game in that way. And figure out the niche and get development happening there, then try to grow horizontally from that. Easy to describe, very difficult to do. :-/

-- gary_c
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 27 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Jan-2003 06:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (Ben Yoris):
"but nobody seems to be worried about the flagrant lack of dedicated applications."

Why to worry when there's nothing we can do for it.

There is no AmigaOS4.0.
More importantly there is no AmigaOS4.0 SDK.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 28 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Jan-2003 06:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (kml):
And larger cache?

(ofcourse Alan is optimistic rather than pessimistic, better wait for benchmark)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 29 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 22-Jan-2003 06:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (priest):
So? Write for 3.x. Preferrably use GCC. When (if) 4.0 arrives recompile it.

/Björn
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 30 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Rik Sweeney on 22-Jan-2003 08:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (Lando):
>And more recently I bought an XBox 'cos I wanted to play Splinter Cell after seeing it running in a games store.

Everyone makes mistakes. Don't beat yourself up about it.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 31 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Seldon on 22-Jan-2003 08:26 GMT
Are such prices in Euros ? Thanks.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 32 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Jan-2003 08:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (gary_c):
"Yeah, that's the challenge for any alt OS: why would somebody, either developer or user, buy into a
non-Windows platform. "

There is a population of people who do not like using Windows, and not
all of those like Linux any better.

It is only a tiny percentage of all the Windows users, but IMO quite
enough in numbers to build a profitable niche market.

Almost all would have an Amiga as a second computer, not as their only
computer; or they will have an Amiga at home as a relief from using
Windows at work.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 33 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by hgm on 22-Jan-2003 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Christophe Decanini):
< The problem is thay may not sell well if most of the developers wait and see ... :( >
That the chicken and egg story.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 34 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 22-Jan-2003 11:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (hgm):
"< The problem is thay may not sell well if most of the developers wait and see ... :( >
That the chicken and egg story. "

Yet both chickens and eggs do exist, indeed they flourish.

So don't despair yet.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 35 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 22-Jan-2003 11:28 GMT
This is another good thread with good discussions and without a lot of unnecessary flaming and mud slinging. Nice to see! What has happened? Why has things suddenly calmed down?
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 36 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by DaveMcK on 22-Jan-2003 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (takemehomegrandma):
Or should that be FUD slinging? ;-)

(This post not directed at anybody. At all. Ever)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 37 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Jan-2003 11:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (takemehomegrandma):
AI has shut (their mouth) up?
People are holding their breath?
People have better things to do?
People have given up?
...
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 38 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 22-Jan-2003 12:03 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Don Cox):
"or they will have an Amiga at home as a relief from using
Windows at work"

That's me.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 39 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 22-Jan-2003 12:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 37 (priest):
Perhaps people are just getting to tired to same old same old... And hopefully starting to make something more usefull instead. :)
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 40 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Jan-2003 12:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (JoannaK):
People have gone numb.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 41 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 22-Jan-2003 13:46 GMT
Okay, I'm putting on my asbetos underwear, and here goes.

What would be REALLY great is an Amos Professional [PPC + ATI 9700] and compiler, vesion.


And now for a little comedy, got this from the Eyetech site.
>If you have purchased the Amiga Inc Party Pack and/or The Amiga club
>membership scheme then you will also need to send a copy of your invoice to
>Amiga Inc - as a proof of purchase of your AmigaOne - in order to receive
>your rebate.

Please note "membership SCHEME"!

Amiga! One OS to rule them all!
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 42 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 22-Jan-2003 13:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Don Cox):
There is a population of people who don't like Windows, MacOS or any Unix and are neither wise enough to accept this and move on, nor talented enough to do anything useful about it. A few of those people have enough money to afford a niche system as their only computer (ie if it could do what other computers can do) an even tinier minority could persuade themselves to buy a second system, the one that "works how they want", although it would also inconveniently not actually do the things they want or need to do. These people constitute a niche market for computer operating systems & any associated specialised hardware.

World desktop market is 100 million units and is no longer growing significantly faster than GDP year on year [actually shrinking in some terms]. This niche is perhaps 0.01% of that market, or 10 000 units per year, and that's a very generous estimate. [*]

If more than one player tries to sell to this niche it instantly fragments. There are currently at least a half-dozen players who are in the market (like that awful old GEM-like thing) or want to be in the market (e.g. AInc, yellowTAB). Most of these players, including Amiga have little or no funding, lots of enthusiasm and no chance whatsoever of actually making a profit. When the companies die they are replaced, and rather often the same faces pop up in new companies also trying to sell to this same niche.

Also of course this niche is far too small to support any 3rd party activity beyond the usual bedroom coder setups. So your users run whatever comes with the OS, along with a motley collection of stuff written in someone's spare time and a lot of ported Unix software. Wait, didn't we already establish that users in this niche don't like & don't want to use Unix? So it's going to be a very unsatisfactory experience, no matter how good the OS itself may or may not be.
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 43 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 22-Jan-2003 14:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (Atheist2):
Actually, this is a great thread (and about the Pegasos too).

As a small company Genesi cannot compete with the bigger companies in the IT field. However, we do have an advantage that if we can capitalize on we have a chance to get to the next level: we have a proprietary OS and hardware platform.

Here is a simple strategic view of things as we see them:

1. We sell the Pegasos (we do this online with the main boards and CPU module upgrades, distributors mount and configure). Check out www.pegasos-usa.com.

The Pegasos is:

a. Upgradeable - G3 to G4 to Dual CPUs, etc. (IBM to release 64 bit PPC in March, after the G5 (?), and as recently announced IBM and AMD are going to do R&D together, etc.). As IBM and Motorola share the IP of the PPC, we think they will be around and competitive with Intel into the future -- especially with the move toward more mobility and less CPU power consumption.

b. Scalable - can be stacked, i.e., 1) three/four dual G4 boards in a case would give potentially +8 Ghz of CPU speed in a "desktop" machine at a very affordable price (could be a good marketing pitch -- "8GHZ on the desktop") or 2) multiple boards can be rack mounted and stacked "up to the ceiling."

c. Modifiable - it can be made smaller omitting elements to a base station for a mobile device (eclipsis or even an EyeCam). It can be turned into a Home Server that sits with the Home Entertainment Center/Theater (Psylent) or really scaling back to a simple Satellite DTV receiver (looking for a cool name, this is the project we have been contracted for -- in the end we will share the IP).

d. In the meanwhile the Pegasos becomes an increasingly stable and a viable Development Platform for the future and all the projects mentioned.

e. Finally, it offers an alternative hardware platform to various OS specific development communities, attracting innovation and creativity. It has Open Firmware (which also makes it easy for peripheral developers to develop hardware that works with the platform).

Check out http://www.osnews.com/topic.php?icon=69 and then return to the OSNews home page. This is the kind of broad market interest we need. We already have a number of LinuxPPC distros running (and Mac-on-Linux) and an agreement to port OpenBSD has been executed.

2. MorphOS

a. Starts on the Pegasos and grows increasingly functional

b. Runs on Macs by the end of 2003. This will be marketed as a special application for Mac that does not "run" on the host hard drive. We will sell the application, the OS is just there to make it work. The application could be related to a smart card with the OS in the ROM of the reader, or a CD with a cool game, etc., etc.

c. Provides the ultimate 'connectivity' through the various efforts (mobile, satellite, desktop, server, television, etc.

Together the PEGASOS and MORPHOS are the "CORE TECHNOLOGIES" of Genesi.

Then there is:

3. The next stuff...

a. Ties into smart cards (Trusted Community, Copyright Protection, etc.)

b. Morphing *everything* together!

That is the basic game plan.

The STB we are discussing is quite different than what has been attempted historically. The basic version does not have an uplink. It is very inexpensive and it is basic in form and function (but as much for less, remember the C64 slogan was: “it is not how little it costs, it is how much you get”). Interactivity comes through smart cards. This is a satellite
television receiver with some memory. The smart card is used to enable elements of the signal. Authorization levels depend on subscription or payment per event/movie (pre-paid or pay-as-you-go). Of course, a more advanced version could be a base station for the eclipsis. Then there is the Psylent (formally Pega-shush)...a 24/7 ISP bundled home server that does not have anything to do with the DMG DTV STB, but EVERYTHING to do with a "state of the art" Home Entertainment Center. Everything begins and advances WITH the Core Technologies, the Pegasos running MorphOS. We can profit from the
core technology by adapting it to various "configurations" which will allow us to build the Company and the Developer base.

When things are really stable, then there is the mass-market beginning with the sale of the OS/Application to Mac Users...then the hardware...etc.

NOW, take all this and combine it with some of the recent ideas we have been discussing with the Phoenix Developer Consortium. Genesi and Phoenix could initiate a VA Software/SourceForge relationship. What we have here is much more than Linux. Genesi owns the IP of the hardware AND the OS. We can leverage off both Open Source and Closed Source virtues while still capturing the valuable hardware revenue. This can be shared with members of Phoenix as Distributors/Integrators of a platform that is INITIALLY oriented to TECHNICALLY oriented people anyway. The sale of Pegasos machines configured with various potential OS's seems to be a unique revenue producing opportunity and MAYBE a "new" way of "selling" the computer...like a multilevel marketing scheme...dingdong...its not the Avon Lady! It is the Phoenix Man with your Pegasos! We could develop a whole tiered system...when you recruit ten Phoenix Distributors you become a Phoenix Flyer! OK, we will not get too carried away, but you get the idea...

We are just brain storming, but using the support web site to "answer" the "silly" questions, while setting up Phoenix members in a VA Software/SourceForge like relationship that evolves into unit sales and then maybe System Integrators/Service Providers (like the old LAN/WAN businesses) could be a cool stroke to capture widespread interest once the publicity effort kicks into gear...;-)

What do you think?

Sincerely,

R&B
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 44 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 22-Jan-2003 14:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (Anonymous):
Add 10,000 to the amount of people who remember and want that "Amiga Experience" again. If the price weren't so high, and the MHz discrepency wasn't as large, either, not to mention not using DDR memory, then we could actually shoot for 500,000. At the state it's in, I think 50,000, isn't unrealistic, in about 1 and half years from when AOS 4 is in users hands, though.

Amiga! Onward and upward!
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 45 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by SlimJim on 22-Jan-2003 14:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (bbrv):
It's vastly OT and even plain rude to post this in a thread about Eyetech and their products.

Your PR plan is scrupulously driven through, I give you that, but I doubt it is very wise to try to
snatch the attention away at EVERY opportunity you get, mr Buck.

It would be more prudent to post this as a forum post, or as a thread on amiga.org.
.
SlimJim
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 46 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 22-Jan-2003 14:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (bbrv):
It's strange that you replied to me, me being a rabid AMIGA adherent, but, curiously, didn't you probably just break some kind of non-disclosure agreement, or reveal secret marketing strategies?

Amiga! So secret even the people behind it don't know what's happening!
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 47 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Björn Hagström on 22-Jan-2003 14:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (SlimJim):
Well someone had to make this into a bad thread, it's not like it was unexpected. Might as well be bbrv doing it.

/Björn
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 48 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 22-Jan-2003 14:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (SlimJim):
OK, SlimJim, if that is the consensus, please excuse us. It just look like a good discussion and mentioned Pheonix, etc...:-)

Christian, if you want to move the post somewhere else, we submit to your Moderation!

We posted enough on amiga.org today so ANN is just fine thank you...;-)

Best regards,
R&B
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 49 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 22-Jan-2003 14:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (bbrv):
>pegasos
>a. Upgradeable - G3 to G4 to Dual CPUs, etc. (IBM to release 64 bit PPC in March, after the G5 (?), and as recently announced IBM and AMD are going to do R&D together, etc.). As IBM and Motorola share the IP of the PPC, we think they will be around and competitive with Intel into the future -- especially with the move toward more mobility and less CPU power consumption.

But people are still waiting for the first CPU alternative to appear...

>b. Scalable - can be stacked, i.e., 1) three/four dual G4 boards in a case would give potentially +8 Ghz of CPU speed in a "desktop" machine at a very affordable price (could be a good marketing pitch -- "8GHZ on the desktop") or 2) multiple boards can be rack mounted and stacked "up to the ceiling."

I would like to see an example of how it is special in this aspect. As the CPU and GFX card is in vertical position I think the "stack" will be pretty high.... (I compare it to our 84 CPU Xeon stack)


>MorphOS
>a. Starts on the Pegasos and grows increasingly functional

I think people are waiting MorphOS for the Classic PPC Amigas. When will that happen?

>b. Runs on Macs by the end of 2003. This will be marketed as a special application for Mac that does not "run" on the host hard drive. We will sell the application, the OS is just there to make it work. The application could be related to a smart card with the OS in the ROM of the reader, or a CD with a cool game, etc., etc.

So no powerbook with MorpOS?


...
>What do you think?

I sincerely hope you do not loose focus with all that and forget MOS fans like AI did with AOS fans.

But hey, if everything goes smoothly for you ... how about buying out the "Amiga" from it's current keeper...

What is your sales target of pegasos motherboards for this year?

br
priest
Eyetech server change and new G3 A1. : Comment 50 of 94ANN.lu
Posted by Paul H on 22-Jan-2003 14:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 43 (bbrv):
?? - This is a bit off topic isn't it?
Anonymous, there are 94 items in your selection [1 - 50] [51 - 94]
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