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[Rant] Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4ANN.lu
Posted on 06-Jun-2003 11:32 GMT by takemehomegrandma114 comments
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Some days ago there were a thread on amiga.org that discussed the future; who of the alternatives in the Amiga OS market would be the dominant winner? I have thought about that and come to a conclusion of which you can read below. This text also involves the Amiga brand, the future of A1 and OS4, as well as OS4 on Pegasos.

Let’s begin with takemehomegrandmas encyclopedia of computer platform creation. :-)

A computer platform is a complex puzzle consisting of many pieces:

To get going you first need the most basic pieces: an operating system (MorphOS) and hardware (Pegasos). These pieces are the very core foundation. Then you need the application/games piece (Aminet, Commercial Amiga/MOS software, and the Super Bundle), but in order to get that piece you have to have the developers piece (Phoenix, Sceners, The Community, etc), but in order to get that piece you must begin to lay down the first pieces of the puzzle (Betatester1/2, Early versions of MorphOS, SDK) and drawing all kinds of creative people towards the platform by making the whole thing visible through the "visability piece" (Visiting trade shows, Public Reviews (OS News, etc), Press and TV, Spreading the word on the community forums). The previously mentioned "developers piece" is essential, and the end result will benefit if this piece is as big as possible (Bring as many other OS'es as possible to the platform and enjoy the cross-fertilization).

Laying this part (the initial construction) of the puzzle is a bit of "which came first, the chicken or the egg". All the pieces are necessary but each piece rely on the other ones allready being there. Therefore you have look at this part of your "puzzling" as a circle of events. But it's not enough to just identify the pieces. To lay the puzzle you need to get organized (PriceWaterhouseCoopers sets up a corporate structure), a great deal of money (Genesi), management (Genesi, Professional external management consultants (can't remember their name)), active support from happy community members (us enthusiastic MOS followers ;-) ), and someone holding it all together and on the right course (BBRV).

After "circling the events" for a while, you will have a solid base for your platform. This is not the end goal. This is the beginning. Let's call this base the "input market" which is a melting pot of community (developers, enthusiasts, alternative computer users, etc), technology, creativity, fun, and business opportunities for everyone interested in making a buck. The end goal, where the big money is and where everyones creative efforts will be channeled to, will be the "output market", and this is the second (and most interesting) part of the puzzle.

What is the "output market" then? Is it the Wintel workstation market? Is it the 1985 computer market that we all remember with joy as the "Amiga era"? I'm afraid that the latter is gone forever (or rather: it became the todays alternative computer market, one of the components of our "input market"). And I think it won't be the wintel kind of market either. That market is overcrowded and is actually shrinking. The MHz race is over. The companies there are in chrisis because they are stuck in the old way of thinking. The IT world is changing now, into something that many calls the "convergence market". My guess is that the future end-user "computing" products is yet to be formed. They might come in several shapes. Many peoples reasoning of "the future of the Amiga/Pegasos" is based on the assumption that there will forever be the same structure of Platforms and "Computers" as we know them today. But what if the future computing products needs to be more context driven, with focus on the customers needs rather than on the actual tower box itself? The computer market has up to now been product oriented. This is about to change, and I think that is obvious.

I think it's amusing to read comments like "Genesi have no future since they only sold 600 units", "how can you expect any developer to be excited over a 600 people userbase", "How can you sell your hardware so cheap", "How can you *give* away the OS" and stuff like that. Hilarious! But these kind of comments is made from the assumption that the "input market" is the final goal. And to many of us people "living" in this input market, it *might be* the end goal and the only important thing. And there is nothing wrong with that. Have fun! :-) But one has to remember that to keep the fire under this melting cup alive (that is: to keep bringing in interesting developers' technology as the PegasosTwo among other, future, devices) one has to succeed on the "output market". STB's, the Psylent, the mobile Eclipsis and various incarnations of these (and other) devices will be a key. That's where the future is secured, not by selling 600 units of Pegasos (or even three times that many, if you know what I mean ;-) ).

And since the OS and the developers' hardware are such key pieces of the puzzle, and the future dollars from the output market is *so totally dependent* on them, don't you think it makes sense to make it as easy as possible for the community in the "input market" to get ahold of them? To make the obstacles to join the evolution as small as possible, so to say? If you look at the OS, it's just one of many components that makes any of the products on the output market, and it only makes sense in combination with the others. Therefore you could make it totally free for the input market. Heck, upload the OS to Kazaa, DC++, and the corporate website to make it *really* easy for people to download it. The wider spread the OS is on developer desktops in the input market, the better for the future convergence products on the output market. Any dongles in this context is utter madness. So is any $8000 motherboards. That only makes sense if you look at the input market as the final goal (and what’s the future in that way of thinking?).

There are (rather: were) one similarity between Amiga Inc (2 years ago) and Genesi. They both see (AInc: saw) business opportunities in the computer convergence market. But the similarities stops there.

Amiga Inc started out in the peak of the dot-com era. They wrote a busines plan with a lot of hype (you only have to look back in time a little on the net to see what I mean. Everything they said was spoken in "dot-com"-ish) and got a Venture Capitalist to fund a company. They licensed some IP from tao (their view of entering this market), and then they invested a lot of time and all that money in ... well, nothing!! Towards the end they decided to try another approach and handed over the AmigaOS to Hyperion and the exclusive right to Amiga branded hardware to Eyetech. That is, they split the key puzzle pieces and gave them away in two separate directions, each by itself. That's all Amiga Inc really achieved in those years. What remains is two separate pieces of a potential puzzle.

Genesi has begun to lay the first part of the puzzle described above. They have released products on the input market and done a lot of other things, but IMO they have not reached the "start line" yet. It will take some more of that "circleing" to get there, but it's no doubt they will get there, because they have allready secured all the pieces under the same umbrella, and they have everything it takes to finish it. They have left the locker room, entered the track, and is beginning to warm up serously before the race. But that doesn't stop them from allready prepearing the route for the second part of the puzzle, the part when the race actually begins.

This part of the puzzle is still kind of vague for us in the community, but some information has been released some day ago. It's about the output market. There has to be some products like hardware (STB's, mobile devices like Eclipsis, etc), OS (MorphOS), Applications and games (Phoenix, Atari), and whatever input Nolan Bushnell and his www.uwink.com brings. There also has to be distribution channels (Atari, Plexuscom, Genesi resellers, etc), a strong brand (Atari), and capital (Atari, Genesi). This part of the puzzle is essential for securing the future development of "our" platform. And IMO it looks kind of promising :-).

Some people also seems to think that OS4 and the A1 are competitors to MorphOS and the Pegasos. I think not! Remember, the race is on the *output market*. If Amiga Inc had played their card differently a couple of years back, then perhaps there would have been a "red puzzle" slowly materializing for this market by now. But that is not the case. Two lonely, isolated pieces of an abandoned puzzle is materializing.

The A1 piece is such an uninteresting piece of hardware that it won't even succeed on the *input* market. OK, some fanatics will buy it because it is said to be the only way to run OS4 at decent speed. That's it!

OS4, will only be sold to some CSPPC owners and the fanatics that buy the A1. That's it! But OS4 has far better chances to succeed on the alternative computer market (our "input market") than the A1, *IF* Hyperion manage to get the OS running on some interesting hardware.

Some people thinks that Genesi should pay money and accept the conditions to get an "Amiga" license. That won't happen, there is no reason for them to do that. The brand has been dead for 10 years or so, except in our little part of the alternative computer market. And now there is this new Atari plan, where the brand only seems to be minor part. Sure the Amiga brand could mean something to get more momentum on the *input* market; more developers attracted to the platform. But they allready have momentum, and the interest for the platform is increasing anyway, much thanks to all the OS'es that's being ported.

It lies within *Hyperions* interest to get their OS running on interesting hardware, and this is nothing that Genesi should be paying *them* for (or rather: the Amiga Inc corpse)! If they can't get their OS to run on interesting hardware, then nobody will use their OS (other than some hundred fanatics). The CSPPC is *NOT* interesting. It's old and slow now. RIP. The A1 is *NOT* interesting, it's hilarious price tag is only one of it's problems when compared to the PegasosTwo. RIP. Hyperion is trapped and their OS effort is riscing to suffocate in it's incubator. But they *could still* try to make their effort pay off on the alternative computer market ("our" input market) via the more sensible PegasosTwo platform. I'm sure they are more than welcome to do that. Lot's of OS'es are/will be running on that platform. The platform is allready gaining attention from international press (even TV) and it will attract all kind of "alternative geeks" (;-)). The resulting cross-fertilization will benefit everyone involved, and everyone is invited. :-)

And I'm sure that Hyperion would really have done this if it would have been possible. But here is the problem. Remember that Eyetech has exclusive right to Amiga branded hardware (but only the HW), so if Hyperion would bring the amiga brand to the Pegasos hardware there would be a trademark infringement/contract violation. This trademark split is what stopping OS4 on Pegasos, not Hyperion and certainly not Genesi (OS4 on Pegasos would only boost the creativity on the Pegasos platform, *and* OS4). The A1 could have benefitted from running MorphOS some six months ago too. It would have been a lot easier for Eyetech to sell that board with an Amiga related OS instead of Linux. But that would have been impossible for the same reason (Hyperion holds the right to the Amiga brand for the OS).

The A1 and OS4 are floating alone on a big ocean. Amiga Inc was planning to lay a puzzle using these two pieces (among lots of others), but didn't want them to start puzzling too much on their own (*must* be a threesome). So AInc tied their hands behind their backs through the conditions of the deal and tied them firmly to their own body. The three depend on each other. Problem is, Amiga Inc is not floating anymore. And they are still tied together. It would be nice if Hyperion would find a way to get around this. I am not particulary interested in the OS4 myself (many of the "reds" think that all Pegasos owners are dying to get OS4; perhaps some, but not all!), but I would try it out among all the other OS'es on this platform if it became available!

When amiga.org had their interview with Ben Hermans, I submitted some questions to find out Bens view of the future, how they would succeed, how anyone thinking about investing time and money into products for their OS would be rewarded. I wanted to know something about their strategies. To me, the future (in the "output market") is more interesting and fundamental than wether the OS will have a CDDA filesystem upon it's initial release (and that kind of questions). Unfortunately, my questions were not forwarded to Ben (perhaps another time?). I asked the same questions to BBRV, and it will be interesting to see their answeres (if the questions gets forwarded, BTW, what happened to that interview?).

OK, debate! :-)

Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 51 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Some Farker on 06-Jun-2003 16:59 GMT
Grow up kids; it's a computer, not the future of mankind.

Sheesh.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 52 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Vajra on 06-Jun-2003 17:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Some Farker):
Calls to make Amiga 4.0 available for Genesi’s box are just as absurd as the reverse (MorphOs for AmigaOne). People who think this will happen are kidding themselves. Neither will ever happen. These companies are in competition; why should Hyperium support a company that is trying to bury it? I know some believe that Genesi wants OS4.0 to exist, but nothing could be further from the truth. Bill is a shrewd businessman and anyone can see that Amiga 4.0 ultimately, as a standalone non-integrated OS, takes subtracts from his profits. Genesi has publicly (and actively) been trying to sink Amiga and, if not take the Amiga name, retire it. If they get access to 4.0 it will either be sunk or turned into an application or a skin for MorphOs. Those people who bought a Peagasos knew what kind of niche they were getting into and can’t pretend that they ever expected to run Amiga 4.0 on their machines, but I doubt they really care.

On another note:

The two OSs should be allowed to develop their own user bases. But why does everything that is made for the Amiga have to be made for MorphOs, and visa versa. What makes a platform interesting is diversity and unique products. So people shouldn’t get too upset when a particular product is only available on one or the other.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 53 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 18:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Some Farker):
Tow grow up is the same has not being interested or excited?
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 54 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 06-Jun-2003 19:18 GMT
Just speaking for myself and nobody else - as a Pegasos owner: I don't care about AOS4 (or most likely any other versions that should follow but might not). I know that MorphOS has future-leaning design, solid underpinnings and some great surface, and will continue to progress there and fill in the in-betweens where it is obvious it is needed. I'm pretty confident that other parts of the Genesi business plan will allow MorphOS work to continue with more resources at its disposal because it won't be dependent on near-term sales in a withered market.

I see the Pegasos going to a second generation already, so I almost have to be thankful to Mai for giving us a lemon, which really made for some great lemonade thanks to the additonal help of April. Now Pegasos II will to become a more sophisticated drink, one that will be more alluring to a wider base. The price point is better too. This is progress, this is understanding about being competitive.

The mercy sex syndrome is just not healthy, and I hope we can get away from it, merci? I think the two items will make for an attractive package that can go out into a wider world and get laid. Multiple OSes and partnerships to aim at larger sales markets are good calling cards too : }
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 55 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 06-Jun-2003 20:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 52 (Vajra):
So they can sell more software and make money? Their game ports as well as OS sales.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 56 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 06-Jun-2003 20:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (greenboy):
I think is bit strange not to look at otter options, it not that you have to get OS4.0 is more about comparing options for me that is, even if I must admit not looking to hard on the MorphOS option guess I made up my picture of the current state what it has to offer, to go inn to more details about the product, at the current time that is, I will not force my views on MorphOS subject as it will not help.

I think bit of side tracking to talk about 2en generation Pegasos as this updates where needed any way, I think you Se new Amiga Computers will appear for every Pegasus challenge.

Is for planing well for the future on AmigaOS4.x I think there is to scenarios

1st.

AmigaInc goes bust, Hyperion continue development, whit out the support of the AmigaInc partner and the road map to AmigaOS5.0 whit AmigaDE is no more, Hyperion are free to developer OS by it self and support what every system they like with out contract limits. the OS is focused on implementing and supporting common game api's so that otter main income sources can be satisfied, AmigaOS become a gaming system once more.

2en.

AmigaInc do not go bust, AmigaOS4.x transform it self to home user system with Java,SDK and AmigaDE support, new partners depending on there level of interest for Amiga IP, the future bring Amiga laptops as well as smaller faster home computers, Amiga brand becomes tied up in different biz plans and hardware and software technical solutions, as this what AmigaInc is all about planing and funding and out-sourcing to how ever can do the job for them.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 57 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 06-Jun-2003 21:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (greenboy):
Greenboy, unless you're willing to prove the need of April (and the existance of the bugs) i suggest you stay clear from that subject, i've had it with people saying it has bugs, but when asked for more details awnser that "they can't, not allowed to, don't feel like it" etc etc.

A PO'ed Amon_Re
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 58 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by AnonX on 06-Jun-2003 21:02 GMT
This has got to be the best post on ANN for .... ever?

Its been something that has been on my mind for a while, how to create a viable growing and sustainable market for the next gen amiga`s. A strategy for toppling the M$ machine is one iv spent way too much time thinking about. I still have no answers, but belive that a start must be made somewere and that some strategy MUST be formulated to get even 5% of the world market. OS4 and MOS provide a start but an investment in giving users what they can do already eg play the latest games must be made in order for the new amiga market to even be equal to the small (in worldwide terms) Mac market.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 59 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 06-Jun-2003 21:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (Kjetil):
>I think is bit strange not to look at otter options

Kjetil, I made it clear when I mentioned that I do not care about AOS4 that it was for me personally, and not suggesting that my interest had to do with future policy. I've looked at other options from both a personal and a strategic perspective and I'm HAPPY with MorphOS. And what I know of how it fits in to Genesi plans, I feel that I will continue to be happy with what it becomes and what it will do. For my legacy desires it is already doing well, and for new native software I think it will meet my needs and then some.

But hey, I may end up with a multiple-boot machine to run one of the other OSes slated for the Pegasos, or already running on it.


>I think bit of side tracking to talk about 2en generation Pegasos as this updates where needed any way

It is not side-tracking. It is very relevant to MorphOS development, and therfore my personal satisfaction as a user. Later in your post you present a couple of scenarios which seem every bit as sidetracked, BTW. So perhaps you are either mistaken, or perhaps they don't belong there ; } ...But I would not begrudge that, because really that is the way conversation tends to work as we make sense of relationships and interactions.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 60 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 06-Jun-2003 21:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Amon_Re):
Don't you think that the fact that Genesi spent A HELL of a lot for making the
April2 is proof? They sold the Peg1 at a loss cause of the April2 and had to
replace all boards. Don't you think that of it was a Pegasos problem they would
just fix it on the PCB itself? It would cost a lot less.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 61 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 06-Jun-2003 22:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 57 (Amon_Re):
>Greenboy, unless you're willing to prove the need of April (and the existance of the bugs) i suggest you stay clear from that subject,

It isn't a very pleasant subject for sure. Because of the ire that often arises I considered not mentioning it; I don't like to see the fracases. And yet, Genesi spent an incredible amount of time, money (and travel) trying to find solutions they totally believed needed to be there. I'm entirely certain they did not want product timelines stressed, and the slippage of sales/numbers - nor did they want to ultimately bear the cost involved with putting April on the boards.

Once they found the situation untenable, though, that led to a decision to use a chip that was more expensive than Mai's. At that point I was glad; I was tired of seeing the excrutiating frustration behind the scenes, and relieved to see it drop to nothing almost immediately. So in retrospect the gap in product availability seems to be worth the effort to have a second-gen product to the map quicker than was originally intended - a product with much better performance and features to boot. Also, the Peg II timeline seems to be more than realistic, judging by the happy vibes that come my way from Genesi each time the subject comes up. So...


>i've had it with people saying it has bugs, but when asked for more details awnser that "they can't, not allowed to, don't feel like it" etc etc.

I'm sorry, but I don't have the technical expertise or the facilities to prove what is wrong. But I have noticed that when solid facts - or ones at least that seem to support that all is not well in Mailand - have been presented they appear to be countered or dismissed anyway, by those who have an invested interest elsewhere (unless you count other companies that have also dropped Mai).

So I'm not so concerned whether there is proof that everybody from everywhere will admit has veracity now that Mai has become a footnote in Genesi history, and the stress it put on Genesi as a business has been absorbed.


>A PO'ed Amon_Re

Imagine how much more *PO* came out for Genesi: engineering time that had to be sidetracked to show Mai engineers what had been found, development time for what to them has seemed the best possible workaround, dealing with Mai's assurances that paid-for chips would be delivered and seeing the delivery dates slip again and again. Cost cost cost!

A company does not undergo all this for grins and giggles. It is the stuff that can kill companies. It's remarkable in my estimation that Genesi has been able to take a bad situation and turn it around - into an advancement with better pricing and stronger legs!
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 62 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 06-Jun-2003 22:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (greenboy):
I would note, if it were not for the bugs and the need for April, the Pegasos would have been shipping commercially back in June of LAST year. 6 months of delays in correcting these bugs is not something I'd consider a trivial matter. if the bugs, in whatever form they are, were not there, this would have been a dumb scenario for Genesi at that point.

Whom do you know decides "I'll wait a half-year to be selling machines when I could be selling tomorrow." anyways?

Having seen a BT, that is non-April'd Pegasos, I know those bugs exist, and the cause of it. How do I know? Because I am a guy that can make a top-end Athlon scream in pain through the torture tests I put it through.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 63 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Some Farker on 06-Jun-2003 23:31 GMT
"Calls to make Amiga 4.0 available for Genesi’s box are just as absurd as the reverse (MorphOs for AmigaOne). People who think this will happen are kidding themselves. Neither will ever happen."

I concur. There's too much bad blood between the two parties and the raving and drooling fanboys 'round the 'net (they are, after all, the only "amiga users" left - I guess I should also say "Pegasos users" as well...)

"These companies are in competition; why should Hyperium support a company that is trying to bury it?"

True that.


"I know some believe that Genesi wants OS4.0 to exist, but nothing could be further from the truth. Bill is a shrewd businessman and anyone can see that Amiga 4.0 ultimately, as a standalone non-integrated OS, takes subtracts from his profits."

Indeed. Furthermore, when/if OS4 comes out I think it's going to outsell the Gensi OS by a long, long shot. From what I can tell over here on the sidelines, people are buying Morph-os out of frustration at not having a "next generation" operating system for their Amiga. It's weird, though. Doing that is like getting BeOS and BeUAE ... which, considering how much cheaper an OEM x86 board is (and faster, and better), it would be a superior option to running Morph-OS. Not to speak of Linux or Windows (or MacOS but since like AOS4 and Morph-OS it is tied to an inferior and slower hardware platform that's one-sourced, it doesn't factor in).

"Genesi has publicly (and actively) been trying to sink Amiga and, if not take the Amiga name, retire it."

You said a mouthful. While Amiga, Inc's policies and attitudes are pretty screwy, the actions of Genesi have insured that were I to make the leap backwards to a PPC-POP motherboard, it would *not* repeat *not* be the Pegasos.

"If they get access to 4.0 it will either be sunk or turned into an application or a skin for MorphOs."

If I understand what you're saying, you're suggesting that the Amiga's operating system, if bought whole from the developers currently working on it, wouldbe shitcanned in favor of Morph-OS, correct? If that's what you're suggesting, I agree wholeheartedly. OS4 on a Pegasus board, however, would just mean that people would have a less expensive alternative to the hideously overpriced A1xeg3/g4 boards. And that can only be a good thing.

"Those people who bought a Peagasos knew what kind of niche they were getting into and can’t pretend that they ever expected to run Amiga 4.0 on their machines, but I doubt they really care. "

Given what I've read of the attitude of the Morph-OS crowd, I'm inclined to agree with you.

Should I buy an alternative system like this (as opposed to a classic Mac or running Linux on one of my x86 boxes), I think it would be OS4 - on whatever platform I could get it the cheapest on. If I *really* wanted OS4 (were it ever available) and the platform it was available for was the A1, then so be it. Given a choice between it and the Pegasus, I'd go the latter route for obvious financial reasons.

The reason *I* would never use or endorse Morph OS is that it has as little to do with the Amiga as the man-in-the-moon. People (correctly) lambasted Amiga, Inc. when they sprang forth from Amino during the .com springtime for using idiotic and empty terms like "Spirit of the Amiga!" and "Same programming values!" (values in terms of performance, smaller codebase, etc.) People who call Morph-os the next logical step forward for an Amiga user...well, I view them with the same cynicism.

Looking at the so-called OS3.5 and 3.9 revisions of the Amiga's operating system, and reading what I have about them, I find that all they were by and large is software bundles and minor kernel hacks on top of 3.1 - the last fully developed Amiga OS revision (if indeed the same can't be said of 3.1 versus 3.0 - but there were significant OS revisions between 3.1 and 3.0 that actually required a kickstart change, so the argument *can't* be made).

As a result, developing something from "hack soup" and calling it a new OS is...well, silly. It'd be like Microsoft calling WindowsNT 4.0 SP5 "Windows NT5"...which, they did not.

Had Genesi gotten ahold of 3.1 and developed an Amiga-OS compatible OS from it and gone from there, I would feel so that *that* OS was the best choice. But it isn't. If I want the Amiga's operating system again - and I don't mean "Amiga" in terms of anything regarding the now-defunct company in Washington state - I'll use the Amiga's operating system. Not a dead-end OS running an Amiga Emulator, and developed by a cult of personality and surrounded by the circled wagons of rabid fanboys.

Yes, yes yes. I can practically hear their tinny voices over my PC speakers now, yelling about how Amiga is a name cult and so on and so forth. But I don't *care* about Amiga, Inc. They're a pack of idiots who couldn't manage a piss up in a brewery. What I do care about is an OS built on the bedrock of OS3.1, by people with the source code of *that* OS in hand. Not something developed from the mud of shareware and Kickstart patches that was OS3.5 and 3.9.

That's the Amiga I care about. And the conjoined "bbrv" can't offer it to me. If Hyperion decides to buy a Pegasus board and develop OS4 for it - fantastic. If not, that's their business. I don't much care for Hyperion either, but they're building an OS that I'd actually use as opposed to Morph-os. This is not a case of pointing at something and saying "Well, so it's only an Amiga if you call it that, is that what you're saying?"

It's painfully obvious that the Amiga is what it is, and that is *not* a Morph-os product. Sorry. I realize that's a lot to try and get your heads around, but that's it. And it *is not* an emotional issue with me. It's a simple, logical one. OS4 will be an OS which will run retargetable apps that support AHI - from the A1000 days (although I honestly don't know of any A1000 apps like that!) to present. Morph-os is a bunch of hacks. That's how I view it.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 64 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 07-Jun-2003 00:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Some Farker):
>From what I can tell over here on the sidelines, people are buying Morph-os out of frustration at not having a "next generation" operating system for their Amiga

Not so much of the feedback I get indicates that the frustration is as big a factor as that. I could be wrong about future buyers being swayed by such an inclination, but right now a lot of the buyers like the potential and the actuality.


>The reason *I* would never use or endorse Morph OS is that it has as little to do with the Amiga as the man-in-the-moon. People (correctly) lambasted Amiga, Inc. when they sprang forth from Amino during the .com springtime for using idiotic and empty terms like "Spirit of the Amiga!" and "Same programming values!"

MorphOS: Amiga-compatible APIs, an OS laid out at the user level much like an Amiga, one that people can run Amiga software on, an OS programmed by people with extensive Amiga backgrounds, a GUI based on a product that most Amigans are familiar with ... Yeah, sure, that is alien conceptually, built around alien technology. Right. Not to mention that MorphOS was started largely BECAUSE the people involved wanted to make sure they would have a modern, compatible improvement on the "Amiga" around because it didn't look like anybody else was going to provide that - written for themselves, their friends, or the community.

Pretty big gap between that and Tao's stuff in architecture and methodology, then taken and touted by a company whose CEO had zilch experience in the Amiga computer use department, and whose CTO didn't have much time in on the Amiga scene compared to the MorphOS guys {not saying that THAT is bad, but your attempt to draw parallels between the two is capable of passing gallstones the size of boulders with nary a wheeze ; }


>I realize that's a lot to try and get your heads around, but that's it.

Actually it's a lot to WANT in one's head, but it's pretty easy to see how some would want it in theirs ; }


>And it *is not* an emotional issue with me. It's a simple, logical one. OS4 will be an OS which will run retargetable apps that support AHI - from the A1000 days (although I honestly don't know of any A1000 apps like that!) to present. Morph-os is a bunch of hacks. That's how I view it.

AHI? I'll have to ask Martin Blom about that since he is in Phoenix ; }

...It's a long shot to call what you wrote logical. Like most other diatribes from either side of the fence it is indeed emotional, bootstrapped by rationalizations. Like most of us with our own biases, you want to believe it is only logical and rational, I'm sure... Growing up with Spock on Star Trek musta done dat ; }

As for sales figures, the market will decide that. Just saying AOS4 will outsell MorphOS (and nary a company business plan indicator or market fact to this date to pitch that) will not make it so (or vice versa) - though if one considers that Genesi considers MorphOS a free product, included with every Pegasos - well, that could somewhat help what you say to be true ; }

We'll see.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 65 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Nate Downes on 07-Jun-2003 00:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Some Farker):
By your definition, MorphOS is a next-generation Amiga, for it does run RTG Amiga apps w/ AHI.

Calling it hackish says you don't even understand what it is.

MorphOS began by using a kickstart ROM in emulation. The programmers, using their skill, replaced every component of that ROM without the need for the source. That I call skill, but also simply following the RKM's. So that now, MOS has a clean-room reimplimentation of the AmigaOS that is 100% PowerPC native. None of the other AOS-derivitives can claim that save possibly AROS.

How about you try it out before you lambast it? Come to one of the MOS shows that are being planned. You might be in for a nice surprise. If you don't like it after trying it, hey, at least I tried, but at least try the finished product first, ok?
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 66 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by color of the sun on 07-Jun-2003 02:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Some Farker):
"Doing that is like getting BeOS and BeUAE ... which, considering how much cheaper an OEM x86 board is (and faster, and better), it would be a superior option to running Morph-OS."

Well, you should get a clue about what you are talking. I didn't even bother to read the rest of your post, because of this uninformed bullshit.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 67 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by CodeSmith on 07-Jun-2003 03:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (color of the sun):
...and things returned back to normal.

I must say I do prefer it when you guys bicker, it's creepy otherwise ;P
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 68 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Vajra on 07-Jun-2003 04:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Some Farker):
An objective response. One doesn’t have to be a "fan" of Amiga Inc. to see the problems (with MorphOs and Amiga Inc. for that matter). These are some of the reasons that MorphOs doesn’t interest me. It would be nice to have cheaper hardware options, but there is a better chance of a another third party making something, vs. ever seeing 4.0 on a Pegasos. Personally, I’d like to have Amiga 4.0 running next to a PC with AROS, but I could see several more useful OSs running before I’d consider running MorphOs as it stands.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 69 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 07-Jun-2003 05:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 67 (CodeSmith):
Thanks for this discussion. It was interesting and we will read it a second and maybe a third time over the weekend. We can't remember everything to respond to be here are just a tidbits for some Falker...

Take all this in contrast to PegPong...:-) This will be more like one complete PegPowerPost! :-)

Quote from Martin Blom when we ask him how he liked the Pegasos:

Honestly, it's a masterpiece. Very slick hardware, very quite,
OpenFirmware is great and I love the case. :-)

MorphOS boots in seconds, just like AmigaOS does on my A4000. It's
like coming home again! Really, I compared my PC and the Pegasos. By
the time I had selected Windows 2000 from the GRUB menu, Ambient was
already loaded and ready. Simply incredible.

MorphOS has come a long, long way since I saw it last time, but as
expected it still has a long way to go until it's ready. (I've had a
few lockups etc.) I look forward to the upcoming 1.4 release!

<snip>

Martin is no hack and neither are the guys working on 1.4...

None of us wanted the situation to develop as it did. We could have done alot with 3.1 and proposed to do it in the Fall of 2000. We still have the daily emails with Bill from that time. The situation became intolerable because Amiga Inc. did not understand then or now what THMG described at the beginning of this thread. We wanted to bring the classic OS along! It did not work out. We certainly wasted alot of time trying!

Does this remind you of another period? The ppc.library vs WarpOS "wars" killed a lot of Amiga PPC development because developers didn't know which system to move towards. They were put off by the FUD being spread about competing systems and often they decided to wait for WarpOS to get something better rather than to start working with ppc.library right away. Clearly, we have not wanted this to situation to be repeated. Again, we have the "the Name" conflict (remember, WarpOS was for complicated reasons was labeled with "the Name"). In 2002, we were fighting against a branded "future" product. It is different now for other reasons, but it seemed the same situation was developing again...during the most crucial time, WarpOS wasn't very good, but people did not care, because they "knew" that it "would become better than ppc.library." We can be fairly sure that OS4 will not be "good" (as MorphOS was) from the start - nevertheless as we have seen (and still see), many people will be certain it will "soon" outperform MorphOS...(thanks Johan for the help with that...;-) )

In 2003, things are much, much different for many reasons. You can start by reading again what TMHG wrote and do the analysis of the other "side" yourself.

We *have been* trying to eliminate this bitter conflict between the two "sides." The truth is we have -- it is just that some of you have still not figured that out yet. There is no competition. We are moving up in the BUNDESLEAGUE and they have not even put a team to field together! Genesi operates fully independently from anything done by the other side. We are one Team. The other guys are not. It is just a simple fact that they are not as organized, have conflicting economic objectives and need resources and talent on the hardware side which they clearly do not have. Say whatever you want Amon_Re the Teron is a failure because of the Articia. Too bad for Eyetech. It costs too much and it IS defective. It cannot be sold to anyone other than "fanatics." That is why Terra Soft dropped it. We know it is controversial to say that, but deal with it. It is the truth.

So where do we go from here? We can and will sell to Eyetech (or anyone else) the Pegasos II mainboards. Our recommendation for those interested is to bring OS4 to the market standard. OpenFIrmware so there is interoperability -- not just for the Pegasos, but for many other reasons as Martin indicated above. We are happy to support the OS4 effort by providing a Pegasos II to the OS4 Team. If you read ANN, you know we proposed the same thing a year ago. We do NOT want or need an Amiga license for OS4 on the Pegasos, but that does not precluded anyone one else from doing it. Get your game together guys! :-)

Here is a hint about something else which may help some of you understand the whole Atari thing better -- ready for this? The BeBox will BE back! Guess what will be inside? Understand better now?

Can you guys please figure this all out and put together an Amiga II effort together. Ben, if you were as smart as we thought you were you find some hardware guys to do this for you and build something new yourself on the ruins of Amiga Inc.

Have a nice weekend!

Best regards to all of you for keeping the discussion friendly and thanks to TMHG for getting this all started so well!!! :-D

Raquel and Bill
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 70 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Taz69 on 07-Jun-2003 08:42 GMT
Sounds like we need a 3rd party to buy the Peggy2 boards from Genesi, License AOS4 and provide the users with choice.

Could be a win, win, win situation

Genesi sell more Peggy 2 boards
Hyperion sell more copies of AOS4
Amiga get their licensing fees
and users will hopefully get the option to pick and choose between the options available.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 71 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 07-Jun-2003 08:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Nate Downes):
"MorphOS began by using a kickstart ROM in emulation. The programmers, using their skill, replaced every component of that ROM without the need for the source. That I call skill, but also simply following the RKM's. So that now, MOS has a clean-room reimplimentation of the AmigaOS that is 100% PowerPC native. None of the other AOS-derivitives can claim that save possibly AROS."

There is no technical advantage in having to do a clean-room re-implementation. It is something that is forced on you because you do not have access to the original code. A great deal of time is wasted in re-inventing the wheel.

It would have been much better if Amiga Inc had agreed to allow Ralph to use the AmigaOS code. All-new code will always have more bugs than updated old code.

However, we now have the interesting choice of three different strategies (or forks) for updating AmigaOS. (Four if you count Umilator). In the long run that will be better than having only one route and wondering if the other approach might have worked.

The various Unix teams have certainly learned from each other.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 72 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by bbrv on 07-Jun-2003 08:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (Don Cox):
Hi Don, we agree on everything except this...

http://www.pegasos-au.com/bernie.html

He is doing something else now...;-)

R&B
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 73 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 09:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (bbrv):
Smart move now you have started a sucking up competition to Bernie, think he is going to be happy!!!

I guess they do not need Bernie before the OS released any way, they just got it up and running so, they have not head the time to plan in details what to do next....

Any way this is some thing for Eyetech/AmigaInc to fix, not Hyperion well they can give him a free version OS4.0 that is...

If he is not interested what stops AmigaInc to make compatible clone? or some 3rd party.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 74 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 10:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 63 (Some Farker):
when you are taking about OS3.5 and OS3.9 i found it funny, first up the primarily target for OS3.5 where to fix all the nasty bug and problems whit HD stuff and remove Meany of the hacks and patches where removed and WB become more user friendly this is also the start of source code rewrite progress form 680x0 to C code, for me it look like OS3.9 where 2en step stone in the 680x0 rewrite progress and it totally reinvented the workbench internal layout, making the program more flexible and more user friendly.

The version format is like this;
masjor.miner.tiny so change form 3.1 to 3.5 gives 0.4 that is 40% change
and from OS3.5 to OS3.9 is an update of 0.4 an otter 40% change,
so you can say it's a 80% change from OS3.1 to OS4.9 that gives a 10% for the last update OS4.0 well as you can Se miner versions are not perfect to illustrate changes different developer put different ideas what a new version should be, the point is that OS3.x serious where supposed to be for 680x0, and OS4.x for PCC, so setting the OS3.9 as last update stated that this the last 680x0 version, we are moving on. think the closer to reality is they Hyperion is doing a 50% update, while OS3.5 counted for 20% and OS3.9 counted for about 20%, if we do not take the OS3.x statement in count, the OS3.5 should be called OS3.3 and OS3.9 should be called OS3.5, any way most of the OS4.0 work is tested an developed on AmigaOS3.9/680x0 any way so.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 75 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 10:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (greenboy):
/*
Kjetil, I made it clear when I mentioned that I do not care about AOS4 that it was for me personally, and not suggesting that my interest had to do with future policy. I've looked at other options from both a personal and a strategic perspective and I'm HAPPY with MorphOS. And what I know of how it fits in to Genesi plans, I feel that I will continue to be happy with what it becomes and what it will do. For my legacy desires it is already doing well, and for new native software I think it will meet my needs and then some.

But hey, I may end up with a multiple-boot machine to run one of the other OSes slated for the Pegasos, or already running on it.
*/

So your mind is already made up.. that okey..
you all ready have a computer, don't need an otter one.

/*or perhaps they don't belong there ; }*/

Thinking about dividing the post, I where a bit lazy just when to bed afterword,
well the topic should be my alibi for doing so.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 76 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 07-Jun-2003 10:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 60 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I'm not going to go into this mess again, but the fact that the Peg1 needed a fix is inconclusive for me without factual data.

I've been looking onto this issue for weeks now, the only origin of this "bug" issue is Genesi, no other company or individuals sofar has even raised a word about it;

The closest to a mention of it was on the debian mailinglist, where someone confirmed there were problems with the ArticiaS, but "for some strange reason, this happened alot more on pegasos" (i don't have the link handy, but take a look in the debian mailinglists). It went on to say that Eyetech was replacing boards at no cost, or upgrade cost, and this predates April, so the peg didn't had a fix at that time yet.

After that there has been no public mentioning of these things anywhere, exept on amiga related sites.

The people i contacted sofar also deny that there are problems with the ArticiaS, that the issue has been solved awhile ago.

If anyone insists on saying the bloody thing still has problems they better come out with proof this time

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 77 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 07-Jun-2003 10:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (greenboy):
Read my reply to Alkis, i can't get *ANY* info on the socalled bugs *ANYWHERE*.

Hell, even Bill Buck choose not to awnser the question, yet he's the one (or better said, his army of trolls) that constantly raise it.

I've had it with it, unless proven, i will consider it a problem with the Peg1, not with Mai.
Anyone suggesting otherwise without proof is jumping to conclusions or trolling

Cheers
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 78 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 07-Jun-2003 10:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Nate Downes):
Look, i *KNOW* the peg pre April had problems, however, i don't believe that it's solely an issue with the ArticiaS chip.

I've spent more then 20 hours online looking & emailing contacts all over the world, no-one can confirm the existance of bugs in the ArticiaS.

Therefor i have to conclude it's a problem with Peg1

Amon_Re
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 79 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 11:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (bbrv):
You kown dealing whit items belong in the sone-age, you mey have bribed him, one berine relaise he has a 200$ computer so he can port AHI to it, don't think he is going to think he is over payed to say MorphOS frendly, AmigaInc/Hypersion has never accapted any bribes like that ever, once they tryed then verer accepting resiving the gifts. Will I think Bernie deserved the support at the time, butt i do not think it all for being nice.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 80 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (CodeSmith):
> This was an absolute pleasure to read - a long discussion about a
> controversial topic and there wasn't a single nasty remark.

> Congratulations guys. You have pushed up my faith in the Amiga a fair few
> notches :D

:-)

I think that things have improved a lot on the community sites recently. Perhaps that amigaworld site wasn't such a bad idea after all? :-p
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 81 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (Rob):
@ Rob

> Isn't it a bit misleading to mention Atari in your Article or does
> Nolan Bushnell work for Atari (formerly Infogrames)?

> Or is there a seperate deal that only some people know about? :)

Atari:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1054686063&category=forum&start=1&262

Nolan Bushnell:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1054763642&category=news&start=1&41
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 82 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Jun-2003 11:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Amon_Re):
You've spent more than 20 hours and they've spent more than 2000 PAID hours.
Redesigning the whole Pegasos from scratch would need less time and money
and if it was a Pegasos prob, they would do THAT instead. Gerald Card visited
MAI and PROOVED the bugs, while MAI thought that they would just get another
clueless argueing about the problems of his board. To their surprise, he was
prooved to be THE EXACT opposite...
And about the "it happens more on Pegasos" stuff... If happens on the first
Pegasos PROTOTYPES as well, that were a Teron with a second CPU slot. Actually,
almost the same board as the AmigaONE.
You also don't understand something... NDAs... Nobody can talk about them in
greater detail if he has talked to MAI. Now, it's your choice... Believe
Gerald, or believe Mr. "There's no bug!", "We fixed that bug that didn't exist",
"The BIOS is fine!", "The BIOS that was fine is being replaced" (to reword them...).
It's your choice.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 83 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Jun-2003 11:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 79 (Kjetil):
Excuse me, ARE YOU SERIOUS!? This is called developer support NOT bribing.
If you think that developers should pay the earth, no prob, if you want to code
and REALLY want to pay more, do it. Nothing stops you.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 84 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 50 (bbrv):
@ BBRV

> Hey TMHG, it looks like you took some time to do this and it seems there are
> plenty of thoughtful responses!

Some time yes, but not *that* much time. Long time ago (when studying) I had a part time job at "Telia Texttelefon" as an intermediary between deaf people (writing their conversation on a text telephone) when were calling hearing people with a regular phone. I'm a fast typer! :-) I can easily type a conversation in it's exact wordings (well allmost) in real time. And all this stuff were allready in my head, so I just kind of sat back and uploaded it to the keyboard!
:-)

The text became a little too long though, raising too many questions at the same time, making it difficult for people to comment. But I think that many have read it though!

(BTW, a feature I would like here at ann is a "number of views" meter! Like the ones at the xoops sites. I think it's interesting to see how much traffic there are in the threads!)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 85 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Some Farker):
> Grow up kids; it's a computer, not the future of mankind.

It's a computer allright. And it *has* a future (that's what the whole thread is about)!
:-p
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 86 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 54 (greenboy):
> Multiple OSes and partnerships to aim at larger sales markets are good
> calling cards too : }

Absolutely!

BTW, I have just finished watching that video clip from Hungarian TV where Zoltan Kovacs showed off the Pegasos board running MorphOS, Linux (not much of that though) and Mac On Linux. I think that the viewers of that show must have been impressed. It really showed the Pegasos from its best side (those of you who still haven't seen how fast MorphOS is in real action yet can tune in to that clip, there is a link at morphos-news.de).

Can't wait to see all the other OS'es shown in a similar way ...! :-)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 87 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 58 (AnonX):
> This has got to be the best post on ANN for .... ever?

Wow! :-)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 88 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 11:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I be happy to receive a Pegasus for free or Amiga One, butt this is bribing in my mind, this is the old trick inn the capture resource book, personally I think they should pay Bernie for giving a so important software package to the system. And the same goes for Hyperion if they need AHI, I can think of many option be better then AHI, like alsa drivers or OSS, well may be not OSS it sucks form programmers point of view,
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 89 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 07-Jun-2003 11:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Kjetil):
The point is that there might be payment if someone codes something important.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 90 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 62 (Nate Downes):
> I would note, if it were not for the bugs and the need for April, the
> Pegasos would have been shipping commercially back in June of LAST year.

... and all the other compainies with MAI based products have encountered the same thing. AFAIK, Eyetech is the only one who still hasn't abandoned it totally, but OTOH they are not exactly belching out motherboards ...
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 91 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 12:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (bbrv):
@ BBRV

> We are happy to support the OS4 effort by providing a Pegasos II to the OS4
> Team.

The next show both you and Hyperion attends to, wrap a Pegasos in some present ;-) paper and hand it over in public.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 92 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 07-Jun-2003 12:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Kjetil):
@ Kjetil

Payments for work can be in money and/or goods. But no carpenter can work without tools (Pegasos), if you know what I mean?

Put a brush and some oil paint in front of an artist, and you might perhaps be rewarded with a master piece!
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 93 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 07-Jun-2003 12:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
> Alkis Tsapanidis :
>This is called developer support NOT bribing

Hey Alkis

That's that whole Mercy Sex Syndrome I was talking about. It's based on poverty, encourages more poverty, obsesses on duty and pity and not health and prosperity. Maybe someone could take Pinocchio and make him into a real boy, but a lot of people are afraid he'd become hard to understand if he grew and flourished.

Or maybe they don't realize that eventually you lose your talent to other communities because those with it need to make a living too, and want to see their efforts fully supported, developed, with longevity and potential for further growth. It's crazy to insist that poverty for all but the OS owner and a few select others should be the way it is.

But maybe some would rather have it that way, because it is not easy to take a total ghetto and bring it to high standards of living and diversity. Sometimes its easier to just not try, and to avoid change.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 94 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by greenboy on 07-Jun-2003 12:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Kjetil):
>I be happy to receive a Pegasus for free or Amiga One,

Example: have you potential that needs to be encouraged? Send me a CV/bio and I'll see whether I can at least get you one at a reduced price. That's the way it works. It is called development seeding and it is a time-honored practice. The Amiga way back in the days of its birth had lots of its software come from seeding.


>butt this is bribing in my mind, this is the old trick inn the capture resource book

So you are saying that Bernie and others take bribes, and are dishonest? Ot that they are incredibly naive and just think machines drop from the sky, but later some evil alien turns them into a pod person? Gimme a break!

Some of you really need to understand that it takes financial strength and the will to spread it around to make improvements on the state of a market, a property, an idea. And it takes ENOUGH financial strength that will allow efforts to be sustained, because longevity is desired unless someone just wants to make a quick profit and then split.

That is why some invest in the future by investing in others, and some just do as little as possible.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 95 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Julian on 07-Jun-2003 15:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Amon_Re):
"but its an illustration of how they might be able break out of the current, neardead market."

Actually to me, the "home computer market" *IS* pretty much dead. Sadly, I have *NO* interest in *ANY* other computer type (ie: Business computers, Amiga computer trying to become Business computers). Genesi sounds interesting to me as it could be possibly a new home computer? I doubt it, but a possibility. OS4 when it comes out will be a must have upgrade (just as OS3.0, OS3.1, OS3.5 were).

Julian
(I love my Amiga 4000 + Amstrad CPC664 most!)
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 96 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 15:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (greenboy):
/*
So you are saying that Bernie and others take bribes, and are dishonest? Ot that they are incredibly naive and just think machines drop from the sky, but later some evil alien turns them into a pod person? Gimme a break!
*/

Yes... :)

Well every one takes bribes in one level or the otter, if I smile to some one the person I smile to smiles back, it nothing wrong about giving some thing to place some one, butt is right to do so to place your self ? it clean it will be stupid to never give as you never get some thing back.

The problem is if some one gives some thing to you, and you don't accept this will be taken really negative by person meaning well, so most will take the gift say nothing to avoid any conflict.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 97 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Julian on 07-Jun-2003 15:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Kjetil):
"I be happy to receive a Pegasus for free or Amiga One, butt this is bribing in my mind, "

Come on, anyone would be happy to get a free computer. But, I think it is unfair for you to say to either party that it is bribing. Enticing? perhaps, but I am sure if Bernie doesn't want to do something he won't.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 98 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by Kjetil on 07-Jun-2003 16:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (Julian):
Way is the word bribe negative word ? when very one comes out of whit a gain?

Is there some one else that suffer from this ?
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 99 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by dammy on 07-Jun-2003 18:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (Kjetil):
Bribe Bribe, v. i.
1. To commit robbery or theft. Obs.

2. To give a bribe to a person; to pervert the judgment or
corrupt the action of a person in a position of trust, by
some gift or promise.

An attempt to bribe, though unsuccessful, has been
holden to be criminal, and the offender may be
indicted. --Bouvier.

The bard may supplicate, but cannot bribe.
--Goldsmith.

Bribe Bribe, n. F. bribe a lump of bread, scraps, leavings of
meals (that are generally given to a beggar), LL. briba scrap
of bread; cf. OF. briber, brifer, to eat gluttonously, to
beg, and OHG. bilibi food.
1. A gift begged; a present. Obs. --Chaucer.

2. A price, reward, gift, or favor bestowed or promised with
a view to prevent the judgment or corrupt the conduct of a
judge, witness, voter, or other person in a position of
trust.

Undue reward for anything against justice is a
bribe. --Hobart.

3. That which seduces; seduction; allurement.

Not the bribes of sordid wealth can seduce to leave
these ever?blooming sweets. --Akenside.

Bribe Bribe, v. t. imp. & p. p. Bribed; p. pr. & vb. n.
Bribing.
1. To rob or steal. Obs. --Chaucer.

2. To give or promise a reward or consideration to (a judge,
juror, legislator, voter, or other person in a position of
trust) with a view to prevent the judgment or corrupt the
conduct; to induce or influence by a bribe; to give a
bribe to.

Neither is he worthy who bribes a man to vote
against his conscience. --F. W.
Robertson.

3. To gain by a bribe; of induce as by a bribe.
Future of Pegasos, A1 and OS4 : Comment 100 of 114ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 07-Jun-2003 19:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (takemehomegrandma):
TMHG

>@ BBRV

>> We are happy to support the OS4 effort by providing a Pegasos II to the OS4
>> Team.

>The next show both you and Hyperion attends to, wrap a Pegasos in some present
> ;-) paper and hand it over in public.

That would be a sight. Perhaps this can be arranged in AmiWest.. I do assume Hyperion oes there to show OS4?
Anonymous, there are 114 items in your selection (but only 64 shown due to limitation) [1 - 50] [51 - 100] [101 - 114]
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