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[News] OS4 in France addendumANN.lu
Posted on 07-Jul-2003 19:26 GMT by Elwood40 comments
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A few notes about our presentation of OS4 and Alan's... I must say that Laszlo Torok sent me his last version of MooVid a few hours before I left to go to Montlaur where OS4 was demoed (thanks Laszlo). As we spent 2 hours talking about OS4 (the presentation we prepared), we ran out of time. We couldn't show MooVid running in OS4. Sorry French Amigans about that...

Anyway, with Stephane Guillard we tried MooVid just before the show. We played some movies that can be found in the "Video" directory of the OS3.9 CD.

We played them in a Workbench window (with nosound because we hadn't speakers) and it was damn fast... So it prooves that:

- OS4 68k emulation works well (the Moovid we used was the 68k one)

- the 68k runs fast even on an old 603 (on the A4000 we used) !!! I know there wasn't sound but it will rocks on the A1

There's one thing left, I must say. Alan Redhouse did a presentation about the present and future of the A1. What impressed me is when he said that Eyetech sold "many more" units than "the others"...

I had confirmation of that when I asked to an A1 reseller who told me there is a potential market for several thousands of AmigaOnes. Remember the ISP-like market ? :-)

Bye everyone, I hope to see you soon to demo a full PPC OS4 running in the A1 !!! :-)

OS4 in France addendum : Comment 1 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by catohagen on 07-Jul-2003 17:38 GMT
good news the A1 is selling well.
It makes a good Kiosk system too with that Hollywood multimedia package :)
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 2 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 18:29 GMT
"What impressed me is when he said that Eyetech sold "many more" units than "the others"."

Oh yea ;-) It`s like when he said there are no bugs in Articia but then was shown as "fixed" on the Aone Homepgae,
or when he tried to claim, that Aone has nothing todo with the Terron Mobo ;-)
Actually, what I heard is that delivery of the Aone is not going well, even Mr Horbach said on the ppcnux forum
(when this strange Aone sells better than Pegasos but than it was jsut for KDH)that he think overall are more Pegasos sold..
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 3 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 18:32 GMT
Let's hope that there are a lot of "ISP like" buying Aones because it does not look a lot of people were at the show.
To be sincere, it is very depressing as I don't see a market anymore in France :(
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 4 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 18:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christophe Decanini):
Hi,

Rose can tell more about this (tickets sold...), but I guess that 50 attendees is a good estimation.

Its surely not enough but its a good start, people needs OS4 on the AmigaOne, without it many will wait... I spoke to Alan, and you can feel that its someone that you can trust, the only barrier is the price tag a little too much IMHO but that because the board are built in too little quantities.

If you don't buy OS 4, OS 4.x ... will not exist, if you don't buy an AmigaOne... AmigaOneII will... That's pretty logical and that's the truth.

The only question is do we want them ...


Who won the T-Shirt ? :)

PS We need a clever coder that can implement an Amiga Chipset emulator embedded in OS4. (no I don't want to launch UAE ! ;))
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 5 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 18:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
Maybe I'm on a bad day but I think 50 is low for such an event.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 6 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Murakami on 07-Jul-2003 18:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
This presentation was very exciting. The long waiting for the OS4 is now almost finished. At last !

Freeze won the T-Shirt !
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 7 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 19:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Christophe Decanini):
Hi,

Sure you're, that not too bad I guess for an event of such importance ;) during summer time on a lost village near Toulouse.

Its not like the Viscop event in Toulouse some years ago, but we've to walk before we run again...

Some person believe in the Amiga, they think its worth it why not give it a try, everything start with a dream, then you've to make it true.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 8 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 19:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 7 (Anonymous):
Toulouse had a lot of Amigans a few years ago.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 9 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 19:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Christophe Decanini):
Hi

I know I lived there 32 years. I just saw one guy from the "Air France" Amiga Club. All the others that I used to see where not there.
But I saw very old Amigans, people that are using this machine since the beginning, how do they call them... Raging Fans ? :)
But I also saw young people, its a good thing, we need new Amigans and not just the old die hard fans ;)

I'll follow what happens in the Amiga market, and who knows I may bought one just for fun !
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 10 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Christoph Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 19:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 9 (Anonymous):
Nice to see you had fun. What scares me is "and who knows I may bought one just for fun !"

The may be hundreds, even thousands who may buy one but won't necessary do it.
In order to have sufisant applications developped there is a need of ten of thousands active users. We are curently below this number with the clasic Amiga and it does not look that we will have more users soon even when adding OS4 + Morphos + Amithlon.

Sorry to be pessimistic but I don't see how to sustain the market if Eyetech/Genesi does not go the set top box way.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 11 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 07-Jul-2003 19:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Christoph Decanini):
"The may be hundreds, even thousands who may buy one but won't necessary do it."

That is the inevitable down side of going for custom hardware.

"In order to have sufisant applications developed there is a need of ten of thousands active users. We are curently below this number with the clasic Amiga and it does not look that we will have more users soon even when adding OS4 + Morphos + Amithlon."

The best hope is that people who enjoy programming as a hobby will buy Amigas.

To make commercial programming worth while, you need a bigger market than the Mac.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 12 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Christophe Decanini on 07-Jul-2003 20:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Don Cox):
I always think Don that you ask too much.
A portion of the Mac market would be enough. It was enough e few years ago to have quality applications developed.

As for the platform, it is not necessarly the most important show stopper.
If Genesi/Eyetech can come up with 299$ boards (including OS) it can be ok. After all some people paid more for PC mobo + CPU + Amithlon.
If Eyetech/Genesi can sell thousands of units for set top box than the price can go down even more.

The major problem are the applications and the commercial effort to bring back alternative computing.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 13 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 07-Jul-2003 20:25 GMT
>- the 68k runs fast even on an old 603 (on the A4000 we used)

You have a 603 in your A4000? ;o)
Must be a pretty unique A4k. Unless you somehow managed to wire a BPPC in there I think you'll find it had a 604.

I find it interesting that Alan claims to have sold many more units than the "others". Did he give you any figures?

I wouldn't say that the videos on the OS3.9 CD are much of a test - they even played fine on my 040/25.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 14 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Fab1 on 07-Jul-2003 20:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Lando):
>You have a 603 in your A4000? ;o) Must be a pretty unique A4k. Unless you somehow managed to wire a BPPC in there I think you'll find it had a 604.It was probably a 604. However first csppc protos were shown with ~120MHz 603 IIRC. But I guess noone has such oddities except maybe ex-phase5 employees. :)
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 15 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 20:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (catohagen):
> good news the A1 is selling well. It makes a good Kiosk system too with that Hollywood multimedia package :)

No, it doesn't, the mainboard is bulky and there is no on-board sound and no on-board video and it's terribly overpriced (don't get me started about the near-completed OS ;-). For a kiosk system, a sane person would choose a mini-itx board.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 16 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 21:07 GMT
Nice to see all you Peg/MOS boys jumping into an AmigaOne/Aos4 thread.

You just cant stay away :)
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 17 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 07-Jul-2003 21:08 GMT
Agent Smith would say :
" What is the use of an Amiga Market if you're not able to sell ?"
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 18 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 07-Jul-2003 21:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
Nice.

I will quote you on that.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 19 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 02:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 10 (Christoph Decanini):
The only thing that set-top boxes will do is lower the price of the hardware, because of volumes of scale. Set-top boxes are designed to be single-function, and as cheap as possible while maintining a given level of quality. That usually translates into small hard drives (large enough to hold OS+apps), cheap video cards (as long as the TV-out is good, who cares about 3D?) and just enough installed memory to run the built-in web and channel browser. On something as efficient as AmigaOS, that translates into some pretty crappy hardware :) Definitely not a machine that I'd want to run games or productivity apps on.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 20 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 08-Jul-2003 05:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Fab1):
Sure it's probably a 604 (I don't own an A4000 myself). What I meant is that it was on that very old hardware. I'm waiting to have money to buy the A1....
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 21 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Richi on 08-Jul-2003 07:46 GMT
Hi,
about Moovid (that seems to be forgotten by anyone else in these threads..) can you tell us the fps, resolution, colors... so i can compare it with my 060?

Thanks bye
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 22 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by alan buxey on 08-Jul-2003 09:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
> For a kiosk system, a sane person would choose a mini-itx board

depends on the system..and usage. formfactor-wise, you'd think so..but
for abilities and functionality, you may want extra hardware anyway.
eg several sounds cards for placement around the room of different audio
sounds, MPEG2 hardware gfx - for playback of video. a fast 3D card for
playback of programmed gfx. if you have to add ANY cards to an ITX/mini-ITX
then you lose the foot-size factor anyway. Also, kiosks are usually designed to
big big, unstealable and rugged.

alan
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 23 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood on 08-Jul-2003 09:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (Richi):
No I can't (it's not my system) but I think it's useless because it will go fast enough under a full PPC OS4 (not even mentioning OS4 on the A1)...
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 24 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 09:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (alan buxey):
>eg several sounds cards for placement around the room of different audio
>sounds,

come on. Which one has that ? (beside 2 outputs should be possible with one card)

>MPEG2 hardware gfx - for playback of video. a fast 3D card for
>playback of programmed gfx. if you have to add ANY cards to an ITX/mini-ITX
>then you lose the foot-size factor anyway. Also, kiosks are usually designed to
>big big, unstealable and rugged

And why do you think, this won't fit on a mini-itx ?

cheers
Jürgen
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 25 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Bernie Meyer on 08-Jul-2003 10:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
Which of us two is working for a company that does (among other things) information kiosks?(And no, no mini-ITX board in use.... Even smaller stuff, but with onboard LCD drivers and sound)
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 26 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by corpse on 08-Jul-2003 10:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
"No, it doesn't, the mainboard is bulky"

Just as bulky as the guts of an a1200 once its cabled up ... and I've seen/heard of plenty of those in kiosks running scala presentations.

"and there is no on-board sound and no on-board video"

CMI 4 channel PCI sound card .. £5, Shitty SIS AGP Graphics card w/tv out .. £7.

"and it's terribly overpriced (don't get me started about the near-completed OS ;-).For a kiosk system, a sane person would choose a mini-itx board."

If you're a home PC user it's hard to see over the original price ... in industry you have to think about the long term, e.g. is it going to survive years of abuse and can you get a sweet warrantydeal on it?

A firm like eyetech, where you're dealing with the top man can swing you a nice warranty and service deal, I doubt via etc will be as understanding if you only want small amount of systems, 100 or so is probably a grain of sand to someone like via.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 27 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by corpse on 08-Jul-2003 10:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Anonymous):
"And why do you think, this won't fit on a mini-itx ?"

Mini-ITX boards with lots of "goodies" like those for home entertainment systems are damn expensive, most of the time more expensive then a cheap ATX based system with similar or better "goodies".
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 28 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Ben Hermans/Hyperion on 08-Jul-2003 12:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Bernie Meyer):
Which one of us is talking about curently available hardware as opposed to soon to be available hardware?
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 29 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Ben Hermans/Hyperion):
>I will quote you on that.

Ben, that would be a nice surprise. I'd love to see either the A1 or P2 evolve into a good kiosk system. Small footprint, low price, highly integrated, lean OS.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 30 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 22 (alan buxey):
> formfactor-wise, you'd think so..but for abilities and functionality, you may want extra hardware anyway. eg several sounds cards for placement around the room of different audio sounds, MPEG2 hardware gfx - for playback of video. a fast 3D card for playback of programmed gfx. if you have to add ANY cards to an ITX/mini-ITX then you lose the foot-size factor anyway. Also, kiosks are usually designed to big big, unstealable and rugged.

mini-itx is a highly integrated cool (a in cold) windows/linux platform at a very competitive price with good on-board components, from multi-channnel digital audio, Ethernet, USB, Video/SVHS to a gfx core that is certainly fast enough for all sorts of video (if you pick a suitable itx board for your purposes). Tne perfect system for multimedia. I agree that form factor is only one of many points. mini-itx is now increasingly used in server farms by ISPs, not so much in kiosk systems.

> [adding pci card] then you lose the foot-size factor anyway

Not necessarily, riser cards are available. Height is increased, footprint is not. For vertical mounting without riser card, half-height PCI cards targeted at mini systems can be used, hardly increasing height (beyond the heatsink and fan).
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 31 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (corpse):
>CMI 4 channel PCI sound card .. £5, Shitty SIS AGP Graphics card w/tv out .. £7.

I doubt that a kiosk system manufacturer would get excited about buying cheap sound cards and gfx cards if he can get a mainboard with all that included and supported by an integrated set of drivers provided by the manufacturer. Each extra card means potentional trouble: stocking cards, changing chipsets, new drivers, card could get loose in the socket, installation takes longer, adds to height, draws more power, etc. For a kiosk system, I would get the cheapest smallest, fastest all-in-one system possible. Right now, I can't think of anything as good as mini-itx, unless that platform with all its power is already overkill for the intended use.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 32 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 14:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (corpse):
>Mini-ITX boards with lots of "goodies" like those for home entertainment systems are damn expensive

Absolutely not. I paid 89 EUR for a (new) EPIA. These systems are ready-to-use, with fan, heatsink, cpu, graphics chip, sound, video, ethernet. You add a memory stick and a drive and have a working networked computer. Beats me how one could build a cheaper system. The EPIA800 admittedly was only on the brink of a perfect home multimedia system (without adding a hardware mpeg decoder) but IMHO good enough for every kiosk system I have seen so far.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 33 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by ehaines on 08-Jul-2003 18:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (corpse):
> > "and there is no on-board sound and no on-board video"

> CMI 4 channel PCI sound card .. £5,

Not necessary, since there, well, um, actually is on-board sound.
Typical how those who, in their zeal to bash, don't even get basic
facts straight.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 34 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2003 19:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (ehaines):
> Not necessary, since there, well, um, actually is on-board sound.
Typical how those who, in their zeal to bash, don't even get basic
facts straight.

Hey, you are a bit harsh ;-) I feal no zeal to bash. I just picked up on forums that people were byuing sounds cards for their A1 and consequently assumed that it has no on-board audio. If it does, why do they discuss buying sound cards? *confused*
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 35 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Jürgen Schober on 09-Jul-2003 07:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Bernie Meyer):
Currently there is a total lack of MM terminal (Multimedia Terminals) which gives you a certain amount of gfx performance (beside video overlay and these sort of things). I am talking about an embedded PS2 or the like, not a simple "content provider engine". Some of the XScale etc. stuff is moving in to this direction (e.g. see the PowerVR license by Intel and the plan to integrate this core into an XScale. BTW: PowerVR is widely used in Dreamcast/Naomi/Naomi2 systems, and there is a roadmap (still) to have better Arcade chipsets - and BTW: Aristocrat is using one - with an SH4 processor). Problem so far: There is no OS available for such systems, most of them use some sort of small footprint embedded systems (e.g. OSE, VMWare and a custom UI/gfx layer (usually some sort of scaled down OpenGL API).
So, yes, I tend to say, an ITX (PPC) Amiga with Warp3D/Nova (MinGL/OpenGL) is a damn good product ATM (until CE catches up with 3D drivers and 4.2 DirectX - which currently does not support 3D !!!).
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 36 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by MIKE on 09-Jul-2003 11:13 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Christophe Decanini):
Why would an ISP buy an AmigaOne? We have converted all of our computing infrastructure to blades, as most ISP's are moving toward, why would I want to go back to the dark ages, with a large proprietary, expensive motherboard, with a slow non-standard CPU? Please, there is no interest in using AmigaOS for an ISP, since that's what this slow mobo's main claim to fame will be someday.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 37 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by anarchic_teapot on 09-Jul-2003 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Anonymous):
> If you don't buy OS 4, OS 4.x ... will not exist, if you don't buy an
> AmigaOne... AmigaOneII will... That's pretty logical and that's the truth.

Your logic gland must be malfunctioning. Doesn't matter whether you're talking hardware, software, the follow-up to a film/book/edition 0 of a magazine, whatever. If no-one buys the first, the logical conclusion is there's no market for a follow-up.

As for quantities sold throughout the world, perhaps the best bet would be to ask MAI how many Articia S have been sold to Eyetech and Genesi/Thendic/bPlan (whatever they're supposed to be called now). After all, they're best placed to tell.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 38 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 10-Jul-2003 00:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Jürgen Schober):
>Currently there is a total lack of MM terminal (Multimedia Terminals) which gives you a certain amount of gfx performance (beside video overlay and these sort of things).

If there is a lack of such terminals (I don't know), it would be due to a lack of demand, not due to lack of technology, because suitable of-shelf technology can be bought everywhere. I don't know exactly how you define MM hardware but would assume that small size, small price, low power consumption and high integration (everything on-board) would be important. Easy to find. Not only in form of underpowered mini-itx boards but also in form of flex-atx with desktop or notebook CPUs (strike low power consumption in that case ;). As to operating systems, you forget Linux: Linux runs just about everywhere, doesn't it, even in handwrist watches. As MM developer, I would feel much more comfortable with Linux than AmigaOS, simply because it's known technology and my boss has heard about it. Personally, I think A1 and Pegaos would be nice home computers and should target kids (P64 ;-), not grown-ups or business.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 39 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Jul-2003 06:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (MIKE):
the AmigaONE fits intoa 1U high 19" rack format. normally known as a 'blade'
...and let me guess about how much heat is generated and power used by your blades.

non standard CPU? we're talking PowerPC. its very well known and widely used!
(in fact, if you have an CISCO gear..open it up.... :-) )

If your blades run Linux...then the move to PowerPC is almost trivial.

one night, your running Apache/PHP/Perl/Squid/ etc on an x86 blade...the same
time the next day, ALL could be on PowerPC Linux.
OS4 in France addendum : Comment 40 of 40ANN.lu
Posted by Golem on 13-Jul-2003 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (Anonymous):
>the AmigaONE fits intoa 1U high 19" rack format. normally known as a
>'blade' ...and let me guess about how much heat is generated and power
>used by your blades.

Look here: http://www.rlx.com/products/serverblades/

Not quite the same as your amigaone "blade" :-)
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