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[Unmoderated] ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ?ANN.lu
Posted on 08-Jul-2004 06:47 GMT by brotheris140 comments
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Here's the summary of the last posts from hot topic. It may finaly put some dots on I's. Up to now we have heared a lot of small bits from variuos parties and finaly we can put the puzzle together. Read more about it. I'll play Amon_Re of the past:

It all started when Chris Hogdes started explaining few things (in this thread and @226 comment).

During DMA transfers, the ArticiaS does not flag accessed memory as "dirty", therefore the CPU does not automatically know, that it has to update/flush its caches

Later (@ comment 247, 248 and others) Bernie Meyer explained how such a lack of feature (or call it a bug) affects stability, performance and may cause data corruption even in AmigaOS-like enviroment while using CachePreDMA()/CachePostDMA().

And then we discover quotes from ArticiaS documentation:
"The snoop cycle is used to probe the primary and secondary cache for updated data when the PCI accesses DRAM. This is done to maintain data coherency between the Floating Buffer, DRAM and both caches. The Articia S performs the Snoop cycle. When there is a snoop hit on a modified cache line in either level one or two cache, the contents are written back directly to the Floating Buffer. A PCI Bus master can subsequently later on fetch the data directly from the Floating Buffer. The Floating Buffer is flushed back to DRAM during a PCI write cycle. The corresponding line in level one or level two cache is thus invalidated. Snoops are hidden, meaning the CPU can continue its current data access without being interrupted while the Articia S simultaneously queries both caches."

You can find similar information using google cache. It seems like some people lied. Is lack of Cache Coherency a bug or a feature (it was advertised that there is Cache Coherency, so it had to work) ? We may now put this case to rest.

ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 1 of 140ANN.lu
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Trolling
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 2 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2004 06:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Eva):
Yeah.. I've heard some of x86 hardware might be good choice too. But do you have much choice when talking about computers that run OS4?
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 3 of 140ANN.lu
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Insult
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 4 of 140ANN.lu
In reply to Comment 1 (Eva):
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Trolling
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 5 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 08-Jul-2004 06:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (NeRP):
Yes, blame it on Eva.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 6 of 140ANN.lu
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Follow up to trolling
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 7 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Richi on 08-Jul-2004 06:56 GMT
Eva = Joker nerd!
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 8 of 140ANN.lu
In reply to Comment 3 (NeRP):
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Follow up to insult
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 9 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 07:14 GMT
Bad bad imitation Brotheris :) But the summery is nice to have
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 10 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 07:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (brotheris):
But nevertheless, it wouldn't her her :P
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 11 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 07:19 GMT
I find this to be the most intresting part:

"Snoops are hidden, meaning the CPU can continue its current data access without being interrupted while the Articia S simultaneously queries both caches."
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 12 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by John Block on 08-Jul-2004 07:27 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (Amon_Re):
http://www.snoopy.com

http://www.snoopdogg.com
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 13 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 08-Jul-2004 07:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Eva):
Clearly A1 isn't your choice but why the f#?k do you care with what others buy as hobbie or for whatever other reason they might buy?
Do you think you do any help toward your prefered choice!?
'Oh, you sad, sad FREAK'...
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 14 of 140ANN.lu
In reply to Comment 6 (Emeric SH):
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Follow up to trolling
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 15 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jul-2004 07:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (pixie):
"If there's some people who think that way, let them think it's their money talking... it's their choice, whatever you may say it's of no help, because guess what, they are right... in their own world they sense it that way."

I disagree. Reality has the nasty behaviour to open ppls eyes in their more or less open mood. Many such "blind" OS4 fan gave a shot to MorphOS in the long wait, and none of them regretted it as I know.

As to the X86/Mac route of course you're right. MorphOS is still no threat to neither Windows nor Mac or Linux, however fast it is compared to them, there is still a long road to reach and have their billions of features.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 16 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Peg2 on 08-Jul-2004 07:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 1 (Eva):
"buy a Pegasos 2"

Where?
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 17 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jul-2004 08:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (pixie):
>because all the cheerleaders of Genesi bragging all they can about their choice.

Yes! Thats one more incommon thing Pegasos owners have with Amiga-users. Oh how proud I have been of my Amiga and defended it till the last straw against ST and PC. Thanks for mentioning it, I feel a bit even more Amiga-user now, eventhough I haven't used a real one for a long time ;-)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 18 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 08-Jul-2004 08:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Emeric SH):
The question is, is it wrong for them to pursuit a dream!? After all, that's what were talking here dreams, hobbies.. can Pegasos fullfill those dreams for them!? It may or may not, it seems does in some but not on others.. but they are not wrong, it's how they feel... Amiga for them represents one thing and for others another, it's the beauty of Amiga...
you don't see no one bragging about what MorphOS is or isn't, it hasn't matured yet as a standalone product as AmigaOS had...
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 19 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 08-Jul-2004 08:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 17 (hooligan/dcs):
Yes, but ST and PC users weren't one time part of the same... 'Kommunity' :P
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 20 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 08-Jul-2004 08:26 GMT
Whoa, 16 (now 17) out of 17 (now 18) posts that do NOT address the issue raised but rather prefer to focus on Eva. What an interesting thing to note :-)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 21 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Hagge on 08-Jul-2004 08:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (Peg2):
as i see it the pegasos is much more than a "real" amiga..
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 22 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by pixie on 08-Jul-2004 08:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Fabio Alemagna):
Well you already have one (many) thread(s) talking (to death) about articiaS issues, it's more fun to talk about EVA issues... ;b
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 23 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jul-2004 08:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Fabio Alemagna):
well... conclusion: most people just don't give a fuck whether Articia is buggy or not.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 24 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by itix on 08-Jul-2004 08:32 GMT
"You can find similar information using google cache. It seems like some people lied. Is lack of Cache Coherency a bug or a feature (it was advertised that there is Cache Coherency, so it had to work) ? We may now put this case to rest." Any comments? Who lied, who didn't, is it lack of feature or feature with bug?
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 25 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jul-2004 08:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (pixie):
"The question is, is it wrong for them to pursuit a dream!? After all, that's what were talking here dreams, hobbies.. can Pegasos fullfill those dreams for them!? It may or may not, it seems does in some but not on others.. but they are not wrong, it's how they feel... Amiga for them represents one thing and for others another, it's the beauty of Amiga...
you don't see no one bragging about what MorphOS is or isn't, it hasn't matured yet as a standalone product as AmigaOS had..."

You mean the classic version.

There are those who stick to 68K, PowerUP, WarpOS, Amithlon, UAE, AmigaDE, AmigaOS4, AROS, MorphOS, whatever...

Like it or not, they are all the same community. And on the contrary, I've witnessed many blind crusades again MorphOS, and I bet we're not at the end of them. Most ppl now accept it as it is. The Pegasos an Amiga, and MorphOS an AmigaOS alternative. And by no means a bad one. Restrict it's description as you like, call it "alien" or "emulator", it won't go away :)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 26 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 08-Jul-2004 09:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Emeric SH):
Emeric SH wrote:
> Peg2 wrote:
>> We want Amiga with real AmigaOS, and not Pegasos crap with an
>> emulator.
>
> Stick to the classic then. There is no spoon :)

Well, for people who for some reason or another absolutely want to run
OS4, I'm not sure "classic" is a better choice than the bugged A1.

Let's compare:

AOne does have serious DMA issues. But even with these issues, things
like disk speed is likely to be faster than most classic hardware. And
even if it would be a bit slower, this should be offset by the faster
CPU etc.
The DMA problems will probably also mean that drivers for various
peripherals won't be available. However, these peripherals are
probably not available on the classic either, so..

Ok, the A1 is rather expensive. But - a fully equipped classic machine
is hardly cheap either. If you can find one for sale, at all.

Considering how Eyetech and Hyperion won't even admit this DMA bug
exists, I wouldn't feel too assured buying products from them, that
they will take a responsible attitude should more problems turn up.
However, at least you do get a warranty for totally obvious defects,
which is probably more than you'd get if you buy a "classic".


So.. if you're choosing between A1 + OS4 or Peg2+MorphOS, of course
the latter option has a HW advantage. But if you for some reason
really want to run OS4 (maybe because you already own a MOS system and
want to try both :-) then I wouldn't say the A1 is uninteresting. It's
bugged and crippled but for running a novelty OS, it could do.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 27 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 09:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 12 (John Block):
I hate rap & RnB
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 28 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 09:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Fabio Alemagna):
Staying on topic isn't our strongest point i guess :P
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 29 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Emeric SH on 08-Jul-2004 09:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (Amon_Re):
Was there a topic after all? :)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 30 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Peter Gordon on 08-Jul-2004 10:19 GMT
Well... bug or feature, I don't care. As long as DMA works fine, i'm happy.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 31 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 08-Jul-2004 10:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 26 (Johan Rönnblom):
Considering the amount of $hit you've been typing over the last few days, I strongly recomment that you disinfect your keyboard before someone else uses it and catches a nasty disease.

Oh well, at least you're consistant. :-)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 32 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Crumb // AAT on 08-Jul-2004 11:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 25 (Emeric SH):
@Emeric SH
>There are those who stick to 68K, PowerUP, WarpOS, Amithlon, UAE, AmigaDE, >AmigaOS4, AROS, MorphOS, whatever...
>Like it or not, they are all the same community.

Yeah! :-)
All these alternatives can coexist. If we put the effort spent arguing between us in doing something useful all the community would move forward
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 33 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Cheesegrate on 08-Jul-2004 11:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Darrin):
as are u in ingoring the issue at hand... ;)

heh just like the army and all those dead civies eh? ;P
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 34 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Darrin on 08-Jul-2004 11:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 33 (Cheesegrate):
>as are u in ingoring the issue at hand... ;)

Me? Never!!! ;-)

>heh just like the army and all those dead civies eh? ;P

Owch!!! Civilians my bottom. Just because the bodies are not wearing a uniform and there's no dropped sidearms in sight? Hmmmmm...

Considering I'm typing this message from my office in the Middle East with two Arabs keeping me company (one Christian and one Muslim... but both play a mean game of pool), I think I have a different perspective on the problem and what the REAL Arab community think. Still, if you think CNN or the Daily Mirror know better...

Damn, you nearly got me to stand on my soapbox again!!! :-)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 35 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 08-Jul-2004 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Amon_Re):
Join the club:-) Rap sucks! (OT)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 36 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 08-Jul-2004 12:03 GMT
"The corresponding line in level one or level two cache is thus invalidated. "

Ok, that reminded me that at some point A1 had L3 cache. :D

(RTFM before designing next CPU card)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 37 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jul-2004 12:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 31 (Darrin):
>Considering the amount of $hit you've been typing over the last few days, I strongly recomment that you disinfect your keyboard before someone else uses it and catches a nasty disease.

He hasn't spilt any more shit than the others who have joined this little episode called "Does DMA work in Teron?".

Nobody knows shit and yet they are talking about it like they know everything.
Mr.Röndblom (Rönnblom, Röndblond.. how it was spelled.. anyway :) has stood behind his points all the time and tried to back up as much of those as possible, res for that. Maybe we will see in the future if he hit the motherload, or not. Till then I suggest you treat his comments like from others.. just because he is on the "other side" doesn't necessarily mean he is wrong. And it goes the other way too.

Why don't everybody give it a rest already... how can it interest so long.. beats me :)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 38 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jul-2004 12:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Bah.

Oldskool hiphop rules.


You guys know NOTHING =)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 39 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 12:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
OT? On Topic? :P
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 40 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Amon_Re on 08-Jul-2004 12:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (hooligan/dcs):
That's it, i'll call you a blue troll again now! :P
Nah, gimme metal any day of the week
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 41 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 08-Jul-2004 12:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 40 (Amon_Re):
I usuallu don't listen to rock, hardrock let alone metal.. but I kinda liked the new Nightwish album. Can I be semi-bluetroll now? :)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 42 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Cheesegrate on 08-Jul-2004 12:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Darrin):
>Owch!!! Civilians my bottom. Just because the bodies are not wearing a uniform >and there's no dropped sidearms in sight? Hmmmmm...
yeah and it's a 12 year old kid, but hey even the brits think the americans are too trigger happy.

>Considering I'm typing this message from my office in the Middle East with two >Arabs keeping me company (one Christian and one Muslim...
let me guess.. one's your maid and the other your butler... ;)
are you in iraq assisting the occupation?

I think I have a different perspective on the problem and what the REAL Arab community think. Still, if you think CNN or the Daily Mirror know better...
how about al-jazeera?, guess they're not REAL arabs...

>Damn, you nearly got me to stand on my soapbox again!!! :-)
please do, then i can nearly push u off.. ;)
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 43 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Cheesegrate on 08-Jul-2004 12:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 34 (Darrin):
hey darrin, email me you address, i'll send u a copy of fahrenheit for you and your REAL Arab mates.. ;)

cheesgrate_at_yahoo
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 44 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2004 14:22 GMT
The document mentioned is available from MAI's website, no need to play with cached copies: http://www.mai.com/products/BRA660R2.0.pdf

Far more interesting would be to see the errata sheet for the chip.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 45 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2004 14:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Peg2):
I heard GGS Data have some Peg 2 G3 in stock :)
T
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 46 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by brotheris on 08-Jul-2004 14:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (pixie):
After all, that's what were talking here dreams, hobbies

But you see, sometimes computers are tools and when you want to follow your dream, you care that it should be usable and have a future.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 47 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by JKD on 08-Jul-2004 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (hooligan/dcs):
Metal forevaaaaaah! \m/ \m/

Steve :D
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 48 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 08-Jul-2004 15:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (Anonymous):
"quotes from ArticiaS documentation" can not be found from that document.
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 49 of 140ANN.lu
Message removed by Christophe Decanini for violation of ANN's posting rules.
Specific reason from moderator: Insults
ArticiaS: mystery finaly solved ? : Comment 50 of 140ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 08-Jul-2004 15:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 48 (priest):
It's the "You can find similar information using google cache" document.
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