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[Rant] How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers?ANN.lu
Posted on 30-Sep-2004 19:43 GMT by Worried A1 owner131 comments
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I have an AmigaOne XE G4. It cost me a lot of money. It's fairly new and covered by warranty. How will Eyetech compensate me for it's 'issues'/design flaws? Will they

a) Offer me a full refund or a new WORKING motherboard as replacement for free? Since it looks like it's a design flaw with the A1 XE motherboard I would GLADLY accept returning my A1 XE and get a motherboard with new design, like Micro A1 with raiser card instead.
b) Give me for free any and all required additional hardware required to get the AmigaOne product fully working, like UDMA IDE on a PCI card? Second best option but I would still know that my expensive hardware is a bit 'crippled' (perhaps a too strong word?) beneath it and I would still worry about more undiscovered issues.
c) Offer me to send in the motherboard for free for them to "patch"? This would not be pleasant since I would be without my AmigaOne for the time this takes
d) Simply sit silent and wait until the warranty expires before acknowledging the problems? NOT acceptable! :-/ I am obviously referring to this thread here on ann:

http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?view=1096454447&category=events&start=1&293

"IDE UDMA works on VIA and Articia on AmigaOne SE / XE / µA1 MK2 (as I demoed) ...
- ... except when the Ethernet chip goes online and is used."

:-(((


"'- We have made a driver for a Silicon Image 680 PCI IDE UDMA133 controller chip, this does UDMA 133 nicely, including when Ethernet is used at full speed.'

Or instead of buying PCI UDMA controller one could buy PCI ethernet card instead? If problem is triggered by on-board ethernet buying PCI ethernet card could be cheaper and easier. (Just thought, I don't know details.)"

"No, the problem is the wiring to the VIA controller on the motherboard. We already tried the external ethernet card with no success. We have been able to patch XE rev 1 boards to get working VIA DMA, but I am still waiting for patch instructions for my rev 2 board before I can verify that the lockup problem is gone on that board too."

">Why? Buggy ethernet driver/chip?

No, a simple error in the design that lead to bus collisions between the ethernet chip and the via chip."

This is a serious question for a serius subject. Before I bought it I had read posts online from corporate officials from Eyetech, Hyperion, Amiga Inc etc and a lot of other respectable personalities in this community and they all ensured there were no problems at all with the hardware. I spent a lot of money to buy this motherboard and I am worried about my investment! I am very curious how this will be handled!

How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 1 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Agima (199.2.42.221) on 30-Sep-2004 17:47 GMT
Posted by "Worried A1 owner":

Highly unlikely, lost more like a Troll post to me.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 2 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by HammerD (129.100.164.233) on 30-Sep-2004 18:12 GMT
If you are really an A1 owner, check out the A1 Owner forum on AmigaWorld tomorrow. Eyetech stated in this post: (look 4 or 5 down) that they will be responding to this.

http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1752&start=100
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 3 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Agima (199.2.42.221) on 30-Sep-2004 18:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (HammerD):
If he really owned an A1 and had ANY concern about his 'Expensive' motherboard 'WHAT SO EVER' he would have just emailed/contacted Eyetech or his dealer. Obviously posting here isn't going to get him an answer.

This post is clearly just a troll. If he had contacted Eyetech and was posting what solution they proposed to him then maybe this thread would have some merrit.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 4 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 30-Sep-2004 18:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 3 (Agima):
Agima: You are a bit late.. This Fix-discussion has reached other sites long time ago.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 5 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (199.2.42.221) on 30-Sep-2004 18:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 4 (JoannaK):
>>Agima: You are a bit late.. This Fix-discussion has reached other sites long time ago.

I have no idea what you are talking about.

This post is BULL SH*T is all I'm saying. If someone
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 6 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (212.100.251.149) on 30-Sep-2004 18:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 5 (Anonymous):
It is a blatant attempt to extract misinformation and misunderstandings from the other thread below and trumpet it on the front page. This neatly cuts out the rebuttals and real information posted by Stephane.

Business as usual from the bovver boys.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 7 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 30-Sep-2004 19:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 6 (Anonymous):
In the end.. I'm quite sure this entire thread will be removed ...
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 8 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Joe (62.252.192.12) on 30-Sep-2004 19:09 GMT
If you was stupid enough to buy a expensive pos buggy board from the likes of Alan Redhouse then you truly deserve all the misery that board gives you in the future.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 9 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Elwood (81.185.116.228) on 30-Sep-2004 19:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 8 (Joe):
And what do you earn posting such posts ? Hmm...
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 10 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by ece (83.227.20.122) on 30-Sep-2004 19:28 GMT
Well....

Let me think!?! huuuhmmmm . . . I think.. No.. sorry...
uuuuhmm. yeah if... nope.... huuuuuhhmhmhmmmmm....

Yea I´ve got it..........

WHY da hell don´t you ask Eyetech...
Please tell me in which way that can possibly be the wrong place to ask the question??? ENLIGHTEN me pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 11 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by jesus h christ! (193.170.149.1) on 30-Sep-2004 19:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (HammerD):
Alan's response over there:

"And just where did this come from?? The board is NOT wrongly laid out at all.

FWIW the issue appears to be a problem with the VIA not obeying the PCI protocol properly. There are a variety of solutions being tried, and in order to be as open about them as possible I'll post to the A1 owners list at AW sometime tomorrow"

Here we go again.
Yet again contradicting the latest explanation here on ANN from Stéphane (?), and going back to blaming the VIA, which this time supposedly isn't even PCI compliant! What's the explanation of people who have a damn clue, like Mai Logic?

Info will only be posted to the closed Teron customers' forum at the corporate fansite where you can only remain a member if you don't disagree with anything? Shouldn't this info be made available ASAP (like two years ago) on Eyetech's website and from dealers to people before they buy their Terons as well?

New customers won't give a fuck about WHERE the problem is. Articia, layout, or southbridge is irrelevant. There IS a problem, and what will Eyetech do to compensate their customers?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 12 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Joe Blow (4.23.12.2) on 30-Sep-2004 19:38 GMT
Why don't you post your complaint with a real name? Are you afraid that Eyetech might say you don't actually own an AmigaOne?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 13 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 30-Sep-2004 19:57 GMT
In reply to Comment 11 (jesus h christ!):
"Info will only be posted to the closed Teron customers' forum"

Who else would need to know? Stephan said the future production is fixed.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 14 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (208.147.1.5) on 30-Sep-2004 20:24 GMT
Sorry mate but it is your fault! Dump your machine and buy a brand new mA1 with an April fix (tm):

"the µA1 'C' alias MK3 (and further machines) has proper snoop signaling implemented."

Oh and guillard is wrong. Alan Redhouse said the bug is in VIA chip. The motherboard is _fine_. Dont feed the trolls !!
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 15 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (84.9.28.125) on 30-Sep-2004 20:28 GMT
More and more glad I got an amd64 machine with amiga forever end of last year.

I`d be shirty otherwise.

That reminds me, my T shirts still at the printers.

Must be a screen printing firm as they have to leave the shirts to dry which takes time.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 16 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (84.9.28.125) on 30-Sep-2004 20:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 15 (Anonymous):
Club Amiga members need to keep their postal address updated so that merchandise can be shipped to them when ready.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 17 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (208.147.1.5) on 30-Sep-2004 20:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 16 (Anonymous):
Thats right talk dude! Check the newest KMOS homepage if you dont believe !!

Everyone: KMOS !!
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 18 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by 60% surcharge for the AmigaOS user's Protection (193.170.149.1) on 30-Sep-2004 21:23 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Don Cox):
> Who else would need to know? Stephan said the future production is fixed.

Dunno about Stéphan, but don't you see a pattern regarding what's said about "the future" here?

2001.
Teron CX "evaluation" version ("AmigaOne SE"). Sold by Eyetech with known faults that nowhere were revealed "officially" (i.e. not only in forums). Some problems were acknowledged, future versions would be just fine, and those who already bought one were screwed.

Teron CX "evaluation" version is discontinued.

Teron CX "consumer" version ("AmigaOne SE"). Sold by Eyetech with known faults that nowhere were revealed "officially" (i.e. not only in forums). Some problems were acknowledged, future versions would be just fine, and those who already bought one were screwed.

Teron CX "consumer" version is discontinued.

Teron PX ("AmigaOne XE"). Sold by Eyetech with known faults that nowhere were revealed "officially" (i.e. not only in forums). Some problems were acknowledged, future versions would be just fine, and those who already bought one were screwed.

Teron PX is discontinued.

Teron PX, the Revision Which Is Fixed ("AmigaOne XE"). Sold by Eyetech with known faults that nowhere were revealed "officially" (i.e. not only in forums). Some problems were acknowledged, future versions would be just fine, and those who already bought one were screwed.

Teron PX, the Revision Which Is Fixed is still sold.

2004. 2005...
Teron Mini ("Micro AmigaOne") is not yet available, after being a "paper release" in several equally dysfunctional revisions by Mai for 1(?) year, and slightly shorter by Eyetech.

In short: Eyetech are probably the last people to listen to if you're trying to learn about future products and revisions (or current products for that matter).

A decent and normal hardware reseller like Terra Soft simply said "Terra Soft Solutions has determined that it is not, at this point in time, prudent to carry the Teron mainboards nor offer Teron-based Boxer systems." The faulty product was dropped before they were allowed to reach any customers, and it has not been offered again as it would not be prudent to sell it. A public announcement. No bullshit. Broken products will simply not be sold.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 19 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz (69.0.91.237) on 30-Sep-2004 22:19 GMT
I've got to admit, if I'd been able to afford one of the early-run boards, I'd be pissed, too.

That said:

-The 686B's oddities have been known for a while, and AFAIK, should be much less 'harrowing' than the KT133(A) issues everyone mistook the Articia's problems for. Obviously all the x86 boards using the chip don't have to suffer with PIO IDE, even if they may take some (annoying, but non-fatal*) hit on maximum PCI bandwidth. This *should* be curable with a simple firmware upgrade, or a 'hack' in the driver if the system boots in PIO until the point it's loaded.

-The sound bug is more "damning," in the sense that you'd hope it would've been resolved 3 designs ago, but this could be solved by buying users appropriate soundcards. I'm pretty sure a decent (akin to what would've been onboard) *5.1* design can be had for US$20 or less these days, especially if Eyetech talks to whoever they're contracting the boards from.


So... It's not terribly expensive to resolve. It doesn't necessarily require a full hardware tradeback, which... for some reason, I doubt we'd see from Eyetech, though such a thing *would* be as nice a gesture of good-faith and PR face-saving as we've recently seen elsewhere. ;)

To some extent, this 'new level of clarity' would make any traded-back A1s more viable as a 'discount' product than the "permanently crippled" Pegasos Is... and if it really does apply equally to bPlan's batch of Articias, it makes any remaining stock of bare boards that much more interesting, too. [But there's already been a counterclaim to that in the other thread, true.]

---

One question does come to mind: If the deal with the S's SDRAM drivers has been known for so long, why did neither OEM install buffers *on the board,* allowing the use of standard DIMMs at 1/3 the cost? (This goes especially for Eyetech, who're bundling the RAM themselves and paying out the nose to Kingston for it.)


*Used a KT133A/686(A? B?) board for years myself, and while I did notice my SCSI throughput seemed to improve 'downgrading' to a 440BX/PIIX4, the Athlon machine was certainly a hell of a lot faster in every way. I hate to say it, but as long as Via's cock-up is 'recognized' properly (as in: not ignored, allowing data corruption to happen, or 'kludged-over,' forcing PIO 24/7 just to use Ethernet), the *average* home user won't notice at all.

[Blah blah blah -- What I think is going on here is that they're looking to bring PCI throughput and the overall bus state back to spec by jamming it into PIO, which is of course easier, since it doesn't require a greater consideration of what the SNAFU actually is... But the normal schmo will have his 100mbit ethernet plugged into a 1mbit 'broadband' link, while going on and on about the benchmarks and boot time he gets from his UDMA266, 32MB-read-ahead-buffer drive, so it makes more sense to rob Paul (maximum throughput achievable on the bus) to pay Peter ('crippled' bus spec required to please the 686B). This is blindingly obvious, considering it's what 'every other' 686B-using platform has done, so I assume someone's already aware of and working on it, and I'll just be feeding the flames by bringing it up. :P]
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 20 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz (69.0.91.237) on 30-Sep-2004 22:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 14 (Anonymous):
"the µA1 'C' alias MK3 (and further machines) has proper snoop signaling implemented."

Oh and guillard is wrong. Alan Redhouse said the bug is in VIA chip. The motherboard is _fine_. Dont feed the trolls !!


Not that I'm asking you in particular, but anyone care to offer some insight on how snoop signaling *is* implemented? (Is an April-esque CPLD the most likely form this would take, or is this more of an issue somewhere else in the layout or NB itself?)
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 21 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 30-Sep-2004 22:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 20 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
There are couple interesting opinions related to this bugfix..

- Eyetech (mai) purchased April 2 design from Bplan/genesi
- Eyetech (mai) managed to reverse engineer April 2
- Eyetech (mai) did find the problem and were (2 years late) able to make a fix

Anyhow.. It's not so important how they got it.. If they now have a fix, question is: What they are planing to do with those thousand or so SE/XE machines out there? Deny responsibility or admit knowing about bug ...
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 22 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Kolbjřrn Barmen (158.38.161.72) on 30-Sep-2004 22:48 GMT
In reply to Comment 13 (Don Cox):
Anyone who in the future might end up with an affected board perhaps? You know, bought second, third, fourth hand or so, or given away for free.

What's the point in keeping these issues "secret" anyhow?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 23 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz (69.0.91.237) on 01-Oct-2004 01:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 21 (JoannaK):
There are couple interesting opinions related to this bugfix..

- Eyetech (mai) purchased April 2 design from Bplan/genesi
- Eyetech (mai) managed to reverse engineer April 2
- Eyetech (mai) did find the problem and were (2 years late) able to make a fix

Anyhow.. It's not so important how they got it.. If they now have a fix, question is: What they are planing to do with those thousand or so SE/XE machines out there? Deny responsibility or admit knowing about bug ...


You have to reverse-engineer April to be well aware of a publically documented bug in the Via southbridge parts? But I think you're dragging the coherency issue into this, too, at which point it's the he-said-she-said over how much Mai knew, what they discovered after shipping/how they discovered it, and what they did about it.

The lack of (open) communication between Mai, Eyetech, and the Linux developers would seem to have been godawful, while OS4... took this long anyway, so it's hard to guess what Hyperion were informed of and when.

---

If they do 'fix' the 686B quibble to give an option other than jamming the whole thing into PIO (Is the patch in FreeBSD src/sys/dev/ata/ata-chipset.c enough for that? I used to think the function involved was setting registers in the northbridge, but no, that definitely targets the device...), they'll have performance equivalent to every other 686B-based solution on the planet, so I'm not sure there's really a 'problem' there.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 24 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Lando (82.69.46.251) on 01-Oct-2004 02:48 GMT
UK law states that the product must be of satisfactory quality (it must meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as acceptable and be free from defects), as described, and fit for the purpose for which it was sold.

If you feel that your A1 falls short of any of the above, then you can ask Eyetech for a refund, which they are legally obliged to give you, or they may offer to replace the board for one which does meet the above criteria, or repair your board to these standards. If they refuse, you should get in touch with the TSA.

Since the Sale & Supply of Goods to Consumers Regulations 2002, the onus is on the vendor to prove that the goods do meet the above standards, rather than on you to prove that they don't.

I don't know if any of this is relevant to boards purchased outside of the UK.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 25 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 01-Oct-2004 05:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 23 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
Joe: You have mixed up *TWO* different issues.. April fix was due Articia Cache-coherency bug (essential to fix for linux). It has nothign to do with VIA686.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 26 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 01-Oct-2004 05:45 GMT
In reply to Comment 24 (Lando):
Well.. It does not matter anyhow.. Any 'True Amigian' could nor admit that they have been handled like mushrooms.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 27 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 05:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 19 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz):
"I've got to admit, if I'd been able to afford one of the early-run boards, I'd be pissed, too."

I would be disappointed but not surprised. I bought an early run A4000, and it had to have the motherboard replaced. The early A2000s had many faults.

If you buy an early run motherboard for a PC you are likely to have problems needing at least a BIOS update. The difference is that the early run would be sold out in a week or two rather than over a couple of years.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 28 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 01-Oct-2004 06:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Don Cox):
Any smart person woudl wait couple weeks after Mobo release to see first reviews of it. It's woth to wait that time, even though pc-mobos are only 100 or 200 USD
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 29 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 06:54 GMT
In reply to Comment 2 (HammerD):
Hi all! I have one of these Amiga One XE's. I spent a consederable amount of money on that computer, to be able to follow the OS4 development with my own eyes. Now it looks like the motherboard may have issues, and I don't like that. I have no way to check this myself, since *no OS at all* with *fully working IDE DMA* has been publically released yet(!), but I trust Stéphane Guillard and Stefan Burström in this case. I will follow with great interest how Eyetech will handle this situation. And I am quite sure that goes for all of us, not just us Amiga One owners, but also potential customers, potential second hand A1 owners, competitors and all the people that simply likes to follow the Amiga history line.


@ HammerD

> If you are really an A1 owner, check out the A1 Owner forum on AmigaWorld
> tomorrow.

But if one does not like that site and does not want to register there? Wouldn't it be better if Eyetech made a public post on their website, like these things usually is handled?


@ Don Cox

> "Info will only be posted to the closed Teron customers' forum"
>
> Who else would need to know? Stephan said the future production is fixed.

Everyone! Everyone interested in the Amiga, all potential customers (there are possibly still motherboards at some dealer), but most important, all the potential *second hand* "customers"! Being as open as possible is the only way to go, trying to hide problems on closed forums gives a bad after-taste in my mouth, it gives the impression of "trying to get away" with something. I am sure most of us feels the same, and that is why companies usually is frank and open about any problems, and focus on correcting them or compensate their customers in a proper way instead. Look, I am not judging Eyetech (yet), they may very well still decide to discuss these things in the open. I understand that this problem is discovered quite recently(?), and of course we should give them some time to deal with it before anyone comes to any hasty conclusions.


@ Anonymous (208.147.1.5)

> Oh and guillard is wrong. Alan Redhouse said the bug is in VIA chip. The
> motherboard is _fine_. Dont feed the trolls !!

Look, we didn't buy a chip, we bought *motherboards*. If the motherboard can't be used with the on board UDMA IDE and Ethernet (neither the on board controller, nor ethernet on PCI cards) at the same time, then I fail to see how you can possibly come to the conclusion that "the motherboard is _fine_"! If the product we bought isn't working properly, I am sure that most of us would be interested in knowing exactly how this could be corrected in a satisfactory way! Besides, I have another motherboard, an x86 motherboard, with this same southbridge chip, and that one works *fine* when using UDMA IDE together with the on board ethernet, *as well* as PCI ethernet cards (I have tried two different, both works). No problems at all!


@ Joe "Floid" Kanowitz

> To some extent, this 'new level of clarity' would make any traded-back A1s
> more viable as a 'discount' product than the "permanently crippled" Pegasos
> Is... and if it really does apply equally to bPlan's batch of Articias, it
> makes any remaining stock of bare boards that much more interesting, too.

Traded back/recycled A1's could perhaps be used the same way as the traded back pre-April Pegasos1's - given away as "phreeboards" to selected developers! :-) They could probably even *be sold* at heavily dicounted prices to people with their eyes open about it, people knowing about the problems but who still are interested in the hardware and thinks a low price is more important than 100% perfection.


@ Lando

> If you feel that your A1 falls short of any of the above, then you can ask
> Eyetech for a refund, which they are legally obliged to give you, or they may
> offer to replace the board for one which does meet the above criteria, or
> repair your board to these standards. If they refuse, you should get in touch
> with the TSA.

I don't think one should have to try to *enforce* their rights upon a company like Eyetech, it would be a lot nicer if Eyetech takes the initiative to handle this situation themselves. It should be in *their* interest to make sure that any customer is happy. I think it's also a matter of decensy, and I believe that their very future will depend on the way they handle this situation. Being open about it and not trying to hide info on closed forums, is part of that IMHO. I hope they go that road. I will follow this development with great interest.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 30 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 07:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Don Cox):
> If you buy an early run motherboard

What are "early run" motherboards in this case?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 31 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (193.170.149.1) on 01-Oct-2004 07:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 27 (Don Cox):
> If you buy an early run motherboard for a PC you are likely to have problems
> needing at least a BIOS update. The difference is that the early run would be
> sold out in a week or two rather than over a couple of years.

WTF???

It's not a matter of production run volumes, it's a matter of time. How much broken stock a seller happens to have remaining should NOT be the customers' problem! It's NOT OK for any seller to continue to sell a broken product, without telling it's broken, just because he happens to still have them in stock. Continuing to order more production runs of the same broken product, while denying the existence of the problem, then saying it's fixed, then saying it will be fixed, then saying something else etc like Eyetech has, is if possible even more reprehensible.

- Fix it for free, or offer a trade-in for another FUNCTIONAL product for free.
- Recall the product and refund customers.

Those are the honest and legal options.
In any case, TELL CURRENT AND FUTURE CUSTOMERS THAT THE PRODUCT IS FLAWED regardless of whether you insist on continuing sales of the product or stop selling it.

If you can't live up to these basic expectations you should get out of the "selling stuff to people" business, or be treated with the same respect as the illegal immigrants who sell pirated copies of brand sunglasses on a blanket in the street.

After three years, it's evident (as some predicted) that the fucking "Amiga" sticker licence has brought a WORSE kind and level of "consumer protection," "quality assurance" etc than Ahmed's misspelled "Georgio Armany" stickers on his cheap sunglasses. One difference being that the alleged "clone" ("AmigaOne") is more expensive than the "original", and that Ahmed's sunglasses actually work as advertised.

How ANYONE with eyes, ears and previous experience with the involved people could POSSIBLY START FORMING THE NOTION that the licensing scheme and this hardware and this licensee in any way could be seen as even remotely positive things for AmigaOS is mindboggling.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 32 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 07:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 30 (takemehomegrandma):
"What are "early run" motherboards in this case?"

Obviously there is no hard definition, but I was thinking of the first couple of thousand.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 33 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 07:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Don Cox):
> Obviously there is no hard definition, but I was thinking of the first couple
> of thousand.

But if the production has been divided on several *small* production runs, stretched over time? During how many years would the first couple of thousand be considered "early"?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 34 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 01-Oct-2004 08:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 32 (Don Cox):
IIRC: They (someone at Hyperion) have stated that no more than thousand (or so) Amigaones have been sold so far.. Anyhow it's a considerable lot to fix.

THMG: a lonmg post but I agree.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 35 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (213.36.104.19) on 01-Oct-2004 08:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 29 (takemehomegrandma):
"Hi all! I have one of these Amiga One XE's"

Since when? So you were lying all those times when you said you would never buy one, have one etc?

So, no you don't, this is a lame excuse to avoid the "it is the business of those that own them only" retort used on this thread.

Eyetech use that A1 forum on aw.net as an official support channel, so live with it and register.

So it would be OK to ring up all potential customers of Pegasos kit and tell them about all the problems Genesi has had with that range from being fit for scrap ( Pegasos 1 ) to being low spec, but working however prone to set itself on fire in certain configurations? Or would that be litigation worthy?

You decide.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 36 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C (81.130.115.197) on 01-Oct-2004 08:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 35 (Anonymous):
I have looked on the AmigaOne Private/Support Channels, no mention of TMHG any where. either he's lying out of his arse or he has registered as another alias/name.

Oh well

Mikey C
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 37 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom (193.11.251.131) on 01-Oct-2004 08:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mikey C):
Wow, that's a very friendly way to treat people who buy the product
you support.. claiming that, when they have problems, they are lying
and never bought it.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 38 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK (213.130.199.15) on 01-Oct-2004 08:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mikey C):
I'd expect someone to use his real name for prouct registration.. (not that I remember ever hearing TMHGM:s real name)
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 39 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by itix (130.234.189.82) on 01-Oct-2004 08:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mikey C):
Or maybe he never registered? Or got free a1 board from friend, whatever...
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 40 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous (193.170.149.1) on 01-Oct-2004 09:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 39 (itix):
Or maybe his account was deleted due to blasphemy? All owners of this piece of hardware who expect support must think the same, anything else would be unconstructive. That's fully normal and goes without saying, right?

(Are we talking about that corporate fansite which tmhg has already said he's not a member of?)

Sorry, gotta go and post dancing bananas after Asus' latest pressrelease and hallucinate about FUD from Epox, otherwise I'll get my rights to support for my Asus mobo forfeited.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 41 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 09:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 36 (Mikey C):
@ Anonymous (213.36.104.19)

> "Hi all! I have one of these Amiga One XE's"
>
> Since when? So you were lying all those times when you said you would never
> buy one, have one etc?

Not lying, I simply changed my mind. When the pre-release version of OS4 was released, I asked GGS Data if I could rent an AmigaOne for a while to test it, and they agreed. I was then offered to buy it on quite flexible terms (I guess I am a good customer ;-)), and I thought "why not, I can always try to sell it later on", so I simply bought it. I am just about to make the final payment.

> So, no you don't, this is a lame excuse to avoid the "it is the business of
> those that own them only" retort used on this thread.

I am an Amiga One owner! For real!

> Eyetech use that A1 forum on aw.net as an official support channel, so live
> with it and register.

Looks like I have to ... :-/

> So it would be OK to ring up all potential customers of Pegasos kit and tell
> them about all the problems Genesi has had with that range from being fit for
> scrap ( Pegasos 1 ) to being low spec, but working however prone to set
> itself on fire in certain configurations? Or would that be litigation worthy?

Hey, why so hostile? What have I done wrong here? I am a customer of an Eyetech product that's all!

This thread is not obviously not about the Pegasos 1, nor Genesi. But when it comes to the Pegasos 1, that one was discontinued, and Genesi has been very open about it's problems. IMHO they have also bent over backwards in order to replace non-April boards with the April patch (they even made two of them). They released a Peg1 version with G4 with an upgrade option (if I remember things correctly), but not many were interested in it. They also offered people to upgrade from Pegasos 1 -> Pegasos 2 at a fair price, a programme that worked fine in most countries, with most dealers and users. Now I am patiently waiting to see what actions Eyetech will decide to take ...


@ Mikey C

> I have looked on the AmigaOne Private/Support Channels, no mention of TMHG
> any where. either he's lying out of his arse or he has registered as another
> alias/name.

Lying out of my arse?! Nice ...

I have not registered yet. I thought I should wait to decide whether I should keep it or sell it, and I was thinking that it would save some trouble for the buyer if the serial number was not already registered in my name. Up to now I have not been in need of any support, and the OS4 update has not been released, so there has simply not been any need for me to register. Besides, I have never liked amigaworld.net, and would prefer to not register there. But it seems like there is no other choice for me now, doesn't it ...?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 42 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 09:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 38 (JoannaK):
> that I remember ever hearing TMHGM:s real name

You have never asked! :-)

The truth is out there to the ones who look carefully! ;-)
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 43 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 09:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (takemehomegrandma):
Johan Johansson!
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 44 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 09:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 42 (takemehomegrandma):
Björn Andersson!

.. am I getting close?
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 45 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 09:42 GMT
In reply to Comment 44 (hooligan/dcs):
Hehe, nope, keep trying ... ;-)
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 46 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Mikey C (81.130.115.197) on 01-Oct-2004 10:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 41 (takemehomegrandma):
>Lying out of my arse?! Nice ...

>I have not registered yet. I thought I should wait to decide whether I should >keep it or sell it, and I was thinking that it would save some trouble for the >buyer if the serial number was not already registered in my name. Up to now I >have not been in need of any support, and the OS4 update has not been released, >so there has simply not been any need for me to register. Besides, I have never >liked amigaworld.net, and would prefer to not register there. But it seems like >there is no other choice for me now, doesn't it ...?

But hang on, how can you claim to be in the know as to what's happening, and be so well informed into the goings on of the AmigaOne when you are not subscribed to the forums where the answers might be????

Hmmmm, do you really have an A1 I ask?

Mikey C
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 47 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Damien (68.213.132.14) on 01-Oct-2004 10:24 GMT
Just goes to show that you shouldn't base your trust on a company that a) doesn't build their own hardware or b) design it to start with.

I think I'll start up a company next week, call it something cool and rebadge some Taiwanese POS motherboard and proclaim it to be the only true successor to the Amiga. Can't go too far wrong with that business plan...

So when will Eyetech et all apologise to Genesi for the flaming over Genesi being honest with the hardware problems of the Teron board.

Damien
(Glad he doesn't work with any Amiga companies anymore)
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 48 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 10:32 GMT
In reply to Comment 46 (Mikey C):
> But hang on, how can you claim to be in the know as to what's happening

Am I really claiming that?

> and be so well informed into the goings on of the AmigaOne

I wouldn't say I am well informed at all! The only things I know about the Amiga One (and OS4) is based on my own experience as a user, and what I have read here on ANN and other public forums, and that's pretty much it!

> Hmmmm, do you really have an A1 I ask?

Yes I have.
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 49 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by Cosmo (80.189.147.2) on 01-Oct-2004 10:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 45 (takemehomegrandma):
Stefan Brodin
How will Eyetech deal with the 'issues' in the A1 against customers? : Comment 50 of 131ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma (Registered user) on 01-Oct-2004 11:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (Cosmo):
Haha, BINGO, give the man a cigar! :-)
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