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[Rant] The current situation..ANN.lu
Posted on 13-Feb-2003 14:17 GMT by AdmV99 comments
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What is the current overview. I am not sure I have all the information, but what is now clear is that all the current amiga projects have hit the rocks, and there is little sign of a long term improvement. Perhaps its just me. But maybe not. I'll just go over the various forces at work here for a moment:

Amiga, Hyperion, Eyetech

External forces:

MAI

External development team

Lawsuit

Customer pressures

Current status: After a difficult road on the hardware front, and now a failure of supply on the part of MAI, the hardware side is at a standstill. The operating system development we are told continues. Now a lawsuit threatens both of these teams with a drain upon already limited resources. How very self destructive.

Genesi, MorphOS

External forces:

MAI

Internal pressures

Internal testing of hardware changes

Customer pressures

OS development lagging behind release standard.

I would regard both of these camps now as the primary projects that occur in the amiga 'sphere'. Both are now badly hampered by a single source supplier, and a lack of parts. It seems that despite both camps making claims, the production aims were always tiny (and thus you have to question some parts of the projects, but back to that in a moment) and production must have been small not to hit shortages earlier.

This does highlight the huge hit both groups are taking in development costs. Whatever the basis of their refusal to work together on their hardware, and thus the reduced possibility of producing in volume, buying parts in volume, and forming strong relations with suppliers, the true folly and stupidity of the selfish interests at work in the amiga 'sphere' are clearly at the fore.

While neither party has enough weight with their supply partner (MAI) it is far more uncertain as to the future supply of chips to either project. The inability to talk to suppliers in terms of bulk unit purchase and volume is and will remain a 'turn off' to suppliers. There is no chance whatsoever of being a tier one style customer if the most units you purchase are in the tens or perhaps hundreds.

In addition, my understanding (and I may be totally wrong on this..) is that MAI are less than happy with what their customers have published and squabbled over. Having your faulty product outed by a supplier is a less than ideal way of keeping good relations. Even now as I type, in every area of the amiga 'sphere' MAI are being universally blamed. Yet, perhaps its not quite true that this is all MAI's fault.

If the original orders were weak or small, its not possible for MAI to do correct production. They may have to work on guaranteed orders or limited FAB production time, and other factors.

Further to this, the (MAI) chip/set has had problems. Now these problems are well documented. But again, having seperate small projects posting information that is broken, or bit part shows the weakness of having the smaller weaker hardware development teams and all the limits that entails.

One simple suggestion to the two projects would be to work together on ordering with MAI if nothing else. By placing the bigger order you guys might get MAI to actually start treating you properly. Even then your orders may not be big enough to bring you to a sensible level.

Now, that aside, both projects are now being hurt badly by several aspects. These vary from customer let-down. Project time line failures, and lack of delivery.

The hopes of many a user were based on an idea that finally after a long time, two groups (wether you prefer one group, or another, or if like me you have some interest in general) was based on a premise that both were built and aimed (at least thats a public perception) on an ideal of being big enough to get something done, both in the OS sense, and the hardware sense.

Sadly we again have ego success over logic. None of the participants was capable of such a project. Both OS teams have pretty vast projects, that are in truth more than they can complete, at least in the short time-frame suggested publicly at the start of the projects.

Both hardware teams had large projects and limited resources. To be fair, both teams have produced, but look at what they are now working under. Due to the limited sizes of their production runs, the supply is at a trickle for key components. Neither party has enough weight to work with the key supplier to make things happen, and both parties are suffering badly as all the development is now not getting return investment via sales.

Further, consumer confidence is being annihilated by a lack of trust, and failures to deliver that is hurting both parties very badly. What is certain is that a lack of willingness to work together has caused part of this. The other downside is that to a large degree, production costs are far higher on both sides when refusing to work together. Its commercial suicide. What is worse is that with relations all around, MAI are or at least seem to be in no hurry to assist, and these parties continued war amongst themselves there looks to be little sign that a long term answer to increased production, supply and reduced purchasing costs for the end customer will be found.

And my thinking here, is that as an untimate cost to this, is that this factor leaves all the OS development shattered upon the broken landscapes of the amiga wars from the past. With now real hardware base, there is no software base. Even if there were, what is even worse is that both parties have been so stupid in terms of collaboration, that even if you did get a hardware base, that base is split due to differences about the OS. Show me a company anywhere in the world that activly looks to cull its possible customer base by 50%.

*Only in the amiga 'sphere' is it likely people can be so stupid.*

Right about now, both parties are, or will soon enough come to reason that they have or are failing, or will fail longterm. One escapee MIGHT be the ex Visicorp and phase 5 inspired people/project with a set top box style project that is there real focus anyway (or so they make out.)

You could see long term after the whole thing breaks one party taking most of whats left of the IP and using it elsewhere. But the likelyhood of an amiga desktop system will never ever return based on the current projects progress, and its all down to people having too much ego, and a refusal to work together for the benefit of even themselves(not just the end customer) is reaping the whirlwind.

It remains inconceivable to me that OS development and costs will be supported without hardware options, and sales. Therefore, some things MUST occur or this will mean the end:

1. The hardware teams/companies begin to work co-operatively (at least in supply of some parts and working with a supplier).

2. OS development dovetails into a cross hardware end user satisfying conclusion, and thus opens each vendor up into a 50% prospective larger market.

3. Customer care and general information is both more forthcoming and has a higher level of honesty, and a lower level of deceit, lies, fud, claim and counter claim. Also a keener understanding that even despite the cloud cookoo land mentality that they can do things by themselves, the amiga 'sphere' is as are all spheres, a sim-biotic sphere.

4. Competition can be healthy if its end product is the market 'sphere' growth. Competition that is damaging or causes shrinkage or damage to the market sphere is self defeating long term. Co-operation between competitors is _NOT_ALWAYS_BAD.

5. Customers, and potential customers ideally need to impress upon these teams/projects, that they MUST work together. They must demand hardware and software that both works, and is built with a level of co-operation and compatability. No developer in their right mind is going to double every area of work to try and sell their products on TWO OS systems, and different disperate hardware, dongles, DRM and protection rackets.

6. Longer term production, supply and end customer satisfaction must be renewed.

I would urge any customer who is interested in any or several projects to make it clear to these teams and projects that certain criteria has to exist, for them to be acceptable.

Unless the customers are more savvy than in the past, the customer will be a loser, as well as these project teams. You will again see the days of money being handed over to suppliers and non delivery/companies going bust, and all that goes with it.

Lastly, as I have recently said 'Trust no one' at least until they show why they are worth you trust, money or concern.

Kind Regards

AdmV

The current situation.. : Comment 51 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Feb-2003 21:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 49 (MIKE):
He didnt mention any aminet stuff YOU FOOL.
The current situation.. : Comment 52 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 13-Feb-2003 22:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (logain):
exactly, they are no more linked in the main page (but they can be found by digging deeper if you know what to look for ... like the zines)
The current situation.. : Comment 53 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Troels Ersking on 13-Feb-2003 22:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 51 (Anonymous):
Forget it... MIKE is just trolling.

Wonder why he can't (or will not) see the diffrence between Aminet patches/hacks and new rewrites that in a clean way gives OS4 the same features.

Anyway, the kernel was also demoed at WOASE (i think it was...).
The current situation.. : Comment 54 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 13-Feb-2003 22:24 GMT
In reply to Comment 53 (Troels Ersking):
i know.

I was going to mention the re-writes & stuff but just could not be bothered with saying it to him.
The current situation.. : Comment 55 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 13-Feb-2003 22:50 GMT
AdmV, I guess that is a nice long rant and your heart is in the right place,
but I do not think you are being realistic. The time for Amiga Inc. and Co.
to team up with MorphOS and Co. was about 18 months ago. Having the ROM
images and Workbench software in addition to the Pegasos and MorphOS
technology would have speeded up a product offering. However that moment in
history is gone. Pegasos/MorphOS is a complete solution unto itself.

Your idea that together both sides would have the purchasing power to get a
price break from Mai is partly logical, but Genesi buys a chip and Eyetech
buys an entire board so I don't see how the idea applies.

You raise issues about people getting boards, and trust, and all I can say
is that I got my Pegasos and I find Genesi and all the great people who work
there extremely trustworthy. They bend over backwards for their customers.
The current situation.. : Comment 56 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Atheist2 on 13-Feb-2003 23:10 GMT
Cebit March 12, 2003, that's in 25 days.

Should a poll be made on wether it'll be ready to be shown? Nah, probably a waste of time.

Any clairvoyants among us?

Amiga! When oh when....
The current situation.. : Comment 57 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Chris Allen on 13-Feb-2003 23:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (Atheist2):
It often saddens me to find that there is so much intelligence in the Amiga society and the time that an individual has to utilise this intelligence is often wasted trying to justify/clarify a point or to defend themselves.

Passion is a strange thing - especially when it is orientated purely round a piece of hardware...
The current situation.. : Comment 58 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by MarkTime on 13-Feb-2003 23:30 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Daniel Miller):
Well good service is better than bad service, but at that price, they should come to my home and build a room or something.
The current situation.. : Comment 59 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by JoannaK on 14-Feb-2003 00:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (Atheist2):
"Should a poll be made on wether it'll be ready to be shown? Nah, probably a waste of time.
Any clairvoyants among us?"

Well.. Alan Redhouse announced Aone-XE production is late, so they will not be delivered to end-users during february. But if his estimation holds those should be available by the time of Cebit.

But... Real problem at the moment is status of OS4. I'm not good making any predictions so instead I tried to ask these questions from Hyperion people soon after that Ben Yoris'es OS4 comments were put into boards. But they never answered to me on Amiga.org.. See threads like "No OS4 Before end of year" and "OS4 development on track" for discussion...

Bellow is copy of those questions they did not want to answer then.. Most likely they don't want now nor anytime later.

"Ok. Few obvious questions cause your answer is 'in shedule and rocking' and I have learned to suspect anyone giving those:

A) Does it boot up to WorkBenck on PPC only .. (like CSPPC)?

B) Is that mentinoed 68k Intergation finished?

C) Can OS4 be demoed on Cebit?

D) ... running on Amigaone?

E) ... and using well known 68k apps?
"

Anyone willing to make a guess of their current status? ;)
The current situation.. : Comment 60 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by annonum on 14-Feb-2003 03:21 GMT
In reply to Comment 28 (takemehomegrandma):
Amazing after all this crap about Amiga "custom chips" we see another company with "custom chips" and the same old chat!

Your thoughts?
The current situation.. : Comment 61 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 14-Feb-2003 07:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (JoannaK):
This is typical.

Why are you not asking the tougher question:

Why have both parties promised something that they can't deliver?

Both MOS and AOS4 are neither truly 'Release standard' ready, and neither looks to reach that state any time soon.

The CUSTOMER is being fed horseshit, and being given misinformation,disinformation, and both sides try to muddy the water along with their supporters.

The MOS customers feel privilaged to have MOS, and I understand why. But THE ONLY release standard software available for any of these systems is LINUX, not any form of amiga software.

Now you should all ask long, hard questions, why, and when and how. Only when these companies answer these and produce commercially viable co-operative efforts will you have any chance of having a system, developer base, userbase, community base, hardware base to move forwards.

Unless you prefer a disjointed bunch of splinter groups carrying out failing projects from their living rooms, and computers with non functional software, and only funtional hardware if you are lucky (depending on the OS..)

Is it not time that the peer pressure from the community was finally brough to bear upon those who supposedly wish to act in favour of such a customer base?

AdmV
The current situation.. : Comment 62 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 14-Feb-2003 08:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 55 (Daniel Miller):
"You raise issues about people getting boards, and trust, and all I can say
is that I got my Pegasos and I find Genesi and all the great people who work
there extremely trustworthy. They bend over backwards for their
customers. "

As any computer dealer needs to, especially when selling a very
expensive niche model.
The current situation.. : Comment 63 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 14-Feb-2003 08:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 59 (JoannaK):
"B) Is that mentinoed 68k Integation finished? "

What is "finished"?

1. looks like it's working now
2. working quite well but buggy
3. not many bugs now
4. hardly any bugs or problems
5. runs every program that runs on Amithlon
6. absolutely perfect, no bugs have been found for months

There is not a single moment when you can say software is "finished".
If you want (6) it will probably be a year or two.
The current situation.. : Comment 64 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 14-Feb-2003 08:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (AdmV):
"Why have both parties promised something that they can't deliver? "

Because only very optimistic people would undertake such a project.

Without optimists we wouldn't have any computers at all (which might
be a good thing).

I think they will deliver, but it will take ten times as long as they
expected. This is usual for programming.
The current situation.. : Comment 65 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Lennart Fridén on 14-Feb-2003 08:13 GMT
Good analysis AdmV. Too bad Amiga and Genesi are so far from each other that unless a third party steps in or a miracle happens, the Amiga will no reincarnated through either of them.

Here's to AROS, the last sane Amiga project in existance, or so it seems.
The current situation.. : Comment 66 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 14-Feb-2003 08:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 65 (Lennart Fridén):
Hi Lennart,

I disagree, AROS has even less of a feature set and has less chance of full usage than even these two borked projects.

Don, maybe you are right, but if I am right, neither of these two groups has the funds/time/support to last 10x what was planned. The customers won't wait, and in OS terms, even if its half as bad as you and I kind of think, we are still 3-5 years away from full completion. I would say that that is a fair time to write an OS from scratch, but these lunatics think they can do it in no time with half the resources they could use, and aim at selling to only 50% of the possible customer base because they are too stupid to realise their rank immature, incompetant, pedantic idiocy.

AdmV


'Good analysis AdmV. Too bad Amiga and Genesi are so far from each other that unless a third party steps in or a miracle happens, the Amiga will no reincarnated through either of them.

Here's to AROS, the last sane Amiga project in existance, or so it seems.'
The current situation.. : Comment 67 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Andy on 14-Feb-2003 08:49 GMT
One thing to be cleared:

Eyetech are cheap mongers ONLY - so they is not capable to do ANY development at all (You all knew that from the begining). bPlan does not need any other trader than Thendic so it is stupid idea to get them together (bPlan & Eyetech). Hyperion is 3-ppl company that is not capable of doing serious projects as WinNT or Linux... The games porting is done by one man projects many times so it is not requred level (operating system design and implementation). Set-top-boxes is devices that have nothing to do with ATX board (they are cheap and produced in huge quatities);

Sequel: In the near future not Teron nor Pegasos will got decent operating system except Linux; bPlan - cannot produce their board in decent quantity (compared to Taiwanese) so Pegasos boards will lose their charm very quickly durring this year when cheap and fast x86-Linux boxes apear in the end of year (minimum 1Gb DDR 1,5Ghz CPU ATA133 FSB >300Mhz at price ~$300...400); The Teron have more chances to get mass Linux market but seems it will lose this battle to x86 same as all Apple boxes (slow, expensive, not flexible); So called "Amiga market" (as for me it's just a 10000 of enthusiasts) is to small to overcome key hindrances on the way of new platform becoming; WE ALL NEED DECENT OS with maturity level as Linux but sequel of AOS39; probably AROS project the way to go...
The current situation.. : Comment 68 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 14-Feb-2003 09:50 GMT
In reply to Comment 61 (AdmV):
AdmV wrote:

> The MOS customers feel privilaged to have MOS, and I understand why. But
> THE ONLY release standard software available for any of these systems is
> LINUX, not any form of amiga software.

You evidently want to shut your eyes and put your hands over your ears. The
Pegasos runs MorphOS as "release standard software," not Linux. Pegasos
users are running MorphOS. In the mailing lists, in the customer reviews,
in the chat rooms, Pegasos users mainly talk about running MorphOS. It is
possible to run YDL on the Pegasos, and some people are doing dual
installations, but that is not the standard.

I see where you are going. You want to make an equivalency between Pegasos
and the Mai machine marketed by Eyetech because neither is in the state of
being in a slick cardboard box on a retailers shelf, like for instance an
A500 used to be. But this equivalency is false. Pegasos and MorphOS is out
there being used daily by regular Amigans. People sign off on emails that
they are on a Pegasos, and talk about it in chat rooms. The system is
demonstrated publicly with ten machines running a wide range of software,
running stably. I know, I was there. So you think you're the authority?

Please open your eyes and take your hands away from your ears.
The current situation.. : Comment 69 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 14-Feb-2003 09:59 GMT
In reply to Comment 66 (AdmV):
"Don, maybe you are right, but if I am right, neither of these two groups has the funds/time/support to last
10x what was planned. The customers won't wait, and in OS terms, even if its half as bad as you and I kind
of think, we are still 3-5 years away from full completion."

I don't think it's that bad. I would say Hyperion have already taken
about 8x as long as they expected.

An OS is never "complete". I do expect to see something that runs on
PPC and is functionally at least as "complete" as AmigaOS on 68k
within a couple of months now. The exception being the traditional
Amiga strength - video editing and effects.

If "complete" means including all the gimmicks that are in Windows, we
will probably never get there.
The current situation.. : Comment 70 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 14-Feb-2003 10:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Daniel Miller):
I think what AdmV meant with "release standard software," was that MorphOS is not yet very mature product. Which is completely true. Even Genesi representatives speak of it as "targetted to technically oriented people".
((When people buy a product they expect it to fullfill it's feature list and them being able to use all devices/ports/buses of the motherboard and that is not the case with pegasos+MorphOS combination (last time when I checked it).))
The current situation.. : Comment 71 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 14-Feb-2003 10:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 68 (Daniel Miller):
Sadly I will call you a liar sir.

MOS is not a 'release, or completed OS'.
I am not attacking MOS based on this. I am attacking the complete current package given to customers because IT IS NOT Complete, finsished, polished, do you get me?

I am sitting here saying 'Boy am I tired of this crap people have shovelled for a number of years, and as a consumer, I am ENTITLED to recieve goods of fair quality, not half completed software, hardware, with dubious compliance with consumer law, and just as dubious warranty, replacement and long term development, testing and so forth'.

I am not some form of enthustiast, who is willing to take faulty hardware, and half completed beta software. This is not some form of shareware hardware and software deal.

You don't have a choice not to pay if your software or hardware is shit. So therefore you have to think like a person who wants a product. And a working, completed product at that.

If you wish to pertain that when a pegasos is shipped the end user recieves an OS of marketable, completed quality, (I talk about MOS here, and its not the fault of the MOS team, some of the aspirations in that area are fantastic) and that is part and parcel of the core issue here.

AdmV
AdmV
The current situation.. : Comment 72 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Feb-2003 11:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 18 (Mirror):
I have received nothing for my 50 euros... no t-shirt, no newsletter, nothing.

I have sent Amiga 3 emails now and have had no reply.

I wanted to return to the amiga after several years away... I dont think I'll bother.

I am seeking legal advice.
The current situation.. : Comment 73 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 14-Feb-2003 11:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 72 (Anonymous):
You and many others have suffered like this, and sadly often the legal route to satisfaction is misleading.

It might well cost you more than your $50 to even get a sniff of your funding back.
I suspect there is enough evidence for a class action lawsuit against AI but that again has limits like only being US based.

Again, I will stress, the key most vital thing for you to do is deal with reputable, TRUSTWORTHY, reliable companies who operate properly. Any person CONSIDERING spending their money in the amiga 'sphere' should do what apple have used in their sales blurb, its unrelated, but, 'Think Differently'.

AdmV
The current situation.. : Comment 74 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Johan Rönnblom on 14-Feb-2003 12:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (AdmV):
AdmV, I agree that MorphOS is not a complete, finished, polished
CONSUMER grade OS. Is it "fit for release"? I think yes, but only for
a specific group, namely those willing to be early adopters of
something that is still in the works and will be for some time to
come.

Now, I don't see BBRV or anyone claim otherwise. So I think the people
who are buying a Pegasos with MorphOS now know what they are getting.
So what's the problem? Of course we would all like development to be 1
year ahead of now, but some realism never hurts.
The current situation.. : Comment 75 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Feb-2003 13:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 73 (AdmV):
"You and many others have suffered like this, and sadly often the legal route to satisfaction is misleading.

It might well cost you more than your $50 to even get a sniff of your funding back. "

So what exactly do you suggest we do?

Give up and let the theiving liars at AInc get away with mass fraud? Sorry, that's NOT an acceptible option.

Besides, you are forgetting that if one obtains a successful judgement against AInc, then not only does one get one's $50 back, but one ALSO gets AInc to pay one's entire legal costs.
The current situation.. : Comment 76 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 14-Feb-2003 13:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Anonymous):
Hi,

No, let me clarify, what I mean is this:

I do not know that Ainc have run out of funds to make T shirts. But that is a possible reason. They may have had high intentions (Just as you could say about every other 'Pre-Order-DISTASTER' that has occured in 'Amiga Spheres' in the past) but the end customer is now out of pocket, or at least seems to be, and AI do not respond to requests from these paying customers.. So rather than call them theives, call yourself a creditor..

'So what exactly do you suggest we do?'

Well I'll stick to my general line which is, don't give people money for something that you can't get, and if you are so stupid to pre pay to amiga sphere companies, and find they don't deliver, or only ship a half finished product, well.. you were warned..

'Give up and let the theiving liars at AInc get away with mass fraud? Sorry, that's NOT an acceptible option.'

Well, looks like you have little choice.. (I'll say why in a moment..)

'Besides, you are forgetting that if one obtains a successful judgement against AInc, then not only does one get one's $50 back, but one ALSO gets AInc to pay one's entire legal costs.'

herein lies the difficulty. I suspect Ainc have left rather a lot of leeway for themselves in their promotion. I also suspect that if the reason you have not got you T shirt is due to a lack of funds, chasing a broke company via the courts is likely to not get you far anyway.

Even if they are not broke, your legal costs are only paid for later, which means you have to pay upfront all your costs, and bearing in mind the heavy burden this may place on you, and given there is no guarantee you can win if they have made a watertight promotion (in terms of its their choice of when to deliver) I suspect that your best bet is to let it go.

You got scammed, and you lost. Sorry :) The only lighter note is that its $50, and not a more serious amount, and in that you got off lighter than some Phase 5 and other supplier customers.

But please, do feel free to back my idea of giving these guys a harder line so you do get a better deal. I support you and every other amiga person who has been ripped off, its just you prefer to argue with me on a semantic basis instead of agree with an underlying idea that has reasonable logic really...

Lastly, to make it clear, I AM not for or against any particular supplier. Suppliers in most areas have some guilt with this behaviour. (Phase 5, Amiga Inc, and hosts of others..)

AdmV
The current situation.. : Comment 77 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Feb-2003 14:14 GMT
In reply to Comment 47 (logain):
Amiga DE - Committed Applications as of 9/14/00
[...]
Eat The Whistle
[...]

Wow, the game I wrote 4 years ago has been in development for AmigaDE and I've never seen DE at all :)

I wonder where they got the titles for those lists. Maybe through google with the key "amiga game"...
The current situation.. : Comment 78 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 14-Feb-2003 15:22 GMT
In reply to Comment 69 (Don Cox):
> If "complete" means including all the gimmicks that are in Windows, we
> will probably never get there.

You are right. And the question is: do we ever *want* to get there?

(This might be slightly OT)
I have allways thought that the beauty of AmigaOS is that it's lean and clean; a working but somewhat empty structure that the user fills with whatever he or she wants. You installs the programs you want, you make the assigns you want, you give it the look and feel you want. You customize your own system exactly the way you want, both in appearance and functionality. This has never been possible on Windows. But to be able to do that, you can not start with a bloated "factory" installation.

Most of the "gimmicks" is out there for the Amiga too anyway, but you have to get it yourself. I kind of like that approach. There will also be some bundled gimmicks together with both OS4 and MOS, but as I see it, this is only a mean of convenience. You will still have the freedom of choise that Windows lacks.
The current situation.. : Comment 79 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 14-Feb-2003 15:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 77 (Anonymous):
No, they listed plenty of games that were platform exclusive, ie were never designed, created or licensed to be available for more than one platform. These games were never coming to the PC, let alone the Amiga or AmigaDE. If you want to be kind you might assume that Bill added a new game each time he received an incoherent fan email of the form

From: CD32luvr@aol.com
To: friend@amiga.com
Subject: Fnal phantasy

ME i am the totla freak S Sot leader dude. Amiga D Environment have kkk rad grafix million times better than PeeCee blx, Sony blx. Atari blx.!!! all our nu stuf COMING on Amiga?!, make it hapn PeeC sukorz Apple Whackk, Onli amiga mak it happni. Amiga
Amiga. Amiga. Amiga. PeeCee sukorz. Bye.
The current situation.. : Comment 80 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by takemehomegrandma on 14-Feb-2003 15:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (AdmV):
> MOS is not a 'release, or completed OS'.

Well, MorphOS has IMHO not yet reached the point where it can be boxed and sold as a separate stand-alone product. I grant you that. But I can tell you this: MorphOS is complete enough to be usable. I can use MorphOS on my Pegasos for allmost everything I once used my old Amiga for. From my experiances I would say that it's as stable as any Amiga system can ever be. And it works. The experianced Amiga users that buys a Pegasos today will feel "right at home" and they will have no problem in using it, adding software to it, customizing it, and so on ...

(My oppinions above is based on my experiences from the "pre-christmas" release of the BT2 OS version. I have not yet downloaded the latest version.)
The current situation.. : Comment 81 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 14-Feb-2003 18:34 GMT
I thought ppl payed Amiga.inc Ł50 for club membership & some money of the Aone when its released.

I would never pay Ł50 for a T-shirt or a newsletter these were just extras.

Just like the clocks & crap you get when you sign up with some pension & health schemes.

Or do you really think ppl sign up just for the clock.
The current situation.. : Comment 82 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Xeyes on 14-Feb-2003 20:36 GMT
In reply to Comment 81 (Alkemyst):
> Or do you really think ppl sign up just for the clock.

Let's put it this way, if the bank I'm investing my money in can't financially handle the responsibility of a frickin clock, then my money is best saved somewhere else. If the small things are overwhelming, the large things are impossible.
The current situation.. : Comment 83 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 14-Feb-2003 21:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 71 (AdmV):
I've learned not to get high blood pressure when some anonymous entity
insults me on a board. It seems kind of cowardly, though. Put your name
on it.

Of course I didn't lie. I call on you "AdmV" to either specifically
cite some lie I have said or apologize. Surely you can't be extending
me a grave personal insult because I said MorphOS is release standard
software for the Pegasos while you say it is Linux?
The current situation.. : Comment 84 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Alkemyst on 15-Feb-2003 02:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 82 (Xeyes):
No your way is not the case.

As Amiga.inc is not a bank.

Money is not the Product.

You bought membership to the club.

the T-Shirt is a gift & no time scale was given to when you would get it.
The current situation.. : Comment 85 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 15-Feb-2003 17:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 56 (Atheist2):
Don't think EyeAM's around these days :)

>Any clairvoyants among us?
The current situation.. : Comment 86 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by KenH on 15-Feb-2003 17:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 75 (Anonymous):
Here's a novel idea....How about waiting until the things you were promised are actually ready. That's probably what your legal eagles will tell you anyway. It's like saying "I want a 7 course meal" in the depest depths of the Amazon jungle! It ain't gonna happen....for a while ;P

>So what exactly do you suggest we do?
The current situation.. : Comment 87 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 15-Feb-2003 20:52 GMT
In reply to Comment 83 (Daniel Miller):
No I won't apologise. You spoke a concise and clear UNTRUTH regarding MOS which is not 'Release standard'. Neither did I make any claim regarding linux, nor MOS being Linux.

As for my so called cowardice, I regard your defensive comments, and misinformation regarding MOS, given the feeling that I have is you know nothing beyond anyone else who does not work for Genesi. Your cowardice is accepting that vendors can rip you off, preferring to believe that over the truth.

As for identity, I do not know you, either by your real name or other details. I know not where you live, nor who you are, nor any of your personal details. Therefore, roughly speaking, you may remain Daniel, and I shall remain AdmV. You need not respond to that issue, as I care nothing for discussing that aspect further.

None of this is to say MOS is and has not made terrific progress, but that is beside the point.

AdmV

_________
You said:
'I've learned not to get high blood pressure when some anonymous entity
insults me on a board. It seems kind of cowardly, though. Put your name
on it.

Of course I didn't lie. I call on you "AdmV" to either specifically
cite some lie I have said or apologize. Surely you can't be extending
me a grave personal insult because I said MorphOS is release standard
software for the Pegasos while you say it is Linux?'
The current situation.. : Comment 88 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 15-Feb-2003 21:09 GMT
In reply to Comment 87 (AdmV):
AdmV, you dumb buffoon. You only make yourself look bad. Everything I said
was true, I just didn't know your special personal definition of "release
standard software." I understood the words by their plain English meaning
ie. the software that is released with every Pegasos is "release standard
software." Such as I got with mine.

Yes, you did make a claim regarding Linux, in comment #61. You said "THE
ONLY release standard software available for any of these systems is LINUX,
not any form of amiga software." Do I call you a liar for denying it now?
I didn't get any Linux with my Pegasos, but you know everything right?

You skunk. If you were a man, you wouldn't pull this crap.
The current situation.. : Comment 89 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV on 15-Feb-2003 21:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Daniel Miller):
Point of fact:


At least to me, the only software that is release standard would be a form of PPC linux (which I agree is not supplied, BUT that just allies up to my issue being that you customers ARE getting a raw deal), but I digress, you and I will not agree, and I will no more respond to your stupidity, as I would to your insults.

And its not me attacking MOS, I just happen to think that selling hardware without supplying a OS of 'release quality' in THIS particular instance, given the high price of package is not good.
Nothing to say its actually wrong to do this, just my 2 cents.

If MOS is not of release quality, I think you should get a form of Linux WITH the sale.

AdmV
The current situation.. : Comment 90 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 06:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 88 (Daniel Miller):
"I didn't get any Linux with my Pegasos"

Awww... But you should have got one!

Several pegasos selling companies mention it and at pegasosppc.com: "Two operating systems included : MorphOS, Linux Debian and Mac On Linux"

(I know companies outside Amigaworld would not get away with that kind of policy.)
The current situation.. : Comment 91 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 17-Feb-2003 11:20 GMT
In reply to Comment 90 (priest):
I got my Pegasos some time ago. I think the inclusion of Debian Linux on the
MorphOS CD is a new development. I am sure that Genesi would send me a Linux
CD if I asked for one.

Really though, the reason I bought a Pegasos is to be able to run Amiga
programs. If I wanted Linux I could buy a Lindows PC on the cheap.
The current situation.. : Comment 92 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 17-Feb-2003 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 91 (Daniel Miller):
Still, the Linux "included" part is missleading.
The current situation.. : Comment 93 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 17-Feb-2003 13:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 92 (priest):
Exactly what do you find misleading about it?
The current situation.. : Comment 94 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 18-Feb-2003 06:01 GMT
In reply to Comment 93 (Daniel Miller):
It can not be that hard to understand.

"Two operating systems included : MorphOS, Linux Debian and Mac On Linux"

Linux and MOL has not been included.

The thing does not change even if YOU do not care about it.

(while we are at it: also it would be more fair to say that the MorphOS release is only mature enough for advanced/technically minded users and that it does not necessary full fill those items mentioned in the advertised featurelist. All those are things that are revealed if you from the correct Genesi persons, but that does not come clear when you read the sales/marketing material from official web pages)
The current situation.. : Comment 95 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 18-Feb-2003 08:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (priest):
Oh... "necessarily" was written incorrectly and "ask" is missing...
The current situation.. : Comment 96 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 18-Feb-2003 13:37 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (priest):
Priest, the only thing I can think of is that there are some language
difficulties here. Did you read my comment where I said that the addition
of Debian Linux is *new?* And the part where I said I bought my Pegasos
*months ago?* If you put those two statements together, you will realize
that when I bought my Pegasos there was no promise of Linux included.

Nobody told me I would get Linux. I got MorphOS preinstalled. So there
is nothing misleading in my case.

I think Genesi does say NOW that Linux comes with the Pegasos, in addition
to MorphOS (the standard release software for the Pegasos). If they
did not live up to that NOW, then yes that would be misleading, or even
false advertising. However as far as I know they DO provide it now.
The current situation.. : Comment 97 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by priest on 18-Feb-2003 19:55 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Daniel Miller):
>Did you read my comment where I said that the addition
of Debian Linux is *new?* And the part where I said I bought my Pegasos
*months ago?*

I surely do not know when you bought it and what is the date when the information of included linux distro first time appeared.
(I only have references since early december and people who got pegasos in January still received them only with betatester2 SW CD)

> If you put those two statements together, you will realize
> that when I bought my Pegasos there was no promise of Linux included.

Ok if you say so.

...
>...If they
>did not live up to that NOW, then yes that would be misleading, or even
>false advertising.

If some listed features/items need to be downloaded somewhere or asked separately (or something is currently totally missing), it should be said in pegasosppc.com, Vesalia, etc, etc....

Genesi does not need false advertising.
(I wish they would fine tune the information as well, while they make the site looking pretty... I think the GFX was updated again today/yesterday.)

>However as far as I know they DO provide it now.

There was discussion about this at amiga.org, I have not had time to check how it ended finally.
The current situation.. : Comment 98 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by Daniel Miller on 18-Feb-2003 20:49 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (priest):
Priest wrote "there was discussion about this at amiga.org, I have not had time to check how it ended finally."

This is the problem with you and Vorlon. You do not know, and yet you still make complaints. And when people who actually know talk to you, you still won't listen.
The current situation.. : Comment 99 of 99ANN.lu
Posted by AdmV0rl0n on 20-Feb-2003 11:51 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (Daniel Miller):
I think you miss the whole point:

That being that ANY company that wishes to sell in the amiga 'sphere' should do so with both the best of intentions, and best customer service bar none.

Anything less now just leads to more problems for users and mother companies.

AdmV
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