[News] Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! | ANN.lu |
Posted on 27-Mar-2004 18:34 GMT by samface (Edited on 2004-03-29 02:28:03 GMT by Teemu I. Yliselä) | 143 comments View flat View list |
From http://www.mindrelease.net/amiga-thendic/#65:
REPLY in Support of Motion filed by Plaintiffs Genesi Sarl, Thendic Electronics Components re 49 MOTION to Modify the Order Granting Specific Performance, (LT, ) (Entered: 03/25/2004)
Highlights:
Richard Hughes, Attorney for "Thendic", accuses Bill McEwen of perjury, refering to Bill McEwen's deposition taken on August 14, 2003, nearly four months following the sale Amiga's OS system to Itec wherein he testifies that Amiga's assets included its Intellectual Property Rights to AmigaOS.
Bill Buck testifies as a person with "'a unique knowledge base regarding Amiga'", refering to the days of when he was the CEO of a company that was partnered with ESCOM to develop and promote The Amiga Operating System through a hardware platform, claiming that "'applications such as a web-browser, an MP3 player, and a mail client are application programs that adhere to an operating system just as Microsoft Outlook Express is an e-mail application that works with Windows'". Furthermore, he concludes that "'If the Amiga DE Operating System did not include an operating system and was touted as beeing only an "application" as Amiga now contends, it could not have been promised or discussed integration of Java, MP3 and mail client as stated in the ("Agreement")'".
Bill Buck claims that he was the one who suggested that the Amiga Operating system and the AmigaDE should be seperate enteties as an explanation to his "'Amiga OS is an operating system, DE is something different that makes alot of things work in other than Amiga operating system environments'" statement.
Bill Bucks states: "'I believe the mail attributed to 'Fleecy Moss' was and still is from Fleecy Moss"'.
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 51 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by hammer on 28-Mar-2004 06:48 GMT | In reply to Comment 46 (Bill Toner): >How did versions of Windows previous to the "integration" step possibly >exist? They're trying to do the same with Media Player
Note that “Media Player” has been included with Windows since version 3.1. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 52 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 28-Mar-2004 08:16 GMT | In reply to Comment 36 (Peter Gordon): >What drug is Mr. Buck smoking? I'm speechless.
I don't know, but he should pass some of that shit! |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 53 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Lamer on 28-Mar-2004 08:29 GMT | Bill is clutching at straws...I fear that MOS/Peg is about to go belly under... :( |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 54 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 28-Mar-2004 08:45 GMT | In reply to Comment 46 (Bill Toner): > DE is just another level of abstraction.
The OS is just a level of abstraction as well, what's your point?
Is AROS an OS, or an Application, for instance? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 55 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous Orc on 28-Mar-2004 09:00 GMT | Pegasos would have been very successful if they'd not touched AmigaOS..or
even bothered with Amiga users |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 56 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by The_Editor on 28-Mar-2004 09:57 GMT | No Flame ...
Its "Belly UP" (old fishing term meaning .... DEAD !!) |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 57 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by skyraker on 28-Mar-2004 10:14 GMT | Are the mushrooms out already? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 58 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Ketzer on 28-Mar-2004 10:27 GMT | In reply to Comment 54 (Fabio Alemagna): Just maybe these terms will finally be defined by a court? But somehow I doubt the judge will touch that topic. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 59 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Lando on 28-Mar-2004 10:33 GMT | The only thing of any real interest in all of this is Bill McEwen's perjury. It will be interesting to see how judge Lasnik responds. When a person is in prison, are they still allowed to be Chairman / C.E.O. of a company ? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 60 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by skyraker on 28-Mar-2004 10:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 59 (Lando): Lando,
Wanna put a small wager on wether Bill Mc gets sent to prison ?
I'm serious, you're always banging on about it, if you're so sure then you might make a few quid. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 61 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 28-Mar-2004 10:37 GMT | In reply to Comment 59 (Lando): Doubt anyone is going to jail in this case.
Open a can of cold beer and enjoy the show.. working smoothly here =) |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 62 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Mar-2004 10:49 GMT | In reply to Comment 59 (Lando): "The only thing of any real interest in all of this is Bill McEwen's perjury. It will be interesting to see how judge Lasnik responds. When a person is in prison, are they still allowed to be Chairman / C.E.O. of a company ?"
Now that Amiga Inc is no longer involved in Amiga computers, what happens to Bill McEwen is of no great interest. However, I think it is very unlikely that he will be charged with perjury.
I hope Amiga Inc get through their present bad patch and make a big success of their Intent-based content player, which is what the company was set up to produce. I fear the Amiga community has been guilty of distracting them from that aim. AI probably should have sold AmigaOS 3.1 three years ago. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 63 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Ketzer on 28-Mar-2004 11:09 GMT | In reply to Comment 59 (Lando): > The only thing of any real interest in all of this is Bill McEwen's perjury.
Personally Id say bb perjury is more obvious and "i think" wont help him much.
McEwen's alleged perjury depends on the wording of the transfer contract to Itec.
> It will be interesting to see how judge Lasnik responds.
Definately.
> When a person is in prison, are they still allowed to be Chairman / C.E.O. of a company ?
Why exactly shouldnt they? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 64 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Ketzer on 28-Mar-2004 11:11 GMT | In reply to Comment 62 (Don Cox): > I hope Amiga Inc get through their present bad patch and make a big success of their Intent-based content player, which is what the company was set up to produce. I fear the Amiga community has been guilty of distracting them from that aim. AI probably should have sold AmigaOS 3.1 three years ago.
I find myself agreeing - only that if they had sold it three years ago the current owner might be bb *shudder*. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 65 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Fabio Alemagna on 28-Mar-2004 11:11 GMT | In reply to Comment 58 (Ketzer): > Just maybe these terms will finally be defined by a court?
I sincerely hope not. Computer scientists have tried to define what is an "operating system" for decades, and each of them gave is personal interpretation, I sincerely hope it won't be a judge who will define it.
> But somehow I doubt
> the judge will touch that topic.
I doubt as well. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 66 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by samface on 28-Mar-2004 11:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 46 (Bill Toner): >DE, as it is, is an application, just like a JVM is, and just as I see the
>Amithlon emulation as being on top of the Linux core.
Well, I agree that it's not an OS on it's own, but it is providing the developer, the user, as well as the application with certain OS related services. I mean, while the AmigaDE in it's current state requires a host OS in order to function, the developer, the user, nor the application making use of the AmigaDE does because the AmigaDE is replacing the services normally provided by the OS. For this reason, I wouldn't call it an application, more like an OS enhancement/addon or a replacement for certain sevices normally provided by the OS.
BTW, would say that MacOSX is an OS or just an application running ontop of the FreeBSD core? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 67 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Mar-2004 11:32 GMT | In reply to Comment 64 (Ketzer): "I find myself agreeing - only that if they had sold it three years ago the current owner might be bb *shudder*."
Or H&P. Or some completely different company. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 68 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by KenH on 28-Mar-2004 11:47 GMT | Bill Buck....a word of advice:
Stop jumping up and dwon on your reputation ;) It's bad enough as it is. Leave it be. Instead of creating business and money, you will lose it. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 69 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Kronos on 28-Mar-2004 11:54 GMT | In reply to Comment 62 (Don Cox): The community is guilty of exactly nothing.
AInc is guilty of being unable to make the DE more than a relabeled intent with minor improvements
(compared to intent 1.x, intent 2 is allready way ahead of DE).
AInc is guilty of being unable to check with TAO that there great plans could actually be done.
AInc is guilty of being unable to supply content interesting enough to get the DE preinstalled
on major HW.
AInc is guilty of being utterly incompetent when it comes to both doing buisness and doing development.
AInc is guilty of trying to use OS4 as last straw when their DE-card-house fell into pieces.
AInc is guilty of being unable to secure that OS4 was done in a way that would have allowed
a timely release. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 70 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Graham_nli on 28-Mar-2004 12:05 GMT | Well it'll be interesting to see what the judge makes of all this crap. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 71 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:07 GMT | #49
Noting Date 3/19/2004.
(Entered: 03/03/2004) |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 72 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:12 GMT | In reply to Comment 25 (Joe): This has already been discussed and you still haven't got a clue. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 73 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:13 GMT | In reply to Comment 33 (Dan): lol |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 74 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 37 (Peter Gordon): I agree. With Buck out of the way I'd even consider getting a Pegasos with MOS. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 75 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:17 GMT | In reply to Comment 55 (Anonymous Orc): Quite likely |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 76 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:19 GMT | In reply to Comment 69 (Kronos): great, so let's see of what Buck is guilty now if you have a grain of objectivity. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 77 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 12:25 GMT | In reply to Comment 69 (Kronos): Truly a good thing that KMOS now runs AmigaOS then isn't it? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 78 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Mar-2004 12:28 GMT | In reply to Comment 69 (Kronos): "AInc is guilty of trying to use OS4 as last straw when their DE-card-house fell into pieces."
Don't you think the heavy pressure on fleecy from the Amiga users influenced his decisions? He always wanted to be the one to lead the Amiga Community into the future.
BTW I think you are confusing two proverbs: A drowning man will clutch at a straw, and The "last straw" broke the camel's back. It could be the same straw if the dead camel was thrown into the sea. ;-)
"AInc is guilty of being unable to secure that OS4 was done in a way that would have allowed a timely release."
That would have involved putting money into the project, which neither AI nor Hyperion could do. As it is, I don't think the time taken is at all unusual. The misleading announcements about release dates seem to be partly deliberate deception and partly lack of experience (or even common sense).
But then if common sense was available in pill form, the Amiga world would be rather different. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 79 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Don Cox on 28-Mar-2004 12:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 70 (Graham_nli): "Well it'll be interesting to see what the judge makes of all this crap."
I'm sure his other cases contain very similar crap. Judges are paid to sort out the rubbish. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 80 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by samface on 28-Mar-2004 12:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 76 (Anonymous): Just ignore Kronos blatant trolling. It's flamebait, nothing more.
/me pauses for a moment to reflect over who I'm actually talking to. :-P |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 81 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Gru on 28-Mar-2004 13:18 GMT | In reply to Comment 80 (samface): Kronos is no more of a troll than you are Samface. At least Kronos seems to have a tighter grip on reality. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 82 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Bodie on 28-Mar-2004 14:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 52 (hooligan/dcs): ROFL |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 83 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Gareth Knight on 28-Mar-2004 14:31 GMT | In reply to Comment 41 (Joe "Floid" Kanowitz): For anyone who is interested the Zico specification, as announced on the October 21st, 2000 indicated the following:
- One AmigaDE friendly host processor (PPC, x86, Arm, SH4, MIPS)
- 64MB+ memory
- Next Generation Matrox graphics card
- Creative EMU10K1 based audio card
- 10 GB+ HD
- CD/DVD
- USB 1.0
- Firewire
- 10/100 Mbps Ethernet
- 56k modem
- Spare PCI slots for expandibility
Anyone confused about Tao Group's Elate (hosted, non-hosted, etc.), which forms the basis of the Amiga DE should refer to their article posted in 2001. Amiga Active magazine is also a good reference point to get an idea of how the environment was understood during the 2002-2002 period. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 84 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by samface on 28-Mar-2004 15:08 GMT | In reply to Comment 81 (Gru): >Kronos is no more of a troll than you are Samface.
I see, so this news item is "trolling" to you? Please tell me the last time Kronos contributed with topical and factual information to the Amiga community.
>At least Kronos seems to have a tighter grip on reality.
That is of course highly subjective and it's only to be expected that I do not agree. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 85 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Bill Toner on 28-Mar-2004 15:30 GMT | In reply to Comment 51 (hammer): > Note that “Media Player” has been included with Windows since version 3.1.
And IE was once "included with" 95... Now it is supposedly some integral and non-removable core OS component. Microsoft is moving to stop calling MP "included with" and become whatever it is they think IE has already become. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 86 of 143 | ANN.lu |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 87 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Framiga on 28-Mar-2004 15:54 GMT | . . . Bill, who?!?
Never heard before. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 88 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Interesting on 28-Mar-2004 16:14 GMT | In reply to Comment 60 (skyraker): >>>Lando,
Wanna put a small wager on wether Bill Mc gets sent to prison ?
I'm serious, you're always banging on about it, if you're so sure then you might make a few quid.<<<
Think you better redo your research of US Law. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 89 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by MIKE on 28-Mar-2004 16:16 GMT | In reply to Comment 84 (samface): The Amiga Community doesn't need any more "topical" and "factual" news sources, it needs coders, why not do something constructive with yourself and learn how to code something, instead of misquoting court documents to make your rants more interesting. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 90 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Interesting on 28-Mar-2004 16:21 GMT | In reply to Comment 70 (Graham_nli): >>>Well it'll be interesting to see what the judge makes of all this crap.<<<
The Judge just might get the feeling of being "used". Like many others who deat with Buck. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 91 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Interesting on 28-Mar-2004 16:25 GMT | In reply to Comment 81 (Gru): >>>>Kronos is no more of a troll than you are Samface. At least Kronos seems to have a tighter grip on reality.<<<
Be nice now!
Remember samface has all the court papers availble for all to see. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 92 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Jupp3 on 28-Mar-2004 18:50 GMT | In reply to Comment 62 (Don Cox): >Now that Amiga Inc is no longer involved in Amiga computers
Do they still get provisions for every AmigaOne (and OS4?) sold? |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 93 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Joe "Floid" Kanowitz on 28-Mar-2004 19:59 GMT | In reply to Comment 66 (samface): >DE, as it is, is an application, just like a JVM is, and just as I see the
>Amithlon emulation as being on top of the Linux core.
What if you wrote an OS that targeted (as in, ran atop) the JVM?
(Hm, italics don't handle multilevel quoting well.)
Well, I agree that it's not an OS on it's own, but it is providing the developer, the user, as well as the application with certain OS related services.
If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, but requires a duck, is it a duck?
(Seriously, I think this is 'unanswerable.' The judge can look for "best fit" for the circumstances of the case, which hinges on issues of representation more than 'reality,' but if he wants to tackle that, he can probably do it without heading down the contestable semantic alley.)
BTW, would say that MacOSX is an OS or just an application running ontop of the FreeBSD core?
Darwin ain't just FreeBSD, so terrible example. It's an "OS" composed of a "distribution" of "components" atop Darwin, which is itself an "OS" composed of a "distribution" of "components," some of which are derivative works of Mach and various *BSD code-snippets. But now we have to define "atop." |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 94 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by hammer on 28-Mar-2004 20:52 GMT | In reply to Comment 85 (Bill Toner): >And IE was once "included with" 95... Now it is supposedly some integral and >non-removable core OS component.
Refer to Windows 2003 Server Enterprise Edition for the default WMP9 setup
or
goto "Control Panel" -> "Add or remove programs" -> "Add/Remove Windows Components" -> declick "Windows Media Player".
or
goto (WinXP SP1 and above) "Set Program Access and Defaults" -> click "Non-Microsoft".
Note that;
"Iexplorer.exe" = Internet Explorer
"explorer.exe" = Explorer shell
The both share mshtml.dll engine i.e. there's nothing wrong in library sharing model. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 95 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by 3seas on 28-Mar-2004 21:06 GMT | In reply to Comment 89 (MIKE): "The Amiga Community doesn't need any more "topical" and "factual" news sources, it needs coders, why not do something constructive with yourself and learn how to code something, instead of misquoting court documents to make your rants more interesting."
Even coders want some assurance that the OS is actually going to be available...
AROS is.... |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 96 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by Anonymous on 28-Mar-2004 21:20 GMT | In reply to Comment 94 (hammer): I believe that what Bill is saying is that Microsoft claimed that internet explorer is an integral part of Windows, when (as you demonstrated) they clearly are not. Bill Buck seems to be trying to imitate Microsoft, as usual. |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 97 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by abcd on 28-Mar-2004 23:38 GMT | In reply to Comment 96 (Anonymous): if history is any indication of the future
then, as always, buck is just another wannabe, again, and again, and again |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 98 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by GregS on 29-Mar-2004 00:28 GMT | In reply to Comment 59 (Lando): Perjury, i not likely at all in the case of Bill Mc's statement.
First the judge has already ruled out another OS besides DE being considered, the status of ownership of IP rights as assets is a mute question with no bearing on the case as such. Perjury only exists in what hgis put before the jury/bench in order to mislead it on issues. Hence, witnesses can say many things which may be proved false without it necessarily being a perjury. (Ie "Do you dye your hair?", "No" she says, but in fact she does -- unless hair colour was at issue it is not a perjury as such nor an attempt to mislead).
Second, the questions were about assets not ownership, in fact, many things can be an asset and possesed without being owned outright. Does Amiga Inc get royalities for use of the software -- it is an an asset precisely because they have delegated ownership. One might sell rights to distribute, change, etc, basically all the rights bar one or two (like the trademark name). Do they perhaps keep the soiurce code on the premises etc etc.
Third, no judge is going to pursue such a thing unless their is a reasonable chance of success. On answers about assets, all very general questions, none actually about the ownership of otherwise there is no such grounds for such belief.
This talk of perjury is just a libel, the evidence does not make it certian that the information is either false or misleading, but the evidence shows very clearly there is no relationshuip to misleading the court on the issues before it.
These latest documents by Thendic, well to put it politly are not very well drafted -- they answer none of Amiga's submission, make no legal points that I can make out, they are IMHO a joke. The small possibly inconsistency of Bill Mc's answers to one question, is all. Small Possible Inconsistencies do not a perjury make.
Greg Schofield |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 99 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by T1k on 29-Mar-2004 01:14 GMT | I'm no lawyer, and I don't pretend I know anything about what goes on in a court. However, when reading the Garry Hare interview it strikes me as very strange to get to read something like this:
"We'd captured quite a few public posts and I have to admit that arguments from both sides shaped our thinking. But a few people stood out. In response to "Tatu", Mr. Buck wrote his, "What will happen next?" post. I sent it to the attorneys and asked, how this? Have you ever seen lawyers dance?"
and
"Bill Evans and Don Cox. Both these guys carry through with their arguments. Very interesting and well reasoned. The responses they elicit are found throughout both Amiga's Motions."
I mean...come on, basing a case in court on chatlogs and/or emails from the internet? Am I the only one that think it's...weird? I thought stuff like this was made out of a Contract, and the breach thereof (if there was any).
I'm getting that feeling like when you're in a pub and some guy pushes you and then says that you were the one that started it... |
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Amiga vs Thendic Update: Genesi fights back! : Comment 100 of 143 | ANN.lu |
Posted by gary_c on 29-Mar-2004 01:54 GMT | In reply to Comment 98 (GregS): Perjury, i not likely at all in the case of Bill Mc's statement.
I didn't realize you were a lawyer as well as an Amiga computing fan. The personal profile you posted at moobunny fails to mention this, out of modesty, I suppose. ;-) (Just kidding, but it's amazing to me how we get all these layman's analyses of the case, when really nobody knows squat.)
-- gary_c |
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