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[News] Pegasos sales restartingANN.lu
Posted on 28-Jan-2004 20:14 GMT by Nate Downes156 comments
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That's right, online sales are returning early! If you're looking for that PegasosII, the wait is over! PegasosPPC.com is back and ready to take your order.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 101 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Don Cox on 30-Jan-2004 14:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 94 (takemehomegrandma):
"Anyway, my point was (if you missed that) that different areas of usage calls for different products, and all products are simply not suitable to all market segments only because they have the "highest numbers". There is no reason for a person who mainly uses his computer to check mail and surf the web once in a while to upgrade his old 1GHz system to a 3GHz+ with a *big humming fan*. In fact, since that person old computer probably has a big humming fan aswell (thanks to its age), the customer might actually want a brand new 1GHz system instead that's smaller, cooler and won't need a noise producing fan."

So he goes around to his local PC shop and buys one.

The only people who will buy PPC-based or other strange computers are those who are _interested_ in computers. Such people want to see a good reason why they should buy your computer. It needs to be something very special. Not just slightly sub-standard, "good enough for email", etc.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 102 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Jan-2004 16:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (Anonymous):
>Note that you are chosing (quite deliberately) the MOST expensive eMac. I thought we were to compare with a FULL eMac. :)I agree it's a bad price when the difference is only 128MB Ram, DVD writecapabilities and 40GB more HD space for a whopping 300EUR (base eMac is899EUR here). Still, the Pegasos is using a more recent version of G4(refer to the step from Athlon Throughbred to Barton), so they are not100% comparable. You can try to configure a system to the specs of eMacat pegasos-de.de - it cannot compete with the Dollar price but in EURthey might be more or less on par.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 103 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 30-Jan-2004 17:04 GMT
In reply to Comment 100 (Anonymous):
>I am just pointing out that it IS expensive and it IS under powered and it IS>old technology compared with what is available now. To try to claim otherwise>is, quite frankly, absurd. Also it IS a dual CPU board without dual-CPU. Why not use 2 low power G4 thatproduce only as much heat as 1 normal G4? :-)
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 104 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 31-Jan-2004 06:08 GMT
In reply to Comment 78 (Matt Parsons):
>accordign to Samface AmigaONEs are not out yet...
>
>To everyone else they are :-)

Not everyone. Fleecy also said in one of his Q&A sessions that the AmigaOne isn't out yet (in a response to a question about coupon refunds as far as I remember.)
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 105 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 31-Jan-2004 06:40 GMT
In reply to Comment 98 (Anonymous):
>Note that you are chosing (quite deliberately) the MOST expensive eMac.

And you're choosing (quite deliberately) the cheapest.

Just because it has a 1Ghz G4 doesn't make it a good comparison for a PegII. Add on to that $799 the costs of bringing it up to Pegasos II spec (adding DDR memory, adding Gigabit ethernet, adding S/PDIF, adding IRDA, replacing crappy integrated video with an AGP slot). Then come back and claim Pegasos is more expensive than Apple.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 106 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 08:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 96 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Yes, it was a partial quote, but not taken out of it's context. Furthermore, I provided a link for reference. Who would provide a link for reference if the intention was to take it out of it's context?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 107 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 08:34 GMT
In reply to Comment 97 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I stated that the Earlybird is a prerelease that was made on Eyetech's own intitiative rather than in cooperation with Amiga Inc., which is far from reasonable to use as an argument to demand from Amiga Inc. that they honor the $50/$100 rebate coupons. Amiga Inc.'s response is that they will honor the coupons once the complete AmigaOne system *with* AmigaOS4 is available (as the AmigaOne was supposed to be released to begin with).

It's this kind of reasoning that makes it so platently obvious that you are prepared to use any argument to slander off at Amiga Inc. rather than actually achieve anything constructive. Are you a Club Amiga member or a Party Pack owner? Then drop it already, troll.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 108 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Anonymous on 31-Jan-2004 09:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (samface):
". Are you a Club Amiga member or a Party Pack owner?"

Since you ask, yes I am.

I bought so that I coudl get $50 off an AmigaOne (you see, SpamFacem the coupon was to be used against the purchase of an AmigaOne AND/OR AmigaON4 - which everyone except you and Fleecy, it seems, understand).

I am still waiting for my $50 coupon so I can buy an AmigaOne and I am still waiting for my t-shirt.

Face facts, Spammy - your heros at AInc lied (many many times) on this (and most other things, when it comes down to it).
Plus they still refuse to this day to refund the coupon scam fee, despite me writing to them many times requesting a refund on the grounds that they have consistently failed to deliver.

But then, this is well-known, and it seems that you are the only idiot blindly defending their illegal actions - fortunately most people can see through your spin and realise the truth of the matter. And that's what counts.

carry on with your spin and lies, SpamFace. It won't make a jot of difference to the facts.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 109 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Lando on 31-Jan-2004 09:58 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (samface):
>Amiga Inc.'s response is that they will honor the coupons once the complete
>AmigaOne system *with* AmigaOS4

That wasn't the deal. Read the coupon offer page. When I paid my $50 I was promised a discount off EITHER an A1 OR OS4. Nobody who has so far bought an A1 received their discount. Not one single person. Unless you know different? If not then even you can't deny that Amiga Inc lied, can you?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 110 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 108 (Anonymous):
>". Are you a Club Amiga member or a Party Pack owner?"
>
>Since you ask, yes I am.

Yes I asked, but did I ask *you*? BTW, who are you? I think they will have serious problems with finding "anonymous" among their registered CAM members and Party Pack owners...

>I bought so that I coudl get $50 off an AmigaOne (you see, SpamFacem the
>coupon was to be used against the purchase of an AmigaOne AND/OR AmigaON4 -
>which everyone except you and Fleecy, it seems, understand).

Wait a minute, nobody said that it wouldn't be a rebate for either an AmigaOne or AmigaOS4. However, that doesn't change the fact that Eyetech has made a prerelease of the AmigaOne that was NOT planned at the time of when Amiga Inc. made that offer. You see, the AmigaOne was never intended to be sold without AmigaOS4, as in the AmigaOS4 would be a part of the AmigaOne purchase. The reason for why they said that it would be for either an AmigaOne or AmigaOS4 is because those who want AmigaOS4 for their PPC accelerated Amiga1200/4000 would be able to choose a rebate for the Amiga1200/4000 version of AmigaOS4. Please try beeing a bit more reasonable.

>I am still waiting for my $50 coupon so I can buy an AmigaOne and I am still
>waiting for my t-shirt.

Just like the AmigaOne Earlybird owners are still waiting for AmigaOS4. It's unfortunate, but still a reality that we have to accept. I'm quite sure everyone involved are doing what they can to solve these matters as soon as possible rather than doing this on purpose just to make our lives miserable.

>Face facts, Spammy - your heros at AInc lied (many many times) on this (and
>most other things, when it comes down to it).

Do you always interpret it as a promise when someone tells you her/his expectations? I mean, is the wether forecast by a meteorologist a promise too? Is the meteorologist "lying" everytime the forecast doesn't come true? Well, everyone is entitled to their own point of view...

>Plus they still refuse to this day to refund the coupon scam fee, despite me
>writing to them many times requesting a refund on the grounds that they have
>consistently failed to deliver.

From http://amigaworld.net/modules/fleecymoss/index.php?cat_id=10:

"We have had a lot of issues with creating a valid solution for the 'vouchers', mainly in terms of validation and acceptance by dealers. Given that an AmigaOne is a certified piece of hardware that comes with an AmigaOS4.0 OEM CD bundle and that the CSPPC AmigaOS4.0 product is a shrinkwrap, AmigaOS4.0 is the common factor and so we are considering either placing the voucher within the AmigaOS product package itself (perhaps as part of the registration card) or using the unique serial number of each AmigaOS4.0 instance via a web interface. This would also work with those who have purchased multiple rebate products because they have to have an AmiPASS and so we can apply their multiple rebates against a single purchase. The entire scheme will be published before AmigaOS4.0 is released and we will validate the rebate database by emailing everyone to make sure all the details are correct. I urge anyone who believes they have a rebate to check out their AmiPASS account and ensure the details are correct."

This is a rather common question which is therefore alot easier to respond to in public rather than writing hundreds, maybe even thousands of individual replies to e-mails.

>But then, this is well-known, and it seems that you are the only idiot blindly
>defending their illegal actions - fortunately most people can see through your
>spin and realise the truth of the matter. And that's what counts.

I'm not defending anything, I'm trying to sort out a few misconceptions. If you want to attack someone, atleast do it for the right reasons.

>carry on with your spin and lies, SpamFace. It won't make a jot of difference
>to the facts.

Lies? You're free to prove me wrong anytime, mr Anonymous.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 111 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 11:12 GMT
In reply to Comment 107 (samface):
It's this kind of reasoning that makes it so platently obvious that you are prepared to use any argument to slander off at Amiga Inc. rather than actually achieve anything constructive. Are you a Club Amiga member or a Party Pack owner? Then drop it already, troll.
--

Excuse me!? I just confirmed that you DID use that kind of reasoning...
In case you didn't get it I dfdn't say ANYTHING about Amiga Inc... You *really*
need to get some English lessons dude!
That comment was a reply to this:
"Please stop twisting my words. No, you're not just taking my words out of it's context, you are actually changing my words now."

And I *was* a Party Pack owner... I sold it.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 112 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 11:19 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>Excuse me!? I just confirmed that you DID use that kind of reasoning...

What part of comment #106 did you not understand? No, you confirmed nothing and I made it clear that I do NOT take things out of it's context and even provide links when writing quotes. If you would have used the same reasoning as me, you would have used the exact same wording as me in quotes and provided a link for reference. There is a big difference and you would have to be a complete illiterate to not see it.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 113 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 11:28 GMT
In reply to Comment 111 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I will NOT tolerate your words again, Sammy... I am PERFECTLY entitled to have
an opinion on these matters... I was NOT an outsider who suddently thought that
flaming Amiga Inc is cool...
I wasn't always a MorphOS guy. I believed McEwen. I kept listening to him all
the time, I payed for his partypack... I *repeatably* tried to become a
BetaTester for Amiga Inc.'s inhouse OS4 which of course never happened. That
was NOT for my own benefit... When I betatest something I do a serious job and
don't just get the product and be happy like MANY others did in the past...
You can ask Hyperion about that... Of course all that stopped with the LIES
about the November 2001 release... They were LIES, *not* inaccuracies...
PLAIN lies...

Now, about you Samface... As I'm not entitled to say anything about Amiga Inc
(in your mind), were you ever interested in MorphOS? I guessed not... So, how
can YOU be entitled to slander off MorphOS at any chance? (I must admit that you
stopped now but you did use to do that ALL the time...)
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 114 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 11:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 112 (samface):
And you must be TOTALLY illiterate as I did not talk about taking things out
of context... I talked about saying things that suited you in one context
and cancel them in another...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 115 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 11:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 109 (Lando):
From comment #110:

"Eyetech has made a prerelease of the AmigaOne that was NOT planned at the time of when Amiga Inc. made that offer. You see, the AmigaOne was never intended to be sold without AmigaOS4, as in the AmigaOS4 would be a part of the AmigaOne purchase. The reason for why they said that it would be for either an AmigaOne or AmigaOS4 is because those who want AmigaOS4 for their PPC accelerated Amiga1200/4000 would be able to choose a rebate for the Amiga1200/4000 version of AmigaOS4. Please try beeing a bit more reasonable."
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 116 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 11:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Samface... I'm one of the last people that keep bothering with you... Do you
know why? Because unlike others, I HONESTLY don't believe that you're a
retard... Don't make me change my mind...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 117 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 11:38 GMT
In reply to Comment 114 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
..and what exactly would it be that I have "canceled"?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 118 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 12:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 113 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>So, how can YOU be entitled to slander off MorphOS at any chance? (I must >admit that you stopped now but you did use to do that ALL the time...)

I got pissed at the former Phase5 (bPlan) who obviously had learned NOTHING from the days of the Phase5 vs Haage&Partner war. Do you realize where we would have been today if bPlan would have decided to cooperate instead of these pathetic attempts at trying to regain some form of momentum in the Amiga market through Genesi and BBRV? Do you realize how much friendlier the Amiga community would have been? Do you realize how much further we would have come in terms of technological advancements? I'd say I had a pretty good reason to be pissed, and I still am. I don't care what the price for cooperation was, *everything* is better than this.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 119 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 12:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 118 (samface):
Once again you look at that case single sided... You do not know why bPlan
declined... It wasn't because they are stupid... They would be selling MorphOS
with the Amiga name for 3 years already. Amiga's "offer" was unreasonable.
They wanted total control over the OS and it's releases... Eg. not only they
wanted CyberGraphiX to be replaced by Picasso96, but the OS wouldn't be released
until that port was ready... They also wanted the MorphOS modules on a WarpOS
kind of thing which wasn't possible... Stuff like that pissed bPlan off and made
them team up with Thendic France.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 120 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 12:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
I'll ask a question... Would you give the work and money of many years to
another company so easily?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 121 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 31-Jan-2004 12:32 GMT
Im in this with Alkis. The demands were just too high up in the skies, which is of course directly related to the fact that AInc.'s business-skills are:

z e r o


If an agreement could have been found, we would be calling MorphOS AmigaOS4 and been using it for ages, and everybody would be happy. But no, they had to fuck up that thing aswell, among others.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 122 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 12:53 GMT
In reply to Comment 119 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
You should know by now that I'm a strong believer of reasoning. I'm convinced that all of those issues could have been worked out if they simply put their politics aside and went for the best solution out of a practical and technical point of view. However, I think it was because *neither* Haage&Partner and bPlan could put their politics aside that it was finally up to Hyperion, who wasn't (not back then, atleast) on anyone's "side". WarpUP applications will be supported in AmigaOS4 but the OS will not be based on it, Picasso96 is in the process of beeing ported to PPC, all in all, we have kind of like a compromise of those demands from Haage&partner and bPlan, giving us the most efficient solution based on the means available.

However, the price is a much longer wait for the product release and a split in the market due to Genesi's alternative. The situation would have probably been worse if Haage&Partner's own alternative Amithlon/AmigaOSXL wasn't discontinued. I'm not saying any of these mentioned products are bad in itself, I'm just saying that unity may have been our *only* way out and that it may all be down the drain now (yes, everything) unless something really drastic happens.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 123 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 13:06 GMT
In reply to Comment 120 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>Would you give the work and money of many years to
>another company so easily?

Who said anything about *giving* anything away? Are you saying that Amiga Inc. demanded that bPlan should simply give MorphOS to them for free? Of course they shouldn't, all I'm saying is that they could have negotiated a very good deal if they just wanted to. Hyperion managed this despite not beeing able to deliver until much later, so why wouldn't bPlan be able to do the same?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 124 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 13:29 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (samface):
Ehm, look. They lost way too much time by trying to deal with Amiga Inc...
They gave up. Fleecy kept digging his nose where he should not... You have
already heard the story on ann, McEwen claiming one deal, Fleecy another...
To get the facts right, everybody lost time dealing with Amiga Inc...
bPlan, H&P etc...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 125 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 14:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
So, instead they decided to divide the market and community even further, like twisting a knife into the Amiga corpse, in hopes of achieving what? I mean, that kind of reasoning is like choosing to jump straight off the cliff because taking the stairs would be a strain and a waste of time.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 126 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 31-Jan-2004 14:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 124 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
BTW, I'd rather say everyone but bPlan and Haage&Partner managed to get along just fine.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 127 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 15:00 GMT
In reply to Comment 126 (samface):
Who? Hyperion? They got the OS and started developing it as they should...
Without Amiga Inc. messing with the development. That's what could and SHOULD
be done with MorphOS but Amiga Inc wanted to interfere. Who else?
On the AmigaOS front, NOBODY else is on development ties with Amiga Inc...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 128 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 31-Jan-2004 15:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 125 (samface):
Look... They had started developing an OS. It advanced. The agreement with AInc.
failed. There were 2 options left: 1) Stop. 2) Keep going on their own.
They choose option 2. ANYONE would have done the same thing. They paid A LOT of
money and spent A HELL of a lot of time to be able to just stop.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 129 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by hooligan/dcs on 31-Jan-2004 15:35 GMT
In reply to Comment 123 (samface):
>Who said anything about *giving* anything away? Are you saying that Amiga Inc. demanded that bPlan should simply give MorphOS to them for free? Of course they shouldn't, all I'm saying is that they could have negotiated a very good deal if they just wanted to.

If I offer a hundred bucks for your Porsche, and you decline, which one do you think is more out of his mind, you or I?

>Hyperion managed this despite not beeing able to deliver until much later, so why wouldn't bPlan be able to do the same?

Hardly surprising. Using the Porsche metaphora again, "the car's insurance and use of gasoline was too much for my budget, so I HAD to sell it away for a very cheap price."

The matter of the fact is, that A Inc. made a wrong decision and things slowed down (we can say almost stalled, as OS4 isn't still here). We can only speculate who of them, but I'd narrow it to two: McEwen and Moss. Take a pick.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 130 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Feb-2004 11:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 129 (hooligan/dcs):
I would respect your point of view if it wasn't for one little detail, what makes you think Amiga Inc. would be so desperate to continue the classic AmigaOS product line? I mean, didn't they even plan to drop the entire thing due to the lack of profitability vs the resources it would take to get it accomplished? They sure did and would have sticked to that decission if it wasn't for these initiatives from third parties. In other words; it simply doesn't make sense that Hyperion only got a good deal with Amiga Inc. because Amiga Inc. would be desperate. I mean, how desperate can someone get for such small revenue, or do you seriously believe Amiga Inc. will make millions from the license to AmigaOS4, sold to maybe a few thousand Amiga fanatics? Open your eyes, AmigaOS4 is more worth as PR for Amiga Inc. rather than revenue from the license.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 131 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Feb-2004 11:43 GMT
In reply to Comment 128 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>1) Stop.

Surely that was no option that Amiga Inc. "offered", now was it?

Furthermore, you missed the third option; don't give up negotiating. I mean, even if Amiga Inc. was unreasonable at that time, if bPlan would have atleast remained open for negotiations, they would have sooner or later been able to negotiate the same terms as Hyperion got about two years ago, right?

So, even when I try to looking at it from your point of view, it all boils down to bPlan's inability to cooperate rather than Amiga Inc.'s. That makes this not just one point of view, but a matter of perfectly objective reasoning. Though, you're free to point out the flaw in my reasoning if you can.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 132 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Feb-2004 12:47 GMT
In reply to Comment 127 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>Who? Hyperion?

Hyperion, Eyetech, the Picasso96 Team, Cloanto, Elbox, DCE, Haage&Partner, Bernd Meyer (Amithlon), Martin Blom (AHI), etc. Basicly every major key player in the Amiga market was *at that time* cooperating with Amiga Inc. in one way or another. Amiga Inc. spent their first 9 months in business on doing nothing but negotiating for the sake of unity. It's just a sad fact that one of the negotiating partners thought they had it all, both OS and hardware, and therefore expected everyone else to give in to their every demands. bPlan officials even said it in public; the others had nothing to offer besides "the name". In other words, unity was not very high on bPlan's priority list. It was more important for them to remain in control of what they that was rightfully theirs rather than trying to rebuild the Amiga as a market and community again.

My response is; fine, let them have it their way. However, I find it highly offensive when they call themselves a part of the Amiga market and community. I will laugh the day the Amiga market is able to provide the community with what they thought we couldn't manage without. In the mean time, these people continue to show their inability to cooperate with their own chipset providers and make highöy questionable statements in public. All they got to show is complience with Motorola's and IBM's criterias for supported hardware solutions, which is just empty PR according to BBRV's own reasoning in response to Amiga Inc.'s distribution deal with Microsoft.

>They got the OS and started developing it as they should...

Yes, since nobody else did...

>Without Amiga Inc. messing with the development.

That depends on how you define "messing", but atleast I can tell you that the AmigaOS4.0 feature set has been made in collaboration with Amiga Inc. and it would be incorrect to claim that Amiga Inc. wouldn't have a say in this.

>That's what could and SHOULD be done with MorphOS but Amiga Inc wanted to
>interfere.

By your own reasoning, why should Amiga Inc. simply give away the IP that cost them close to $5 million to another company and let them decide everything about the products associated with it? Not very reasonable, now is it?

>Who else? On the AmigaOS front, NOBODY else is on development ties
>with Amiga Inc...

And who do we got to thank for that?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 133 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 01-Feb-2004 15:31 GMT
In reply to Comment 132 (samface):
Ehm... Remove H&P, DCE, Martin Blom, Bernie (Amiga Inc were the ones
who told him to coop with H&P... A decision that fucked his product),
Elbox (How exactly do they cooperate wih Amiga Inc?)...

...

Messing with Development = Adding features while the feature set
should be locked, announcing stuff they have nothing to do with etc...
They did none of these with Hyperion, thank god.

...

Nobody said that they should give away their IP. When a product is in
late development, you cannot do the drastic changes Amiga Inc wanted.
They also asked for set product releases controlled by them and
breaking bPlan into a software and hardware company.
Which company would accept that?

--

Now... Who should I thank for that? Bill and Fleecy. ANYTHING else
is purely bullshit...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 134 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Feb-2004 16:25 GMT
In reply to Comment 133 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>Ehm... Remove H&P, DCE, Martin Blom, Bernie (Amiga Inc were the ones
>who told him to coop with H&P...

What part of *at that time* did you not understand?

>A decision that fucked his product)

Now let's not be too hasty on passing judgement, not even Bernie put the blame on Amiga Inc. (even if he suggested that Amiga Inc. could have done more).

>Elbox (How exactly do they cooperate wih Amiga Inc?)...

They were an official partner *at that time*.

>Messing with Development = Adding features while the feature set
>should be locked,

In that case, MorphOS should have never moved from the alpha/beta state of only running on A1200/4000 and would still be dependant on the original workbench.

>announcing stuff they have nothing to do with etc...

Huh? Of course they have everything to do with what their $5 million IP is associated with.

>They did none of these with Hyperion, thank god.

Yes they did, Hyperion would have not been selected if they were not capable of delivering certain features and the license only covers making AmigaOS4.0 for PPC.

>Nobody said that they should give away their IP. When a product is in
>late development, you cannot do the drastic changes Amiga Inc wanted.

Late development? They had a PPC OS kernel (Quark) and a 68k emulator that launched the original AmigaOS3.x ontop of the emulator. The emulator didn't even support JIT. It was in an early alpha/beta stage that was far from stable. You were saying?

>They also asked for set product releases controlled by them and
>breaking bPlan into a software and hardware company.
>Which company would accept that?

Well, why should they have let bPlan have some form of hardware and OS monopoly rather than compete on equal grounds with other Amiga hardware manufacturers such as Eyetech, DCE and Elbox? Of course it makes sense to ask bPlan to seperate the OS development from the hardware development.

>Now... Who should I thank for that? Bill and Fleecy. ANYTHING else
>is purely bullshit...

I could be throwing mud at individuals such as Bill Buck and Ralph Schmidt too, but that would just degrade myself to your level...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 135 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 01-Feb-2004 18:10 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (samface):
Late development? They had a PPC OS kernel (Quark) and a 68k emulator that launched the original AmigaOS3.x ontop of the emulator. The emulator didn't even support JIT. It was in an early alpha/beta stage that was far from stable. You were saying?
--

Wrong... The JIT Engine was in development but not integrated, ie it worked
as an external program. I did demostrate that JIT engine at the AmiGathering4
Amiga meeting in Thessaloniki. There were already lot's (nope... LOT'S) of
PPC native modules... Only Workbench and some other stuff were needed and it
WAS stable as I used it on the BPPC at that time with a nice uptime of a week
if I didn't use the G-Rex.
Sam, you really have no clue about what the status of MorphOS was at that time.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 136 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 01-Feb-2004 18:11 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (samface):
Throw as much mud as you can throw, IF they are based on facts. That
Bill and Fleecy have NO business skills IS a fact...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 137 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 01-Feb-2004 18:15 GMT
In reply to Comment 134 (samface):
Late development? They had a PPC OS kernel (Quark) and a 68k emulator that launched the original AmigaOS3.x ontop of the emulator. The emulator didn't even support JIT. It was in an early alpha/beta stage that was far from stable. You were saying?
--

Oh, to be more precise.
What you describe was version 0.1.
0.4 was out and already old at the time we are talking about and I had several
MUCH newer versions.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 138 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 01-Feb-2004 18:26 GMT
In reply to Comment 137 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
My point remains; MorphOS was atleast a year (maybe more) of development from reaching the point of beeing labeled MorphOS 1.0 and the argument that it would be too late for making changes to the planned features for the final release is rather weak, IMO.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 139 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 01-Feb-2004 19:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (samface):
I don't think that it was a weak arguement... Changes included
dropping the already working and 100% tested CyberGraphiX and
wait for a P96 port, adding some WOS stuff to the API etc...
It also meant that they should develop it for all supported
platforms at once... This was A MADNESS according to EVERYBODY...
They would have to wait for the Escena AmigaOne to be ready,
port the OS there and THEN release the product even while it
already worked on 2 other platforms...
These things were impossible. Totally impossible.
Agreeing would be the end of bPlan, they would have Amiga Inc.'s
fate...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 140 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 01-Feb-2004 19:46 GMT
In reply to Comment 138 (samface):
Of course it needed a year to reach 1.0 level, they needed to make a
desktop and other user stuff (like prefs) and fill some other gaps.
If an Amiga Workbench desktop was to be used, it would need a week
to have a ready to sell product as it was already tested.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 141 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Feb-2004 07:18 GMT
In reply to Comment 140 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>If an Amiga Workbench desktop was to be used, it would need a week
>to have a ready to sell product as it was already tested.

Finally you are starting to see something here. Amiga had quite alot more to offer than just "the name", they offered bPlan the AmigaOS3.x sources, which would have cut down on the development effort by quite alot. In return, Amiga Inc. wanted them to implement a few features, which would have probably taken alot less time and effort to implement than an entire Workbench replacement (for how long have they been working on ambient again?).

Instead, they chose to NOT be able to release their product until they have replaced the entire original AmigaOS, which AFAIK delayed the release of MorphOS 1.0 by quite alot. So, your argument that Amiga Inc.'s offer would delay the release is also quite weak.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 142 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Feb-2004 08:02 GMT
In reply to Comment 139 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
>I don't think that it was a weak arguement... Changes included
>dropping the already working and 100% tested CyberGraphiX and
>wait for a P96 port, adding some WOS stuff to the API etc...

Not drop CGX, just support P96 as well. Why would that be such problem?

Of course they didn't want to drop WarpUP support since there was so many WarpUP applications as well as Amiga developers developing for WarpUP. These are matters of supporting the already existing AmigaPPC software and community, users as well as developers. Due to Phase5's declaration of insolvency, the PowerUP was dead, and before MorphOS, WarpUP was the AmigaPPC community's only way forwards, now they should just drop it in favor yet another PPC API?

>It also meant that they should develop it for all supported
>platforms at once...

Of course. bPlan was not the only hardware manufacturer in the Amiga community and it's only fair to atleast give the other's a chance to compete on equal grounds. I mean, this was the idea by these negotiations, wasn't it?

And no, they wouldn't have had to wait for Escena's AmigaOne. This product would have been dropped regardless of the outcome of these negotiations.

>This was A MADNESS according to EVERYBODY...

Madness? I would call it THE ONLY way to cooperate on a level that would give all partners involved an equal opportunity to survive in symbios with each other. bPlan's terms would have given them an exclusive right to both the OS and hardware, ie the Amiga platform would have become an intellectual property of bPlan with "the name" as the only exception. What would have happened to the rest of the Amiga market? Do you realize how many more people that there are today that would have hated Amiga Inc. for turning their back on them?

>They would have to wait for the Escena AmigaOne to be ready,

Nope.

>port the OS there and THEN release the product even while it
>already worked on 2 other platforms...

The OS and the different hardware options would have been released at about the same time.

>These things were impossible. Totally impossible.

Impossible for bPlan to not own both the hardware and OS and remain in full control of the entire platform, making it impossible for anyone else to survive in the Amiga market? I'm sorry, but I don't think we share the same view of what was possible or not.

>Agreeing would be the end of bPlan, they would have Amiga Inc.'s
>fate...

They would have to compete on equal grounds as the rest of the Amiga market and community, while their fate would be decided by the quality of their products.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 143 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by a user on 02-Feb-2004 10:16 GMT
In reply to Comment 142 (samface):
>Of course. bPlan was not the only hardware manufacturer in the Amiga community >and it's only fair to atleast give the other's a chance to compete on equal >grounds. I mean, this was the idea by these negotiations, wasn't it?

Hmm, now that is nothing like what happened in the end is it?
It is not like there is a monopoly beween Amiga OS and one hardware vender at all. There are now so many options so it benefits the users.
Imagine if there was only one company in charge of the hardware/software...you would end up paying twice what you needed to ...we wouldn't want that to happen.
Thank god for AI and their "legal" advisor.
Us users are really well off now...tick tick tick
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 144 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Feb-2004 11:44 GMT
In reply to Comment 143 (a user):
The idea was to have support for both the Pegasos and the AmigaOne. Perhaps this statement by Fleecy Moss on the AmigaOne mailinglist will help you get a perspective on things:

"We announced the zico open specification - anyone can create a product to that specification. We then approached Eyetech and asked if they would create a zico based product, and licence the AmigaOne name for that product. We also offered this to bPlan. Licencing the name costs, but in return, it shows both the commitment of the company and it also matches to the internal Amiga resources. We only have enough resources currently to work with two licencees, Eyetech and bPlan (if they ever reply). As we sell more and the market grows, we should be able to support more products. It isn't necessary but it does give the customer a degree of confidence."
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 145 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Feb-2004 11:56 GMT
In reply to Comment 144 (samface):
BTW, that statement by Fleecy Moss on the AmigaOne mailinglist was from April, 2001.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 146 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 02-Feb-2004 12:17 GMT
In reply to Comment 142 (samface):
Of course they didn't want to drop WarpUP support since there was so many WarpUP applications as well as Amiga developers developing for WarpUP. These are matters of supporting the already existing AmigaPPC software and community, users as well as developers. Due to Phase5's declaration of insolvency, the PowerUP was dead, and before MorphOS, WarpUP was the AmigaPPC community's only way forwards, now they should just drop it in favor yet another PPC API?
--

WarpOS apps were already supported. They talked about WarpOS like additions
to the OS itself. There was no need for another PPC API... PPC MorphOS applications work no different than a 68k 3.1 application, minus the tons of
expansions, like AmigaOS4. There wasn't and still isn't any need for WOS/PUP
stuff in the API.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 147 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Feb-2004 12:39 GMT
In reply to Comment 146 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Well, I guess they got so desperate (?) that they dropped this condition when negotiating with Hyperion, right?

Seriously, you will have a hard time convincing me that any, and I mean any, terms offered by Amiga Inc. was not negotiatable and that Amiga Inc. wouldn't listen to reason. If it's true that Amiga Inc. made such suggestions about WarpUP support, it was probably a demand from Haage&Partner, and we all know that they wouldn't get much of their demands satisfied in the end anyway, now did they?
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 148 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 02-Feb-2004 13:05 GMT
In reply to Comment 147 (samface):
Indeed they WERE stuff H&P requested. H&P was not innocent in that story...
But as Jurgen Haage, the P96 team and others said... While Amiga Inc were
barking about their "inhouse OS4", nobody was told what to do... These are facts
you cannot argue, it's not as if stuff from outside fucked this up, it WAS
Amiga Inc. and namely 2 things they liked to do: 1) Listen to their friends
(H&P... not friends anymore). 2) Use Fleecy as a project manager who in turn
didn't do absolutely NOTHING to get things going... IMHO, H&P COULD handle the
OS, with proper project managment...
Hyperion were totally right when they said that they had to get it because
nobody would do it...
bPlan: Out cause of Amiga Inc politics.
H&P: Fucked by nice project management.
They were the only ones left.
What I fail to believe is that they didn't want the OS from the beginning
but it doesn't really matter now, they have it.
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 149 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by Alkis Tsapanidis on 02-Feb-2004 13:07 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Add "and themselves" in the "H&P: fucked by" part...
Pegasos sales restarting : Comment 150 of 156ANN.lu
Posted by samface on 02-Feb-2004 13:41 GMT
In reply to Comment 148 (Alkis Tsapanidis):
Why would they put one partner on doing what another negotiating partner had already accomplished?

Alkis, they didn't do nothing, they were trying to unite the Amiga market by letting everyone have their say and then try to find a path somewhere in between that everyone could agree to. They were naive, yes. But it was definitly worth a try.

The idea was to make use of what bPlan had already accomplished (MorphOS), put H&P on porting 68k modules to PPC, the Picasso96 team on 2D graphics, Hyperion on making 3D support, Martin Blom (AHI) on sound support, etc. Do you realize where we would have been today if this would have become true? Compare that what we have today.

It was 9 months of negotiations and it all was thrown away by bPlan like a dirty rug...
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